Underrail Forum
Underrail => General => Topic started by: Styg on February 12, 2020, 11:03:53 am
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Hey, guys, I'm doing a little harmless experiment. Could you share your psi wizard saves for the sake of science?
I'm especially interested in optimized overpowered psi generalists, for no particular reason.
edit: use dropbox or some such
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Welp, lvl 20 psion on DOMINATING. Not hyper-optimized or max level, but can still face-tank Curnifex (by crafting riot gear) and all the jazz.
Also, got to lvl 20 without using force field or thermodynamic destab (because both are OP as hell). Or dying.
Btw, NERF FORCE FIELD. There, I said it.
Anyway, as far as I can tell, this should work:
http://ge.tt/4fGdIF13
Do tell me if it somehow does NOT work, Styg.
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Here's a SI Psychosis build I abandoned after completing expedition for the first time (IIRC it's around level 27). I think it's pretty optimized, but YMMV.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=170Qs6Fgr49XM7e22iRQG0c0j8NMeyN-l
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Here's a level 26 pisonicist on Hard, psychosis too I think.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/xx8meg1581k9m5r/PreDC.zip?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/xx8meg1581k9m5r/PreDC.zip?dl=0)
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Hey, guys, I'm doing a little harmless experiment.
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doubt.png
INB4, next patch notes:
Fixed a bug with most areas not having active airborne black dragon toxin dispensers.
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INB4, next patch notes:
Fixed a bug with most areas not having active airborne black dragon toxin dispensers.
Why do you give Styg ideas? You know he is not a merciful Godman.
Notice how he asked about overpowered psi generalists? My money is on cross-school penalties, like global accruing cooldowns or cumulative cost increases.
Patch notes: Fixed a bug where it was possible to complete the game as a full psi character.
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INB4, next patch notes:
Fixed a bug with most areas not having active airborne black dragon toxin dispensers.
Why do you give Styg ideas? You know he is not a merciful Godman.
Notice how he asked about overpowered psi generalists? My money is on cross-school penalties, like global accruing cooldowns or cumulative cost increases.
Patch notes: Fixed a bug where it was possible to complete the game as a full psi character.
Good, good.
Also, nerf force field.
Did I mention nerfing force field? (And thermodynamic destab, for that matter.)
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Also, nerf force field.
Did I mention nerfing force field? (And thermodynamic destab, for that matter.)
Months ago Styg said he was considering giving Force Field blocks a hit point value so they could be destroyed. If the AI would go after the field, that would be a pretty good nerf. I'd probably still take Force User though on every psi build for the extra punchiness. A ThermoD fix would require addressing the big bugbear of psi, in order to be a graceful fix and not just a quick kludge - the fact that psi scales too high with the combination of flat-% results as well as scaled numbers, and can then apply those to multiple targets. Like, TK Proxy -> Implosion -> TK Punch. Double percents, then double scaled values on the tiny fraction that remains. That's just too much. But if Implosion and TK Punch shared a cooldown? Or if triggering one put, say, a 2-turn cooldown on the other (so you couldn't just LTI it away)? Well, that might make things more interesting. Similarly, ThermoD does scaled % damage (and allows you to pick the highest-health target you can subsequently kill, meaning it actually double-scales the percentage) to uncapped targets, meaning its multiplier is whatever number of enemies you can group up - and, as much as I love the game, the AI isn't world-class. You can group the entire Lunatic Mall in a tight ball with one bear trap and a flashbang. So you'd probably need to decouple the ThermoD damage potential from its target potential. If its damage was divided across targets, instead of copied to them, well that might make it more interesting. If damage fell away with distance from source and then spread, ThermoD might not be any more powerful than a well-placed grenade, while still retaining a uniqueness. And of course, you could fix all that all day and I could still faceroll the game by dodging robots then LoC+Enraging everything else, everywhere, every time :P
Still, I've always been of the opinion that games should have an easymode, and I don't mean an Easy setting. Psi is way more interesting than tin can AR or sledge juggernaut; it would be a shame to make the easiest option one of the least varied. I can always limit myself if I want a challenge when playing psi - tuning the game to be relentlessly hard is the best way to drive away a big portion of potential player base.
