Underrail Forum
Underrail => Builds => Topic started by: bati on July 10, 2019, 09:47:31 am
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It doesn't matter if you're in alpha or not but I'm curious what the people are going to roll, what difficulty you intend to play and the reasoning behind the builds.
Against my better judgement I'll probably play a crossbow again, with quick tinkering, deadly snares and grenadier (for burrower spawns, The Beast etc). It's a relatively unique playstyle that's very under represented in RPGs which along with stealth nature of the build is the main draw for me. Sure the snipers are probably more powerful but there's something to be said about silently dispatching enemies 1 by 1 if positioning permits.
And as an added bonus it's a high perception character, meaning you get to see most of the hidden passages and secrets.
I will most likely play on Hard difficulty.
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My first character back in 2017 was just like yours. I remade them when DOMINATING came out. Beat it with both of them, and after my first run through expedition, I'm going back through it with my post-DC crossbow character (and snag all the stuff I missed the first time, given they have perception, locks/hax, persuasion).
But in expedition, I'm running a temporal swordsman. High strength, 10 agility, throwing/melee/dodge/evasion/temporal manipulation/crafting, grenadier. Using a sturdy psi riot gear until my dodge/evasion is maxed and then switching to infused siphoner. Despite no points in stealth, and no locks/hax or persuasion or perception, it's actually been a blast; I'm really enjoying the flexibility in combat, and nobody has action points like I do.
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nobody as action points like I do.
Temporal, stim, blitz?
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Probably running a machete + some psi skill (probably temporal) with some trap utility on hard since I tend to not like to minmaxing stats for things like DOMINATING. I've been hearing good things about the sword feats so I'm excited.
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Temporal, stim, blitz?
Yessir.
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Thinking I want to do something with shotguns, maybe shotgun riot shield, I don't use shield frequently.
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Shotguns are two-handed, so no riot shields.
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Trying out melee with some psi on top.
Pistols/melee/energy weapons are things I have not really tried out much. Did enjoy xbow/stealth & assaultrifle with heavy armors quite a lot!
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Shotguns are two-handed, so no riot shields.
Alas, I did all I could to shill for a crafting enhancement that makes shotguns one-handed.
Other weapons might have this property though...
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Shotguns are two-handed, so no riot shields.
Alas, I did all I could to shill for a crafting enhancement that makes shotguns one-handed.
Other weapons might have this property though...
sawed-off shotgun? 8)
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Four-psi user, with Persuasion, Intimidatio, Mercattile, 10 Int - build for ALL lore available, at least I think so.
So no craft.
Since everybody go Tranquility, I'll go Psychosis, maybe spoiler route. As for the rest points - it will be Perception, or if I want minimal death count - Dex for spoiler, or Constitution for spoiler.
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Psychosis Temporal + Thought, as secondary I'm stuck between chemical pistols or shotguns, hoping there are unique armor suits in Expedition now since I don't want to touch Tailoring for a time being.
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My first character back in 2017 was just like yours. I remade them when DOMINATING came out. Beat it with both of them, and after my first run through expedition, I'm going back through it with my post-DC crossbow character (and snag all the stuff I missed the first time, given they have perception, locks/hax, persuasion).
But in expedition, I'm running a temporal swordsman. High strength, 10 agility, throwing/melee/dodge/evasion/temporal manipulation/crafting, grenadier. Using a sturdy psi riot gear until my dodge/evasion is maxed and then switching to infused siphoner. Despite no points in stealth, and no locks/hax or persuasion or perception, it's actually been a blast; I'm really enjoying the flexibility in combat, and nobody has action points like I do.
Would you be willing to share the build you use? Wasn't really sure what to go with but this sounds like a blast.
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Would you be willing to share the build you use? Wasn't really sure what to go with but this sounds like a blast.
Sure, but if I could rebuild him I would, but I'll talk about that after.
At 1st lvl: S8/D7/A10/C3/P3/W3/I6, extra points go to strength, throwing/melee/dodge/evasion/temp psi all maxed, and crafting. I can't mention the new feats, but there are several that I took; pretty much all the ones for machetes, plus one for temp psi and one general one. Until level 10, I maxed crafting and ignored dodge/evasion because I was using riot gear and they suck until later anyway. Then, I maxed dodge and then evasion. Throwing goes up to effective 120. Then you can start putting more points in crafting.
Feats were: Sprint, (new feat), Nimble, Grenadier, Cheap Shots, Escape Artist (gotta fit in 30 dodge from your craft points), Blitz, Expose Weakness, (new feat), (new feat), Critical Power, then several more new feats with premeditation at some point probably (haven't taken it yet at lvl 20).
Now, if I could start over, I think I'd leave Int at 5, and have 7 strength and 9 dex at first level and level dex instead. You get somewhat less damage (like 1/7th or 1/8th less or something), but you get higher initiative and crit chance and later on can put some points in lockpicking and traps or whatever. I'm also not really needing premeditation so far with temp psi.
