Underrail Forum
Underrail => General => Topic started by: Volgair on October 09, 2013, 11:16:46 am
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Picked up this game on Steam about two weeks ago and have thrown all of my off hours to date at it. For having so wonderfully wasted my time, I will return the favor by listing below all of the builds I "completed'" the game with, as it currently exists. (1.9.1) In addition to my thoughts about them, in hopes this information is found useful. I will then amplify that information with stuff off the top of my head take it or leave it, you wont hurt my feelings either way. (You could also let me mod for it :F)
-Game Impression Overall: It filled a fallout shaped hole that I have been looking to fill for quite some time. The difficulty of the mobs combined with the scarcity of things to kill them with force you to not only think about "will this kill him," but also "will I have enough to survive the next encounter." This is a fantastic foundation for what looks to be a quality and evolving product with a potential for a future cult following.
-Builds played to Completion: (Not all the builds I tried or conceptualized)
Think Tank (First Finished and Favorite)
- Primary Defense: Metal Armor
- Primary Offence: Psi -or- Unarmed/Hammer
Marksman Rogue (Second Finished and simply not my style (Note:1))
Primary Defense: Mitigation via Dodge and Evasion
Primary Offence: Crossbow -or- SMG
Commando (First Character last Finished(Note:2))
Primary Defense: Mid Weight Armors and Mitigation
Primary Offence: Sniper -or- Assault Rifle
Start -> End (LV 12) Primary Stats Start -> End (LV 11) Primary Stats Start -> End (LV 12) Primary Stats
- Str----9->10 (+1@4) -Str----3 ->3 -Str----7->7
- Dex---3->3 -Dex---5 ->5 -Dex---3->3
- Agi----3->3 -Agi----10 ->10 -Agi----5->5
- Con---6->7 (+1@8) -Con---4 ->4 -Con---5->6 (+1@8)
- Per----3->3 -Per----10->12(+1@4,8) -Per----10->12 (+1@4,12)
- Wil----10->10 -Wil----3->3 -Wil----3->3
- Int----6->7 (+1@12) -Int----5->5 -Int----7->7
Secondary Skills Secondary Skills Secondary Skills
- Melee -Guns -Guns
- Mechanics -Crossbows -Dodge
- Electronics -Dodge -Evasion
- Biology -Evasion -Stealth
- Tailoring -Stealth -Hacking
- Thought Control -Hacking -Mechanic
- Psychokinesis -Lockpicking -Tailoring
- Mercantile -Mercantile -Mercantile
Feats-Level Obtained Feats-Level Obtained Feats-Level Obtained
Conditioning-1 Nimble-1 Conditioning-1
Opportunist-1 Aimed Shot-1 Aimed Shot-1
Psi Empathy-1 Psi Empathy-1 Psi Empathy-1
Doctor- 2 Recklessness-2 Nimble-2
Psychosis- 4 Kneecap Shot-4 Recklessness-4
Locus of Control- 6 Marksman-6 Full Auto-6
Premeditation- 8 Evasive Maneuvers-8 Sniper-8
Power Management- 10 Sharpshooter-10 Evasive Manuvers- 10
Crippling Strike- 12 ------------------------ Sharpshooter- 12
-Playing as: (Strategy employed and impression of the game while using this skill set)
-Thinktank- (By another name Battle Mage.)
-Leveling- Weak at the start, very powerful after level 10 with properly crafted gear.
-Gear- Go Heavy or die trying. Tungstensteel Chest and boots with a Psi amplification Helmet of your choosing.
-Access Difficulty for Ammunition- Low, you only need 4 things Bandages, Health injectors, Mana Injectors, and Maintenance Kits.
-Access Difficulty for Gear- Moderate/low, you have the luxury crafting exactly what you want, but have to spend a fair bit of time going from vendor to vendor to find what you are looking for.
-Average Cost per Kill- Moderate, Mana is fairly cheap and gets cheaper in terms of DMG/MP the more you invest in it. Batteries and Repair kits for the hammer are expensive but easy to obtain.
-Strategy- You cannot stealth, and have no movement AP so you must rely on smart placement before an encounter and the use of the enter button to grant you the first attack. Use corners to bunch enemies up so you can smash them with Electrokinesis while they stay in range of your Melee. CC as a whole, especially stuns are a key feature of this build.
-Strengths- Has as much cheap utility (AoE, CC, Gear Crafting, capable of ripping off vent covers) as one can pack on a character. Fairly predictable per turn HP loss. Healthy damage potential.
-Weaknesses- Must engage all fights, often with unfavorable circumstances due to not being invested in stealth. Cannot see mines or hidden objects. Cannot Hack or Lockpick. Will always take the hit, you have a higher DT but you will never not take the hit.
-Marksman Rogue-
-Leveling- Easy at the start, begins falling off after GMS.
-Gear- *Light* vest and boots, or just vest if you find a 15% encumbrance chest piece that is better then both combined. Crossbow, SMG with forward grip.
-Access Difficulty for Ammunition- High, especially for special bolts.
-Access Difficulty for Gear- High, this character is dependent entirely on drops or vendors. While this is made slightly easier by picking locks and hacking. Crafting is the better option.
-Average Cost per Kill- High... bolts are cheap, special bolts are not. The SMG Gets an inferior performance out of ammunition compared to other platforms.
-Strategy- Use stealth to set yourself up in the environment ideally, and aim to kill the highest damage potential first turn. CC Using Shock and Fire bolts. Use kneecap shot to kite while waiting for CD's.
-Strengths- Nothing in the Environment will stop you from proceeding. You are the master of Stealth.
-Weaknesses- Combat strategy depends on rare bolts. A stiff breeze aimed in your general direction will kill you. Absolutely NO room for slop or flexibility in combat strategy. Recklessness feels like it increases the chance to be crit more then 3%.
-Commando-
-Leveling- Easy at the start, difficulty 5-7 until you have a sniper AND Assault Rifle then it grants you a fair bit of slop.
