Underrail Forum
Underrail => Builds => Topic started by: Ramen_os on July 06, 2019, 09:41:00 pm
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Hi everyone,
With the extension coming at the end of the month, I will start a new run. In order to suffer a bit less than the previous one, I would like to do a Psy build but something relatively efficient (without doing min/max like a perfectionist). Is it possible to have a solid psy build who knows how to use sub machine guns?
What do you think about this build (level 1)?
http://underrail.info.tm/build/?AQQEBAUECgkPDwAAAAAADw8AAAAAAAAAAA8PAAAAwqM2
Also, based on your experience and all updates that happened on the past 2-3 years, can I play in classic mod?
In advance, thanks a lot for your help/feedback :)
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In brief, no. A solid psi build requires heavy investment in Will and doesn't leave much for Perception. Even if you put four of your six ability points into Perception, your Guns score isn't going to be high enough to really be a strong damage source for you. Then, of course, you'd only have at most 12 Will, which isn't great for psi since psi scales pretty heavily off of your stat.
If you really want to do both psi and SMGs, then I'd suggest you shoot for 12 Per and 14 Will, starting with both of them at 10 at level 1. That'll give you fairly strong effective skill levels throughout. The problem with that of course is that it doesn't leave much room for Dexterity, so your AP cost for using the SMGs will be high. But assuming you're not playing on the hardest difficulty, you'll be fine. (edit: Still, on reflection, I can't recommend it. The problem with SMG builds is that they require two high stats, and neither of those are any use for psi. So you'd need three high stats, and it's just not possible to have three high stats in UnderRail. If you absolutely must have guns as a backup for psi, go with ARs. They're much more forgiving. You just need a little bit of Str and some Per; no need to take Dex above 3.)
Classic mode is fine. Oddity mode is fine. Play whichever one you think you'd prefer more.
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Well, with the new Temporal Abilities you can just use Psi as a way to buff yourself and focus on your DEX/PER for SMG facerolling. I don't think it's efficient especially given the -25% HP from taking The Pill, but its an option.
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Build is trash.
Leaving attributes at 4 is garbage, it does nothing for you. The main reason to pump a stat is to unlock feats. I know you "don't want to min/max" but the way your build is it will not be very fun because you will be so weak.
You have 9 int with 0 crafting skills, the fuck? If you are not crafting I would suggest dumping int and putting those stats elsewhere
Snooping with 4 per unlocks like 2 secrets in the very first mission, waste of a feat slot. You either have a decent amount of per or you don't - snooping is pretty useless.
Versatility with low weapon skills is not going to benefit you. Since your per is only 4 you get absolutely no bonus to guns. By the time you are level 25, you will have 135 guns skills which isn't very good, and your versatility bonus will be like ~80 points into melee and crossbows, which will allow you to do absolutely nothing useful with those weapons except against enemies that you were able to kill at level 6.
You want the skill that governs your weapon to be much higher than 4 if you don't want to be weak as shit. The difference between 4 and 10 in perception is over a 50% boost in your guns skill, which is not only going to be more damage but much greater chance to hit as well.
My suggested stats would be something like -
STR: 3
DEX: 9
AGI: 6
CON: 3
PER: 8
WILL: 8
INT: 3
and then you can throw your additional points wherever you want really.
Dex 9 - gets you 16AP bursts on rapid 7.62 jaguar smg, which allows 3 per turn
Agi 6 - gets sprint and spec ops - spec ops is vital for smg build
Per 8 - decent aim, nothing special but can boost with weapon mods (if you keep snooping and never raise this you can find all secrets currently in game I believe)
Will 8 - decent psi skill and unlocks some feats, only 2 points to get to Locus of Control
The way to go with leveling this character up IMO is 2 points into will to unlock LOC & 3 points into INT if you want premeditation and some crafting skills, otherwise raise the stat the is in charge of your main way to deal damage.
This is a game that rewards specialization and min/maxing. Doing Several things decently in this game is just not that good, because against powerful opponents, of which there are many, those skills will not help you. Sorry, it's just how the game is made. I am not saying you can't make a decent psi/smg build, and I am not saying you can't win with it on dominating/oddity mode, but I am saying that the way the build is now is very inefficient and you are in for a bad time. I would suggest planning your character past level one as well, until at least about level 12 so you have a general idea of how the character is going to grow.
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Snooping with 4 per unlocks like 2 secrets in the very first mission, waste of a feat slot. You either have a decent amount of per or you don't - snooping is pretty useless.
Not exactly - with adaptive goggles and food it will be 9 - almost all secrets in game.
This is a game that rewards specialization and min/maxing.
In most cases, yes, but Versatility was introduced specifically for such strange builds. You can do weird stuff with it.
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Fenix, good point about the food, I forgot they added the Per buff food.
On the second point though, I am not saying that versatility is useless or unusable, I am just saying with only 4-10 points in your attack stat, you will only have between 80 and 120 something skill points in the other two weapon skills by level 25, which would only be useful for trash mobs at that point. It is best utilized on builds that pump str, dex, or per to 16.
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I'm going to make a new char to play the dlc, but I dont know until where I need to go on to enjoy the DLC.
I fear being too strong or weak for it.
Anyone have a hint which level is the best do fully enjoy there ?
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In most cases, yes, but Versatility was introduced specifically for such strange builds. You can do weird stuff with it.
Offensive skills without feats to supports them are still severely underpowered though. Maybe you could get by with sledges for melee and ARs for guns since they don't require heavy feat investment.
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I'm going to make a new char to play the dlc, but I dont know until where I need to go on to enjoy the DLC.
I fear being too strong or weak for it.
Anyone have a hint which level is the best do fully enjoy there ?
The official recommendation is level 15+. I can tell you that on DOMINATING, I didn't start the DLC content with one character until level 29, and I still didn't feel the least bit like I had out-levelled the content in several locations. Starting anywhere from 15-20 should be just fine to keep the challenge high in the Black Sea.
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Fenix, good point about the food, I forgot they added the Per buff food.
On the second point though, I am not saying that versatility is useless or unusable, I am just saying with only 4-10 points in your attack stat, you will only have between 80 and 120 something skill points in the other two weapon skills by level 25, which would only be useful for trash mobs at that point. It is best utilized on builds that pump str, dex, or per to 16.
Yep, but you could do SMG-build with 3 Per and maxxxxxxxxxed Dex and melee. You obviously won't get all feats because of Per, but you can get all key feats for it. Crazy building, I know.
