Underrail Forum
Underrail => General => Topic started by: Eldakar on March 20, 2016, 08:13:10 pm
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As topic says.
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I would also like to hear his suggestion too.
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So far i came up with this:
Str 8
Dex 6
Agility 4
Constitution 3
Perception 10 ++++?
Will 3
Int 6
Aimed shot
Marksman
Kneecap Shot
Vile Weaponry
Concussive Shots
Snipe
Special Tactics
Sharpshooter
Critical Power
Elemental Bolts
Hunter
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I take you are going for heavy armor then. Not the stealthy route.
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I'm not Wildan but i'm quite sure you should:
dump STR,
get 7 DEX for Quick Tinkering,
get Deadly Snares,
get Ambush (it can be taken very late, you'll need it for trap immune enemies from DC; it's kinda redundant with Deadly Snares),
get more AGI for better stealth.
But let's wait for the expert builder.
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I think you also need to invest in crafting for those nice special bolts.
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Str 3
Dex 7
Agility 8
Constitution 3
Perception 10 ++++?
Will 3
Int 6
Aimed shot
Marksman
Kneecap Shot
Vile Weaponry
Concussive Shots
Snipe
Special Tactics
Sharpshooter
Critical Power
Elemental Bolts
Hunter
Quick Tinkering
Deadly Snares
Ambush
So this is how it looks now.. I guess no evasion or dodge?
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You can take evasion and dodge if you want. Should have enough skill points to spread around crafting if you're maxing out crossbow, dodge, evasion, stealth and bumping traps as much as necessary.
Kneecap Shot isn't really necessary as Concussive Shots can trigger on any attack and you have serrated bolts for bleeding, consider something else. Opportunist, Trap Expert, Nimble are all useful.
I've never taken Ambush but it might be fantastic for all I know... you do have incendiary bolts.
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Considering that Crossbows are all about special attacks Opportunists is a must feat.
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Recklessness also looks good..
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I agree with player1. On top of that Crossbows have a great synergy with all traps related stuff. I am looking forward to trying the "deadly snares" feat or whatever is called. I am getting "quick tinkering" too.
PS - Do you think "concussive shots" is worth taking? Judging from description, it seems nice.
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Concussive Shots is very good, it procs often and enemies affected by it take +15% Opportunist damage.
Recklessness is a good perk but if you find yourself relying on crit chance bonuses too much with this character then you most likely aren't making use of traps frequently enough to have taken Deadly Snares, so one or the other.
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Well, right now there are several things that I dislike specially from crossbows.
1. Degrade rate seems to be a little high for my taste. Either you keep a replacement crossbow or invest in mechanics to be able to create your own repair kits. It could be also that crossbows from earlier game are crap anyway. Poor durability.
2. According to stats, there are only 10% penalty for shooting in close quarters combat and while moving. Well the feeling seems to be quite the opposite. From a 95% to 74%- doesn't seem like a 10% to me.
3. World loot is full of bullets. Not many bolts except for purchasing them at shops. PS - I must admit this point might be invalid. Random loot generator tends to generate (redundancy implied) more bolts and or crossbow related stuff now that I am weilding one.
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Degrade rate seems to be a little high for my taste.
I hate this so much with crossbows. Can barely get through two combats without having to cram repair kits. WTF? Are they that powerful that they need to degrade so much faster than guns? (no. no they aren't)
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Heh. I ran out of bolts halfway GMS compound mission and had to trek back to base. Annoying. :P
Well. Here is my view on crossbows so far:
+ Great damage against organic opponents.
+ Special bolts are fun.
+ Great synergy with traps.
- Crappy damage against heavily armored opponents. You may need a sidekick weapon but then, you find out, you need to invest in another discipline, like guns. :(
- Other weapon loadouts pay off earlier in the game, like SMG/Sniper combo. With crossbows you have to invest a lot and be patient.
- Special bolts make you invest a lot in several scientific paths, maybe spreading your points too thin.
- Snipe ability is way better with sniper rifles than with crossbows (at least early game).
- Only two attacks per round that may become nerfed as soon as you try to position yourself in combat.
- Fastest degradation rate of all weapons ?
- Attack percentage pretty variable at similar distances. Maybe it's just me. But other weapons seem more reliable when compared to same PER 10.
- I have also found crossbows to be terrible when moving around in combat and/or disengaging from a close quarters opponent.
Overall, I am not very impressed with crossbows so far. I will keep playing to see how they evolve over time, but I have the suspicion that crossbows cannot be the main weapon and may need of some sidekick aid.