-Gear- Reinforced Flak Vest, Metal boots, Goggles Bonus Perception. Sniper with AR
-Access Difficulty for Ammunition- Moderate, dependent on merchants. Pick up EMP Grenades and Flash Bangs when you can to keep a stock between 2 and 15
-Access Difficulty for Gear- Low, you can craft every thing you need with the exception of Goggles and the advantage of crafting those yourself is limited.
-Average Cost per Kill- Moderate, the monster alpha of the Sniper and the Burst damage of the AR make for fast cheap kills.
-Strategy- Use stealth to set yourself up in the environment ideally just outside of CQC, and aim to kill the highest damage potential in order every turn. Open with the sniper finish with the AR. Use grenades at close range against Machines, open with a flash bang if out numbered 3 to 1 or greater first round. Rinse and repeat.
-Strengths- Can Stealth and Hack. Consistent High single Target Damage. Can dodge and evade as well as mitigate fairly well with medium armor.
-Weaknesses- Not much in the way of utility. Cannot open ventilation. Recklessness feels like it increases the chance to be crit more then 3%.
-Underwhelming to Overpowered
(Scored from 1 to 10, 4-6 is balanced)
-Armor/ Mitigation
- Light Armors (Note: 3) There is currently nothing I found 'Endgame' to fill this roll, either the nimble skill needs to be increased to reduce 18-20% so you can include some of the lighter mid-encumbrance Armor such as flack in this category. Or ideally a more expensive suit can be implemented adhering to the you cant hurt what you cant hit mentality. Should this suit exist, it would not be a bad thing to also incentive it with a small bonus to AP passively, and more when powered. (Note:6) (2/10)
- Mid-Encumbrance (Note:4) Armors are pretty good they could do for a higher non mechanic resistance, but the DT is right about where you would expect it to be and you can still partially rely on dodge and evasion. (6/10)
- Heavy Armors (Note:5) A slightly higher DT would not hurt given that should you wear it, you have no choice but to be a 'buffer tank' and there is only one method of combat healing(injections), which has a fairly long CD. The potential this armor has for Pugilism or Melee in general at the high end is fantastic. (5/10)
-Dodge/Evasion rather underwhelming even at high levels of investment. Given that should you invest in them in the first place, you are taking away potential from both offence and utility in order to be able to even at best partially rely on them. Most of the issues from this goes back to what I suggested to earlier with regards to light armor. (4/10)
-Offensive Weapon
-Unarmed- Free!!! In this Game that means something. Especially when combined with metal armors and/or Force Emission. (5/5)
-Pistol- Easy to use, Only takes one hand making it a good ranged offhand for Riot Gear. (5/5) (I never look at a pistol as anything more then an offhand)
-SMG- Also easy to use like the pistol with a Burst option for people not strong enough to use an AR... and that is really what this weapon boils down to. (4/10)
-Crossbow- The Utility of thrown weapons or Psi abilities with out the need for Dexterity or Will. This weapon would be great if they made special bolts a little more common from vendors (4/10)
-Sniper- Hits like a bus but suffers from an absolute lack of utility. I usually shot it twice at the start of an encounter to deal with the hardest hitting least armored target and then used other means to dispatch my enemies. (4/10)
-Energy/Chemical Pistols- A neat alternative, but i didn't use these much because as the game currently exists they are weaker then their chemical expansion based counterparts, but I imagine with the later addition of shields that this will change. To a case by case basis. (3/10)
-Assault Rifle- Burst Beast mode if you can carry It and have the 'Full Auto' Feat... Enough said. (6/10)
-Hammer- Ignores the majority of Damage Thresh hold and with a little battery juice can provide more then a fair bit of AOE. (6/10)
-Knife- Needs high Dexterity investment to be useful, Unfortunately 'Cut-Throat' feat only effects humans. (4/10)
-Combat Glove- More useful then the Combat Knife in terms of raw damage potential and with the Pneumatic Hammer added during creation, It can be used as a form of CC. Also unlike the knife has a bonus of not being absolutely dependent on Dexterity. Unfortunately can not be used with Force Emission like unarmed. (5/5)
-Thrown- Where to begin... They do a little more then their Psi Counterpart in terms of damage or CC but at a FAR greater expense and access difficulty in terms of replenishing your stocks. The only advantage is that they are not limited by CD or GCD so you can spam them.(3/10)
-Traps- I will start by admitting a bias in regards to non-flexible weapons platforms requiring premeditation to be effective. I see their potential for usefulness, but rarely if ever do I actually do any thing with them. Unless its an encounter I have had to replay multiple times. Making me, and most any one that uses this weapon type into what I suspect as some form of failure based fortune teller. In my opinion the best thing about the trap skill is making a few extra credits knowing how to disable the ones on the field left by enemies. That said, my main issue with the weapon sub class is the added fault of having all the same issues as Thrown weapons amplified by the difficulty of accurately kiting your enemies into them with out killing yourself. (2/10)
-Psi
-General- I will start with the two most OP things about Psi skills. Psi skills do not miss, or decay. That in addition to the damage and utility of Psi abilites scale only with skill and no other factor, so you don't have to worry about things such as weapon quality, ammunition availability or the amplifying effects of enhancements used during construction, that one piece of equipment may have over another. You are also not limited in the ability to switch between or mix and and match ideal properties from any of the schools except by CD and feat amplification. I would move to add a 'mental stability' bar (Note:7) as well as a 'limited' (6-10) combat ready psi AND skills bar where every thing out side of that incurs an AP penalty. A separate also limited bar for consumables, as well as a change to way the weapons in combat are made available to the player. Utility ammunition to fit the situation more appropriately, with comparable flexibility, more on this in later segments. (8/10) No joke, the psi schools as a whole are OP
-Thought Control- (8/10) Grants access to the single most powerful feat in the game Locus of Control (LoC)
-Neural Overload- Single Target, cheap, fair damage ignores resistance being skilled in this makes the advantage of Force Emission a moot point. (6/10) (7 with LoC)
-Frighten- Long Cheap Crowd Control that does no damage. Causes them to run potentially pulling more adds, damage does not break the effect (6/10) (8 with LoC)
-Mental Breakdown- Long cheap CC that does no damage, reduces resolve and increases damage of next psi ability. Shorter duration then Frighten but Enemies do not move (7/10) (8 with LoC)
-Bilocation- Extremely Expensive, hard hitting DoT (5/10) (8 with LoC)(10 with LoC stacked with Premeditation)
-Psychokinesis-
- Telekinetic Punch- Expensive, Hard Hitting single target with a stun. (5/10)
- Force Field- Its Rare to find a use for this that is not better served by using one of the other available CC's... (5/10)
- Electrokinesis- Best spamable AoE in the game with a stun to primary target (7/10)
- Force Emission- ok at best assuming you are invested in Melee, AND wearing Metal Armor... has a 5% chance to miss that no other psi abilities do . Less Damage per MP then Neural overload or Cryokinesis. Could be made much better if it was usable with the damage added by Combat Gloves. (4/10)
-Metathermics-
- Cryokinesis- Strongest Single target attack in the game, similar to a sniper rifle but much cheaper to use. (7/10)
- Pyrokinesis- Worst AoE in the game. I need to test if the throwing skill modifies accuracy (Note:8 ) it was not reliable. (3/10)
- Cryostasis- Fantastic CC and when combined with Cryogenic Induction can allow for a consistant one turn kill of most mobs. (6/10)
- Pyrokinetic Stream- Highest damage potential of all AoE's but falls short of comparison to Electrokinesis due to the absence of consistent CC. The Pyromaniac Feat helps make up for that but not entirely. (5/10) (6 with Pyromaniac)
(Note: 1) My "style" is to be as subtle as a hammer, and made of the same material.