If you want a more pure melee machine, drop grenadier and premeditation and go with reckless and opportunist. You could also use the premeditation slot for three-pointer and spend whatever points you have left in throwing (as I built it, you could max throwing and still get your craft skills where you want them). Also my feat order is built around how I figured I'd progress through the game; if you want to focus on killing shit with swords earlier, pick those feats earlier, obviously.
Edit: Also, fancy footwork is good for reasons I can't disclose; consider taking that instead of sprint if you can work that in
Machetes might not seem so great at first, but you can really tear shit up later on.
Also there are reasons to use riot gear with shields now, so you might consider that when building a new character.
edit: "better reasons"
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Also there are reasons to use riot gear with shields now, so you might consider that when building a new character.
I suppose you can't disclose that either?
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Also there are reasons to use riot gear with shields now, so you might consider that when building a new character.
I suppose you can't disclose that either?
Feat reasons. And I should have said "better reasons".
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Heh, I'm also intending a swordfighter with Temporal Manipulation. Seems to be a common choice. My next char (yeah I'm already planning the second playthrough), I'm thinking a shotgun/sniper character, also with TM.
My slasher is some similar to HarperFan's, although I intend to max STR and have 6 CON, some different emphasis, but many of the same feats. Oh man, I had forgotten Escape Artist. Maybe I can squeeze one more stat point to put in DEX. That would also open up Quick Tinkering . . .
So about riot armor + shield, it's clear that RA is getting some love, and I originally thought I wanted to play a sword and board character. But while sword and shield (or spear and shield) seem kind of cool, it's still just defense against melee attacks, right? IDK. Death stalkers are scary, sure, and having them go thud thud thud instead of stab stab stab would be cool, but there's a lot of other types of attacks that can kill you. And this character, if needed, could strap into full metal armor anyway.
Now if Riot Armor shields are getting changed so they help against ranged attacks, that's a whole nother story. I'm guessing not, though. I suppose those who know can't comment. I'll find out soon enough.
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Let's just say that riot armor gets better at what it already does.
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That's what I guessed, thanks for the confirm.
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Well, since the new character builder is up, I can post my full build.
But instead, I'll post the ultimate "kill shit with swords" set-up.
(http://i68.tinypic.com/ehabnl.png)
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Oh man. So many good feats with swords. Which awesome thing do I want soonest?
So your killer build goes high DEX. I was thinking high STR. Obviously there's pluses to both--is there a strong reason you prefer high DEX?
Yeah, swords seem to want high crit. I was thinking to take Recklessness as a starting feat.
Was Riposte lots of fun? It seems kind of cool, but you have to take Parry to get it and it's another feat that only works if you're blocking melee. Still, if it's super fun, that's an argument for it.
Is it easy to get swords going from the beginning of the game? I thought it might take a while before you could get rolling with them. (Another playthrough where I'm hoping for an early TiChrome bar.)
Five. More. Days.
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So your killer build goes high DEX. I was thinking high STR. Obviously there's pluses to both--is there a strong reason you prefer high DEX?
Is it easy to get swords going from the beginning of the game? I thought it might take a while before you could get rolling with them. (Another playthrough where I'm hoping for an early TiChrome bar.)
He's got Trigger Happy, so I have to assume it's the high initiative. That looks like 36 base initiative right there. Makes it a near-certainty that even if you walk around a corner unprepared and enemies see you, you're going to get to act first.
You should be able to buy a sword almost immediately, in SGS, and their damage-to-AP ratio is so good that you can do fine with them even before you get a single feat, in the earliest parts of the game - rathounds and the easier Lurkers, and such. And Blaine pretty regularly has TiChrome even before returning the drill parts, so if you do the Eels questline ASAP you might find one or maybe even more TiChrome bars before you have to hit the Depot.
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Oh man. So many good feats with swords. Which awesome thing do I want soonest?
So your killer build goes high DEX. I was thinking high STR. Obviously there's pluses to both--is there a strong reason you prefer high DEX?
Yeah, swords seem to want high crit. I was thinking to take Recklessness as a starting feat.
Was Riposte lots of fun? It seems kind of cool, but you have to take Parry to get it and it's another feat that only works if you're blocking melee. Still, if it's super fun, that's an argument for it.
Is it easy to get swords going from the beginning of the game? I thought it might take a while before you could get rolling with them. (Another playthrough where I'm hoping for an early TiChrome bar.)
Five. More. Days.
High str only increases your damage by like 1/7th or 1/8th at max level; not worth it. The only other benefit is carry weight. High dex gives you crit chance and initiative, as well as bonuses to many skills.
I don't have riposte yet.