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Styg please no! I know what your thinking and please don't do it! I am an avid psion player and I like it just as it is.
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https://www.dropbox.com/sh/037meffhxgbxzrf/AADYK8J7k-jwkxXVYAPvjnhva?dl=0
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<...>
As you've correctly identified, the problem with force field is that it's completely non-interactive. Which makes it 100% reliable and fool-proof. Which, in turn, allows for dozens of other super-cheesy tactics. I don't have a problem with rathound of siphoner being unable (or effectively unable) to destroy the force field, but someone with equal or greater skill in psychokinesis should be able to dismiss about as easily as it was created.
Thermodynamic destab, as also you've correctly identified, is just too good as a multiplier. Proxy + Implosion + TK punch is sure strong, but at least it's single-target with long CD. ThermoD increasing that damage 3x and then ALSO making it AOE is just ridiculous.
As for LoC + engare, it's not nearly as bad without force field. Simply because enraged enemies might still attack the player, so it's not fool-proof. But I would definitely support if LoC had extra cost or some kind of penalty for extra targets being effected.
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As for LoC + engare, it's not nearly as bad without force field. Simply because enraged enemies might still attack the player, so it's not fool-proof.
It might just be a difference in how we use the term, but I think Enrage is just as bad without FF, it just takes a tiny bit more set-up to be as bad. An enraged enemy that can see a friend nearby and can't see you is almost never going to come attack you. At least, in hundreds of times using it, I've never been attacked by an enraged enemy that's out of LOS or at the very edge of LOS while other targets are right near by it. So you Premeditate for the extra range, LoC+Enrage, then since you're psi anyway you psi haste and GTFO. It might not be theoretically perfect but in practice it's always going to be safe.
In the few cases where you're right in the scrum, running to the edge and tossing a flashbang to get you your ideal positioning during the incap will almost always do the trick. If it's a combo of organic and robotic enemy targets, well...flashbang and EMP are on different cooldown timers, anyway ;D
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That type of Forcefield nerf would be truly hilarious, a total switch in how it works after 7 years, just for the hell of it. It really should be put to a vote or something, because I'm pretty sure the majority of players would consider it a random and stupid change, and would prefer effort put in to provide psi balance that doesn't destroy the old metagame, instead of some kind of hilarious troll in the guise of a patch.
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As for LoC + engare, it's not nearly as bad without force field. Simply because enraged enemies might still attack the player, so it's not fool-proof.
It might just be a difference in how we use the term, but I think Enrage is just as bad without FF, it just takes a tiny bit more set-up to be as bad. An enraged enemy that can see a friend nearby and can't see you is almost never going to come attack you. At least, in hundreds of times using it, I've never been attacked by an enraged enemy that's out of LOS or at the very edge of LOS while other targets are right near by it. So you Premeditate for the extra range, LoC+Enrage, then since you're psi anyway you psi haste and GTFO. It might not be theoretically perfect but in practice it's always going to be safe.
In the few cases where you're right in the scrum, running to the edge and tossing a flashbang to get you your ideal positioning during the incap will almost always do the trick. If it's a combo of organic and robotic enemy targets, well...flashbang and EMP are on different cooldown timers, anyway ;D
I would agree with you if enemies were always packed tight enough to be effected by one LoC.
However, as soon as some enemies are out of LoC AOE, those unaffected still chase the player (even if line if sight was broken), thus preventing player from disengaging. And often also making their enraged buddies chase them instead of killing each other ("instead of" because they use their AP chasing, not attacking).
Also, LoC is lvl 14 feat. So it requires a feat point and lvl 14+. While force field is available at lvl 2-3, and reaches full power with lvl 4 feat.
Anyway, I still agree that LoC is pretty overpowered, and that at least some penalty/extra cost for multiply targets being effected is warranted.
