Underrail Forum
Underrail => General => Topic started by: Davaeorn on February 15, 2018, 10:17:53 am
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Hi y'all and thanks for having me,
I am new to this game and am quite unsure on how to build my character.
After watching NerdCommando's build guides on youtube, which I all dislike because all his stealth chars are crafting heavy.
I don't know how to proceed without possibly creating a gimped char.
Apologizes also in advance for any grammar mistakes etc., I am not a native speaker (or writer for that matter).
It would be mucho appreciated if some experts could find a moment of their time to look over my build design:
Introduction
Limitations: As you could probably guess I have a strong disdain for crafting in RPGs. I understand that it makes sense in the game's setting but I just don't like crafting as a RPG gameplay mechanic generally (hated it in Skyrim/Fallout 4 -- but those weren't RPGs on the otherhand -- was glad it was minimal or not present in Fallout 1/2 or BG1/2 etc.). The build should have none or minimal crafting (I've read there is a certain 'cloaking device' which one cannot obtain via merchant...)
Concept:
- I want to play a stealth char who is capable of stealth kills via either throwing or melee.
- I also want to pickpocket.
- On traps I am not sure how viable they are without the possibility of crafting them by yourself.
- I want to open every container, hack every computer and be able to find every hidden passage etc.
- I have no problem avoiding encounters but I don't want to have to avoid too many them because I am not capable to kill.
- I wouldn't mind speech talents but I don't know if they are viable.
- I wouldn't mind toying with grenades and/or traps if there are enough available for purchase.
Starting Stats
Strength 3 (no crafting, no guns etc., no blunt -> not needed)
Dexterity 10 (for max. dmg)
Agility 10 (for max. stealth)
Constitution 3 (just no)
Perception 6 (for seeing everything)
Will 3 (no bueno for the build, I guess)
Intelligence 5 (for feats like cheap shots or expose weakness?)
Skills
With the skills my uncertainty begins:
- Should I take melee or throwing or both?
- Should I take evasion or dodge or both or neither?
- Should I take traps at all?
- Should I take persuasion (I've read somewhere here on the forums that intimidation is more or less useless?
- Something I missed?
Feats
Unsure again:
- I am pretty sure I need interloper, sprint, paranoia, cut-throat (if melee), recklessness and opportunist.
- Does ambush work with throwing knives?
- How useful are escape artist, fancy footwork, nimble, uncanny dodge, blitz and should I take it for the build in mind?
- Something I missed?
Thank you all in advance for any help you can provide!
PS: I just don't have the time at hand to figure it all out by myself via trial and error like back in the days when there was no internet and I had the time to play days and hours of world of xeen on my 486dx. My RL just does not allow it to play through games multiple times or try stuff out for hours. Since this is the char I want to play, I turn to you guys for advice.
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UnderRail is largely a combat game. So what you're suggesting for your build is a little weak, not because it's nonsensical, but because you don't have as much freedom to avoid encounters in UnderRail as you did in the old Fallouts, for example (well, aside from Tactics, obviously...) Let me syllogize you briefly. that's not really a word btw
Crafting results in greatly superior gear to purchased/found gear.
You want to minimize the effects on your character from a no-crafting build.
Therefore, you need a build that is not gear-reliant.
The most powerful non-crafting character you can make is a stealth psi character. Psi is heavily reliant on stats and skills, and only barely concerns itself with equipment. But you don't want psi, so what can you do to avoid relying on crafted gear?
You should probably invest in Mercantile. Mercantile will not only give you better deals on equipment, but it will also open up additional stocks in many shopkeepers, so you'll have more opportunities for them to have what you need.
You should probably invest in traps. Traps are easy to acquire (with good traps skill, they literally grow on the ground like weeds! Just pick 'em up!), cheap to purchase, and you don't need a whole lot of them.
As a corollary to that, you should look at Quick Tinkering as a feat. It may interest you if you decide to build into Traps skill.
If you want to find every hidden passage, you're going to need to put one more point in Perception, and you're also going to need to take the Snooping feat, and also carry the Perception-boosting goggles. 11 effective Perception is what you need. (if you use your suggested stat spread, you can put your first stat point into Per and you won't miss anything - the high Perception secrets come later in the game)
If you're willing to invest just 60 points into Chemistry (you need 69 effective), and 10 points into Mechanics and Tailoring, you'll be able to make your own grenades. Flashbangs, HE, frags, incendiaries. Incendiaries are immensely helpful and I suspect you could win the game on Normal using nothing but grenades and throwing knives. Maybe even on Hard.
If you plan on using traps and grenades a lot, you'll probably be avoiding melee as much as possible. Thus, you should invest heavily into Evasion and somewhat into Dodge. Escape Artist will be your friend since you won't want people to get into melee with you.
Interloper is pretty much strictly QoL. It's nice to have, but you don't need it. If you decide you're going to invest heavily into throwing, you *do* need to pick up Grenadier and Three-Pointer for grenades. You should also put a couple of the stat points from levelling up into Dexterity since that's going to make your thrown attacks better. Throwing builds are objectively weaker tier builds, and you need to get the most bang for your buck, figuratively (and literally, in-game).
I know you don't want crafting, but you seriously may want to think about getting 25 effective skill in Tailoring and Mechanics, or even 50 if you're willing to go that far. The reason for this is if you can craft your own repair kits, the game economy will be much, much more forgiving. Repairing items before you sell them increases their value. Repairing your own equipment will become necessary eventually and buying repair kits gets pricey, especially early on. Some merchants buy them, and their value is high and weight low. If you're on Easy or Normal, maybe it won't matter, but if you plan to play on Hard or Dominating with your already self-nerfed build, you really will find having a supply of repair kits (and grenades, as mentioned earlier) to be very helpful.
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Stealthy sniper (pistol\smg sidearm) with mind control and exploration skills:
PS: Interloper is vital.
I can post a perk list if needed.
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Throwing builds are objectively weaker tier builds, and you need to get the most bang for your buck, figuratively (and literally, in-game).
I want to specify that throwing build are low-tier if they use ONLY throwing. If throwing build just means heavy investing in throwing (skill + Grenadier + Three-Pointer + Fatal throw + perhaps chemistry) than it can be pretty OP. Good throw of a high end grenade can be a final argument in many fights.
Traps are easy to acquire, cheap to purchase, and you don't need a whole lot of them.
Yeah, Thailand is great, i agree.
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Yeah, Thailand is great, i agree.
I've never been there myself, but I hear great things. :P
Gotta love autocorrect sometimes. ;D
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If you want to play a stealth build w/o crafting you should play either psi or unarmed. Why? TheAverageGortsby already explained about psi. Unarmed because there are couple good unarmed unique in the game so you don't need crafting.
Just want to add some minor points:
- Use the build tool http://underrail.info.tm/build/ to plan and post your build.
- Don't play dominating difficulty w/o crafting. It can be done but it's not fun.