(Note: 2) The commando was my first attempt at a character, while it was doing fine once I got to junkyard and laid eyes upon TungstenSteel Armor I Immediately (After looking up and reading about encumbrance) re-rolled to play through as the 'Think Tank.' I later finished the 'Commando' off just to see how it compared to the underwhelming 'Marksman Rouge'.
(Note: 3) Body armor with an encumbrance of 10 to 12, and a boot with an encumbrance of 3 or less
(Note: 4) Body armor with an encumbrance of 13 to 45, and a boot with an encumbrance of 4-5
(Note: 5) Body armor with an encumbrance of 46 or greater, and a boot/ helmet with an encumbrance of 6 or greater
(Note:6) I have never been able to craft Leather armor out of the Mutant Dog hides, while I'm sure it would be better in terms of resistance to its nature, it still fails to balance the difference in potential going from light to mid.
(Note:7) Think of it as Brain durability... some kind of slide bar with negative effects with the more sanity you loose to make it comparable or worse then with the cost of weapon decay... Reduced Psi damage, will save reduction, int reduction, fine motor control (dex)
(Note:8 ) All toons that had Pyrokinesis available had no notable reason for throwing skills.
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More coming, Give me a bit.
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I think you are being slightly unfair towards Psi abillities but maybe because you never tried to use it in the same way I have.
Telekinectic punch is one of the best abillities. The cost of it isn't that expensive and most importantly the action points is just 15, it allows to fit in between any spells, in fact you can land an electrokinesis with the telekinectic punch for 2 targets stunned in one round and loads of damage. These are my most used 2 abillities as a psiker.
Forcefield is incredibly powerful, you may dismiss it but it is incredibly good, especially with the feat to make it last one turn longer. In most cases you can put yourself in a place where the force field will completly stop enemies from comming at you for 3 rounds. Now why is this awesome? combine that with bilocation. in fact premiditation, locus of control if there is several high threat humanoid targets and bilocation. Then block the enemy's way for 3 turns with force field, just brutally effective. In fact, bilocation against mutants which is by far the worst opponent you'll ever face works incredibly well. They will survive the doppleganger but on very low life. Throw one more psi abillity at them and they die.
Pyrokinesis might not be a huge amount of damage. Certainly it is no mk5 grenade but it does a very fair amount of damage and while it can miss the precise location where you throw which still has fair chances of hitting and deals a good amount of damage. Sometimes it is also a much better alternative than an electrokinesis if you want to make sure it won't accidentaly hit the wrong target.
For the most part it's more fair to judge a Psi abillity based on the action points it takes and the potential it carries over it's psi-cost. Psi-cost means almost nothing with shroomhead.
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Very useful feedback. I'll wait with the comments until part 2. :)
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No, it's not as strong as a sniper rifle. Even if you crit you'll never get the sniper pornographic amounts of damage but for a cheap spell it is rather high damage inducing.
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No, it's not as strong as a sniper rifle. Even if you crit you'll never get the sniper pornographic amounts of damage but for a cheap spell it is rather high damage inducing.
I'm at work right now so It'll be a little bit until I finish what I started, with part 2. Thought I would take the time on my break to answer any questions that came up.
Yes it is comparable at level 10 to a sniper Rifle, But in the same way that a track shoe is compared to a work boot. They both cover your feet and share a set of similarities. However its the differences that make the determination as to which is better.
With a Psi helm that gives bonus to Metathermics total, Crit chance +(~6-8%) (26-28% total with Psychosis) Crit Damage +(~27-38%). It will do about 10-20 damage less at the high end but never miss, never needs to be reloaded, never needs maintenance, can be used on the run and in CQC. Im a caster as well, I'm not putting it down or belittling it just saying that its a bit out of alignment in terms of balance with other options.
Here is the biggest difference. The Guns or any other skill doesn't allow you NEAR as much versatility as what is afforded by the metathermics or any other Psi school. For one reagent, mana. You can not disagree with that, which is the point im attempting to elaborate.
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I assume that what you mean is - it's comparable to regular attack with a sniper rifle, not to the snipe attack itself, right?
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I assume that what you mean is - it's comparable to regular attack with a sniper rifle, not to the snipe attack itself, right?
Yeah, the snipe attack amplified with Stealth is crazy damage. I'm making a comparison of the Sniper basic and Aimed Shot. Snipe is its own ball game.
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I still wouldn't compare it to an aimed shot. I've done criticals with that spell at level 13 and it still caps at about a total of a bit over 100.