You can persuade lucas to give you one at the start, or you can just buy one from him like I did. I went to Blaine over a dozen times in the early game and I never saw a single tichrome bar; I had to wait until foundry. That said, for flurry, you want a curved tungsten machete (assuming your crit chance is good, otherwise a straight tungsten), since it has a set AP cost.
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Also there are reasons to use riot gear with shields now, so you might consider that when building a new character.
I suppose you can't disclose that either?
The expansion character builder should be available here https://underrail.com/forums/index.php?topic=2753.0
Just check the DLC checkbox and search for "shield" in the feats area, that should tell you everything you need to know.
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I have no idea, i need to get a feel of what swords, spears and shotguns can do first.
Spears seem a bit odd at first glance, i wonder if the "spear guard" thing is actually useful ?
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For me itll be spears and riot gear
I wanna see how a knightly jack can fare on the underrail
After fiddling around the builder i feel like i reached a decent build
Plus the jetski jousting sounds hilarious
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I'm going to build a pure psy build : I want to play a powerful mage with high stealth and good speech/lockpicking/hacking skills. Just in case, he will know how to throw grenades too. Hopefully, all new enemies are not psy 100% resistant :D
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High str only increases your damage by like 1/7th or 1/8th at max level; not worth it. The only other benefit is carry weight. High dex gives you crit chance and initiative, as well as bonuses to many skills.
If what I saw in that old old devlog is still correct, swords get a bonus of 7% per point of STR over 6. So, assuming 18 STR, (18 - 6) -> 12 x 7% -> 84% damage bonus. Almost double damage by end game.
Am I misunderstanding something? That's how I thought STR worked when I played a sledgehammer character too (the numbers were different with sledges of course).
Being able to wear metal armor is a nice option that high STR characters have.
That said, I agree with your other points about DEX. Crit chance is particularly significant. I see other pluses around fast attack speed. I guess I'm going to rethink.
You can persuade lucas to give you one at the start, or you can just buy one from him like I did. I went to Blaine over a dozen times in the early game and I never saw a single tichrome bar; I had to wait until foundry. That said, for flurry, you want a curved tungsten machete (assuming your crit chance is good, otherwise a straight tungsten), since it has a set AP cost.
Ah, that's great. Machetes from the get-go.
I'm not counting on an early TiChrome at all. I've had it happen, but I think it's pretty rare. I might semi-rush Foundry, though.
Thanks for the tip about Flurry. I like the image of a dude with a TiChrome machete in one hand and a tungsten one in the other.
Somewhere I heard there was a katana; did you find it? (definitely not asking for spoilers if you did, just if you did or not)
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If what I saw in that old old devlog is still correct, swords get a bonus of 7% per point of STR over 6. So, assuming 18 STR, (18 - 6) -> 12 x 7% -> 84% damage bonus. Almost double damage by end game.
Am I misunderstanding something? That's how I thought STR worked when I played a sledgehammer character too (the numbers were different with sledges of course).
Somewhere I heard there was a katana; did you find it? (definitely not asking for spoilers if you did, just if you did or not)
That's what I thought about strength too, which is why I went with it over dex, but I was mistaken.
(http://i64.tinypic.com/debw2e.png)
With end-game drugs, the strength guy could have 20 str and 9 dex, while the dex guy could have 20 dex and 13 str, so the effective top-end difference is even smaller than this.
There is a katana, but I haven't seen it.
Also, "fast attack speed"; machetes are not light weapons if that's what you were thinking.
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Hopefully, all new enemies are not psy 100% resistant :D
There is no psi resistance in UnderRail, anywhere. The closest you get is damage type reduction (so if your enemy has an aluminized armor suit, your fire abilities will be less effective) and Fortitude/Resolve for resisting extra effects. There is no psi resist stat anywhere.
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Also, "fast attack speed"; machetes are not light weapons if that's what you were thinking.
Doh, that is what I was thinking, thanks.
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I'm considering a Psi Revamp of my old AR/Tincan/Crafter build, but I'm feeling it might be a little too fragile.
http://underrail.info.tm/build/?HggDAwMPBwfCoAAAAAAAfWR4AADCgsKCMjIASxkAZFAAUCs7JigUFSrCiMKHSUtKUynCtcKkGm3Cnmzin6IF4qeqA9-_
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I'm considering a Psi Revamp of my old AR/Tincan/Crafter build, but I'm feeling it might be a little too fragile.
For an Ironman run, probably. If you're willing to reload here and there on rare occasion, you'll be fine. You will want to think long and hard about the benefits of putting those 55 points left over into Tailoring (and maybe even pulling 15 out of Mercantile to redirect to Tailoring, too) once you see some of the new tailorable items. Some of them are very clearly designed as counters for new content, and with 3 CON plus psi health penalty, you may find a need to adjust armor more than you had to in the base game.
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I'm thinking of doing a sword and board build.
Does anyone know whether machetes and spears have AP reductions from Dexterity?
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They don't, sadly.