- I just don't get Interloper: you do get faster stealth speed (you can get by easily without this speed boost) and +15MP in combat but why choose this when you can get Sprint for +30MP for 2 turns, on demand? You should test out the two feats in a separate save before fully commit to your build
- For most build Cutthroat is a luxury you can't afford. I don't recommend getting this for a knife build.
- Ambush only works w/ range weapons. Since throwing knives are consider combat utilities, no, I don't think Ambush works w/ throwing knives.
- Blitz is a very specialize feat. If you are new to the game, I don't recommend getting it.
- Escape artist, Fancy footwork, Nimble, Uncanny dodge: hard to say without looking at your build. Fancy Footwork works well w/ high DEX knife/unarmed build (works great w/ Blitz too). If you have one last empty feat slot I think Uncanny dodge > Nimble > Escape artist.
- Melee, throwing or both -> again hard to say without looking at your build. Since you are playing w/o crafting I would say both. Just remember throwing skills does not increase grenade damage as it only increase throwing accuracy. 80 effective throwing is a good target to aim for as it will allow you to throw a grenade four tiles away at 90% accuracy. Anything over would probably be a waste in your case.
- Dodge and Evasion are not worth it in Dominating difficulty. They are very useful for easy/normal/hard. Since you are playing w/o crafting get both since you should have a lot of skill points left anyway. If you need skill points else where cut dodge to 40 and just use Uncanny dodge.
- Traps: just get 25 base traps so you can get quick tinkering, that should be enough
- Persuasion: really your personal choice
- "I want to open every container, hack every computer and be able to find every hidden passage etc" Open every container + hack every computer = 130 effective hacking *without the aid of tools*, 130 effective lockpicking. The last one is a problem - find every hidden passage requires high PER but PER is useless to a melee/psi char. I would say save this for a second run w/ a gunner/xbow char.
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If you don't have time to play several times and don't want to bother with crafting (kinda stupid, since this crafting system is nothing like fucking Skyrim's crafting system), i would strongly recommend playing on Normal or maybe even Easy. Don't worry, the game will still be sufficiently hard for you, since, again, this is not a fucking Skyrim.
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First of all thanks to all of you for the advice and the help.
I have two things in mind as it stands now:
1) Staying true to my idea but with light crafting as TheAverageGortsBy suggested.
2) Making a different build more in the direction of what STEN proposes but without the psi-stuff but not with sniper rifles but with pistols or xbows (but xbows need heavy crafting I've read)
Maybe something like this but I am unsure on perks again and not sure if pistol or smg for stealth...
http://underrail.info.tm/build/?GQMKCgMKAwfChwAAAMKHwofCh31swodkAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABFzkeME4CNiRPMSYR
(http://underrail.info.tm/build/?GQMKCgMKAwfChwAAAMKHwofCh31swodkAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABFzkeME4CNiRPMSYR)
The last one is a problem - find every hidden passage requires high PER but PER is useless to a melee/psi char. I would say save this for a second run w/ a gunner/xbow char.
Maybe a stealth pistol build is a good idea then?
Stealthy sniper (pistol\smg sidearm) with mind control and exploration skills:
PS: Interloper is vital.
I can post a perk list if needed.
That would be much appreciated.
UnderRail is largely a combat game. So what you're suggesting for your build is a little weak, not because it's nonsensical, but because you don't have as much freedom to avoid encounters in UnderRail as you did in the old Fallouts, for example (well, aside from Tactics, obviously...) Let me syllogize you briefly. that's not really a word btw
Crafting results in greatly superior gear to purchased/found gear.
You want to minimize the effects on your character from a no-crafting build.
Therefore, you need a build that is not gear-reliant.
Ok but from what I gathered I want to play a very gear reliant build.
So maybe I will follow your advices on taking some light crafting eventually.
Yeah, Thailand is great, i agree.
I've never been there myself, but I hear great things. :P
Gotta love autocorrect sometimes. ;D
Thanks for the travel advices but I am already going to Crete this year. :)
If you don't have time to play several times and don't want to bother with crafting (kinda stupid, since this crafting system is nothing like fucking Skyrim's crafting system), i would strongly recommend playing on Normal or maybe even Easy. Don't worry, the game will still be sufficiently hard for you, since, again, this is not a fucking Skyrim.
I am an RPG-Player of old as stated in my initial post. I don't want another Skyrim or (even worse) Witcher 3 because they are not RPGs in my eyes.
I also do realize very well that Skyrim's crafting system was particularly stupid.
So what would you suggest if I am to take some crafting skills for the aforementioned build?
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I am an RPG-Player of old as stated in my initial post.
Doesn't matter. Higher difficulties require deeper understanding of the system than you possess. That's not a jab at you, it's just a consequences of you not wiling to spend enough time at this game. If you want to make just one run of the game, play at Normal. And believe me, it's not 'normal' from modern games, it can be quite hard, especially first time, so don't worry about challenge.
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I am an RPG-Player of old as stated in my initial post.
Doesn't matter. Higher difficulties require deeper understanding of the system than you possess. That's not a jab at you, it's just a consequences of you not wiling to spend enough time at this game. If you want to make just one run of the game, play at Normal. And believe me, it's not 'normal' from modern games, it can be quite hard, especially first time, so don't worry about challenge.
I understand what you're saying.
Ofc I do not have the understanding I have with games like BG, F1/2 or so but then again if I had I wouldn't come here to ask for advice, right?
I will play on normal but my initial question was not about difficulty level but about a build with stealth which can explore most of the game without having to avoid fighting constantly.
Then I've read it's a much more combat heavy game like F1/F2, so I came up with a slightly different concept in my last post.
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not sure if pistol or smg for stealth...
Thanks for the travel advices but I am already going to Crete this year. :)
If you want a stealthy gun, you're going to need a silenced gun. If you're going to use a silenced gun, you're going to have to use a 5mm barrel, since silencers only work on those. Since you're using a 5mm, SMGs will almost always be superior to pistols unless you somehow do not have the required skill (and you will, if you put points into Guns). [EDIT: I should add though that you do have two hands, and carrying an SMG in one and a pistol in the other is not a bad choice at all, especially if you intend to give yourself many opportunities to use Execute] [OK one last thing. In your build idea from a few posts above, you shouldn't take Snooping on a build with 10 Perception. It's a waste of a feat.]
Crete is lovely. Enjoy it all :D
Just remember throwing skills does not increase grenade damage as it only increase throwing accuracy.
May I nitpick? with Three Pointer, Throwing increases your crit frequency noticeably which does, taken in average, increase your damage. That's why I said it was necessary for a highly grenade-reliant build, especially one without enough crafting to make the Tier V grenades.
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Play Hard - don't play Normal, it's just waste of time, Normal diff. won't get you experience about combat because there you can make mistakes and still survive, so you don't need to learn.
Also, for all sekkkrets you need 10 Per or 7 Per+Snooping.
Also you can get cloacking device - there are at least 203 in game, maybe more, thou they are not top quality.
Also, get Tazer as soon as possible - handy stuff for almost all builds, for pistol and melee too.
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Also, for all sekkkrets you need 10 Per or 7 Per+Snooping.