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Build is trash.
Leaving attributes at 4 is garbage, it does nothing for you. The main reason to pump a stat is to unlock feats. I know you "don't want to min/max" but the way your build is it will not be very fun because you will be so weak.
You have 9 int with 0 crafting skills, the fuck? If you are not crafting I would suggest dumping int and putting those stats elsewhere
Snooping with 4 per unlocks like 2 secrets in the very first mission, waste of a feat slot. You either have a decent amount of per or you don't - snooping is pretty useless.
Versatility with low weapon skills is not going to benefit you. Since your per is only 4 you get absolutely no bonus to guns. By the time you are level 25, you will have 135 guns skills which isn't very good, and your versatility bonus will be like ~80 points into melee and crossbows, which will allow you to do absolutely nothing useful with those weapons except against enemies that you were able to kill at level 6.
You want the skill that governs your weapon to be much higher than 4 if you don't want to be weak as shit. The difference between 4 and 10 in perception is over a 50% boost in your guns skill, which is not only going to be more damage but much greater chance to hit as well.
My suggested stats would be something like -
STR: 3
DEX: 9
AGI: 6
CON: 3
PER: 8
WILL: 8
INT: 3
and then you can throw your additional points wherever you want really.
Dex 9 - gets you 16AP bursts on rapid 7.62 jaguar smg, which allows 3 per turn
Agi 6 - gets sprint and spec ops - spec ops is vital for smg build
Per 8 - decent aim, nothing special but can boost with weapon mods (if you keep snooping and never raise this you can find all secrets currently in game I believe)
Will 8 - decent psi skill and unlocks some feats, only 2 points to get to Locus of Control
The way to go with leveling this character up IMO is 2 points into will to unlock LOC & 3 points into INT if you want premeditation and some crafting skills, otherwise raise the stat the is in charge of your main way to deal damage.
This is a game that rewards specialization and min/maxing. Doing Several things decently in this game is just not that good, because against powerful opponents, of which there are many, those skills will not help you. Sorry, it's just how the game is made. I am not saying you can't make a decent psi/smg build, and I am not saying you can't win with it on dominating/oddity mode, but I am saying that the way the build is now is very inefficient and you are in for a bad time. I would suggest planning your character past level one as well, until at least about level 12 so you have a general idea of how the character is going to grow.
Thank everyone.
And thanks for these long answer. Again, the build you saw is just level 1.
I want to craft on the game for sure but I want to be able to have fun by exploring. Psy build is the main focus but I like to open all chests and closets and steal everything :D.
If (all) of you think it's garbage to play a psy build with a smg/rifle, what would you suggest? I would like to attack my enemies with some distance.
Thank you and sorry for the late answer.
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Would a build like this be better?
http://underrail.info.tm/build/?AQMGAwMGCgkPDwAAAAAADw8AAA8AAAAPAA8PAAAAJ0g (http://underrail.info.tm/build/?AQMGAwMGCgkPDwAAAAAADw8AAA8AAAAPAA8PAAAAJ0g)
Maybe I should be more precise in terms of what kind of build I want to play (if possible):
Major:
Offensive psy
Craft & Great Speech
Lock/Hack
Secondary
Pistol (or distance weapon)
Grenade
Does that make sense? And again, sorry if my build sucks. This game is hard (I suffered a lot during my 1st run) so that's why I need useful feedback from all you.
Thanks ! :)
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Here, breeze your way through the game on dominating.
edit: ignore snooping and pick feats in whatever order makes sense to you
(http://i68.tinypic.com/537qfn.png)
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Would a build like this be better?
http://underrail.info.tm/build/?AQMGAwMGCgkPDwAAAAAADw8AAA8AAAAPAA8PAAAAJ0g (http://underrail.info.tm/build/?AQMGAwMGCgkPDwAAAAAADw8AAA8AAAAPAA8PAAAAJ0g)
Maybe I should be more precise in terms of what kind of build I want to play (if possible):
Major:
Offensive psy
Craft & Great Speech
Lock/Hack
Secondary
Pistol (or distance weapon)
Grenade
Does that make sense? And again, sorry if my build sucks. This game is hard (I suffered a lot during my 1st run) so that's why I need useful feedback from all you.
Thanks ! :)
Well, there is a lot to say on your build, but actually you lack some knowledge about the game to be proefficient with your build. Let's try to give you the good advices.
Packrathound at level 1 is pretty useless, even if I kinda like the trait on a STR 3 character, you won't need this trait so early.
Plus, Packrathound tend to be important for trappers builds that have to carry A LOT of heavy traps. You won't need it much since you have PSI that weight basicaly nothing to be efficient.
Clothier, also useless at level 1. Among all the crafting trait, maybe one of the less important. Yet it has its usefullness with a ninja build with very high stealth (To craft great bataclava and nice overcoat), since you don't have agility, it does not seem to be your goal here.
And, a crafting trait at level 1 is maybe not usefull as well, you won't be able to craft good things yet.
About Intel, 9 is not really proper. I would drop to 7.
At 7 you have all the crafting feats, so it should be enough.
About Constitution and Agility at 3.
In Underrail there is mainly three ways to avoid being killed.
1 - Having high constitution and strenght to have high armor and HP to resist damages.
2 - Having high agility to have great dodge and evasion to evade all attacks
3 - Having high agility to have stealth and very powerfull attacks to be able to oneshot people and take down enemies one by one.
3,5 - Having the ability to kite (NOT EASY TO DO SUCCESSFULLY) but it require some strange builds.
Sadly, you don't have any means to protect yourself and survive more than one turn against bad guys with let's say guns.
About the way you put yours stats. I think you first put your stats, and then check what feat you can take.
You should do otherwise. You look for the feats you want, and you check what stats you'll need. Then, you'll see how many stats points you have left to spare.
Before doing any builds, you should :
1 - Aim for a good way to deal damages, and put 10 in the relevant stat.
2 - Having a proper defense mechanism
3 - See what you have left and see if you can take any Lockpicking/Hacking/Crafting/Speech.
So ... Here are for the general advices.
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Concerning your specific request.
