Messages

31

Development Log / Re: Dev Log #25: Game Economy Changes

« on: February 02, 2014, 03:42:26 am »

The whole joy I derive from RPGs is the prospect that my character gets better; over time he has more disposable wealth, he finds a steady way of making income, it becomes easier to carry goods to and fro (perhaps by travelling with companions or even having a car like in Fallout 2), and of course his overall skills increase. What I observe is the focus in this game is not to make this game about getting better but about constantly making rough choices so that you always feel like you just have enough to make it in the next area. But to me its anti-fun...the greatest part of every game I've played was when you finally get a great spell, an amazing weapon, a new car (Fallout 2), or steal an incredibly expensive item and end up with lots of money.  Yes, in these moments the game feels unbalanced. That is part of the fun.

The point of a RPG isn't to get to a point where the games stops being challenging. When that happens its a flaw of the game.
Even Bethesda realizes this and tried to solve this with a very poor level scaling attempt.
A good RPG should be challenging all the way through. If the game becomes too easy, it becomes boring to me.
Blackguards and Expedition Conquistador made a game that is challenging from the beginning to the end. FTL, even if is not a RPG, did this too. That happened in Fallout 2 because you could grind those random encounters.
And there is something odd in getting wealthy in a post-apocalyptic  world just through selling common items and doing some mercenary quests.

There are supposed to be great parts to the game where you really feel more powerful or capable in some way, but it seems like your gaming philosophy is to repress this as much as possible.  The game economy is not supposed to be perfectly balanced; people should be able to get rich because there is joy in getting rich...but with your system you have to probably wait days before you are able to sell the requisite items...I just don't understand where the fun is in this.

And thank Styg for that! I want my experience of Underrail to be fun and challenging through the whole thing. Not just the beginning.

Maybe it gets better as I'm just at the start of the game, but I'm already frustrated because I don't even know if its worth purchasing traps for collecting cave hoppers anymore, because the guy who sells them only wants to buy 7 units of cave fungi or flowers, meaning I can't really sell my cave hoppers to anyone unless I have the patience to wait an hour for him to hopefully want something besides flowers. And even then he'd probably only want 5 when I have 15 cages. Its just maddening to be honest...when I look at the inventory screens of every other trader I know I'm basically going to be severely crippled in my cash flow and most of my scavenging fun will be useless as no one really wants to buy anything anymore.

Wow, wait... what? You are catching cave hoppers for a living? WHY? It sounds like a slow boring inefficient way of making money.
Why not just play through the quests and sell what you find while exploring. Those items like armors and firearms sell really much better.

So I guess I'll be dropping the game, but I wish you all the best in the release.

Good bye.

Now go play Fallout 1 so you can stop referencing the lesser sequel.

32

Development Log / Re: Dev Log #27: Version 0.1.10.0 released

« on: February 02, 2014, 03:11:39 am »

How is crafting useless? I find it to be so awesome.

First crafting is much cheaper than buying from a vendor.
Getting a metal armor before hitting the GMS compound can be quite expensive, but you can do it for much less if you just buy or scavenge
each component.

Second, stuff made by the player has the potential to be much better than the stuff you find in stores. It does depend on your luck though.

Third, variety. Most of the time a vendor doesn't have what you exactly seek.
I want a metal armor, but with a penalty no higher than 65% and all these are above 70%.
I want a hurricane crossbow, but there are none with a scope for sale.
I want a leather armor with resistance to acid, yada yada yada...


Forth, crafting is now more useful because we have a weight limit. Why? Well because i can recycle heavy items and turn them on repair kits.
Repair kits are lighter so you can still clean the place, and you save money you would otherwise spend on buying kits.
Its a waste? Its hardly a waste transforming items you wouldn't carry or that no one would be willing to buy.
If no one is willing to buy a piece of leather armor, that it is worth ZERO. Repair kits on the other hand are not.

Fifth, the so called crafting skills are not just for crafting. With the mechanics skill you can fix the elevator at the GMS compind.
I don't know of any others but its quite possible that Styg wishes to add more skill checks based on Technological skills.

33

General / Re: Ambush Feat

« on: February 02, 2014, 02:17:48 am »

I will give it a try and then i will let you now. 

34

Development Log / Re: Dev Log #27: Version 0.1.10.0 released

« on: January 31, 2014, 08:31:55 pm »

Well it is a fact that the vast majority of people like looting.

Yes it is, i agree.

If you are forced not to loot or loot less anyway then it detracts from the looting part of the game...

Now, that's your conclusion that's based on your personal preferences.
The lack of inventory restrictions made my looting experience less relevant, less meaningful, with no room for any other choice other than hitting the take all button.

It is good you are having some fun and I'm sure many others are. I wonder how many people who bought the game and don't use the foruns actually enjoy this though.