Let's not forget one thing. Criticals are rolled separatly for each damage type. You got both mechanical and cold damage in it which means while one type of damage can crit, the other might still be regular damage. I can pull criticals of 300+ damage at level 10 on a sniper riffle whose max normal damage is 99. I never done above 140 damage even on crits on the cryokinesis with a headband that gives bonus to everything and 12 will as well as all psi skills maxed.
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I still wouldn't compare it to an aimed shot. I've done criticals with that spell at level 13 and it still caps at about a total of a bit over 100.
Let's not forget one thing. Criticals are rolled separatly for each damage type. You got both mechanical and cold damage in it which means while one type of damage can crit, the other might still be regular damage. I can pull criticals of 300+ damage at level 10 on a sniper riffle whose max normal damage is 99. I never done above 140 damage even on crits on the cryokinesis with a headband that gives bonus to everything and 12 will as well as all psi skills maxed.
Criticals are not rolled separately for each damage type if they are a part of the same attack, which is the case with cryokinesis. However, it's worth noting, that they do have to pass damage threshold separately which can potentially be less effective than an attack with a single damage type (e.g. mechanical targets, which have super high cold DR/DT).
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Well, that is interesting, I thought it was rolled separatly because quire frankly I don't even do half the damage I do with a sniper rifle, even with damage thresholds it in no way compares even though the base damage is similar.
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Hey, PSI heavy armour melee was my first playthrough as well!
He could hack, though, and there were no headbands or combat gloves back then.
Mutant leather armour isn't actually that bad; I think it gives acid resistance or something?
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All this talk of snipers and crazy damage reminded me of the times when Sharpshooter had +75% critical bonus to Sniper Rifles and Snipe could crit. Good times.
I think I once hit a Burrower for over 600 damage with a lvl8 character. Bet that hurt. :P
I bet this is still possible. http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=181865596 (http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=181865596) :P
Even though Snipe can no longer crit, it's base damage was also buffed.
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So that's the reason the guy with the mechanical burrower hit me for over 600 damage when I attacked him back when with my melee char?
Ah well, I got right back at him with a few hundred damage spike armour.^^
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Doing another play through, give me another day for part two.
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I've just finished all the quests that I can do, and I must say that I'm astounded that one guy has produced something of this quality. I have some criticisms, though.
My first criticism is that everything is crazy expensive for low level characters. The merchants rip you off to the point that it's not worth buying most things from them.
This means, perhaps most importantly, that PSI isn't economically viable at low levels due to the cost of replenishing it, unless you enjoy standing next to mindshrooms. The need to hang around mindshrooms after almost every kill introduces an element of tedium and makes the "Shroomhead" feat mandatory for a character using PSI. Inability to afford PSI vials effectively means you are limited to 40% of your maximum PSI all of the time.
It's not just PSI vials, though. Gear like grenades, to even the odds in the more difficult encounters, is prohibitively expensive. Most of the time, enemies come in groups, which is what makes encounters really difficult. Crafting requires a huge investment of skill points, to the detriment of basic combat ability, and low level characters simply won't find the required components anyway.
So, I think the game needs rebalancing for low level characters. Low end stuff to aid in combat should be easier to come by or available at correspondingly low prices from merchants. High end gear can remain suitably expensive.
My other criticism is that many encounters require tactics that I would deem to be meta-gaming. For example, when I met the bandit guys near the siphoner pools, I really had no chance of winning unless I used both entrances to the area to kite them and cause them to become strung out and split up. So I would enter by one entrance, do some damage to the nearest guy, leave, enter through the other entrance, do some damage, leave, and repeat. Between entrances I would go and stand next to a mindshroom for a while. Eventually I killed them all, but having to resort to meta-gaming seems indicative that balance is off.
Despite all that, I think this game is really cool and I hope it's going to get some more content in future (and maybe a balance pass!).
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I've just finished all the quests that I can do, and I must say that I'm astounded that one guy has produced something of this quality. I have some criticisms, though.
My first criticism is that everything is crazy expensive for low level characters. The merchants rip you off to the point that it's not worth buying most things from them.
This means, perhaps most importantly, that PSI isn't economically viable at low levels due to the cost of replenishing it, unless you enjoy standing next to mindshrooms. The need to hang around mindshrooms after almost every kill introduces an element of tedium and makes the "Shroomhead" feat mandatory for a character using PSI. Inability to afford PSI vials effectively means you are limited to 40% of your maximum PSI all of the time.
It's not just PSI vials, though. Gear like grenades, to even the odds in the more difficult encounters, is prohibitively expensive. Most of the time, enemies come in groups, which is what makes encounters really difficult. Crafting requires a huge investment of skill points, to the detriment of basic combat ability, and low level characters simply won't find the required components anyway.
So, I think the game needs rebalancing for low level characters. Low end stuff to aid in combat should be easier to come by or available at correspondingly low prices from merchants. High end gear can remain suitably expensive.
My other criticism is that many encounters require tactics that I would deem to be meta-gaming. For example, when I met the bandit guys near the siphoner pools, I really had no chance of winning unless I used both entrances to the area to kite them and cause them to become strung out and split up. So I would enter by one entrance, do some damage to the nearest guy, leave, enter through the other entrance, do some damage, leave, and repeat. Between entrances I would go and stand next to a mindshroom for a while. Eventually I killed them all, but having to resort to meta-gaming seems indicative that balance is off.
Despite all that, I think this game is really cool and I hope it's going to get some more content in future (and maybe a balance pass!).
The early game used to be even more difficult - it had more enemies (rathounds) in the starter areas and they were a bit tougher and you also started with far less money. Since then I've been steadily making it easier on both fronts. It's still a bit off according to feedback I've been getting. Even though I personally don't have much trouble when I'm playing through it, I can understand how someone new to the game might. I'll probably add some more loot (meds, ammo, repair kits) to the early areas to make it a bit easier and to help people avoid having to retreat back to the base before finishing the first mission.