The first solution is to forget about using a gun and do this :
http://underrail.info.tm/build/?AQMHBwMDCgcADwAAAAAPDw8AAAAPAAAPAA8PAAAAYSQ
So to explain a bit :
7 Intelligence is enough you can get all the crafting feats. And you'll get hacking as well.
10 Will since it will be your main damage dealing with psi. Put every points there afterward, don't think to much first.
7 agility will give you Stealth and Defense
7 Dexterity will give you lockpicking and throwing.
(You can also put 8 in agility and 6 in dexterity, could work better)
Nimble - Really good as you'll aim for armor with low armor penalty (Less that 15) to have stealth and dodge/evasion, and you should be able to craft some good stuff out of Infused Siphoner Leather. (Look on the wiki what you can do as an armor with 15% armor penalty maximum.
Surestep - Personnal advice here. Depot B is a pain in the ass and it will help you a lot against acid. Plus, with caltrops that are unexpensive and easy to find, you can really cheese a lot of fights.
Just use caltrops to a. prepare a fight b. flee c. kill enemies on their patrol route (Work well on bots in Omega)
Don't forget you can throw the caltrops at your feet for 100% precision.
Then, what will you do past the first few levels.
You'll get psy empathy asap and get PSI to kill enemies.
And you'll have to :
1 - Craft a good energy shield
2 - Craft a good armor
3 - Craft / Find good grenades to be dangerous
Aim for feats like :
Grenadier (OP), Force User (Force field are OP, Kinetinetic Punch is very strong), Premeditation (OP as hell)
Don't forget, as well, with Force User, and Telekinetic Proxy + Telekinetic Punch you can usually one shot a lot of bad guys.
Used in combination with stealth, you can kill lonely guard in a compound to make the rest of the fight easy enough.
to have something like this at level 10
http://underrail.info.tm/build/?CgMHBwMDDAcAHgAAPDw8IzwAAAAAAAA3ADw8AAAAYSQrPxQqFmQ
After level 10, you can take all the crafting things you want and further take more PSI feats.
You could also, forget about Metathermics, and go with thought control, in order to get Locus of Control at level 14.
It's OP as well, but I think you could manage without it.
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If you REALLY want to have a gun ... Well I have to think about a strange unusual build ... Challenge accepted ! I'll build something potent enough for normal.
EDIT :
Ok, I thought about it and I came with this build, however I'm not sure I would recommand it for anything else than easy !
http://underrail.info.tm/build/?GAgHBgMDDAZubgAAAAAAAAAAAHgAAAAAbm4AAAAAKxcmOSgUKlsRIUUWPjok
It has psy for main offense. Psychokinesis for stuns and high damage through force user. Premeditation because you'll need it. And well ... Thought Control and Locus of Control, because it's OP and you'll need everything OP to get through with that kind of build.
It has a pistol for initiative through gunslider and "backup" with execute and rapid fire. Yes there is no perception, I know and I don't care ... Since you'll use the pistol on stun or otherwise incapacited targets meaning they won't have any evasion (Plan to use Flashnades, Electrokinesis, Thought control, Kinetic Punch).
It has throwing and all the relevant grenade feats because well ... It won't be that easy so big ass grenades will help.
It has high strenght to be able to wear HEAVY armor and enough intelligence to make a good one.
It has enough agility to survive without armor at first (With stealth and even evasion/dodge) and have "Sprint" wich will be usefull once you'll have your heavy armor on.
I'm pretty sure you can get decent movement speed with the current agility, nimble and armor sloping with a supersteel armor.
And as a bonus, the big guy as relatively high initiative through Paranoia
Note that i'm pretty sure you can have a better build with new stuff from expedition that has to be shown yet, once confirmed i'll update accordingly the build.
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@Quidam Craft: thank you so much for this whole explanation, I really appreciated it and I read it carefully.
Last time I played the game was 3 years ago with a build that barely reached the door before Tchort.
I'm not obsessed with gun and being able to combine psy abilities and sometimes grenades should be enough. I remember DepotB was a nightmare for my previous build (crossbow with high perception).
Based on your advice, my level 20 could look like this?
http://underrail.info.tm/build/?FAMHCAMDDgcAPAAAbm5kUFAAAAAAAABQZGQ8AAAAYSQrPxQqFmQjZ0FmIQ (http://underrail.info.tm/build/?FAMHCAMDDgcAPAAAbm5kUFAAAAAAAABQZGQ8AAAAYSQrPxQqFmQjZ0FmIQ)
I just have one last question: with a build like this (or any build with low perception), do you think it's ok to play in classic mod? Or should I still play in Oddity mod? I remember it was pain in the ass at the end when I tried to accumulate more xp because I was not able to reach more new oddities :D
Thanks again.
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So, I study your build a bit. It's maybe not optimized, but I'm sure it could work on normal.
What I would change :
Take Three pointer feat and get more in throwing. The more you'll have in throwing, the more you'll be able to crit with grenades (And a
crit with a grenade is really game changer), certainly at level 12.
Take Locus of Control at level 14. It's really powerfull, you cannot postponed it so late.
Put points in Chemestry, you'll need this to craft grenades and incendary grenades of top quality.
So you have to dump points somewhere.
You can - have "only" 75 in thought control just to have Locus of Control, more can be useless since you have other powerfull damage dealing capabilities. Thought control is great for crowd control, especially with a LOC enrage.
You can - Put a bit less point in one of the two defensive abilities. Let's say, you try to stun/kill in priority melee opponents, or kite them through caltrops. So you don't need that much in dodging.
You can - Forget about Methathermics. Anyway, methathermics will ONLY work if maxed out. It's almost pure damage dealing, not maxed out = not effective.
So, to say.
Choose between Methathermics or Psychokinesis to deal damage.
Use grenades on tough fights to keep Psy points.
Keep Thought control at 75 or a bit more for crowd control and LOC.
If you choose to go Methathermics, you can still go psychokinesis at 40 to get Force field, electrokinesis, and TK punch. It will be usefull. But then, don't take force user feat, choose thermodynamicity instead.
Take Psi Feats in only one psi discipline, unless very good reason.
To help you choose between Metathermics or Psychokinesis.
Psychokinesis :
Strong one target damage with TK punch.
Very good stuns that do either high damage or can stun bots.
Very good utility with force field
Stealth kills are possible.
But it kinda have high cooldown or psi cost.
Metathermics :
Very strong multi targets with Thermodynamic Destabilization or Cryokinetic Orb
Spammable light attacks with great range that can finish off wounded targets
Cryokinetic Orb is also very good on one target only.
Exothermics Aura is really fun to use.
Test the spells you like, and take feat according to that.
You should suceed with that.