11. The most important secret location requires 11 Per. The rest are mostly useless, especially if you are not doing oddity xp.
Normal diff. won't get you experience about combat because there you can make mistakes and still survive, so you don't need to learn.
That's the idea. He doesn't want to get stuck halfway through the game (or even worse, near the end).
I will play on normal but my initial question was not about difficulty level but about a build with stealth which can explore most of the game without having to avoid fighting constantly.
I would recommend playing SMG build, it's close enough to your stat distribution (just remember to pump the dex to the max on lvl ups). It's more powerful than pistol or crossbow builds and doesn't rely heavily on crafting - there are decent unique weapons for that type and smart goggles are sold at the shop, which will allow you to be decently good at killing stuff. I goes well with stealth and Ambush feat, since you can find silenced SMGs allowing you to pick enemies in smaller grounds if you need to. And it has relatively simple build - Spec Ops + Commando. If you take Grenadier and Three-Pointer along with decent throwing skill (as was pointed out - around 80 effective skill) you would be golden. I would also suggest Paranoia for additional boost to initiative and detection. Opportunist + Suppressive Fire are also good combo to boost you damage even further along with applying some debuff to the enemy
Attribute points needed - Dex as high as possible since it affects how AP per shot you are using, Per around 10, Agi 7 for feats. Also, if you don't intend to craft anything 7 points in Int is such a waste. Drop it to 3, you will only need to spend couple more points on hacking and since you don't do crafting, you have them.
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Since you're using a 5mm, SMGs will almost always be superior to pistols unless you somehow do not have the required skill
Strange, it seems like you are saying that in case of other calibers SMGs are not always superior to pistols. But you can't be saying that. That would be madness.
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I always heard that 10 Per is enough for all secrets.
Are you sure?
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Yes, you need 11 for several secret places, one of them is much more important than any other secret place in the game.
If you want to know what exactly, look at the Perception page of the wiki, it's a third row from the bottom in the table of secrets. Don't want to spoil it here. I just say that it'll help to avoid VERY nasty encounter.
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I would recommend playing SMG build, it's close enough to your stat distribution (just remember to pump the dex to the max on lvl ups). It's more powerful than pistol or crossbow builds and doesn't rely heavily on crafting - there are decent unique weapons for that type and smart goggles are sold at the shop, which will allow you to be decently good at killing stuff. I goes well with stealth and Ambush feat, since you can find silenced SMGs allowing you to pick enemies in smaller grounds if you need to. And it has relatively simple build - Spec Ops + Commando. If you take Grenadier and Three-Pointer along with decent throwing skill (as was pointed out - around 80 effective skill) you would be golden. I would also suggest Paranoia for additional boost to initiative and detection. Opportunist + Suppressive Fire are also good combo to boost you damage even further along with applying some debuff to the enemy
Attribute points needed - Dex as high as possible since it affects how AP per shot you are using, Per around 10, Agi 7 for feats. Also, if you don't intend to craft anything 7 points in Int is such a waste. Drop it to 3, you will only need to spend couple more points on hacking and since you don't do crafting, you have them.
Well, thanks again for your sound advice.
I think I will go with what you propose stats-wise but I still have two questions in mind:
- I am going to play normal so do I need dodge/evasion or would you recommend skipping it completely and maybe just invest somewhat into crafting (I consider tailoring for the trenchcoat and tabi boots, maybe mechanics for silencers?)
- I would really prefer pistol over smg. I'd be ok with throwing as secondary combat skill for the grenades. What feats would you recommend for that route?
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- I am going to play normal so do I need dodge/evasion or would you recommend skipping it completely and maybe just invest somewhat into crafting (I consider tailoring for the trenchcoat and tabi boots, maybe mechanics for silencers?)
I would recommend keeping at least evasion full, since you are skipping crafting for the most part anyway. It will increase your survivability. With 7 Agi, Nimble, light armor and tabi boots, you'll be pretty hard to hit eventually. Dodge is tad less useful for ranged build, but you can put some points in there and also take Uncanny Dodge to get those automatic misses when you anticipate someone getting in melee with you. I would say that if you want to just wear stealth tac vest, you can even skip tailoring. 30 or so points in electronics will get you Taser (you'll just need to look for components with low enough quality) that can stun enemy in melee for 10 AP once per 3 turns. Solid investment.
I'd say that on Normal with build like this you can really skip crafting and still be pretty effective. So if you do dislike it like you say, go for it)
- I would really prefer pistol over smg. I'd be ok with throwing as secondary combat skill for the grenades. What feats would you recommend for that route?
I honestly would not recommend pistol without solid investment in crafting. Unfortunately not weapons were created equal, and pistol is much closer to the lower end (and believe me, i'm saying it with bleeding heart, since i love pistols too). And without crafting they are about half as good, which is you can imagine is...not very good at all. So you have to choose between your aversion to crafting and desire to play with pistols.
With pistols you need to take as much special attacks as you can - Aimed Shot, Kneecap Shot, Rapid Fire, Point Shot. They will be you bread and butter. You also should take feats to increase you critical chance and damage - Recklessness, Critical power, Sharpshooter. Don't go for Steadfast Aim, it's a trap. Gunslinger is a must - increase in Intiative and less AP per shot. Paranoia is good since with this and Gunslinger you will almost always shoot first, one of the things that pistols do well and why i love them. As far as crafting goes - you need mechanics and electronics decently high and what you should aim for is .44 Hammerer with Rapid Reloader and Smart Module of as high quality as you can find. You also should wear smart goggles. As far as attribute concerned, they would be almost the same - Dex up to 14 (since you'll be using .44 with RR it's as high as you would need it), Int around 5 or so, so you wouldn't need to overinvest in tech skills, 10 Per and around 7-8 in Agi. I WOULD recommend investing into Evasion and Dodge, especially Evasion
Throwing grenades as secondary is good on almost any build. Grenadier (lower cooldowns) + Three-Pointer (get a grenade chance to crit) are what you need for that and about 50 skill points invested in throwing skill. Grenades come in many aspects - HE against targets with high mech resist, Frag against most things, Flashbangs to incapacitate group of enemies, EMP to damage and stun robots, gas to apply lasting debuffs and damage. They are really cool and effective. Could be incorporated in the pistol build also.
Well, that's about it. Hope i was of any help. Good luck and enjoy the game, it's not a perfect one but pretty good at scratching that "old school" itch)
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I honestly would not recommend pistol without solid investment in crafting. Unfortunately not weapons were created equal, and pistol is much closer to the lower end (and believe me, i'm saying it with bleeding heart, since i love pistols too). And without crafting they are about half as good, which is you can imagine is...not very good at all. So you have to choose between your aversion to crafting and desire to play with pistols.
Well, that's about it. Hope i was of any help. Good luck and enjoy the game, it's not a perfect one but pretty good at scratching that "old school" itch)
Ok, thanks again.