Pure PSI is not meant to be viable early game. You should still use your weapons relatively effectively at close range even if you decide not to spend any skill points on them. You need to be versatile early game, specialization comes later. Shroomhead will probably get changed in the next update to make it less tedious.
I'm currently considering restoring all the health to enemies upon leaving an area. I know it won't solve all the problems with this tactic, but it should limit it's effectiveness a bit. That said, the problem with the encounter you described (and other similar ones) is that it can deal a lot of ranged damage up front at the beginning of the combat from which it's very hard to recover. Hopefully when energy shields are implemented they will help greatly with this.
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I'm not sure that would be so great Styg. Now most cases it won't really afect a lot of stuff but for example the burrowers in GMS. the only way to win at the level you complete the GMS is to go in and go out. There is a problem in the viabillity of doing that place early on and I see the impossibillity of doing a place the moment you go there for missions as being a problem. It's never a good thing to have to backtrack just to do something you were underleveled to do only to then go back to the main path you were on. Another problem there is what the place has to offer. Supposedly there was something valuable enough for the guys to be trying to get in there. But instead of having another lower or higher level of the GMS compound, instead there is a cave which is certainly not what should have been there (not accordingly to what is given to understand sine you're searching a military facillity for something valuable that would probably be down there but suddenly it's not a military facillity but a cave infested with burrowers) and it is nearly devoid of any loot at all, save from a dead guy at the end. My idea here would be to make the cave still difficult but more manageble for the character level. Also add somewhere another entrance which will lead into a another part of the GMS compound (a new part) where there is some valuable material which was what was being looked for in the first place... It is just an incredible furstation to do that and get nothing in return, even worse for non psiker who spend a lot of resources to clear it out.
As for a change to make shroomhead less tedious. That is great news!
If you want a simple change to make early game a lot better just give a better starting armor. If there is a 20/4 to start with then you can take a decent punishment from the rathounds with that amount of damage reduction. Mind you, it doesn't allows people to do it like idiots but the damage reduction is enough at that point to be able to take a couple hits here and there.
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Indeed that part of the complex is a major peeve of mine.
Stealth doesn't really works, there are so many burrowers and the small ones that you cannot stealth all the way there and back, you'll just get seen after a while. Similarly, fighting with stealth helps nothing other than iniciating the combat. Every single time I tried to agro small parts it never happened, what happened is that all but 2 burrowers NE and a few smaller ones up north are left. Everything else just seams aware of my presence the moment I aggro and this is like, barelly a few yards from the entry... Indeed the dificulty in that place is insane for characters who just finished GMS and the rewards for doing that are virtually non-existent.
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Regarding the burrower lair, I cleared it after many deaths and much save-scumming by using the cheesiest, most metagamey tactics I could think of, along with (OP?) PSI abilities, lots of downtime going to the doc to heal and sitting next to 'shrooms. I used a PSI vial at one point, when I had to deal with 2 burrowers at the same time. The reward was underwhelming, but I wasn't that bothered.
The thing about the difficulty in Underrail is that the harder fights seem something of a puzzle, where you have to figure out how to best exploit the environment (vents, doors, multiple entrances to area, mines, exposive barrels etc.) + enemy behaviour quirks + predictable AI in order to get the "easy" win. I say "easy" because that's a relative term in Underrail. If you attempt the puzzle incorrectly, you generally die or your position becomes so hopeless that you reload. It makes victory quite satisfying, but this puzzle aspect of the game feels odd. I really can't imagine ever finishing Underrail in "Iron Man" mode (starting from level 1) without memorising the entire game down to the last number.
@Styg: You say that you don't have much trouble getting started, but as the developer, you have detailed knowledge that ordinary players won't have. Even after playing the game for 50 hours, there's still a lot that I am uncertain about. So I think you have to expect a large disconnect between how difficult you find and it how difficult the average player finds it, given that they don't have access to the underlying data for everything.
@Styg: One other thing - if PSI is not meant to be viable at low levels, perhaps you should consider building that into the structure of the game? That is, make PSI become available when the player reaches some plot point. That way, you can be fairly sure that the player has gained enough exp to be at least a certain level. Removing some choice from the player idea is probably anathema to some (dumbing down), but there's a reason why many AAA games go easy on the player at the beginning, which is that at the start of any game, new players severely lack the information they need to make informed choices.
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@Styg: You say that you don't have much trouble getting started, but as the developer, you have detailed knowledge that ordinary players won't have. Even after playing the game for 50 hours, there's still a lot that I am uncertain about. So I think you have to expect a large disconnect between how difficult you find and it how difficult the average player finds it, given that they don't have access to the underlying data for everything.
@Styg: One other thing - if PSI is not meant to be viable at low levels, perhaps you should consider building that into the structure of the game? That is, make PSI become available when the player reaches some plot point. That way, you can be fairly sure that the player has gained enough exp to be at least a certain level. Removing some choice from the player idea is probably anathema to some (dumbing down), but there's a reason why many AAA games go easy on the player at the beginning, which is that at the start of any game, new players severely lack the information they need to make informed choices.
I'm aware of this and I'm not trying to balance the game just according to my own experience. Particularly in case of the early game encounters which I will be toning down slowly to ease up the difficulty curve util we hit the sweet spot.
@Styg: One other thing - if PSI is not meant to be viable at low levels, perhaps you should consider building that into the structure of the game? That is, make PSI become available when the player reaches some plot point. That way, you can be fairly sure that the player has gained enough exp to be at least a certain level. Removing some choice from the player idea is probably anathema to some (dumbing down), but there's a reason why many AAA games go easy on the player at the beginning, which is that at the start of any game, new players severely lack the information they need to make informed choices.
I've thought about this, but I don't know if it's really necessary. You get a pistol and potentially a crossbow at the start that you can use without much skill to get you through the early game. I kinda feel this is enough. We'll see, it's not set in stone, it might change.
@Elhazzared
I might add more to the burrowers lair later when I start connecting the Lower Underrail caves. We'll see.