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So luckily i didnt start for real a crossbow run. Huh so its not so nice eh? I am playing now smg/unarmed guy.. pretty good.. unarmed helps to conserve ammo. Also found assault rifle, but its not as good as my smg. Also just arived to Junkyard and I see sniper rifles. Not sure if I will buy one.
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(http://www.mediafire.com/convkey/430c/272cct0z24c0qdvzg.jpg)
The equipment should consist of:
1 damage dealer crossbow - Scoped (anatomically-aware) Super Zephyr Crossbow. Tornado is stronger but has fewer, weaker criticals, a 2% CtH penalty and also important - 15% instead of 10% move and shoot penalty. Ideally you'll be shooting first and then moving but now and then you won't be able to do so because sometimes you'll have to hide behind a corner to lure the enemy in your trap, and when he steps on it he'll be rooted and you likely won't see him unless you step out from cover again. Also on some rare occasion a bug happens where the enemies can fire at you but you can't fire back unless you move. This problem is not special to crossbows and can happen with any ranged weapon.
1 special bolt spammer crossbow - Scoped (anatomically-aware) Pneumatic Cyclone Crossbow. I'll get more to it later.
Armor and boots both made of infused syphoner leather which provides good heat and acid defenses but also lots of dodge and evasion bonus - as a glass cannon you'll need lots of it. Utility belt which gives you 2 additional utility slots so you'll have 4 (5 with Quick Pockets). You'll fill all those slots with special bolts. Smart night vision goggles to boost your special attacks and actually hit under low light conditions. You can use a shield to your own liking. I prefer a low frequency efficient shield emitter for most of the time.
I'll break down some of the not so obvious feat choices:
Snipe - Usually it's seen as a sniper feat and many people (including the popular youtube guide maker Nerd Commando) like to skip it but I cosider it as essential for crossbows as well. While snipers are way stronger by base damage alone (plus they can be made with smart modules) crossbows have one significant advantage - they are completely silent weapons. In your first round you have a good chance to silently kill small groups of 2-3 enemies without alerting anybody else on the map, so with more quick encounters you'll use Snipe more often than with a sniper.
Blitz - Crossbows are slow weapons and as with any other build it's essential to plan ahead on how you will make most out of your AP. Your first combat round is pretty clear. You'll use Special Tactics ability for the extra attack and open the combat with Snipe, Aimed Shot and Kneecap Shot - all from your damage dealer crossbow. From the second round on you'd normally be left with 2 shots per round. This is where your quick Cyclone crossbow comes in play. Made with the pneumatic reloader it fires for 17 AP per shot so together with Blitz and adrenaline shot drug you'll have 90 AP for that round which allows you to fit in 5 (!) shots with the Cyclone (17 x 5 = 85). With the effect of adrenaline shot alone you'll still be able to fire 4 times with it (68 AP) and even when fatigue kicks in you can still shoot twice for 34 AP out of 35 available. As a side note - In tight areas I like to bottleneck enemies and block them of with traps while dealing with fatigue. Often it will buy you enough time till it wears off.
Quick Pockets - No longer neccessary since patch 1.0.1.4 as the special bolt stack limit was greatly improved (It used to be only 5). I replaced the feat with Concussive Shots. This also opens up the trappers belt as a viable alternative now if you find yourself doing well with one less stack of special bolts. (thanks epeli)
Pack Rathound - As a crossbow user there is no reason to raise STR above 3 but you'll depend on traps alot and unfortunately they also weigh alot just as the bolts, batteries etc if you carry many. I don't mind a bit of inventory management so I can live without it until level 20 but don't go down to DC without it. Even if you disregard loot completely you won't be able to prepare properly. If you're having financial problems you might want to take it a few levels earlier.
Kneecap Shot - While it's pretty mediocre for pistols and SMGs it's amazing for crossbows as you can afford to have high perception which gives you better damage. It count's as a special attack and is therefore affected by smart goggles bonus. With high perception you have a pretty good hitchance and crossbows have a better range than most weapons, meaning you can attack from afar but the average enemy affected by Keecap Shot will have to spend most, if not all his AP to close in - very good to kite away when fatiqued. It's also the best attack against melee opponents as you don't wont to have those point blank in your face because then will suffer either move and shoot or close quarter penalty attacking them.
If you're worried about survival and want to focus more on defense, at level 12 you can raise INT from 6 to 7 instead of PER and replace Quick Pockets and Kneecap shot with Power Management and Skinner, but even as a permadeath (ironman) guy I prefer the more offensive approach I posted above.