I feel like I have made my decision then:
http://underrail.info.tm/build/?GQMOCAMKAwXChzIAACjCh8KHeEvChwBfXwAAQQAAAAAAABcBHlsxJlkRKEtOFjkC (http://underrail.info.tm/build/?GQMOCAMKAwXChzIAACjCh8KHeEvChwBfXwAAQQAAAAAAABcBHlsxJlkRKEtOFjkC)
To bring this thread to a close, would that build carry me through?
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Ok, thanks again.
I feel like I have made my decision then:
http://underrail.info.tm/build/?GQMOCAMKAwXChzIAACjCh8KHeEvChwBfXwAAQQAAAAAAABcBHlsxJlkRKEtOFjkC (http://underrail.info.tm/build/?GQMOCAMKAwXChzIAACjCh8KHeEvChwBfXwAAQQAAAAAAABcBHlsxJlkRKEtOFjkC)
To bring this thread to a close, would that build carry me through?
Hm. I would drop Executioner, it is a special attack, but a pretty bad one - first, it only works against stunned or incapacitated targets, second, you need to be pretty close to fire it. You probably should find a way to get Sharpshooter into your build (i would drop either Escape Artist or Execute). To get most of the Critical Power you need decent critical damage bonus and for pistols it's basically the only way to do it. Without it your Hammerer will have 125% crit damage bonus, 162.5% with Critical Power. With it you will have 155% critical damage bonus, 237.5% with Critical Power. Difference is pretty big.
65 points in tailoring will get almost nothing you wouldn't be able to buy/loot even without mercantile. So they should be put somewhere else. Biology is a good choice - with this much you will be able to craft Focus Stim, blueprint of which is always sold in core city, it gives you +15% crit chance for 10 turns. Also stuff like Jumping bean that increases your dodge/evasion and movement.
Also, 135 in pickpocketing? Not sure if you'll ever need this much) Money is almost never an issue except early game. I'd say put some of those point into traps. Like 40 or so.
Oh, and another thing. Besides .44 hammerer, you'll need 5mm Neo Luger with Silencer and Smart module. Not as effective as smart SMG, but you'll still be able to kill one, maybe two enemies on one turn, so it'll still be useful for stealthy kills.
Stack up on W2C ammo with every chance you got. High mech resist is your worst enemy.
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I would recommend playing SMG build, it's close enough to your stat distribution (just remember to pump the dex to the max on lvl ups). It's more powerful than pistol or crossbow builds and doesn't rely heavily on crafting - there are decent unique weapons for that type and smart goggles are sold at the shop, which will allow you to be decently good at killing stuff. I goes well with stealth and Ambush feat, since you can find silenced SMGs allowing you to pick enemies in smaller grounds if you need to. And it has relatively simple build - Spec Ops + Commando. If you take Grenadier and Three-Pointer along with decent throwing skill (as was pointed out - around 80 effective skill) you would be golden. I would also suggest Paranoia for additional boost to initiative and detection. Opportunist + Suppressive Fire are also good combo to boost you damage even further along with applying some debuff to the enemy
Attribute points needed - Dex as high as possible since it affects how AP per shot you are using, Per around 10, Agi 7 for feats. Also, if you don't intend to craft anything 7 points in Int is such a waste. Drop it to 3, you will only need to spend couple more points on hacking and since you don't do crafting, you have them.
Well, thanks again for your sound advice.
I think I will go with what you propose stats-wise but I still have two questions in mind:
- I am going to play normal so do I need dodge/evasion or would you recommend skipping it completely and maybe just invest somewhat into crafting (I consider tailoring for the trenchcoat and tabi boots, maybe mechanics for silencers?)
- I would really prefer pistol over smg. I'd be ok with throwing as secondary combat skill for the grenades. What feats would you recommend for that route?
first off pistols effective only in hands of untrained charaters and they cost a lot to be effective, if you really want a good firepower and stealth you should go crossbows or throwing knifes
crafting is vital in every stage of game but crafting takes important role in mid game to achieve better gear than you may find in shops or from bodies
rapid fire is almost useless if you picked spec ops feat
most vital feats for ninja build is nimble (minus 15% armor penalty plus armor class buff) AND uncanny dodge (gives you 100% chance to dodge melee attacks) and evasive maneuvres (converts all MP into evasive skill)
for offensive skill tree you need a smg and a aimed shot (100% crit) kneecap shot (bleed + severe MP penalty) commando (lets you do another burst after kill) and blitz as emergency abillity, about gun pick an steel cat 7.62 or 8.6, install smart module and laser/compesator for best spray and pray gun. Also jaguar is a choice with 5mm, rapid reloader and smart module for best sprayning
OR pick crossbow, marksman (special bolts take no AP) quick pockets AND utility belt (they are vital as good crossbow) take aimed shot feat, kneecap shot and concussive shots for delayning enemy, when you go mid-end game pick elemental bolts and vile weaponry. Keep in mind that crossbows cost a lot in early game and require crafting but in mid game you likey will not have problems with money and ammo
about gear pick NVGS with smart lens (or with adaptive), ninja/hopper tabi boots, tazer as emergency weapon and any stealth tactical vest, they provide good armor against bullets but only one type of resistance, so be prepared to carry a spare vest
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also dont forgot caltrops, flashbangs, tazers, molotovs, electrics and fire bolts, they provide good area denial in most situations
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first off pistols effective only in hands of untrained charaters and they cost a lot to be effective, if you really want a good firepower and stealth you should go crossbows or throwing knifes
crafting is vital in every stage of game but crafting takes important role in mid game to achieve better gear than you may find in shops or from bodies
rapid fire is almost useless if you picked spec ops feat
most vital feats for ninja build is nimble (minus 15% armor penalty plus armor class buff) AND uncanny dodge (gives you 100% chance to dodge melee attacks) and evasive maneuvres (converts all MP into evasive skill)
for offensive skill tree you need a smg and a aimed shot (100% crit) kneecap shot (bleed + severe MP penalty) commando (lets you do another burst after kill) and blitz as emergency abillity, about gun pick an steel cat 7.62 or 8.6, install smart module and laser/compesator for best spray and pray gun. Also jaguar is a choice with 5mm, rapid reloader and smart module for best sprayning
OR pick crossbow, marksman (special bolts take no AP) quick pockets AND utility belt (they are vital as good crossbow) take aimed shot feat, kneecap shot and concussive shots for delayning enemy, when you go mid-end game pick elemental bolts and vile weaponry. Keep in mind that crossbows cost a lot in early game and require crafting but in mid game you likey will not have problems with money and ammo
about gear pick NVGS with smart lens (or with adaptive), ninja/hopper tabi boots, tazer as emergency weapon and any stealth tactical vest, they provide good armor against bullets but only one type of resistance, so be prepared to carry a spare vest
Thanks for your advice but as stated above I am willing to make the investment to go into pistols over SMGs.
Ofc I am open to any suggestions or improvements regarding the build-link I posted above.
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I honestly would not recommend pistol without solid investment in crafting. Unfortunately not weapons were created equal, and pistol is much closer to the lower end (and believe me, i'm saying it with bleeding heart, since i love pistols too). And without crafting they are about half as good, which is you can imagine is...not very good at all. So you have to choose between your aversion to crafting and desire to play with pistols.