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Epili... Level 8 in GMS? What? Never in my life. let's see, first quests gets me to level 3 or 4, the one to catch hopers doesn't really helps much either. even bringing the meat to the fisher guy. Doing the package delivery. I should fisnish the GMS coumpond at best on level 6. Also I never up agillity or dexterity so bonus doesn't really exists for me there. So yeah, my stealth cannot get me pasts those guys cause starting to get close the suspicion level starts to get higher quickly if you get somewhat close and the place is infested with soe many that there is no way for me to stealth all the way through. I don't really make a very high based stealth character cause stealth for me is no a way to bypass problems. If i have to stealth rather than kill then in my own warped view, I'm doing it wrong. Loot and XP must be gathered at all costs XD.
And yes, you get warned that you're about to enter a paces where shit already hit the fan, but you were also told earlier that there was valuable stuff there and that's what's missing for me. That place should supposedly be still part of GMS and not just a burrower cave from the information we get. Now I can obviously accept that the recent earthquake might have colapsed the passage and that it now leads to a burrower hive but there should be still a passage through the hive to the GMS last floor where the said valuable stuff is... Still Styg seams to be willing to add more to the place in the fure and that makes me happy enough though I still feel the overall difficulty of the place should be slightly toned down so that combat can be more managable by only having to fight small groups at a time rather than having to deal with the whole cave marching upon me.
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@Styg: I agree that the pistol and crossbow are more than adequate for rathounds, allowing you do the first few easy quests (rathound tissue, retrieve watch, generators, catch 3 hoppers etc.), and this gets you some way towards level 4. Once you've done those quests, you'll have the GMS compound and package delivery quests to do. For that, you have to get past the bandits north of SGS (and you can't stealth past them). Maybe I'm missing something, but this seems a pretty extreme difficulty spike, and the 5mm pistol doesn't have enough dakka. You can get an SMG as a quest reward from the old dude, but it doesn't come with ammo. Even with ammo for the SMG, it's questionable whether you can survive 3 bandits at once. There's also the improved crossbow that you can get in the generator quest doesn't put out enough DPS, and if you haven't invested in crossbow skill it's ineffective, because you are forced to keep your distance from the bandit melee guy. I think he has one of those electric hammers in my current playthrough!
So after getting crushed by the bandits and deciding to deal with them later, you can look for other things to do, like explore some more (meet the Ironheads and get stomped). You can go to Junkyard (though you won't have received the drill circuit board quest by that point), or meet the siphoners (likely resulting in death unless you run away immediately). It just seems like the difficulty level right now results in a lot of trial-and-error, to find out what enemies you can actually handle, and a lot of save-scumming, running away mid-fight to heal etc.
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Those bandits are easy to deal with if you learn how to do it. A grenade whould at least take half their life away or straight up kill them if it's at least a mark 2. but let's assume a mark 1. Behind those guys there are rathounds and they will eventually venture far to close to aggro on the bandits. wait by the barel on the right of the screen and once the rathounds engage them wait to make sure all bandits are attacking the rathounds as you creep closer (no stealth needed). Then you toss the grenade at them (try to land it where you hit all the bandits but none of the rathounds so they are distracted for longer. Do this right and half their life is chipped away not to mention they, at least 1 will be distracted by the rathounts so you get a bit more leeway until the are dead. Next comes an aimed and most likelly will dispatch one of the bandits. From here on out it should be doable.
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@Elhazzared: I gotta admit, I hadn't considered this, because I hadn't noticed how anomalously cheap grenades are compared to everything else. So I tried it as you said, and while it takes a bit of luck to get a good throw, it certainly makes those 3 bandits go down relatively easily. On my first play through, I defeated them using PSI punch and a bit of damage tanking etc. but it does go to show that there are multiple solutions, which is good.
By the way, is there any dialogue path in that encounter that doesn't result in combat, with the bandits always getting the alpha strike? That is ignoring the fact that you can wait for the rathounds to distract them, which doesn't always happen immediately.
Anyway, I have to concede @Styg that the early game is OK, if very unforgiving in places, and the 3 bandits on the way to GMS is a learn to play thing rather than a balance problem.
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As far as I know there is no way to peacefully resolve the matter but quite frankly. XP and Loot! There is also a way to stealth by them which works kinda teh way I sujested to you. instead of throwing a grenade, wait for them to engage the ratsand tehn you should be able to stealth by them and take the first stairs on the left... Of course this only answers the how to get in problem though I suppose you could say by the time you get out you are already higher level so the encounter dificulty would have been lower.
I'm glad my advice worked for you, quite frankly it was the only way I've actually found to deal with them, I've failed horribly even with psi... Granted with psi+a grenade was the best effect ever! Grenades are not just cheap, if you can craft them then even a mk1 becomes like a third of the price XD. More however, making mk3 is also easy and even mk. You need at best 10 mechanic and 44 chemical and mk5 are devastating weapons, they nearly kill mutants. mk3 may or may not kill mutated dogs/humans but what survives, survives on very low HP. So yeah, grenades are like the most cost efficient item in the game, but while they are very cost efficient, if you don't craft them you don't get powerful ones that you'll need for the junkyard and of course. Just like ammo for your guns, it's a good policy to conserve them.
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@Elhazzared: Trying to sneak past them while they are busy with the rathounds didn't work for me, because the bandit that initiates dialogue didn't move very far :-\ So even after they started to deal with the rathounds, when I moved close enough (trying to get to the nearby area transition), I got the usual dialogue.
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Strange. I will admit that I never tried but so long as they wouldn't get a red eye meaning that you were noticed then you should be able to pass by. I also would advise to actually go into turn mode when close enough or when the dogs are nearly dead, so you get more time or well... more movement.
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I'm pretty sure that the dialogue is initiated purely based on proximity, and ignores stealth. Anyways, it doesn't matter because as you said, loot and exp.
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Ah so it works as I though it would... Good! :)
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I'm playing a stealthy melee, and I am getting absolutely murdered by burrowers. I've played through twice already, on a stealthy/sniper and a pistol/psi character, but this guy is just terrible. Not liking melee - even with a shock tungsten sledgehammer and pneumatic gloves, I'm getting ravaged. Burrowers just suck vs. melee
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I imagine you have pumped up the abillity that increases stealth. keep that skill at 5 and try again to see if it's possible. Also how in the hell do you have a sniper gun at this point? Anyone starting a clean game should not have that gun under any circunstances. Let's keep it realistic and say you get at best an SMG.