Feats I see here mentioned I would not recommend:
Ambush - While it's pretty good it's too situational to be reliable and requires some experience. Which tile counts as illuminated and dark is not always as obvious but if you tend to have lots of incendiary bolts you can consider taking it late game for DC instead of Kneecap Shot. Remember however that with heavy trap usage and Deadly Snares you'll hit critically anway so it reduces the usefulness of this feat. It's better for snipers. Same reasoning applies to Recklessness.
Trap Expert - With high enough traps skill there are not many enemies that will detect your traps so It's mostly a waste to pick this in a feat starving build like this.
Nimble - I use it for most dodge/evasion builds but there is simply no room for it. With syphoner leather armor you only get 5% armor penalty so your Snipe and dodge/evasion won't suffer much. Sure, you also lose the bonus to them but it's not good enough here. Besides, 10 agi + 1 from food I recommend as your supplement is plenty. If you want it consider Skinner first.
Distribution of skill points:
Always max out crossbows, dodge, evasion and stealth. Raise traps so far that you can not only detect but also recover traps for yourself (you need 20 points above the trap disarming difficulty).
Crafting is obviously mandatory, not only for the crossbows, armor, etc but also for the traps and special bolts. Thanks to 6 INT, junkyard surprise and 15% crafting bonus from the Core City basement bonus you don't need to max out crafting skills, not even close. I found it there is even room to raise enough chemistry (60 effective skill) to craft Mk III incendiary bolts which are amazing in tight spaces. Too good to be left out. Chemistry should be your last priority however. You'll also need some biology for bear traps and thanks to the crafting bonuses I mentioned above putting 39 points in biology is enough to translate it to 65. For chemistry it's 38 points (equals 60 effective with bonuses).
With all this there is enough room to raise both lockpicking and hacking to effective skill of 100 and that's a very solid value.
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Awesome guidelines Wildan. Do you have similar advice for other builds?
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I play it now Wildan, just got lvl 6 when i entered Junkyard. So far it's good. As for fast loss of durability it is not a problem so far - found 6 crossbows so far. Only now i had to repair.
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There is one problem with them. Equipped in your utility slots they're are limited to stacks of 5 max.
???
(http://i.imgur.com/Euw5ZUY.png)
Concussive shots - It's awesome actually and would be my next choice if I could fit it in but there are more important feats.
Pack Rathound is more important than Concussive Shot? I never had issues with carry weight with my crossbowman. I didn't carry dozens of traps around either though, only used them in difficult fights that couldn't win with crossbow alone.
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my last playthrough was a psi crossbow build since i dislike traps and absolutely love thought control so here are my thoughts on it. :D
to be honest, i passed the whole underrail using mk1 shock and incendiary bolts. started using my ridiculous stash of several hundred mk2 and mk3 bolts only in dc. also most of the time i used monsoon crossbows since they have the best looking art (yeah, really a good reason). :) anatomically aware scope is a must have upgrade and i used pneumatic reloader more since super string boosts only mechanical damage.
build:
st 3
dx 5
ag 6
cn 3
pe 10
wi 8
in 5
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crossbow 15
evasion 15
dodge 15
stealth 15
hacking 15
lockpicking 15
chemistry 15
though control 15
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aimed shot
marksman
sprint
concussive shots
ambush
opportunist
special tactics
elemental bolts
sharpshooter
critical power
premeditation
locus of control
skinner
power management
the feats are approximately in the correct order. i put points into will to get locus of control and intelligence for crafting feats. if i remember correctly i didn't raise perception above 10 and the last 2 points went into agility. chemistry was the first crafting skill to get to 20 and mechanics to 10 for incendiary bolts (i think the metathermics guy at sgs sells the blueprints) and then later electronics (the blueprint was in gms but don't know if it's random loot or not).
now that i read Wildan's post, blitz seems like a good idea but i managed without it. i also second his opinion on infused siphoner leather stuff because it's great.
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@Sanger
Thanks for pointing that out. Tbh I haven't played with crossbows in last few weeks and completely missed the stack limit change. That makes Quick Pockets somewhat less usefull ofcourse. I will edit the build accordingly and replace the feat with Concussive Shots as it wins here.
Pack Rathound is indeed worth taking. The 3 STR weight problem is not only about traps (which I do like to recover as I disable them). A stack of 100 regular bolts weighs 5, special bolts even 10. Then there is food, batteries, bandages, drugs, TNT/jackhammer and other minor stuff which encumbers pretty fast with the limit of 130, often giving little room to loot stuff like poisons and explosives needed for crafting. I can live without it on a 3 STR knife, pistol or SMG character but not here. If other players can deal well with such pain in the ass, by all means they should postpone it to level 24 and eventually take something else instead ofcourse. :P
@ eLPuSHeR
I have posted other builds as a reply in quite a few posts but some of those are old and possibly outdated by now. Maybe it would be a good idea to make a new topic containing effective builds. I'd put them in the first post and as the gameplay progresses with each version and we exchange ideas and suggestions, I would alter the post to improve and keep the builds up to date.