Well, that's about it. Hope i was of any help. Good luck and enjoy the game, it's not a perfect one but pretty good at scratching that "old school" itch)
Ok, thanks again.
I feel like I have made my decision then:
http://underrail.info.tm/build/?GQMOCAMKAwXChzIAACjCh8KHeEvChwBfXwAAQQAAAAAAABcBHlsxJlkRKEtOFjkC (http://underrail.info.tm/build/?GQMOCAMKAwXChzIAACjCh8KHeEvChwBfXwAAQQAAAAAAABcBHlsxJlkRKEtOFjkC)
To bring this thread to a close, would that build carry me through?
Okay, you are on to something, but I would consider the following points if I were you:
-Interloper
Lvl2+ feat, requires 7 agility, 20 stealth. Reduces your stealth movement penalty from 45% to 30% I think, and let you retain 15 movement points when you enter combat from stealth, instead of zero.
This is not mandatory for you, as you have an insanely high initiative and should preferably initiate combat without stealth (so you have all your MPs) when you can. However: if you find that you get really tired of the low walking speed in stealth, it is a great quality of life feat. You can save at a levelup, and try it out for a bit to see if you like it.
-Sharpshooter
You want it, as stated above. With critical power, you will get great aimed shots and ambushes. You can take it rather late.
-Execute
I would skip it. If you can immobilize someone at close range, they are pretty much toast anyway. Use rapid fire instead to deal great damage at close range, and save a feat.
-Grenadier
Awesome for you, good that you have it - as you play you will realize that you need those grenades, a lot. 2 turn cooldown instrad of 4 turns is huge, get it at the first opportunity, lvl 4.
Ability points:
Looking good, but perhaps move a point each from INT and AGI over to PER, to increase perception to 11-12. Accuracy is pretty vital for you, as well as increased damage. You will find out if you are comfortable with 10, but is is a bit on the low side for my taste. Also, perception helps with detection, synergy with Paranoia. And you got no traps skill and 3 CON... you want to spot those traps, even with good evasion they will tear you to shreds if you step on the wrong landmine.
But in general you are looking good. The benefit of pistols is your great initiative, so make sure you use your first turn to your best advantage (= chuck your favourite grenade at your enemies and finish the most dangerous enemy first, then retreat into cover)
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Strange, it seems like you are saying that in case of other calibers SMGs are not always superior to pistols. But you can't be saying that. That would be madness.
I think you could make a case for a Hammerer. 5mm does so little damage per shot that you're at the mercy of resist/threshold even with W2C, but a Hammerer, especially a crafted one, is going to pump out enough damage that a special attack will blow through even very high resistances in a way that even burst fire from a SMG won't. I still haven't played enough with specific handgun builds to argue this point strongly, but I do think that a case can be made for the 9mm and .44 Hammerer being buildable to have superior performance in special cases. And of course, with the right skills, feats, and positioning, you can arrange to have special cases arise several times each fight.
But as I mentioned to you earlier in a different thread, my only gun Dominating run was SMG, so I am a proponent of the general superiority of them. I just suspect you can do some very nice things with the right pistol if you've set it up properly.
Ofc I am open to any suggestions or improvements regarding the build-link I posted above.
If you're interested in squeezing a few points out of that build, aside from taking about 50 real points out of Pickpocketing as Mirddin suggested, you've got about 20 more points in Lockpicking than you strictly need. You'll find a small, lightweight knife in your travels that will somewhat improve your ability to pop open locks, and you'll find many lockpicks which will help as well. Plus you may discover that you want to buy and carry around a bunch of food. The stat buffs food offers are very handy when things get tough. 47 real points in Tailoring with 5INT gets you 50 effective Tailoring, which is what you want if you're taking Tailoring for making the improved repair kits.
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Okay, you are on to something, but I would consider the following points if I were you:
-Interloper
Lvl2+ feat, requires 7 agility, 20 stealth. Reduces your stealth movement penalty from 45% to 30% I think, and let you retain 15 movement points when you enter combat from stealth, instead of zero.
This is not mandatory for you, as you have an insanely high initiative and should preferably initiate combat without stealth (so you have all your MPs) when you can. However: if you find that you get really tired of the low walking speed in stealth, it is a great quality of life feat. You can save at a levelup, and try it out for a bit to see if you like it.
-Sharpshooter
You want it, as stated above. With critical power, you will get great aimed shots and ambushes. You can take it rather late.
-Execute
I would skip it. If you can immobilize someone at close range, they are pretty much toast anyway. Use rapid fire instead to deal great damage at close range, and save a feat.
-Grenadier
Awesome for you, good that you have it - as you play you will realize that you need those grenades, a lot. 2 turn cooldown instrad of 4 turns is huge, get it at the first opportunity, lvl 4.
Ability points:
Looking good, but perhaps move a point each from INT and AGI over to PER, to increase perception to 11-12. Accuracy is pretty vital for you, as well as increased damage. You will find out if you are comfortable with 10, but is is a bit on the low side for my taste. Also, perception helps with detection, synergy with Paranoia. And you got no traps skill and 3 CON... you want to spot those traps, even with good evasion they will tear you to shreds if you step on the wrong landmine.
But in general you are looking good. The benefit of pistols is your great initiative, so make sure you use your first turn to your best advantage (= chuck your favourite grenade at your enemies and finish the most dangerous enemy first, then retreat into cover)
Ok, but what would you skip if I am to take Interloper for example. You only crossed out Execute, but suggested two new feats to put in.
What is your opinion on the viability of stealth without all the stealth feats? The larger caliber pistols can't be silenced anyways, so I am thinking...
I think you could make a case for a Hammerer.
I see. From what I've read from the Wiki Hammerer can't be silenced because it's not 5mm caliber.
Won't this render my whole stealth approach useless?
Would you therefore recommend to move some points from stealth over to chemistry for grenade crafting or electronics for the EMP stuff?
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I see. From what I've read from the Wiki Hammerer can't be silenced because it's not 5mm caliber.
Won't this render my whole stealth approach useless?
Would you therefore recommend to move some points from stealth over to chemistry for grenade crafting or electronics for the EMP stuff?
Sorry, that first part wasn't meant for you. I was splitting that post between replying to Mirddin and replying to you. Others have given you good advice about your choice of weapons, and your build looked pretty good. I was just pointing out that if you wanted to free up some points to do other things, you had a few places where you have more points invested than you need.
I know the game pretty well as psi, but I'm not the expert about gun builds. You seem to have a good idea for your character, and if you really are planning to play on Normal, then you'll do just fine. Normal difficulty will maybe kill you a few times until you know what to expect, but it's forgiving enough that you don't have to optimize too heavily if you don't want.
I'll give you a spoiler-free bit of non-character advice, though - rekindle those old-school habits of saving your game in different slots. There are two points in the game where you can really put yourself in a no-return kind of situation. It's the worst bit of design in the game because it isn't clear enough that you won't have a way out if you continue following the story. One point is in Core City. The other is in the Institute. Don't just rely on quicksave/autosave. More than one person has shown up on the Steam forums, saying they uninstalled UnderRail in anger because they got stuck with no way to recover.