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Based on your advice, my level 20 could look like this?
http://underrail.info.tm/build/?FAMHCAMDDgcAPAAAbm5kUFAAAAAAAABQZGQ8AAAAYSQrPxQqFmQjZ0FmIQ (http://underrail.info.tm/build/?FAMHCAMDDgcAPAAAbm5kUFAAAAAAAABQZGQ8AAAAYSQrPxQqFmQjZ0FmIQ)
I just have one last question: with a build like this (or any build with low perception), do you think it's ok to play in classic mod?
You don't need Dodge/Evasion as psi. If you dump those you can free up an awful lot of points, and you should do that. Since you're stealthy, you won't have any trouble getting positioning. And once you have positioning, as psi, you have everything.
I really disagree with several of Quidam's suggestions but I'm sure that it makes for a very viable build for normal difficulty. If you do dump dodge and evasion, you can max out your psi disciplines (75/110/110 at level 20) and that'll really help your ability to take things down quickly. If you take things down quickly they can't kill you back; and so you don't need dodge and evasion. It's a nice, self-reinforcing loop.
I'd suggest Mental Subversion and Psychostatic Electricity aren't really great for a tranquility psi build. The debuff from MS stacks slowly enough that it won't have much effect by the time you've killed whoever you stacked it on; and as tranq you're more about doing several things to set up a combination effect, rather than landing big crits. I's say pick up Pyromaniac (because setting living things on fire is really excellent crowd control) and Thermodynamicity, instead; or, if you really like MS and PE for your character concept, maybe slip them in at the end of character development. Pyromaniac, in particular, will save your life a bunch of times between level 10 and level 25.
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It's true you can do without dodge or evasion as a psy. Though, I think it's more forgiving that way.
However I agree, most of the advices are maybe not perfect for min maxing, but will definitely work on normal.
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Hello,
Thanks both of you for your feedback, it's super useful. I am going to play in normal.
I'm just hesitating to start in Oddity or Classic Mod.
The thing is, like I said, if I don't have any dodge/evasion, how can I resist to enemy attacks? Killing them in one shot won't always work I guess, right? :D
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Full psi char is like an uber mage, you have so much CC that you won't even need to dodge and evade.
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I'm just hesitating to start in Oddity or Classic Mod.
The thing is, like I said, if I don't have any dodge/evasion, how can I resist to enemy attacks? Killing them in one shot won't always work I guess, right? :D
Either one is fine. If you haven't tried Oddity, you really should. You might like it more than Clasic, you might like it less, but if you haven't tried it, you should.
Melee troops aren't going to be able to get to you to attack you. You can put obstacles in their way, stun them, mind control them, set them on fire from a distance. And of course you still have access to grenades and whatever traps your skill lets you use. So then it's just a matter of ranged. As a low-Str psi user, you're probably wearing a tac vest, so you don't have to worry about SMGs at all, and don't need to worry much about pistols and ARs. That just leaves crossbows and sniper rifles. You stun or kill them first, and everything else is just cleanup.
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I'm just hesitating to start in Oddity or Classic Mod.
The thing is, like I said, if I don't have any dodge/evasion, how can I resist to enemy attacks? Killing them in one shot won't always work I guess, right? :D
Either one is fine. If you haven't tried Oddity, you really should. You might like it more than Clasic, you might like it less, but if you haven't tried it, you should.
Melee troops aren't going to be able to get to you to attack you. You can put obstacles in their way, stun them, mind control them, set them on fire from a distance. And of course you still have access to grenades and whatever traps your skill lets you use. So then it's just a matter of ranged. As a low-Str psi user, you're probably wearing a tac vest, so you don't have to worry about SMGs at all, and don't need to worry much about pistols and ARs. That just leaves crossbows and sniper rifles. You stun or kill them first, and everything else is just cleanup.
My 1st run was in Oddity with a build w/ high perception. This one will have low perception, that's why I would like to try the classic one.
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It's true you can do without dodge or evasion as a psy. Though, I think it's more forgiving that way.
However I agree, most of the advices are maybe not perfect for min maxing, but will definitely work on normal.
You can also split the difference, max EVA and buy enough Dodge for Uncanny Dodge; I prefer cutting dodge on ranged characters and using Uncanny to get myself out of trouble.
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I just updated the draft of my build:
http://underrail.info.tm/build/?FAMHCAMDDgcAZAAAUFBkZGQAAAAAAABaS24UAAAAYSQrPxQqFmQjZ0FmIQ (http://underrail.info.tm/build/?FAMHCAMDDgcAZAAAUFBkZGQAAAAAAABaS24UAAAAYSQrPxQqFmQjZ0FmIQ)
Apparently, it seems better to take 2 schools instead of 3 for psy builds. I think I may dropped methatermics... seems to be the less exciting.
What do you think?
The thing is: this build seems powerful but I hope I won't suffer too much at the beginning of the game :D
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Apparently, it seems better to take 2 schools instead of 3 for psy builds. I think I may dropped methatermics... seems to be the less exciting.
What do you think?
Why in the world would you think that? What could possibly make you think that? If you invest in two schools of psi, and have good stats to back them up, then you've already made a character that is best for psi. At that point, picking up the third school - even if only at about half value - is just the best idea you can have.
I know you said you don't want a min/maxed build so I'm not going to suggest any bare minimum threshold cuts, but... 80 dodge/evasion isn't going to be reliable defense; either go all the way, or pull all the points out. 20 points in metathermics is nonsensical; you can't pick up anything other than the basic cryokinesis with that score (unlike the *effect* of the psi ability, *learning* the psi ability is entirely determined by base score, not effective score) and you'll be doing no damage with it, so may as well leave meta at 0. Except that Metathermics is your bread-and-butter damage dealer school; if you're relying on Psychokinesis to crank out your damage, you're going to find yourself out of psi very quickly in almost every fight. And that's a ridiculous amount of Throwing for a build that isn't apparently using Three Pointer. And tbh, Three Pointer isn't good enough to be the only reason to go that deep into throwing.
You'd be much better off with a build more like this: http://underrail.info.tm/build/?FAMHCAMDDgcAHgAAKG5QaUYAAAAAAABaS25uAAAAYSQrPxQqFmQjZ0FmIQ
That has no changes to your stats or feats, only to your skills.
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Basicaly everything that TheaverageGortsby said is great advices.