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Some players also like to have a stack of armors in their inventory, to fit every situation (stealth, ambushes, prolonged fights, specialized protection). In those situations traits like Pack Rathound help a lot.
Heck, my STR8 wielding characters uses Pack Rathound, and his base inventory takes around 140 in weight.
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Some players also like to have a stack of armors in their inventory, to fit every situation (stealth, ambushes, prolonged fights, specialized protection). In those situations traits like Pack Rathound help a lot.
Heck, my STR8 wielding characters uses Pack Rathound, and his base inventory takes around 140 in weight.
Good point with the armors. Despite the 30% armor penalty Chemical Assault Unit armor is the best choice for DC overall, as bio/acid damage becomes quite an issue. It's also not exactly lightweight.
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Only time I've ever carried more than one armor piece was the first time I did DC, where I lugged around a biohazard suit for a bit. Never carry around stuff like TNT or jackhammer unless I know I need it either, weighs too much. Even on feat-light builds I've never bothered with Pack Rathound and always prioritise stuff like Nimble instead. 130 weight has always seemed like way more than necessary to me unless you absolutely must loot everything. I rarely loot anything after Junkyard myself unless it's a piece of equipment to replace something I'm already wearing... selling loot in this game is just a chore and quests give you more than enough cash to buy everything you need anyway.
Batteries are like 5 weight for 50 which is way more than you actually need to carry anywhere ever, meds weigh practically nothing unless you're trying to carry hundreds of hypos for some reason... what can I say, I never seen the need to carry tons of stuff in Underrail.
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Im fighting dogs in underground of Junkyard and have 30% chance to hit them point blank.. Eh.. and one hit takes 1/4 of their life..
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Crossbow has penalty to hit at point blank, like rifle. You want to attack from mid/long range. Also crossbow is silent, you use this to advantage by attacking lone enemies from stealth, killing them and then going away to sneak again, repeat.
The build given above leaves skills I would suggest taking ASAP until later than I would take them - if you take Snipe at level 6, Depot A is easy to run and gun through. You will probably have to carry many traps and spam them instead.
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Overall, I am not very impressed with crossbows so far. I will keep playing to see how they evolve over time, but I have the suspicion that crossbows cannot be the main weapon and may need of some sidekick aid.
I agree, it would certainly be nice if that weren't the case though.
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The build given above leaves skills I would suggest taking ASAP until later than I would take them - if you take Snipe at level 6, Depot A is easy to run and gun through. You will probably have to carry many traps and spam them instead.
Initially I had it at level 6 and it was meant to stay there but after moving some feats around I didn't put it back. My bad, the order is correct now.
Overall, I am not very impressed with crossbows so far. I will keep playing to see how they evolve over time, but I have the suspicion that crossbows cannot be the main weapon and may need of some sidekick aid.
I agree, it would certainly be nice if that weren't the case though.
Crossbows can ONLY be a main weapon. They don't share their weapon skill with any other branch so it doesn't make sense to additionally invest in melee or guns. They also need alot of feats to be really effective so you'd most likely end up with two gimped weapon classes instead of a one well built.
If you want a sidekick use a sniper next to any of the firearms. Unlike crossbows they need very few feats and base stats. They are designed as a support weapon in mind. They have hefty penalties and need to be used strategically, not for every single enemy in the game. There is little point shooting at every rathound etc with a 24+ AP sniper round.
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I droped my crossbow run in favor of my new knife guy. What feat is better on lvl 10 taste for blood or cut throat?
Edit: Nevermind, picked taste for blood. Going so far pretty nice im level 11 now. Got kukri and going for Ratking.
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What kind of a build are you planing to go for?
A knife fighter is well suited for a stun immune assassin with lots of HP, many attacks thanks to throwing knifes plus amazing critical damage. One of my favorite build as it's very fit for permadeath runs.
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I guess my build is not good enough then. I dont have con for thick skull. But anyways here is build to satisfy curiosity: :)
Lvl 11
S3
D12
A10
C3
P3
W5
I6
Hunter
Opportunist
Recklessness
Sprint
Crippling strike
Cheap shots
Ripper
Taste of Blood
Skills: melee, stealth, dodge, evasion, lockpicking, traps, hacking, mechanics. No tailoring so i cant really craft anything interesting :(
My dmg with kukri says its 15-32 but Crit chance is 34%/150% mod. Been doing well until i ran into robots and faceless in Rail Crossing. I also killed Ratking at lvl 8 or 9 i think.. lured him into traps.