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As others said, lower your Pickpocketing. Hardest check i know of needs about 120 and is unnecessary for someone with that high hacking. I wouldn't go over 100 effective skill.
You can also take a few points from Hacking to leave it at 130. You want that much without any hacking tool for hardest check.
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Sorry, that first part wasn't meant for you. I was splitting that post between replying to Mirddin and replying to you. Others have given you good advice about your choice of weapons, and your build looked pretty good. I was just pointing out that if you wanted to free up some points to do other things, you had a few places where you have more points invested than you need.
It was useful information to me anyways so I still want to know:
Considering my build I have already planned out a heavy investment into pistol feats so it would be kind of dumb not to take the best weapon available for my build, wouldn't it?
My question therefore is if it's still worth investing into stealth this much if the weapon cannot be silenced or does it contradict the idea of stealth gameplay?
I'll give you a spoiler-free bit of non-character advice, though - rekindle those old-school habits of saving your game in different slots. There are two points in the game where you can really put yourself in a no-return kind of situation. It's the worst bit of design in the game because it isn't clear enough that you won't have a way out if you continue following the story. One point is in Core City. The other is in the Institute. Don't just rely on quicksave/autosave. More than one person has shown up on the Steam forums, saying they uninstalled UnderRail in anger because they got stuck with no way to recover.
I will do this.
I've read already about this on destroyor's steam FAQ guide but thank you very much for the reminder.
As others said, lower your Pickpocketing. Hardest check i know of needs about 120 and is unnecessary for someone with that high hacking. I wouldn't go over 100 effective skill.
You can also take a few points from Hacking to leave it at 130. You want that much without any hacking tool for hardest check.
Thank you. I will optimize according to your suggestions.
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Considering my build I have already planned out a heavy investment into pistol feats so it would be kind of dumb not to take the best weapon available for my build, wouldn't it?
My question therefore is if it's still worth investing into stealth this much if the weapon cannot be silenced or does it contradict the idea of stealth gameplay?
Yes, invest into stealth. Stealth is a very powerful tool. Your character has two hands. You can hold a stealthy weapon in one hand, and a loud weapon in the other. Once a fight is well underway, especially if you've used a grenade or something, you've made so much noise that it doesn't much matter how loud your gun is. So have one weapon for pewpew and another for ending things fast and loud.
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Okay, you are on to something, but I would consider the following points if I were you:
-Interloper
Lvl2+ feat, requires 7 agility, 20 stealth. Reduces your stealth movement penalty from 45% to 30% I think, and let you retain 15 movement points when you enter combat from stealth, instead of zero.
This is not mandatory for you, as you have an insanely high initiative and should preferably initiate combat without stealth (so you have all your MPs) when you can. However: if you find that you get really tired of the low walking speed in stealth, it is a great quality of life feat. You can save at a levelup, and try it out for a bit to see if you like it.
-Sharpshooter
You want it, as stated above. With critical power, you will get great aimed shots and ambushes. You can take it rather late.
-Execute
I would skip it. If you can immobilize someone at close range, they are pretty much toast anyway. Use rapid fire instead to deal great damage at close range, and save a feat.
-Grenadier
Awesome for you, good that you have it - as you play you will realize that you need those grenades, a lot. 2 turn cooldown instrad of 4 turns is huge, get it at the first opportunity, lvl 4.
Ability points:
Looking good, but perhaps move a point each from INT and AGI over to PER, to increase perception to 11-12. Accuracy is pretty vital for you, as well as increased damage. You will find out if you are comfortable with 10, but is is a bit on the low side for my taste. Also, perception helps with detection, synergy with Paranoia. And you got no traps skill and 3 CON... you want to spot those traps, even with good evasion they will tear you to shreds if you step on the wrong landmine.
But in general you are looking good. The benefit of pistols is your great initiative, so make sure you use your first turn to your best advantage (= chuck your favourite grenade at your enemies and finish the most dangerous enemy first, then retreat into cover)
Ok, but what would you skip if I am to take Interloper for example. You only crossed out Execute, but suggested two new feats to put in.
What is your opinion on the viability of stealth without all the stealth feats? The larger caliber pistols can't be silenced anyways, so I am thinking...
Well, my personal opinion only, but I would drop Sprint. I know some guys swear by it for all circumstances, but I feel the same about Interloper.
Interloper gives you faster stealth, and a few MPs (15) when attacking from stealth. Sprint you can activate on your turn, and get 30 MPs for 2 turns.
I love moving around in stealth all the time, so Interloper is great quality of life.
Because your initiative is so good, as said before, you will almost always move first, and should try to start combat without stealth. You will then have all MPs avilable from your great agility and tabi boots, and that should be enough to get into cover. You are not melee who has to move to the enemy, or SMG who need to get into point blank range to hit something, you can shoot from a distance and go to nearby cover, so Sprint is kind of redundant as far as I see it.
Stealth is amazing because it enables you to enter an unknown hot zone undetected, and scout out the enemies, before entering the combat on your own terms. If one or more enemy has a patrol pattern taking them away from the rest, if there are roaming enemies like dogs etc, you can sneak up to them out of sight from the rest, enter combat and finish them off with your silenced weapon. (This is where your high burst damage special attacks shine.) It is great to be able to assassinate a lone enemy in one room without alerting all the rest, it makes a real difference to fight fewer enemies at once. Also, you can steal everything that is not nailed down, in plain sight of people.
It also feels cool to assassinate someone with a silenced weapon.
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I see. From what I've read from the Wiki Hammerer can't be silenced because it's not 5mm caliber.
Won't this render my whole stealth approach useless?
Would you therefore recommend to move some points from stealth over to chemistry for grenade crafting or electronics for the EMP stuff?
You will need both guns that i mentioned. Every time you attack someone you break your stealth anyway, silenced or not. Silenced mean that if you have more enemies on the map that are not in line of sight to you, they won't hear you shooting someone. There is a noise mechanics in this game, so that's why sometimes you need silenced pistols so you don't have to fight whole map of enemies. Most of the time though you just gonna shoot stuff with your .44
You don't really need it, i'd say you gonna be ok with what you have. You will find grenades on enemies and stores anyway, it's just you won't find most powerful of them that way, but grenades are plenty powerful already, so it's not THAT important.
Also, stealth is powerful, invest into it. As you noticed, i never said that you should drop stealth and almost no one in his right mind will say that to you about this game) And stealth doesn't really need those feats. The only time i took Interloper was when playing sniper and while it was relatively nice, it wasn't something i really needed or missed in other builds.
Ok, but what would you skip if I am to take Interloper for example. You only crossed out Execute, but suggested two new feats to put in.
Welcome to building a pistol character.
Well, my personal opinion only, but I would drop Sprint. I know some guys swear by it for all circumstances, but I feel the same about Interloper.
Interloper gives you faster stealth, and a few MPs (15) when attacking from stealth. Sprint you can activate on your turn, and get 30 MPs for 2 turns.