If there is one psi school you want to max out, it's methathermics. The other two (even three soon) can have it's use with low score for unlocking utility psi abilities (force field, electrokinesis, basicaly everything except spammabld spells in thought control).
And yes... No point to put more than just enough in throwing if you don't take three pointer.
And once again. Take Locus of Control at level 14, not level 20.
The sole ability to get out of a stun is just so great. And an AOE enrage is just stupidly effective against large group.
And... Play oddity, really.
It's the way the game is meant to be played, it's, really an improvment compared to how XP is managed in other rpg.
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Apparently, it seems better to take 2 schools instead of 3 for psy builds. I think I may dropped methatermics... seems to be the less exciting.
What do you think?
I think I should stop reading guides and weird advices on Steam and focus on the Underrail forum. The problem is I did the game once and I suffered like hell at the end with my previous build. I love the game but I don't want to suffer as much as I did so it's not easy to think about a great build.
Thanks a lot for these advice by the way.
I know some could tell me "it's ok start a build, play a few hours with then restart if you need to" but the time I can spend to play video games is reducing year after year :D.
Becoming a crazy strong mage is something super exciting and I definitively want to try this.
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Basicaly everything that TheaverageGortsby said is great advices.
If there is one psi school you want to max out, it's methathermics. The other two (even three soon) can have it's use with low score for unlocking utility psi abilities (force field, electrokinesis, basicaly everything except spammabld spells in thought control).
And once again. Take Locus of Control at level 14, not level 20.
And... Play oddity, really.
It's the way the game is meant to be played, it's, really an improvment compared to how XP is managed in other rpg.
I heard you for methathermics and Locus of Control as well.
Playing oddity is a great way of exploring the game, I agree. I did it during my 1st run but I had more than 6 PER. With this new build, I won't be able to find any hidden passage with secret oddity items. I'm just afraid it may be tough to progress that way... What do you think?
Again, thank you for taking the time of writing your advice ;)
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With this new build, I won't be able to find any hidden passage with secret oddity items. I'm just afraid it may be tough to progress that way... What do you think?
With Expedition - which you've said is what you're building this character for - there are enough buffs that you'll be able to find most secrets even with 3 Perception.
Since the character builder now shows Expedition content for everyone, let me just suggest a different character build for you. It's still very stealthy since you seem to want that, but now it's a much better psi build and has enormous crafting potential. With this build (which I've used without stealth a couple times in the alpha testing of Expedition, and can guarantee is a solid build) you will have no trouble bringing enough power and possibility to every single encounter to beat it. Sure, you may die a few times, but you might with any build - this build has enough tools in its toolbox that once you learn from your mistakes, you'll be able to try different approaches until you get one right. And after a very short time, you'll stop making mistakes because you'll know exactly what your character can do - which will be a lot.
suggested build: http://underrail.info.tm/build/?HgMDAwYDEAoAHgAAAAB4UF8AAEZQHjxGS8KgwqA8MgBBUCQrPxQqLmQ9IcKIwoffvw
You can see there are 2 stat points, 75 skill points, and six feats unallocated. That should be plenty of room for you to slip in other things for your character to do. If you've really got your heart set on Grenadier, you could pull one point out of Will and still get the 6 Dex you need. But in my experience, a good psi build doesn't need anything else; it certainly doesn't need *improved* anything else, like Grenadier or Quick Tinkering. But if you really want those things, you can still run 14 Will and get them both.
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Also, I'm thinking loudly, but as I will put a lot of points in stealth, I could ignore dodge/evasion and put more on Intimidation or Persuasion... Could be more fun, I like to improve my speech but during my 1st run, I had the impression it was a bit less useful than Fallout 1/2 for example.
Like you said, if I don't put dodge/evasion at their maximum, won't be efficient so...
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I could ignore dodge/evasion and put more on Intimidation or Persuasion...
Don't go any deeper into Persuasion than about 110 effective. As a matter of fact, if you're willing to micromanage your gear, then you wouldn't even need to go higher than about 87 effective. But since you've said several times you don't want to min/max, there's no point in making you micromanage the tiny details.
Similarly, if you invest in Intimidation, you can get by with about 50 effective skill - the highest threshold you probably need to hit is around 100 and there's a lot of gear that can help out with Intimidation.
Both Intimidation and Persuasion have very large potential effects from a story perspective, but they aren't as obvious as the "soft" skills in Fallout were. Still, if you really want to see all the game has to offer, you're going to need a fair bit of Persuasion, and a little bit of Intimidation as well.
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I could ignore dodge/evasion and put more on Intimidation or Persuasion...
Don't go any deeper into Persuasion than about 110 effective. As a matter of fact, if you're willing to micromanage your gear, then you wouldn't even need to go higher than about 87 effective. But since you've said several times you don't want to min/max, there's no point in making you micromanage the tiny details.
Similarly, if you invest in Intimidation, you can get by with about 50 effective skill - the highest threshold you probably need to hit is around 100 and there's a lot of gear that can help out with Intimidation.
Both Intimidation and Persuasion have very large potential effects from a story perspective, but they aren't as obvious as the "soft" skills in Fallout were. Still, if you really want to see all the game has to offer, you're going to need a fair bit of Persuasion, and a little bit of Intimidation as well.
Thanks for the advice. Yep, I really think I'm going to build a mage with great stealth, who knows how to hack/lockpick and with some speech skills. I will forget dodge/evasion and will put some points for grenades step by step. Hopefully, this will work.
And yes, I stop thinking only 2 schools of psy are good to know,I will learn the 3 of them.
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Updated build: http://underrail.info.tm/build/?FAMHCAMDDgcAHgAAMgBaaVUAAAAAAABaS25uZCMAYSQrPxQqFmQjZ0FmIQ (http://Updated build: http://underrail.info.tm/build/?FAMHCAMDDgcAHgAAMgBaaVUAAAAAAABaS25uZCMAYSQrPxQqFmQjZ0FmIQ)
Should be fun. I won't really dodge very well but I can hurt enemies extremely wells and facilitate my life with intimidation/persuasion, should be fun.
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With this new build, I won't be able to find any hidden passage with secret oddity items. I'm just afraid it may be tough to progress that way... What do you think?
With Expedition - which you've said is what you're building this character for - there are enough buffs that you'll be able to find most secrets even with 3 Perception.