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Brave Sir Robin: a stealthy character who avoids combat whenever possible, playing on oddity. No idea what to take for weapons for the occasions when a fight is unavoidable.
Anyone could recommend something? I haven't played in some time, so I have no idea what has changed and is/isn't viable for a stealth character. I just need something for the boss battles, he'll be running the other way most of the time. ;)
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Brave Sir Robin: a stealthy character who avoids combat whenever possible, playing on oddity. No idea what to take for weapons for the occasions when a fight is unavoidable.
Anyone could recommend something? I haven't played in some time, so I have no idea what has changed and is/isn't viable for a stealth character. I just need something for the boss battles, he'll be running the other way most of the time. ;)
Permastealth-Psi builds probably abusive. The coupling of Thermodynamic Destabilization + doubled TK punch and/or Cryo Orb will massacre 99% of opponent clumps in the game, if you build correctly.
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Permastealth-Psi builds probably abusive. The coupling of Thermodynamic Destabilization + doubled TK punch and/or Cryo Orb will massacre 99% of opponent clumps in the game, if you build correctly.
Cryo orb doesn't ruin thermdest?
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For my first effort I am going to take it from where I left off, and that is pistol builds. Hopefully I will be able to strengthen my character with new feats or even the new psi school, but I haven't thought about it yet. Eventually, I am going to try all new available weapons.
Against my better judgement I'll probably play a crossbow again, with quick tinkering, deadly snares and grenadier (for burrower spawns, The Beast etc). It's a relatively unique playstyle that's very under represented in RPGs which along with stealth nature of the build is the main draw for me. Sure the snipers are probably more powerful but there's something to be said about silently dispatching enemies 1 by 1 if positioning permits.
Oh man, I have tried twice to get a Xbow character going, but I always dropped it quickly. I love the strategic nature of the build in situations where I can survey the landscape and use it to my advantage, but in other situations I often found myself lacking raw power and AP.
Generally, I don't mind it when a build has specific disadvantages. However, I feel that I haven't figured out how I am supposed to play such a build. I would quickly replace it with a sniper/pistol build. The advantage of having a pistol as a secondary weapon far outweighed the Xbow's advantages in my tries.
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Permastealth-Psi builds probably abusive. The coupling of Thermodynamic Destabilization + doubled TK punch and/or Cryo Orb will massacre 99% of opponent clumps in the game, if you build correctly.
Nice to see mages are still overpowered, lol. Some things never change. :D
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Eh, mages are kinda weak against robots, so I never considered them as one of the strongest builds. They are a lot of fun, though.
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For my first effort I am going to take it from where I left off, and that is pistol builds. Hopefully I will be able to strengthen my character with new feats or even the new psi school, but I haven't thought about it yet. Eventually, I am going to try all new available weapons.
Against my better judgement I'll probably play a crossbow again, with quick tinkering, deadly snares and grenadier (for burrower spawns, The Beast etc). It's a relatively unique playstyle that's very under represented in RPGs which along with stealth nature of the build is the main draw for me. Sure the snipers are probably more powerful but there's something to be said about silently dispatching enemies 1 by 1 if positioning permits.
Oh man, I have tried twice to get a Xbow character going, but I always dropped it quickly. I love the strategic nature of the build in situations where I can survey the landscape and use it to my advantage, but in other situations I often found myself lacking raw power and AP.
Generally, I don't mind it when a build has specific disadvantages. However, I feel that I haven't figured out how I am supposed to play such a build. I would quickly replace it with a sniper/pistol build. The advantage of having a pistol as a secondary weapon far outweighed the Xbow's advantages in my tries.
I like crossbows because they are pretty balanced, power wise. Plus the Expedition is bringing some cool new feats that have potential to make this playstyle a little more dynamic.
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Eh, mages are kinda weak against robots, so I never considered them as one of the strongest builds. They are a lot of fun, though.
Excuse me?
How are they weak against robots exactly? Electrokinesis deals heavy irresistible damage at good range and automatically stuns for 1 turn, force punch ignores shields, electrokinetic imprint tears robots a new one on the spot, etc, etc.
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Elecktrokinesis stuns them, sure, but unless you've got some crit stuff going on, it takes a while to kill even sentry bots with it. I haven't played a psion far enough to comment on the other abilities.
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@Tamior, do you find psi as powerful as guns against robots? I sure don't. When there are several robots, it is a nightmare, and I often find that the elektrokinesis abilities do not damage them fast enough. I keep thinking to myself "I wish I were a gun build".
That said, from a role playing perspective I don't mind it. It kinda makes sense that psi is not as strong against technology as it is against living organisms.
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Elecktrokinesis stuns them, sure, but unless you've got some crit stuff going on, it takes a while to kill even sentry bots with it. I haven't played a psion far enough to comment on the other abilities.