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That type of Forcefield nerf would be truly hilarious, a total switch in how it works after 7 years, just for the hell of it. It really should be put to a vote or something, because I'm pretty sure the majority of players would consider it a random and stupid change, and would prefer effort put in to provide psi balance that doesn't destroy the old metagame, instead of some kind of hilarious troll in the guise of a patch.
Player-only completely uninterruptible one-sided immunity for 4 turns is hilariously broken by any standard. Even more so given that with minor planning you can use it to both disengage from combat or to simply keep attacking for 4 turn from behind it. The fact that is has been "part of the metagame" does not make it any less unbalanced.
Also, as of late I've been playing of dominating ironman without using force field at all. The game is perfectly winnable. So simply nerfing force field (instead of outright removing it) is not going to break anything.
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That type of Forcefield nerf would be truly hilarious, a total switch in how it works after 7 years, just for the hell of it. It really should be put to a vote or something, because I'm pretty sure the majority of players would consider it a random and stupid change, and would prefer effort put in to provide psi balance that doesn't destroy the old metagame, instead of some kind of hilarious troll in the guise of a patch.
Underrail has always been an evolving game and as such, it's metagame evolves as well. Just because we left something as it is for years doesn't mean we're happy with it.
While not everybody like every change we make, I do believe that overall the game continues to improve.
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However, as soon as some enemies are out of LoC AOE, those unaffected still chase the player (even if line if sight was broken), thus preventing player from disengaging. And often also making their enraged buddies chase them instead of killing each other ("instead of" because they use their AP chasing, not attacking).
I know it probably sounds like I'm just arguing with everything you say, but I really do agree with most of where you're coming from. But I feel like I should add, that sort of situation is exactly the "tiny bit extra" that I was talking about when I said LoC is just as bad without FF as with. If you've got a group that doesn't all fit in the flashbang/LoC AoE, then maybe you put psi slow on one so they end up running in to the middle of the group, and maybe you fear another so you don't have to worry about them for four turns. Next turn, when the slowed dude is in the middle of the incapped group, you can stun 'em with a mental breakdown or a tk punch. Then next turn, they get the LoC Enrage along with all their friends. If that problem add was a robot, well, you drop an electrotrap at their feet/treads instead, right?
Planning out an ideal AoE does take a slightly grander scope than a single turn, but I've always found it relatively easy to do. With good setup, almost every fight in the game should be manageable in a single turn once you've placed the pieces on the field where you want them - a group enrage; a ThermoD bomb; a Psionic Mania Cryo Orb followed by a Pyrokinesis to take care of anyone left. Sticky, tough groups like Balor just require whatever you'd normally do plus an Entropic Recurrence on the boss. One turn and it's all over but the dying.
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Planning out an ideal AoE does take a slightly grander scope than a single turn, but I've always found it relatively easy to do. With good setup, almost every fight in the game should be manageable in a single turn once you've placed the pieces on the field where you want them - a group enrage; a ThermoD bomb; a Psionic Mania Cryo Orb followed by a Pyrokinesis to take care of anyone left. Sticky, tough groups like Balor just require whatever you'd normally do plus an Entropic Recurrence on the boss. One turn and it's all over but the dying.
To be fair, literally one TNT charge from stealth will create enough sound to draw everyone on the map to one location, where you will be able to get all of them under one LoC pretty consistently.
My argument is more that LoC requires at least some setup, while force field can be used AFTER you've already done something stupid as a "get out of jail free" card.
And, again, I agree that some penalty/extra cost for multiply targets being effected by LoC (that scales with number of targets) is warranted.
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Tnt baiting works, force field baiting works, stasis baiting works. Both LoC and thermodestabilization are very easy to set up against entire groups because of this. Even if you nerf force field and destabilization, you can achieve the same (except againts robots) with stasis and mass neural overload.
edit: And this works for both full psi and hybrid psi. You can use the same trick with a grenadier, using mkv frag grenades or mkiii plasma, for example.