Since the character builder now shows Expedition content for everyone, let me just suggest a different character build for you. It's still very stealthy since you seem to want that, but now it's a much better psi build and has enormous crafting potential. With this build (which I've used without stealth a couple times in the alpha testing of Expedition, and can guarantee is a solid build) you will have no trouble bringing enough power and possibility to every single encounter to beat it. Sure, you may die a few times, but you might with any build - this build has enough tools in its toolbox that once you learn from your mistakes, you'll be able to try different approaches until you get one right. And after a very short time, you'll stop making mistakes because you'll know exactly what your character can do - which will be a lot.
suggested build: http://underrail.info.tm/build/?HgMDAwYDEAoAHgAAAAB4UF8AAEZQHjxGS8KgwqA8MgBBUCQrPxQqLmQ9IcKIwoffvw
You can see there are 2 stat points, 75 skill points, and six feats unallocated. That should be plenty of room for you to slip in other things for your character to do. If you've really got your heart set on Grenadier, you could pull one point out of Will and still get the 6 Dex you need. But in my experience, a good psi build doesn't need anything else; it certainly doesn't need *improved* anything else, like Grenadier or Quick Tinkering. But if you really want those things, you can still run 14 Will and get them both.
And thank you for this one. Yes, having a new psy skill changes stuff a bit more ^^.
But in terms of technology, do I need Chemistry and Biology?
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But in terms of technology, do I need Chemistry and Biology?
Well, no. You don't need either of them. But I'd like to make a case for why you should have a little bit of both.
If you can just get your effective Chemistry up to 40 briefly, that'll let you make stacks of thermite grenades. Thermite is nice because it's a lot more damage than your basic molotov, and also lighter. When you're loading up for that long trip into DC, it's nice to save as much weight as you can. Also, if your can buff your effective Chemistry up to 40, that means you probably run around with 25 or more, meaning you can make gas grenades. There are a few places where having gas grenades can be the difference between OMG THIS IS BULLCRAP THIS FIGHT IS IMPOSSIBLE and just winning with no trouble. I recommended a Chemistry score that easily gets you to 60 with just an Under Pie buff, so you could make Napalm C grenades, but you can pull more then a dozen points out and still be able to buff up to 40.
Biology will let you cook custom drugs and stims that are very difficult to obtain. The magic number you want is usually either 100, 115, or 130 - that's the threshold for Super Health Hypos, Regenerative Mixture, and Super Soldier Drug, respectively. At the very least, I'd encourage you to keep your Bio up at least to 70 effective so you can make your own Hypercrebrix (+2 INT) and Trance (increase psi crit damage by 100%). You could pull back 25 points and still be able to buff up to 70 effective. Even if you really don't want to make your own drugs, though, you're still going to need some Biology so you can make use of the Psi Beetle/Psi Crab carapaces when you're making your own armor.
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But in terms of technology, do I need Chemistry and Biology?
Well, no. You don't need either of them. But I'd like to make a case for why you should have a little bit of both.
If you can just get your effective Chemistry up to 40 briefly, that'll let you make stacks of thermite grenades. Thermite is nice because it's a lot more damage than your basic molotov, and also lighter. When you're loading up for that long trip into DC, it's nice to save as much weight as you can. Also, if your can buff your effective Chemistry up to 40, that means you probably run around with 25 or more, meaning you can make gas grenades. There are a few places where having gas grenades can be the difference between OMG THIS IS BULLCRAP THIS FIGHT IS IMPOSSIBLE and just winning with no trouble. I recommended a Chemistry score that easily gets you to 60 with just an Under Pie buff, so you could make Napalm C grenades, but you can pull more then a dozen points out and still be able to buff up to 40.
Biology will let you cook custom drugs and stims that are very difficult to obtain. The magic number you want is usually either 100, 115, or 130 - that's the threshold for Super Health Hypos, Regenerative Mixture, and Super Soldier Drug, respectively. At the very least, I'd encourage you to keep your Bio up at least to 70 effective so you can make your own Hypercrebrix (+2 INT) and Trance (increase psi crit damage by 100%). You could pull back 25 points and still be able to buff up to 70 effective. Even if you really don't want to make your own drugs, though, you're still going to need some Biology so you can make use of the Psi Beetle/Psi Crab carapaces when you're making your own armor.
Thank you for the clarification :).
So I re-arranged a bit the build I thought about:
http://underrail.info.tm/build/?GQMFCAUDDwcAHgAAAABuaWMAAAAARkZaS25uMmQ9ACthJD8UKmQuIyFnZt-_ (http://underrail.info.tm/build/?GQMFCAUDDwcAHgAAAABuaWMAAAAARkZaS25uMmQ9ACthJD8UKmQuIyFnZt-_)
Most important for me is:
- To be a very strong "mage" and have the possibility to one shot some enemies
- Being able to open/hack 95% closets/chests of the game
- Being able to persuade almost everyone and intimidate some dude I will meet if necessary
- Have the most important basic skills for craft (special grenades, psi boosters, health and armor
For base points:
- I may prefer to keep my CON at 5, just in order to have a minimum of life in case of.
- WILL at 10 to start then I will update it whenever I can
- INT at 7
- AGI at 8 for stealth and initiative
What do you think? Is this a viable build?
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None of your feats seem to require AGI and you have 0 points in Dodge/Evasion; if all you want is Initiative I would take 1-2 points from AGI to pump DEX to 6 or 7 for Trigger Happy and/or Gunslinger.
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None of your feats seem to require AGI and you have 0 points in Dodge/Evasion; if all you want is Initiative I would take 1-2 points from AGI to pump DEX to 6 or 7 for Trigger Happy and/or Gunslinger.
As I won't have high CON or high dodge/evasion, I also count on stealth to avoid some tough fights. Would that not require a good score in AGI? Because with Psi skills, my life points will be reduced twice in the game (including the DLC), no?
I don't plan to use pistols, only psi and grenades.
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So I re-arranged a bit the build I thought about:
http://underrail.info.tm/build/?GQMFCAUDDwcAHgAAAABuaWMAAAAARkZaS25uMmQ9ACthJD8UKmQuIyFnZt-_ (http://underrail.info.tm/build/?GQMFCAUDDwcAHgAAAABuaWMAAAAARkZaS25uMmQ9ACthJD8UKmQuIyFnZt-_)
Most important for me is:
- To be a very strong "mage" and have the possibility to one shot some enemies
- Being able to open/hack 95% closets/chests of the game
- Being able to persuade almost everyone and intimidate some dude I will meet if necessary
- Have the most important basic skills for craft (special grenades, psi boosters, health and armor
What do you think? Is this a viable build?