Elecktrokinesis deals about x3 damage when there are several targets nearby to chain. You can easily easily stun up to 3 bots during your opening turn, and finish them all next turn.
@Tamior, do you find psi as powerful as guns against robots? I sure don't. When there are several robots, it is a nightmare, and I often find that the elektrokinesis abilities do not damage them fast enough. I keep thinking to myself "I wish I were a gun build".
That said, from a role playing perspective I don't mind it. It kinda makes sense that psi is not as strong against technology as it is against living organisms.
When there are several robots, Elecktrokinesis start to actually chain, thus getting BETTER. And nothing really prevents you from using EMP 'nades as a psion if you need to.
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Yeah, I know about the chain bouncing, I have played full psi a lot. I still don't find it strong enough.
If there is a doorway, you can always use mines. I do not consider this an important argument (also, gun users have high DEX and Quick Tinkering).
A gun user has way more skill points for Throwing than a full psi. Full psi with crafting, eg, is skillpoint starved.
Finally, a generic gun user can use energy weapons against the robots. He already has PE and DEX. Electroshock pistols do chain bouncing too at a much lower opportunity cost than eating mana.
All in all, I never have problems with guns against robots. With psi, there are a few situations where I have serious problems (eg, playing on Hard, I face problems in the Arke Powerplant and also in RAF- probably several other places too that I don't recall now).
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I played a tranquility psi right before expedition, and while I only got to the mid-game, I did find that robots were one enemy I wasn't equipped to deal with very well. I mostly did what epeli says; premeditation + doors spam.
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As soon as you get eletrokinetic imprint you can literally just place it in the patrol path of a robot and deal damage without even going into combat.
It's about as foolproof as it gets.
And before you can get eletrokinetic imprint you only have to fight security bots. Which deal whopping 0 damage if you have a half-decent tactical vest.
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As soon as you get eletrokinetic imprint you can literally just place it in the patrol path of a robot and deal damage without even going into combat.
It's about as foolproof as it gets.
And before you can get eletrokinetic imprint you only have to fight security bots. Which deal whopping 0 damage if you have a half-decent tactical vest.
There's at least three plasma walkers before depot A, and you can run into industrial bots before getting the imprint.
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As soon as you get eletrokinetic imprint you can literally just place it in the patrol path of a robot and deal damage without even going into combat.
It's about as foolproof as it gets.
And before you can get eletrokinetic imprint you only have to fight security bots. Which deal whopping 0 damage if you have a half-decent tactical vest.
There's at least three plasma walkers before depot A, and you can run into industrial bots before getting the imprint.
And you have to fight exactly 0 of those plasma walkers before you grab the imprint. At worst you might have to juke one of them when getting the disk for Eddy.
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I like crossbows because they are pretty balanced, power wise. Plus the Expedition is bringing some cool new feats that have potential to make this playstyle a little more dynamic.
What ones do you refer to?
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I have played full psi a lot. I still don't find it strong enough.
???
Well, Temporal Manipulation brings into play a really excellent robot-killer power. If you pick up the feat for it, you can actually just gather up most of Arke/RAF all at once, layer a dozen+ TDs on one target, then forcefield up and watch everything die in ripples.
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I have played full psi a lot. I still don't find it strong enough.
???
Well, Temporal Manipulation brings into play a really excellent robot-killer power. If you pick up the feat for it, you can actually just gather up most of Arke/RAF all at once, layer a dozen+ TDs on one target, then forcefield up and watch everything die in ripples.
Please make a video of this.
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I like crossbows because they are pretty balanced, power wise. Plus the Expedition is bringing some cool new feats that have potential to make this playstyle a little more dynamic.
What ones do you refer to?
Strafe (new) + Hit and Run + Concussive shots, Versatility (new) + Expose weakness. And then you can mix it up further with specialisation points.
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So, speaking of expedition builds:
Am I the only one who's getting the vibe that temporal manipulation above 70 base skill is really not going anywhere? Few abilities scale with effective temporal manipulation skill, fewer still scale in a way that matters...
With thought control there is, at least, the question of beating target's resolve, so at least in theory higher effective skill is good for practically all abilities. With temporal manipulation most of best abilities are self-buffs, so they literally can't fail...
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So, speaking of expedition builds:
Am I the only one who's getting the vibe that temporal manipulation above 70 base skill is really not going anywhere? Few abilities scale with effective temporal manipulation skill, fewer still scale in a way that matters...
With thought control there is, at least, the question of beating target's resolve, so at least in theory higher effective skill is good for practically all abilities. With temporal manipulation most of best abilities are self-buffs, so they literally can't fail...
I think for support purposes on a high-Will, multischool character there's no real need to take TM above 55-70 raw points. Stasis isn't a bad skill but at 60 you max your synergy and get 160 effective, then + gear. For other builds, even 65 might be overkill - just go to whatever the top-end ability you want is, and stop there.