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Tnt baiting works, force field baiting works, stasis baiting works. Both LoC and thermodestabilization are very easy to set up against entire groups because of this. Even if you nerf force field and destabilization, you can achieve the same (except againts robots) with stasis and mass neural overload.
edit: And this works for both full psi and hybrid psi. You can use the same trick with a grenadier, using mkv frag grenades or mkiii plasma, for example.
Balancing things one by one, starting with the most overpowered abilities, seems reasonable.
Force field is the worst, as it's available at lvl 2-3, maxes out with lvl 4 feat and has the longest duration and the most utility overall.
Stasis bating is really not even that fool-proof, as you can get surrounded while in stasis.
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Stasis bating is really not even that fool-proof, as you can get surrounded while in stasis.
Getting surrounded only makes one-shotting a group with LoC mass overload easier.
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Stasis bating is really not even that fool-proof, as you can get surrounded while in stasis.
Getting surrounded only makes one-shotting a group with LoC mass overload easier.
That sounds like psychosis build. I really don't have enough experience with those on dominating to tell how viable they are for the game at large.
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Stasis bating is really not even that fool-proof, as you can get surrounded while in stasis.
(https://i.imgur.com/Gxic2cH.png)
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That sounds like psychosis build. I really don't have enough experience with those on dominating to tell how viable they are for the game at large.
Why wouldn't they be viable? Early on you can buff neural overload criticals with trance, but later it grows in power enough that it's not necessary, even on dominating. Or especially on dominating, because resistances, evasion, shields etc. all don't matter. And for the things that are immune you still have psychokinesis and metathermics. (and the nice thing about LoC is that you can target hidden enemies if you know where they are, even if you haven't detected them)
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https://www.dropbox.com/sh/hrri60ksir9ihzm/AABRtHKEYsNdZdgObzJsKhX5a?dl=0
Here's my lvl 28 tranq character, all schools except TM
Please go easy with the nerfs :'(
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Stealthy Tranquil Psi-Generalist lvl 30.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1hJU_tDmCElSwylTldZ2kAOsurfr4wlV9
(http://underrail.info.tm/build/?HgMHBwMDEAcAAAAAAADCgMKAdgB4AAAAQgDCoMKgwqDCoFAAAA4rwq7CncKDKDYdJD8qZBTChyEFCnLCt8KK4qGaBeKitALiorUC4qSsAuKxlgTfvw)
For a start, nerf Force Field. It is normal when it is impenetrable in the performance of me, a psion of the 30th lvl from the 18th will. But a 3rd lvl rookie able to restrain the guardian naga with it... Its bulshit.
Also, please do something useful from monstrous psionic synergy. A veteran fit would be nice, one allowing the Will stat to influence the synergy cap.
Or just throw it out. Psionic synergy, I mean. Why is it there, teasing players, promising OP... But in fact - completely useless.
P.S. Sorry, I gave the wrong link before
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That sounds like psychosis build. I really don't have enough experience with those on dominating to tell how viable they are for the game at large.
Why wouldn't they be viable? Early on you can buff neural overload criticals with trance, but later it grows in power enough that it's not necessary, even on dominating. Or especially on dominating, because resistances, evasion, shields etc. all don't matter. And for the things that are immune you still have psychokinesis and metathermics. (and the nice thing about LoC is that you can target hidden enemies if you know where they are, even if you haven't detected them)
There is a long portion of a game between picking psychosis (lvl 2) and getting LoC/psionic mania/etc. In that portion of the game you have increased psi cost, while your damage output is essentially random.
I have no doubts you can survive that (maybe with a few reloads), but I have some doubts as to how much harder it would be compared to tranq build.
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There is a long portion of a game between picking psychosis (lvl 2) and getting LoC/psionic mania/etc. In that portion of the game you have increased psi cost, while your damage output is essentially random.
I have no doubts you can survive that (maybe with a few reloads), but I have some doubts as to how much harder it would be compared to tranq build.
I don't pick psychosis on level 2, though (I also don't play with survival instincts). And I've never said psychosis is easier than a tranq build. It is easy to play, even on dominating, though.