Viable as in capable of winning the game? Sure. But it still needs work.
Your two main psi skills are 25 points below cap, and you're going to notice that. Fortunately, your Persuasion and Intimitation are too high; take them down to 55 and 50 real points, respectively, and top off those two psi schools.
I don't understand your stat loadout at all. Taking two pints from Agi, putting on ein Dex and one in Con, would give you a much better set of available feats, and better survivability, and better everything honestly. Just do that. Do that and take Fast Metabolism and Grenadier. The small hit to stealth you take won't be anything you notice, especially since you'll be able to craft some stealth gear.
Honestly, though, I'd take all 110 points out of Stealth. I'd put them in Electronics and some in Mechanics (which you're going to need for your tac vest crafting) and when it comes time that you need to be sneaky, I'd just rely on a cloaking field generator. At high item quality levels, you can get +80 to stealth from the generator, and another +50 or so from gear no problem. That'll do for ya. If you really want stealth, then you can probably just take 25 points out. Because you are going to need some Electronics and some Mechanics just to craft your tac vests. For example, look at this. This is a high-quality (but not at all max-quality) tac vest with its crafting requirements. This is the sort of vest you'd want for a psi character, though maybe with different cloth depending on your tastes:
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So I re-arranged a bit the build I thought about:
http://underrail.info.tm/build/?GQMFCAUDDwcAHgAAAABuaWMAAAAARkZaS25uMmQ9ACthJD8UKmQuIyFnZt-_ (http://underrail.info.tm/build/?GQMFCAUDDwcAHgAAAABuaWMAAAAARkZaS25uMmQ9ACthJD8UKmQuIyFnZt-_)
Most important for me is:
- To be a very strong "mage" and have the possibility to one shot some enemies
- Being able to open/hack 95% closets/chests of the game
- Being able to persuade almost everyone and intimidate some dude I will meet if necessary
- Have the most important basic skills for craft (special grenades, psi boosters, health and armor
What do you think? Is this a viable build?
Viable as in capable of winning the game? Sure. But it still needs work.
Your two main psi skills are 25 points below cap, and you're going to notice that. Fortunately, your Persuasion and Intimitation are too high; take them down to 55 and 50 real points, respectively, and top off those two psi schools.
I don't understand your stat loadout at all. Taking two pints from Agi, putting on ein Dex and one in Con, would give you a much better set of available feats, and better survivability, and better everything honestly. Just do that. Do that and take Fast Metabolism and Grenadier. The small hit to stealth you take won't be anything you notice, especially since you'll be able to craft some stealth gear.
Honestly, though, I'd take all 110 points out of Stealth. I'd put them in Electronics and some in Mechanics (which you're going to need for your tac vest crafting) and when it comes time that you need to be sneaky, I'd just rely on a cloaking field generator. At high item quality levels, you can get +80 to stealth from the generator, and another +50 or so from gear no problem. That'll do for ya. If you really want stealth, then you can probably just take 25 points out. Because you are going to need some Electronics and some Mechanics just to craft your tac vests. For example, look at this. This is a high-quality (but not at all max-quality) tac vest with its crafting requirements. This is the sort of vest you'd want for a psi character, though maybe with different cloth depending on your tastes:
Thanks. I hear you well and this advice makes sense. However, I have some concerns. Back earlier on the topic discussion, I remember you strongly suggest me to have a way to resist against enemies i will meet and these 3 ways are:
- Having a lot of life points (won't be my case if i have 6 CON)
- Being a king in terms of dodge/evasion (not my case either)
- Being sneaky when hard time will come
[/list]
I was counting on the 3rd one. What I read is that I can increase my stealth enough with 2 specific items even if I have 0 stealth. But would that be enough?
And thanks again for copy/paste an example of vest crafting, this gives me a good idea.
My god, it's not easy to create a character :D
An updated build would look like this then: better @TheAverageGortsby? I still have 3 feats to choose but still don't know where... :)
http://underrail.info.tm/build/?GgMGBgYDDwcAHgAAAAA8ZGMAAEU8PEZaS3t8Mjc3ACthJD_CgxQqZC5mISNn378 (http://underrail.info.tm/build/?GgMGBgYDDwcAHgAAAAA8ZGMAAEU8PEZaS3t8Mjc3ACthJD_CgxQqZC5mISNn378)
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You don't actually need to use a pistol, just holding it when combat starts will give you a significant buff to Initiative.
FFS Trigger Happy is +6 and Gunslinger is +7; so you'd get the equivalent of 13 points of stat-based initiative without any further specializations, and that's not counting the fact DEX is also an initiative stat like AGI, so you've lost 0 initiative.
If you're going to have 8 AGI you might as well max Evasion at minimum and I'd recommend going to 60 Dodge so you can take Uncanny, but you'll have to cut skills somewhere else to make it up.
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An updated build would look like this then: better @TheAverageGortsby?
No, really, no, it's not. I have to tell you, honestly, it feels like you aren't taking the advice people are giving you so much as using this thread as a sounding board for your own ideas, and you're bouncing all over the place. And that's fine; don't think I'm suggesting that isn't fine. But you're just ignoring so many basic concepts that I honestly don't even know how to help.
Look. A week ago in this thread I suggested a build. I'm going to suggest it again, but then I'm done. Here's the build:
http://underrail.info.tm/build/?HgMDAwYDEAoAHgAAAAB4UF8AAEZQHjxGS8KgwqA8MgBBUCQrPxQqLmQ9IcKIwoffvw
That's it. That's the build. That's the best build. That's the best possible psi build for what you've said you want. You wanted sneaky? It's sneaky. You wanted to craft things? It can craft almost everything. You wanted grenades? You've got just enough throwing. You can persuade, you can buy the best stuff from merchants, you can hack all the computers, pick all the locks. You can hit every threshold in the game with a bare minimum of buffs. You can do all the things. Assign the stat and skill points that are left over - you've got enough to put 50 in Intimidation (which will let you intimidate as well as persuade) and still have a few left over to shore up any weak points you think you see. Assign the feats that you want. But know that any changes you make to that build will only make it worse.*
You're overthinking this. Put together a character and play. You'll do just fine =)
*If you really wanted Grenadier & Quick Tinkering, or if you really wanted Interloper, you could pull INT down to 8, and get the stat (DEX or AGI) that you needed to pick up those feats. However, you'd then need to assign some extra points to the seven skills you have which scale from INT. Still, if you think you're going to need it - which you won't - you can do it.