I love moving around in stealth all the time, so Interloper is great quality of life.
Quality of life feats are not for pistol builds.
I think you could make a case for a Hammerer. 5mm does so little damage per shot that you're at the mercy of resist/threshold even with W2C, but a Hammerer, especially a crafted one, is going to pump out enough damage that a special attack will blow through even very high resistances in a way that even burst fire from a SMG won't.
Nope, you can't. Sorry, i don't want to be too antagonistic, it's just that i made at least three successful Hard runs with different pistol character (special attack route, critical route, critical route without crafting or OH GOD WHY DID I DO THAT route, as i love to call it) and i'm fully aware about strength and weaknesses of that particular weapon.
Also, resistances don't care about how strong your attacks is) Thresholds do. If we are talking about resistances, than weapon with higher DPR still gonna be with higher DPR no matter what.
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Quality of life feats are not for pistol builds.
Heh that is hard core, I love my quality of life. No way I'm ninjaing my way through the majority of Underrail without Interloper. Same thing goes for Pack Rathound btw, 3 STR needs it, trap user or not. And Trap Expert if you are into traps at all, 10 seconds cooldown on disarming your minefields is not cool.
I happily sacrifice stuff like Kneecap Shot, Sprint, Point Shot if I have to, for those.
But since you have used pistols quite a bit, did you go for a sniper rifle as backup weapon? Reading this thread has made me polish a pistol/sniper/traps/stealth assassin type of character, that I will take on a Hard Oddities run. Like to get some input.
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Heh that is hard core, I love my quality of life. No way I'm ninjaing my way through the majority of Underrail without Interloper. Same thing goes for Pack Rathound btw, 3 STR needs it, trap user or not. And Trap Expert if you are into traps at all, 10 seconds cooldown on disarming your minefields is not cool.
It's not "hard core" it's called optimization. Interloper's effect on your speed while noticeable, is not that substantial, speedhack is way better anyway. Careful inventory management and infused pig leather boots help you with inventory capacity problem and trap expert was never even a consideration for me even on trap heavy characters. In combat you gonna use quick tinkering, or you prepare beforehand in such a way that they can't avoid stepping into trap if they want ot get close to you. Also, new version dropped cooldowns on traps anyway, so there are even less reasons to use this feat.
I happily sacrifice stuff like Kneecap Shot, Sprint, Point Shot if I have to, for those.
Then you are sacrificing your core efficiency for dubious gains. Some weapons can afford that and some not. Pistols are of the later.
But since you have used pistols quite a bit, did you go for a sniper rifle as backup weapon?
If you are using sniper rifles, it's more likely then will become your main weapon, even you wanted to use pistols. Pistols only.
That actually explains easiness in your sacrifice of important feats (except Sprint, which is optional). After all, with the use of SR, you might as well not take any pistol feats at all, except Gunslinger for initiative boost.
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Heh that is hard core, I love my quality of life. No way I'm ninjaing my way through the majority of Underrail without Interloper. Same thing goes for Pack Rathound btw, 3 STR needs it, trap user or not. And Trap Expert if you are into traps at all, 10 seconds cooldown on disarming your minefields is not cool.
It's not "hard core" it's called optimization. Interloper's effect on your speed while noticeable, is not that substantial, speedhack is way better anyway. Careful inventory management and infused pig leather boots help you with inventory capacity problem and trap expert was never even a consideration for me even on trap heavy characters. In combat you gonna use quick tinkering, or you prepare beforehand in such a way that they can't avoid stepping into trap if they want ot get close to you. Also, new version dropped cooldowns on traps anyway, so there are even less reasons to use this feat.
I happily sacrifice stuff like Kneecap Shot, Sprint, Point Shot if I have to, for those.
Then you are sacrificing your core efficiency for dubious gains. Some weapons can afford that and some not. Pistols are of the later.
But since you have used pistols quite a bit, did you go for a sniper rifle as backup weapon?
If you are using sniper rifles, it's more likely then will become your main weapon, even you wanted to use pistols. Pistols only.
That actually explains easiness in your sacrifice of important feats (except Sprint, which is optional). After all, with the use of SR, you might as well not take any pistol feats at all, except Gunslinger for initiative boost.
Sure, I dont use speedhack. If I did, there would be little use for Interloper or Pack Rathound or Trap Expert of course, the external program will provide the quality of life we want. With the normal game speed, those feats are valuable.
About the sniper, yes, that can double as primary weapon. The pistol is still good, as silenced assassin weapon, at point blank range, moving and firing in/out of cover, and for great initiative.
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Sure, I dont use speedhack. If I did, there would be little use for Interloper or Pack Rathound or Trap Expert of course, the external program will provide the quality of life we want. With the normal game speed, those feats are valuable.
About the sniper, yes, that can double as primary weapon. The pistol is still good, as silenced assassin weapon, at point blank range, moving and firing in/out of cover, and for great initiative.
Correct me if i'm wrong but i can't find where i wrote about dismissing pack rathound because of speedhack. I said - careful inventory management and gear that provides almost same benefit as the feat. Interloper speed boost is not that great that i would sacrifice my combat efficiency even without speedhack. Not on pistols.
So, basically, you have sniper with pistol as a side arm. SMG would be better in this case anyway. Better damage and can deal with more than one enemy in one turn.
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Sure, I dont use speedhack. If I did, there would be little use for Interloper or Pack Rathound or Trap Expert of course, the external program will provide the quality of life we want. With the normal game speed, those feats are valuable.
About the sniper, yes, that can double as primary weapon. The pistol is still good, as silenced assassin weapon, at point blank range, moving and firing in/out of cover, and for great initiative.
Correct me if i'm wrong but i can't find where i wrote about dismissing pack rathound because of speedhack. I said - careful inventory management and gear that provides almost same benefit as the feat. Interloper speed boost is not that great that i would sacrifice my combat efficiency even without speedhack. Not on pistols.
So, basically, you have sniper with pistol as a side arm. SMG would be better in this case anyway. Better damage and can deal with more than one enemy in one turn.
Never said you dismissed Pack Rathound because of anything. If you have speedhack, you can zip around back and forth more easily, so less need for inventory management and Pack Rathound, that is why I mentioned it.
I would also prefer SMG as sidearm, of course. It is a lot better than pistol at raw damage, *especially* silenced. But the burst fire feats have little synergy with the sniper, and feats are tight already. The initiative from gunslinger is also very valuable. A glass cannon is pretty screwed if he is caught out of stealth and lose initiative.
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Nope, you can't. Sorry, i don't want to be too antagonistic, it's just that i made at least three successful Hard runs with different pistol character
Well, similarly I don't want to be too antagonistic, but Hard runs are no measure of success. Beating Hard once you know the game is probably doable with anything short of intentionally weakened trick builds. Getting as far as the Mushroom Forest, at the very least, certainly is. And you do use cheats so your experience with the game is different than the real game.
Now, your Dominating win, that's what makes me take your opinion seriously regarding firearms.