If you have a lot of points, though, TM still scales usefully up high. Precog is linear, after all, and highly useful at extreme values. Entropic Recurrence can be a huge help at high values against enemies that you're having a hard time damaging. Temporal Distortion is sort of the primary damage dealer for TM. Even poor, dodgy-looking Temporary Rewind can save you if you're riding Morphine, took a huge hit, and can pull back a big chunk of your health bar for a moment before the buff ends; or will give you back what Morphine took from you and give you one last turn mid-combat to hit cooldowns or LTI to get a hypo back into play. (Yes, I know you can also use TR on high mech resist to effectively set up an Implosion echo but I never even on DOMINATING was able to keep a boss alive long enough for that to work - not even Balor who's pretty tanky)
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So, speaking of expedition builds:
Am I the only one who's getting the vibe that temporal manipulation above 70 base skill is really not going anywhere? Few abilities scale with effective temporal manipulation skill, fewer still scale in a way that matters...
With thought control there is, at least, the question of beating target's resolve, so at least in theory higher effective skill is good for practically all abilities. With temporal manipulation most of best abilities are self-buffs, so they literally can't fail...
My evasive puncher doesn't agree. Precognition did help him greatly at evading/dodging attacks. Temporal Disortion did help as well since it's a ranged attack and is good vs armoured enemies. It's going to be even more necessary now, after unarmed/fists got nerfed and Black Sea offers some pretty hard nuts to crack.
Expose Weakness helps but it has cooldown, not to mention Disortion benefits from this feat too.
So this was my first build - fists, dodge, evasion, tailoring, electronics, mechanics, max DEX, 8 AGI, 7 INT, 6 WIL, 3 CON. Spec points went into Nimble and Cheap Shots.
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(Yes, I know you can also use TR on high mech resist to effectively set up an Implosion echo but I never even on DOMINATING was able to keep a boss alive long enough for that to work - not even Balor who's pretty tanky)
Speaking of this, can you deal 70% of HP via implosion, and then buff it to 200%+ of that via Entropic Recurrence on the spot? So basically anything with mech resistance <60% will just insta-die no-matter-what?
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[can you deal 70% of HP via implosion, and then buff it to 200%+ of that via Entropic Recurrence on the spot? So basically anything with mech resistance <60% will just insta-die no-matter-what?
No. ER is an end-of-turn DoT, and the damage is smeared pretty wide (it was originally far too powerful and was brought back into the realm of reason - it *used to be possible* to do as you describe, but no longer). Still, if you ER a good heavy Implosion/TK Punch you certainly can put a lethal DoT on the target, then just go run away and let them die off on their own. For one-turn kills, you're still probably better off with a Proxied Implosion on your main target, then maybe a ThermoD from a secondary target or if your main target is alone, use that Proxy again for a TK Punch.
EDIT: Let me make an amendment, here, but leave the original post since I don't hide my mistakes :P If you can get a *single* Implosion to do over 50% (second edit: not 40, 50 - typo) of the target health, and you proxy the Implosion, and ER that, then the target should die at the end of their following turn, so if you would call that insta-die then absolutely yes, and I was wrong to say no.
OK, I'm tired enough that I'm confusing myself. Basically, ER will kill an enemy after they've taken their turn. It will not apply damage at the end of the turn when you apply it, so if ER is going to kill an enemy they will always get a turn before they die, no matter what. I'm going to take a nap before I confuse anyone else - myself included - any further :P
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[can you deal 70% of HP via implosion, and then buff it to 200%+ of that via Entropic Recurrence on the spot? So basically anything with mech resistance <60% will just insta-die no-matter-what?
No. ER is an end-of-turn DoT, and the damage is smeared pretty wide (it was originally far too powerful and was brought back into the realm of reason - it *used to be possible* to do as you describe, but no longer). Still, if you ER a good heavy Implosion/TK Punch you certainly can put a lethal DoT on the target, then just go run away and let them die off on their own. For one-turn kills, you're still probably better off with a Proxied Implosion on your main target, then maybe a ThermoD from a secondary target or if your main target is alone, use that Proxy again for a TK Punch.
EDIT: Let me make an amendment, here, but leave the original post since I don't hide my mistakes :P If you can get a *single* Implosion to do over 50% (second edit: not 40, 50 - typo) of the target health, and you proxy the Implosion, and ER that, then the target should die at the end of their following turn, so if you would call that insta-die then absolutely yes, and I was wrong to say no.
OK, I'm tired enough that I'm confusing myself. Basically, ER will kill an enemy after they've taken their turn. It will not apply damage at the end of the turn when you apply it, so if ER is going to kill an enemy they will always get a turn before they die, no matter what. I'm going to take a nap before I confuse anyone else - myself included - any further :P
You are being pretty clear, don't worry.