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Another character I played had the sniper rifle - it was a high stealth, sniper/assault rifle build. That character was almost ez-mode. The psi was my second playthrough, he was a little tougher in the beginning, but was a beast at higher levels. This is my third play-through - I'm at level 9 stealth/melee (both maxed) now, and seriously struggling with some encounters
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Well what I mean is. Stealth in and of itself isn't really that great. Spec to stealth is a waste in my opinion, so long as you get enough to sneak around in a manner to start combat into your own terms, that's all the stealth that is ever needed. To put points into the stat that gives it more bonus is to waste abillity points in my opinion. 5 is just about enough not to get penalties and still have a decent value that will allow anyoe to start combat in their own terms.
As for the sniper rifle... Really? I've never seen one for sale after the GMS even after several playthroughs. I also never would have the money to buy one even if it was for sale cause they are stupidly expensive. Sure after doing a few more missions, doing the first bits of depot A I can afford it but never before that.
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It's not really what I'd call a hybrid build. Stealth is for me the start combat button. You don't get to start unless you have some but I don't see a big advantage on having it that high. Sure, agillity gives dodge and evasion bonus but dodge and evasion are not reliable skills unlike armor which will be there in every single attack. More to the point they are 2 extra skills that if you take, are going to leave you hurting elsewhere... Snipe is a better example but you don't really need agillity to further pump snipe, 5 agillity using snipe pretty much kills anything with one shot... Well, maybe a mutant will survive on extremelly low health but that's about it really.
I'd have to say this is a syndrome of not having enough point to diversify enough. When specialisation is required to this point one just has to look at what's aboslutly necessary and what isn't. Sure you can do different builds but I feel they are just much weaker when compared.
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I don't think dodge and evasion will save you in the long run. Sure you managed to get up there and kill a few enemies, but if you get to a certain place where there is so many clustered around that they give you no chance other than agro the whole pack and you can't effectivelly kill a big enough number with a single nade. zerg rush ensues and no amount of movement points will save you towards the number of movement points burrowers have.
I personally never used heavy armor, all of my builds are actually no dodge and/or evasion, light to medium armor, stealth and then well, depends on the build, I can't take too much damage either, that much is certain. I can handle a few hits but the idea is killing everything or keep stunlocks or other effects that let me deal with it in due time.
As for diversity. I'll give you a simple example.
Psiker like i'm doing the Let's Play.
3 psiker skills
1 weapon
stealth, hacking and lockpicking
I have 1 point left which really isn't much room at all to do anything cause everything else I picked already is mandatory!
let me give you my trapper example
2 weapon skills
stealth, hacking, lockpicking
traps
I have 2 skills left but one thing I need is persuasion, at least to let me get to a certain point. I need crafting skills for explosives and for weapons... there just isn't enough leeway... Now granted I shouldn't have gone trapper and made space for one extra skill but still!
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I don't consider straight damage mitigation for one simple reason. you don't get baddass armor at the beggining, there is no money for that and I don't like investing into constitution either cause there are other places I need the points a lot more, places like perception or will. I always consider first and foremost the skill which will give me the damage output and well, I don't like to bring several abillities low cause sometimes that comes to bite in the ass. That is why I can't consider not taking stealth or try a straight guy who can take the hits because at the beggining I simply can't.
By the time I'm in metal armor, realisticly, I'm already at the junkyard and doing depot A which is the absolute last thing I do.
I don't do hybrid defense builds. I do glass cannons. Stealth isn't a defense for me, it's my way to innitiate combat rather than getting initiated upon. My damage mitigation is minimal but my my spec goes purelly into damage. I don't know if you've watched any of my Let's Play vidios but if you do you'll see my build is pure damage. 10 into will for starting, 7 perception which is more than enough for the crossbow and then get 3 from snooping which will give me full detection for secrets and stuff. Skill wise I always raise my attack skills, no exceptions.
Laying down mines is not really a good thing for me. Too long even with the feat. Mines don't realy do more than a grenade with the added problem that when the enemy actually trips on it (cause most times they notice it with me), it's just one taking damage rather than a large number of them. Mines are only good if your grenades really aren't up to the job. Savescum, agro the pack and see where the pack finishes movement. Load up, set a mine in the general vicinity where no one will trip on it. Throw a grenade and have 2 explosions affect the whole pack.
Even burrowers have lots of MP, not as much but a lot none the less. You may be able to kite them with feats and very high movement and boots to give extra movement if we are talking extremes but don't forget that sprint lasts only for 2 turns then kiting is no longer effective. Also you're doing nothing more than running. Effective kitting means runing, killing the enemies as you run and still not get hit by the enemy cause you're superior movement is enough for all of that.
I don't need to max stealth, but i need to keep it very damn close to max otherwise the enemy will spot instantly. Again take in mind, 5 agillity.
I need max hacking and lockpicking. By the time I get to GMS there are 2 locks I can't even open until I get one more level. Watch the enxt episode of my Let's Play and you'll see that as I hit GMS. Other than that I mostly am on pair with the locks but I invest into it every level.
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Yup, i like to discuss things so yeah :P
Build up towards is the same as say, hurt a lot towards it. While I don't have a decent armor it's just taking a lot of damage and just generally making my game start a whole harder than it has to be and also a whole lot more boring because health hypos drop, but not like candy. Since I play economicly, I do go back for healing and quite frankly going back and forth for free healing is boring as hell, all because I don't have a decent armor. As for armor costs. Metal armor is sold at the junkyard only (and I don't go there before it's time to move there). Also you won't even have the money before GMs. As for the cost... I dunno about you, I never saw it cost any less than 32K (without mercantile)... I am not saying it's not possible to get it bellow, but I never saw it that cheap. Besides they require 9 str to use... I'm sure you can use it without the required str but that will give you further penalties which I'm not sure what they even are.