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Well, similarly I don't want to be too antagonistic, but Hard runs are no measure of success. Beating Hard once you know the game is probably doable with anything short of intentionally weakened trick builds.
I never tried to put it as a measure of success, just a measure of me knowing pistol builds very well by the virtue of playing them extensively in different ways. And you, by your own admission, didn't. And they can't compare to SMGs, no matter what caliber.
Also, speedhack is not really cheat, since it doesn't make game easier, just quicker. Sometimes it can actually make it harder, since you have less time to react to things.
Now, your Dominating win, that's what makes me take your opinion seriously regarding firearms.
Which is kinda weird since i won Dominating with a sledgehammer build, not a firearm build.
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If you have speedhack, you can zip around back and forth more easily, so less need for inventory management and Pack Rathound, that is why I mentioned it.
You can, but i usually don't do that. I never return for another portion of loot and almost never travel encumbered (the only exception is when i transfer components from SGS locker to house in Core City). I always consider carefully what i take with me, and money showers you in any case, so i never felt the need to walk for additional portion of loot.
I would also prefer SMG as sidearm, of course. It is a lot better than pistol at raw damage, *especially* silenced. But the burst fire feats have little synergy with the sniper, and feats are tight already. The initiative from gunslinger is also very valuable. A glass cannon is pretty screwed if he is caught out of stealth and lose initiative.
What pistol feats have synergy with sniper rifle then? Kneecap Shot, Steadfast Aim, Point Shot, Rapid Fire, Execute - neither of them works with Sniper. The only one i can name is Aimed Shot, but it doesn't really matter, since virtually all sniper builds take it anyway. You might as well just take Gunslinger, keep the pistol that you get from the start of the game and arm it in fights like Arena fights, Black Crawler base fights and so on to get that +7 initiative bonus and rest of the time you put SMG in second weapon slot. Sniper is the only build that can afford to take feats for both sidearms, since he needs just 4 of them for the primary weapon function, so no, feats are not tight on snipers. Also, i'm not sure if sniper could be called glass cannon, unless you purposefully make him so, since you actually have some spare points to put in Con and paired with evasion/dodge he is not that glassy.
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What pistol feats have synergy with sniper rifle then?
Sharpshooter, that's it. The bonus 30% critical damage when focused applies to sniper rifles and pistols, but not SMGs. Can be useful, especially if you combine Ambush with a silenced pistol.
That said pistols still require more feats than SMGs to be an effective sniper sidearm. SMGs only really need Spec Ops and Kneecap Shot while pistols need Gunslinger, Kneecap Shot, Rapid Fire and could use taking Point Shot. You could drop Rapid Fire, but I don't reccomend it, it's a great feat for pistols that brings their damage output to an adequate level. I can never afford to take Opportunist and Execute on sniper builds.
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Sharpshooter, that's it.
Oh, right. Somehow completely forgot about it.
SMGs only really need Spec Ops and Kneecap Shot while pistols need Gunslinger, Kneecap Shot, Rapid Fire and could use taking Point Shot.
I'd say Commando would be very nice for SMG as sidearm. And if i invest into pistol feats i always take both Rapid Fire and Point Shot, since being able to make full 4 shots at the price of 2 is very nice.
I can never afford to take Opportunist and Execute on sniper builds.
Honestly, for a sniper build their usefulness is kinda nonexistent. I'll think of taking QoL feats like Interloper or Burglar before i do about taking those feats.
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Ok, I did some further research and came to the conclusion that I am going to play SMG.
This way I feel I have way more feats open for adjustment to my liking since -- from what I gathered -- I only really need SpecOps, Commando and high dex (which I have anyway).
The cost-benefit relation for pistols seems just terrible. :(
Maybe they buff it with the expansion, who knows.
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Remember Expertise as well. Extra damage per non-critical bullet is a major part of the SMG appeal, especially the silenced (low base damage) variant.
You already have Sprint, wich is good as you need to be rather close, sometimes point blank, to hit well. Lastly, consider Opportunist+Suppressive Fire, as the latter provide a slow-effect, the combonation making your bursts do permanent 15% more damage.
SMGs are really strong, though if you are doing only light crafting, perhaps get mechanics to 50 or so, and chemistry to 20, to make repair kits (weapons degrade rather fast with) and more importantly armor-piercing bullets, to overcome your main problem with mechanical threshold/resistance.
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Ok, I did some further research and came to the conclusion that I am going to play SMG.
This way I feel I have way more feats open for adjustment to my liking since -- from what I gathered -- I only really need SpecOps, Commando and high dex (which I have anyway).
The cost-benefit relation for pistols seems just terrible. :(
Yeah, it's kinda like that, unfortunately.
For SMG i would also consider taking Suppressive Fire + Opportunist. Suppressive fire gives debuffs for everyone in the cone of fire, and that debuff will proc Opportunist damage increase.
Maybe they buff it with the expansion, who knows.
We can hope
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Remember Expertise as well. Extra damage per non-critical bullet is a major part of the SMG appeal, especially the silenced (low base damage) variant.
You already have Sprint, wich is good as you need to be rather close, sometimes point blank, to hit well. Lastly, consider Opportunist+Suppressive Fire, as the latter provide a slow-effect, the combonation making your bursts do permanent 15% more damage.
SMGs are really strong, though if you are doing only light crafting, perhaps get mechanics to 50 or so, and chemistry to 20, to make repair kits (weapons degrade rather fast with) and more importantly armor-piercing bullets, to overcome your main problem with mechanical threshold/resistance.
For SMG i would also consider taking Suppressive Fire + Opportunist. Suppressive fire gives debuffs for everyone in the cone of fire, and that debuff will proc Opportunist damage increase.
Thanks to both of you for the sustained help.
I came up with this build and started playing yesterday:
http://underrail.info.tm/build/?GQMPCAMLAwPChzIAACjCh8KHXy48I2BkKChJAAAAAAAATyQnHRY3GSZJQSg7OQ
(http://underrail.info.tm/build/?GQMPCAMLAwPChzIAACjCh8KHXy48I2BkKChJAAAAAAAATyQnHRY3GSZJQSg7OQ)
The feats are somewhat randomly sorted.
In regard to the crafting I am unsure on how high Mechanics, Electronics and Tailoring need to be for sufficient stealth gear so the numbers maybe be not optimal.
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In regard to the crafting I am unsure on how high Mechanics, Electronics and Tailoring need to be for sufficient stealth gear so the numbers maybe be not optimal.
Stealth by itself is not really dependent on crafting. The difference in stealth bonuses between gear you can craft and what you can find/buy is not that big to warrant investing in crafting by itself. So if you don't want ot bother with crafting, just make sure those skills reach effective 50 for you to be able to craft repair kits. As a side effect you'll be able to craft Taser with you electronics skill, and that's pretty good
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Not sure what you need 40 points i biology for, though. I mean you'll probably be able to craft Jumping bean, but that's it.
Other than that, the build looks fine. More than viable.
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I hope the expansion will buff throwing-only build, assassin (knife) and firearm pistol, in this order.