Anyway, as far as I understand, if you have fully specced cryogenic induction, target will shatter if you deal 30%+ of remaining health. So a 70% implosion will shatter anyone with mech resistance <58%. Is that correct, or is there anything I'm missing here?
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Anyway, as far as I understand, if you have fully specced cryogenic induction, target will shatter if you deal 30%+ of remaining health. So a 70% implosion will shatter anyone with mech resistance <58%. Is that correct, or is there anything I'm missing here?
Seems to be the case. Hopped in the game and checked it out; since i don't use CE or any file mods I can't tightly control things but post-DR hits around 33-35% of total target health were shattering the heavily armored Praetorian Enforcers in Core City. Seems reliable.
I'm not confident it's a trick I'd use all that terribly often. On lower difficulty levels, direct damage will kill most anything; on higher difficulty levels, I suspect I'll continue to find real value in AoE like LoC+ability or fireball/iceball/ThermoD. But, especially for psi builds that also pick up Expose Weakness, you may have a highly reliable way to handle like Industrial Bots (edit: if they can be cryostasis'ed with CI; I really don't remember) and Balor very quickly, with a 4/4 CI spec. I don't normally use CI; thanks for making me think about it =)
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Anyway, as far as I understand, if you have fully specced cryogenic induction, target will shatter if you deal 30%+ of remaining health. So a 70% implosion will shatter anyone with mech resistance <58%. Is that correct, or is there anything I'm missing here?
Seems to be the case. Hopped in the game and checked it out; since i don't use CE or any file mods I can't tightly control things but post-DR hits around 33-35% of total target health were shattering the heavily armored Praetorian Enforcers in Core City. Seems reliable.
I'm not confident it's a trick I'd use all that terribly often. On lower difficulty levels, direct damage will kill most anything; on higher difficulty levels, I suspect I'll continue to find real value in AoE like LoC+ability or fireball/iceball/ThermoD. But, especially for psi builds that also pick up Expose Weakness, you may have a highly reliable way to handle like Industrial Bots (edit: if they can be cryostasis'ed with CI; I really don't remember) and Balor very quickly, with a 4/4 CI spec. I don't normally use CI; thanks for making me think about it =)
But wait, there's more!
Namely: does Entropic Recurrence deal the same TYPE of damage as original damage?
If it does, would it be possible to go implosion-> Entropic Recurrence for 200%+-> Cryostasis with 4/4 CI?
And thus shatter anything with mech resistance of <82%?
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But wait, there's more!
Namely: does Entropic Recurrence deal the same TYPE of damage as original damage?
If it does, would it be possible to go implosion-> Entropic Recurrence for 200%+-> Cryostasis with 4/4 CI?
And thus shatter anything with mech resistance of <82%?
Yes, it deals the same damage type. Yes, if you proxy a capped Implosion you can shatter an opponent with the ER echo, but it will only be doing ~50% of the damage that the *second* Implosion did (per tick), so it doesn't work quite as astoundingly as you seem to be describing if I get your drift.
So, you've got 82% DR and I hit you with a proxied Implosion.
Implosion #1 does (0.75x0.18) or 13.5% of your max health
Implosion #2 does ((0.75.x0.18)x0.865) or ~11.7% of your max health.
If I then place an ER on you it will do ~6.8% of your max health per turn; in terms of current health, that would be roughly (100/(100-13.5-11.7))x0.068 or 9% of your current health with its first tick, breaking Cryostasis with no additional effect. Clearly the vastly superior course of action here is to ER a proxied (and hopefully crit) TK Punch after the proxied Implosion.
Now, if I also have Expose Weakness, Implosion starts to shine again.
Now you have either 41% DR or, with 5/5 EW spec, 32.8% DR when I land the proxied Implosion.
Implosion #1 does (0.75x0.59) or (0.75x0.672) which is 44% or ~50% of your max health (assuming EWs hit was so paltry that we can for arguments sake round its damage to 0)
Implosion #2 does (0.44x0.56) or (.5x.5) which is ~24.6% or ~25% of your max health.
ER then does 12.3-12.5% of your max health per tick, but that represents nearly half of your current health in either case, breaking Cryostasis and shattering you.
I tried to sanity check that arithmetic but if it seems incredibly wrong, it could be.
Last edit: I suspect you see it just fine, but I should point out that with Expose Weakness at 5/5, you no longer need the TK Proxy to get ER kills from Implosion on a cryostasised target at <82% mech resist. In fact, with both EW 5/5 and CI 4/4, it looks like you can get kills on any enemy in the game that can be frozen in the ice, as even at the DR cap of 95% your ER will still do more than 30% of the targets current health.
(0.95x0.4) = 38% effective mech resist.
(0.75x0.62) = 46.5% total health; (.465x.535) = 24.8775% total health.
ER totals for 240% (at ~360 effective TM skill, which is easily attainable even at 16 Will much less 18) will do .248775x.6 or 14.9265% total life per tick which would be just over half of the total life remaining after the second Implosion.