You are the voice of does who have none? Are those people the majority? Are they fans of the oldschool rpgs?

I also fear for the success of the game once it's fully release to try and go forward with this because quite frankly, I can't see that many people enjoying this looting system...

I doubt having a limited inventory is going to harm the game financially since its present in almost all rpgs. The fact of vendors not buying every item you have is still work in progress, but it has been welcomed from many posters here at the forums. I am sure people on steam forums may dislike most of these changes but i would never use their community feedback, specially about old school hardcore rpgs. They are complaining about Blackguards difficulty and that how awful it is to read the manual before you play.

I only hope that soon there will be an option included to just disable buy limits from merchants and maybe one to disable weight limits...

I wouldn't really mind this, if it meant you could enjoy the game again. I mean i cant believe what fun you can have when the economy breaks when you hit the Junkyard, but i wouldn't object of you having that choice.

I love to play Il2-1946, and i play it with realism to the max.
But people still have the choice to play with huds and third person views.
This doesn't hurt the game (only the multiplayer to people like myself ) because it was made
towards a realistic approach even if it allowed a more arcadish gameplay.
I am sure these it would be the same with Underrail because it isn't being built around a limitless inventory system. Hell, even the old Rainbow Six had the option for auto aim...

35

Development Log / Re: Dev Log #27: Version 0.1.10.0 released

« on: January 31, 2014, 07:23:19 pm »

Your idea of looting is very personal. Looting is not about traveling with a wheel barrel gathering every item in the game. I know it might be for you, but that's your own idea of fun.
Don't claim it as a fact. The game didn't became less fun because it broke your looting rules.
It became less fun to you, and i am sorry to hear that.

To me, and this is my personal opinion so it is worth what it is, i find the looting at the game much more fun now.
I am having more fun with Underrail now than ever before.

Glad you gave it a try.

Edit: I should have read the whole thread and erased some parts of my post.

36

Development Log / Re: Dev Log #27: Version 0.1.10.0 released

« on: January 25, 2014, 02:21:28 pm »

I think it would be nice to have a sort of collection where you can view all the oddities that you have uncovered, they have interesting lore attached to them after all. Taking a look at all of the special stuff you've found also feels good.

+1 to this.
Some are really funny too, like that book of the past about the future or something like that.
I cant recall correctly because there isn't a way to check what curiosities oddities have you
studied so far.

37

Development Log / Re: Dev Log #25: Game Economy Changes

« on: January 23, 2014, 01:54:30 pm »

+1 to Unlimited's and epeli's suggestions.

The economy felt really smooth, and i had to shop smartly until the gang showdown where i started to become quite comfortable
with weight of my wallet. Also i was quite happy with crafting 38 advanced mechanical kits with the remains of my fallen opponents.
The price of lockpicks felt a little low to me.

Also, have you considered adding more powerful healing items, more expensive and with some drawbacks?

38

Bugs / Strange pathfinding

« on: January 22, 2014, 08:07:50 pm »

On this spot, my character prefers the longest route.

@lower underrail tunnels


@depot A

39

Development Log / Re: Dev Log #25: Game Economy Changes

« on: January 22, 2014, 07:16:40 pm »

So you saying hard work shouldn't pay off?

No, that was not what i was saying.

That not really role playing is it?

As hard as defining what roleplaying is in computer games, i can assure you that being able to own a
stronghold or any other money sinks are not part of it. The lack of these features does not hinder any roleplaying game.

New system is fun but after a while all that walking from merchant to merchant to check which one is buying firearms and has enough cash or some cool items worth bartering gets a bit boring

That does sound boring. Why do you do it? I haven't been short in cash in my current playthrough yet, and i have all the items i want
and then some just by selling a couple of firearms and some other odd item that i brought from my last quest.

also weight has negative impact on bartering since getting heavy item like metal plates with weight 20 can seriously slow you down if you already have some other heavy components

Weight has indeed a negative impact on bartering, as it should. Why do you think it was added in the first place? And you should not be strolling with items as heavy as metal plates. Unless you are going to craft something with them, i suggest you just leave them be. Or not, since i am traveling, right now, with a tungsten plate in my pocket and it hasn't affected my looting habits.

so you would first need to go to your room unload armor, weapons, ammo and all other non relevant items and then visit merchant so you can buy heavier stuff from merchant and still be able to move back to your room.

I have never needed to do any of that. But indeed i agree, as it sounds really boring.
Are you collecting heavy items in your room?

EDIT, to avoid double posting

First 20-30 you are just overweight and mover more slowly and have less action points and for example you can no longer use special action with sniper rifle, after that you go into red and can barely move and if you add even more you no longer cannot move at all.

Thanks for the information.