I have missed that then. I had figured out the rocks in the junkyard had an interact cursor way before I even got that quest but I actually never noticed the ones there. i'll have to go check out that cave sometime just to see what's even there... For the most part I tend to ignore it because rocks have target cursor which is just, shot me for ammo waste.
I once made a character on 7 agillity and I didn't even notice any superior movement over the usual 5 agillity I start with. And yes you need to kite something that weak because if you don't have a very good armor that's 5 attacks per spawn and you can be sure that at least one will be a critical so my experience tells me that each spawn alone is enough to chew down 1/4 to 1/3 of life. That's with a 21/4 armor which you usually get a drop or just buy for cheap. But as for the MP you get... It really is't that high and again, it's MP, the idea of kiting is using only the MP without using the AP... Also yes I did notice at least the rathounds will disengage if they can't see you and reach you for a few turns, i'm sure this behavior is shared by at least a few more enemy types if not all.
I'm sorry but not taking lockpicking or hacking is not acceptable at all. You need to be able to open everything, there isn't even a point in playing if you don't. You're losing loot and possibly access to vital areas. Maybe it's not something that will stop you from finishing the game, but it's still vital access to quests or loot. When a game like this is made, it is centered around loot. Get more loot, get more money, get better in order to deal with what comes next. To say no to more loot just feels contraditory to the game... The amount of loot you miss is really a huge amount of money lost, enough to turn the game into a whole new level of pain.
Stealth is mandatory too. You may say that, you only need it at the beggining and it's not needed past GMS. I'll agree to that but quite frankly. Until I started using stealth I was getting owned at every corner because everything deals an insane amount of damage and there is not enough mitigation early on. The only way to really mitigate damage is by not taking it at all which requires everything to die before it hurts you. Stealth allows you to set up the combat in such way, without it you aren't going to get lucky... As for at which level I need it at... Well, for the current content, yes, around level 11 you don't need more of it. I finish all the content at that level or maybe 12. I had a character go to level 13 but not only did I do the burrower hive which I didn't need to (not that I knew at the time that it was a waste of time and resources) I also activly farmed that level 13 in order to get enough persuasion to save cliff's girlfriend.
EDIT: Just made a character to climb through the rocks and see what's thereand just 2 shrooms. It's a nice thing but at the end of thegday ot that useful of a room since there really isn't more loot other than those 2 shrooms... Still, i suppose 2 shrooms for free isn't bad if you have the agillity to climb over the rocks... Dunno how much is needed since the character I tried with had 10 agi... Quite frankly 10 agi 40 MP is totally not worth it. 3 MP per point agi it seams, definitly not a good trade. I could see maybe a use for it if it was 5 points but then again since enemies are based on abillity scores too it would increase their movement too which in turn would render it back to meh. As for dodging, without an extensive test on agi 10 I can say at best 40% chance... Not really great considering it's a skill investment.
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If you're saving money for a metalic armor then you hurt more cause you're not going to buy a vest midway if you find a relativelly cheap one like I usually do. It's kinda like, go on the starting armor, or maybe a 20/4 if it drops util you get a metalic one. Also by metalic armor I don't consider vests or riot. I consider straight up metal armor which costs quite a lot. Vests are not stupidly expensive (for the most part), but they don't give a whole lot of protection really, they do give a nice bonus against balistic weapons hich is what makes it worth it but against anything that just goes mellee or uses special attacks like say, acid, then it's just not that great. Maybe it's not really hurting more but hurting longer because it takes you a really long time for metalic armor.
Even on a very high dodge you are still taking 3 to 4 hits per spawn because you chances to dodge are never higher than 40% from what I've perceived and i'm talking on a 10 agillity character... Yes they are weak but they are many. Not only there are quite a few, but burrowers will make more. Sure you can kill the eggs but then you're not attacking the burrowers and sometimes 2 or 3 are laying eggs.
As for other ways of making cash... What ways? killing hoppers? gathering mushrooms? fishing? Even crafting is barelly worth it if you have to buy the parts because you craft since it makes it cheaper and possibly better. but buying the part to craft and sell is not really profit. I am sorry but I don't see options here.
Yes, I can buy a 20/4 leather armor. Cheap? No, that's over half my starting money. It is cheap in the long run but right at the start of the game it's all but cheap. That should in fact be the starting armor if we are to look at how hard enemies actually hit. Also add buying a haxxor, buy a couple bateries for it, buy a few lockipicks. Money could grow on trees because there are no trees in underrail! :P
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Well I don't doubt you, I'm just saying that it's extremelly rare since I never found metal armor bellow 32K. Either that or RNG has a strange sense of humor with me.
Is 40% bad? Well that depends on how we look at it. In the first place metal armor is straight up better than 40% dodge. It allows weaker attacks to be brought down to 0 damage, stronger attacks are just reduced in damage, this not to mention that a metal armor reliably protects you while dodge isn't really reliable. But metal armor (and les assume the very best) requires you 9 STR now if you want the feat to shot more when you go auto, that would already require 7 base so, you're going 2 points above what's needed. To get 40% dodge chance, you need not only agillity 10 (and I'd dare say that currently there is no need for more than 3 even if I tend to keep it at 5) but you need to invest every single level into evasion and dodge which again compared to armor, there is no skill waste... Now in Cliffs, yes you can deal easly with the spawns there, in GMS is not so easy.
Yes, pickpocket can make extra cash, I don't see stealth as being a way to make extra cash unless you mean you have to combine both pickpocket and stealth which then brings up the thing about, 2 skills spent anyway. As for crafting. What drops is widely varied, leather armor is probably the easiest to get but the amount of money you get from those is still limited and you'll need a lot of different high crafting skills in order to put all you get to use, this not to mention that you need to get all the right drops and they are randomised after all. So crafting isn't really reliable as a form of income... You do are right there is an initial investment into lockpicking and hacking, but it's not that big and in fact, just as soon I finish the first area, those items more than paid for themselves already.
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True that, if they aren't so close to bump you out quickly out of stealth it does works prety well.