If my napkin math is correct, this means you could with 5/5 and 4/4 even manage a ER shatter on an enemy with as much health as Carnifex and 95% mech resist while also on Morphine if you followed the Implosion with a Punch and ER'ed that.
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Well, since the new character builder is up, I can post my full build.
But instead, I'll post the ultimate "kill shit with swords" set-up.
Any tips for skills/equipment on your build, for somebody who doesn't know much about the game? Go for dodge? Crafting types?
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Any tips for skills/equipment on your build, for somebody who doesn't know much about the game? Go for dodge? Crafting types?
The "kill shit with swords" one? It can dish out damage like crazy once it gets going, but until then (and even then, if you miss an attack and ruin your flurry and onslaught) you're fragile and need backup plans and get-out-of-trouble cards. It's not as fast as my actual build, so in a sense it's even more fragile, since you often end up relying on doors and corners so much in this game to break line of sight. Also you really dont want to get hit at higher levels with this build; focus hard on killing your enemies quickly or otherwise not letting them attack you.
I want to suggest that you figure things out yourself and make your own build on your first run, but it's up to you. I wish I had played blind on my first run.
If you want to see it anyway, here's the full build. Be aware there are some teeny spoilers in this image. A lot of these numbers are very specific, but some are just "good enough" like stealth and traps; if you end up needing extra points somewhere, draw from them. I'm not even sure what level of traps skill is optimal; you're mainly taking it for trap detection and I don't know what kind of upper numbers you want on that.
(http://i68.tinypic.com/10yjihj.png)
At the beginning, I'd get cave hopper armor and boots (tabis are better if you see any) for the extra speed, then move to a kevlar balaclava and tabis and a sturdy laminated riot gear with a psi shield (but you might find that this makes you too slow; by then you'll have a better idea of what works for you). When you get super steel, switch to infused rathound leather armor and whichever tabis make the most sense to you (but you could also use boots with boot springs instead at that point when you're not trying to be stealthy; they're faster and dont have a crit penalty), and start using a muffled temp psi headband. You should have a set of stealth gear on you at all times (black balaclava, soft padded/black cloth leather armor, ninja tabis, and an optional cloaking device); it's up to you if you want to make your main armor/footwear your stealth gear as well. I think I would, but you might find the other paddings/overcoats to be more generally useful.
For swords, with a crit chance as high as yours, I'd stick to a curved tungsten for flurries and a curved tichrome for everything else; your choice on generators/emitters; use them if they make sense for you.
I would make root soda and hardcore chips my main food, depending on which makes more sense at the time. I'd wear a vigorous belt at the beginning and a doctors belt later one, like when you switch to infused leather. You can make whatever grenades, caltrops, traps, throwing knives, tasers, etc that you need with your crafting skills (depends on how soon you level them). I relied very heavily on grenades and grenadier on my actual character, but this one doesn't have that and you may not need them like I did. I also made all my own drugs and heavily used them.
This might be too much for a new player, but it's the best machete build I can think of.
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This might be too much for a new player, but it's the best machete build I can think of.
3 CON on a melee psi build *cringes at the times he died in Dominating* you must be hardcore with the Forcefield/Stasis abuse...
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This might be too much for a new player, but it's the best machete build I can think of.
3 CON on a melee psi build *cringes at the times he died in Dominating* you must be hardcore with the Forcefield/Stasis abuse...
I haven't actually played this build. My own doesnt have forcefield and Ive only used stasis a few times. What I do "abuse" (often rely on) is medications, speed, corners, and grenades. This build I just posted needs to worry more about move points than con; with a vigorous belt and sturdy riot gear, it's plenty survivable, as long as it can get to where it needs to go most of the time. It also doesn't have blitz, which mine did. I use blitz all the damn time.
Have you tried temp psi yet? It's great at controlling fights so you don't get hit much.
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Im thinking of doing a stealth run, but Im not sure what new toys support it. Knives are better than swords for it. Can you put suppressors on shotguns?
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No, 5mm only.
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Thanks everyone for the mage advice, lots of interesting info here!
Ended up going with a stealthy cave wizard minus metathermics; maybe it will be a showstopper, but for now he's managing through diplomacy, sneaking, and if all else fails, running away. :D
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Why no metathermics? It's the most potent direct damaging aoe skill line the cave wizards have.
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Because I've already played a mage with metathermics. This character is about trying to avoid fighting, so he needs high thief skills including pickpocketing on top of diplomacy. I just wanted something for the times you absolutely need to fight, and from what I remember thought control is a good choice against the final boss. I'm alright with not being able to finish every quest / defeat every baddie in the game.
On a side note, my previous run was just blasting through the opposition, it's kind of funny how you notice more details when stealthing by. Those zerglings burrowers have some mad detection skills, for example. :D