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No, really, no, it's not. I have to tell you, honestly, it feels like you aren't taking the advice people are giving you so much as using this thread as a sounding board for your own ideas, and you're bouncing all over the place. And that's fine; don't think I'm suggesting that isn't fine. But you're just ignoring so many basic concepts that I honestly don't even know how to help.
I'm really sorry if it feels that way. I actually took a serious look at all your suggestions but sometimes it's not easy to know completely what you really want =). All your advice are super useful and I read them with big attention. Again, sorry if it felt that way, that was not my purpose.
You're overthinking this. Put together a character and play. You'll do just fine =)
You know what? I thinks that's the true problem. I love RPG, I have been playing a lot of CRPG on the past. But I was traumatized by my 1st run on Underrail when I realized on the last zone that my build was not offensive enough, after a good 70 hours of game (unfortunately, I don't have 25h/week to play video game anymore, that's why I asked for help :D)
I think your suggested build is really great. I guess I was a bit obsessed by the stats but having a great mage who can resolve conflicts by the speech is the most important. And I can see I will have some points available for intimidation too :-)
Again, thank you and everyone with your advice, I should be able to start my lets play soon!
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@TheAverageGortsby
First off, thanks for the detailed explanations. I've seen you around these forums and your understanding of the game and psi-builds is incredibly helpful for 'new to psi' folks like me.
I really like the look of the build you recommended to ramenos. I'm going to give it a shot, do you have any advice in terms of skill progression for a playthrough on Normal w/Oddity?
What skills should I focus on in 1-10, 10-20, 20-30?
Do I generally put a few points into hacking, lockpicking, persuasion and mercantile each level to stay at pace with the progressively more difficult checks?
Are there any key points where I should have crafting or a non-fighting skill up to a certain level? Ex. You mentioned stocking up on Thermite grenades before heading down to DC.
Thanks, appreciate the responses here. Looking forward to the new Psi build.
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@TheAverageGortsby
First off, thanks for the detailed explanations. I've seen you around these forums and your understanding of the game and psi-builds is incredibly helpful for 'new to psi' folks like me.
I really like the look of the build you recommended to ramenos. I'm going to give it a shot, do you have any advice in terms of skill progression for a playthrough on Normal w/Oddity?
What skills should I focus on in 1-10, 10-20, 20-30?
Do I generally put a few points into hacking, lockpicking, persuasion and mercantile each level to stay at pace with the progressively more difficult checks?
Are there any key points where I should have crafting or a non-fighting skill up to a certain level? Ex. You mentioned stocking up on Thermite grenades before heading down to DC.
Thanks, appreciate the responses here. Looking forward to the new Psi build.
Correct me if I'm wrong but he recommended to play in Oddity mod.
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I really like the look of the build you recommended to ramenos. I'm going to give it a shot, do you have any advice in terms of skill progression for a playthrough on Normal w/Oddity?
What skills should I focus on in 1-10, 10-20, 20-30?
ramenos really wanted to be sneaky and use grenades, so I set aside a bunch of points for that. If I were recommending a pure and "perfect" psi build it wouldn't have any throwing and probably not much stealth at all, if any. It would also have Snooping in place of Nimble. But if you also like the idea of being sneaky and then making a lot of noise abruptly with grenades, cool - you'll do fine.
In a nutshell: crafting last
Level 1, max: 4 psi schools, hacking, lockpicking, persuasion, mercantile. hack/pick is for loot that you'll get when going on the first quest. Persuade/mercantile is for the *surprising* amount of stuff you can get in SGS right off the bat.
Levels 2-10: get Thought Control to 35 real points then you can stop for a bit if you want. Keep maxing other psi schools (if you intend to cap TM at 60, obviously stop at 60) and lockpicking. Hack to 40 real points at least. Persuade to 25 real points; no Mercantile; Mechanics and Tailoring to 50 effective so you can start making improved repair kits. 10-12 real points in Chemistry (molotovs + mutated dog leather armor). You can start picking up Stealth and/or Throwing as you free up points.
11-16: Bio to 60-70 effective so you can make focus stim, aegis, and start carrying around ampules so you don't have to lug heavy intestines, crawler stingers, and such around with you. Pull Hacking up to ~50 real points. Thought Control to 75 (at level 13, exactly)and stop; max other psi schools and lockpicking (unless obviously you meant to cap TM earlier). Start investing in Electronics so you can make improved repair kits and a good psi headband (keep your eye on Bio requirements).
17-25: Begin to pull up crafting as you need it. Intimidation to 25-50 real points (depending on how much gear micro you're willing to do). Pull up Mercantile to unlock trader inventories. Finish lockpicking; keep working other psi schools.
26+: Finish Hacking, Persuasion, crafting, and whatever else you've got left. Keep maxing metathermics and psychokinesis.
There's a little wiggle room of course. You luck out and get a really good psi muffler, maybe you rush elec/bio to make a psi headband sooner, that sort of thing.
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Correct me if I'm wrong but he recommended to play in Oddity mod.
Normal w/Oddity = Normal with Oddity
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But if you also like the idea of being sneaky and then making a lot of noise abruptly with grenades, cool - you'll do fine.
Genuinely LOL'd at this.
Huge thanks. I like the idea of snooping over nimble as I really enjoyed the hidden areas of the game. Looks like the build has a little bit of slack in it, so I'll experiment around a bit with balance of the peripheral skills like throwing.
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But if you also like the idea of being sneaky and then making a lot of noise abruptly with grenades, cool - you'll do fine.
Genuinely LOL'd at this.
Huge thanks. I like the idea of snooping over nimble as I really enjoyed the hidden areas of the game. Looks like the build has a little bit of slack in it, so I'll experiment around a bit with balance of the peripheral skills like throwing.
@Wintermute: I like to test weird build so... :P
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@Wintermute: I like to test weird build so... :P
I hear ya, I really like the throwing skill too.
It's just a funny picture to imagine what our characters would be doing in real life. Someone taking extreme care to silently sneak around a raider encampment, wincing at every squeaky door or crunchy leaf.... and then all of a sudden tossing a frag grenade in the middle of a group of people and instantly alerting everyone around for miles.
I'm glad you asked about this build though, the replies were really helpful and I'll be going with a similar build. Good luck to the both of us, let me know how it goes!