Depends on the loot you encounter, I avoid sledgehammers like plague (or just convert them into scrap to make repair kits) since there wight is 20+

That's what you should do. I believe that's exactly the kind of behavior Styg wanted to promote.

especially since we won't have powered armor

We have no idea yet how powered armor is going to turn out, so that is just speculation.
Styg on power armor:

So in short, don't expect a fallout style power armor to be introduced. However, what I will probably add is an ability to add certain powered components to heavy armors (metal armor and possibly other future types of heavy armor) during crafting that might augment some of your abilities or provide additional armor effects while powered.

You can read it all here:
http://underrail.com/forums/index.php?topic=355.msg1719#msg1719

40

Development Log / Re: Dev Log #25: Game Economy Changes

« on: January 22, 2014, 04:09:59 pm »

Now you not only implement a weight system, but accordingly to the notes, one that gradually slows you down when most games just have a how much you can carry but they don't penalise you for taking all the stuff you can carry.

This does not happen, but sounds really cool.
Styg could you implement the weight system like Elhazzared described, please?

What does happen is something like this. Imagine your max weight limit is say 150. If you are carrying 149 your encumbrance penalty is ZERO. It only starts at above 150. Then you will become lightly encumbered, and if you keep grabbing stuff, at some point (i don't know when yet) you are probably to become heavily encumbered.
I imagine, i haven't tried to reach that point.

The problem is that you are applying several restrictions for no reason whatsoever.

He does have a reason, and a damn good one. To keep the game's economy balanced and entertaining.

you are adding mechanics which many people already expressed not liking and felt they only add to detriment of the fun of playing the game.

I am having more fun now than ever with the game.
Fun is a subjective thing and i am glad Styg is making a game that pleases the more old school and/or the hardcore crowd, that has been starving for a decade.

41

Suggestions / Re: Shroomhead alternative?

« on: January 22, 2014, 03:23:11 pm »

Good feedback Loriac, and welcome to the forums.
I look forward on reading more of your posts.

42

Development Log / Re: Dev Log #25: Game Economy Changes

« on: January 22, 2014, 01:24:40 pm »

Aah dungeon siege, now there was a bad game.
I finished it just to prove my friends i could do it with a single character instead of using a party.
The start might have been a bit rough but i didn't had to share the XP with any party members and so my character became quite strong very early. I had 3 mules with me. I could buy anything i wanted and, if i remember correctly, money was falling off my pockets, literally.
It was a very boring adventure.

In most RPG you end up with tons of money which you can't spend on anything so instead of balancing economy it would make more sense to add things on which to spend money...

And that's a flaw of those RPGS and the money sinks they make are not a solution to the problem, it just
acknowledges their inability or unwillingness to fix they're game's economy.
Real estate market or playing a successful scavenger that became a millionaire one scrap of metal at a time, should have no place in a harsh post-apocalyptic world.

From my experience most economies break at some point in most of the RPGs i have played.
The latter it happens the better, to me. Its when i am struggling financially that i am having the most fun.
To carefully think what my priorities are, and managing my resources in a smart way to get the most of what i have, should be a constant on this kind of game.

I applaud Styg on his efforts on making this game's economy balanced and fun to any hardcore rpg fan.
So far, i cant disagree with any of the features he added  to balance the underrail's economy.

43

Development Log / Re: Dev Log #25: Game Economy Changes

« on: January 22, 2014, 01:58:19 am »

It isn't a case of OCD though I know what you mean. I have actually laughed about how people that have OCD sometimes react (yeah not really a nice thing to do but hey, I'm not perfect). It's just that for me a great part of the fun of the game is exactly killing everything and getting the loot, if I don't get it all it starts getting meh for me.

And what if you recycled the less worthy loot into repair kits, that are much lighter and still useful?

44

Development Log / Re: Dev Log #25: Game Economy Changes

« on: January 22, 2014, 01:03:05 am »

I am unsure of how you manage to do this. In my personal experience and from what I've seen from most people it's impossible to craft something better than what is sold in the area unless you've already finished with that area (you already leveled enough to have the skills for those components).

On my next playthrough i am going to note down both the stats of vendor items and the ones i craft adding both the location and my skill levels.

And if you are unsure that crafting should keep you ahead of the curve then I cannot imagine what you think crafting is for.

Oops, i am sorry i clearly misunderstood you there. I thought you meant that your character was going to be ahead of the curve, not your gear.

This not to mention several trips to the same areas to get loot cause I couldn't carry more and even getting slowed down by the loot I carry... One of the major points about this game for me was exactly that it was foregoing all of this busy work which served no other purpose other than frustate a player.

I am not trying to be funny, but that sounds like ocd. Cant you just let that loot go?
Do you really need the edge that selling that extra loot would give you?

45

Suggestions / Re: Shroomhead alternative?

« on: January 22, 2014, 12:37:52 am »

Elhazzared, even if in theory the game has now features you dislike, you should still give it a try.
I am confident that it might surprise you, and that your style of playing wont be very affected.