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Doesn't look bad actually. :)
Crippling Strike was maybe not the best choice as Kukri does the same thing, even better. As you've noticed it is the best support knife for most of the time as you can stack max cripple debuffs very quickly. That feat is still not wasted however. You could replace the Kukri with the unique Humanizer knife when you get it. Awesome for CC.
Since you're going for high DEX it would be good to get Fatal Throw asap. Throwing knifes are considered light weapons so the base 18 AP cost gets reduced by 4% for each DEX above 5, meaning when you kill with it you get way more AP back then you invest in throwing it. It has also perfect synergy with Ripper. Other feats you should fit in: Critical Power, Blitz, Expose Weakness and Cut Throat. Since you already have 6 INT I assume you want some crafting feats and you should definatelly be able to put lots of points into tailoring. As for the feats Power Management for stronger shield and Skinner would be good choices. Maybe Weaponsmith if you can squeeze it in but there are usually more important feats like Nimble for example. Interloper is also a very good choice if you have trouble closing in for the Cut Throat kill.
See, this is the problem with aassassin builds - there are so many good feats you can benefit alot from but so few feat slots. That's why I actually prefer not to pick crafting feats and leave INT at 5.
One route is to go for max AGI, as you did, the other to keep it at 6, DEX at 14 (You can still get 4AP attacks with Taste for Blood. 5 WIL as well for Ripper, leave INT at 5 for Expose Weakness and Cheapshots and maximise CON, not only for Thick Skull but also for Survival Instincts later on as critical chance and damage is your bread and butter.
It looks something like this:
(http://www.mediafire.com/convkey/2704/cdf5bc356z59h9dzg.jpg)
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Interesting. But with that build there is no skill points left for crafting tree. So would that be ok?
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It is tight indeed but mangable. You usually don't need to max out a crafting skill in any build that hasn't dumped INT completely.
Here is how to min/max crafting with any build (spoiler):
There is a food item called Junkyard Suprise which gives you up to +2 in a random stat. We have 7 stats so with a bit of luck (100/14 ~ 7,1% chance) you'll get +2 INT so buy Junkyard Surprise at any given chance and plan ahead. You can calculate how much skill you need at any given time. Best you use the "+2" opition with INT on the character creator: http://underrail.info.tm/
There is also a player home in Core City you get after completing one of the 3 oligarchy questlines. It has a basement and the possibility to add crafting tables by buying them from certain merchants in Underrail. When you get them go there and your corresponding skill gets a 15% bonus (It's seems to be a bit higher actually). It's quite a walk though so I usually leave my stuff at the SGS home and go there with nothing but components for weapons, armors, traps, drugs - really anything I will eventually use for crafting, eat Junkyard Surprise (you can do it in Junkyard or SGS as it lasts for 20 minutes which is plenty) and make everything I can in one go in the basement.
So for an crafting example:
You gathered good components for an energy shield you want to make. Go to the crafting menu, put the components in the slots and look at the skill requirement. Let say it's 92 in electronics you need. Divide 92 by 1.15 because of basement bonus and you'll get 80. (if it's not an integer round it up). Open the character creator, put in your level stats, skills and mark the "+2" option on INT. Now raise your skill in the character creator till the effective skill (the one in the brackets) reaches 80. That's your effective crafting skill you need and it equals 64 invested points. Compare it with your character in the game. If you don't have enough just raise it on your next level up and then go for crafting.
With the build above I max melee, dodge and evasion, usually get throwing and stealth pretty high but not maxed, a bit lockpicking, hacking and biology for the traps. Very high electronics and pretty high mechanics and tailoring. Everything fits in nicely if you don't raise skills blindly but do the min/maxing I described above. It's not for everybody though as it requires some work.
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Trying to get that +2 INT with Junkyard Surprise requires really tedious save scumming.
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@epeli
Awesome! Kudos to you!
Yup, I just checked it again in my current game. Electronics 125 (156) jumps to (179) - exactly 15%. :D
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I got third character running, this time its that electric hammer crit guy who Wildan posted in other thread. I got spiked (not seratted .. to bad) galvanic tungsten armor in shop in Junkyard. Got to lvl 8 and entered place with mutants and mutated dogs.. (yard where you get that part requested by SGS) and its too hard for this build. Im playing on hard, that might be the case.
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Are you playing ironman?
Btw. you don't have to go straight to Junkyard and Depot A after finishing Gorsky his task. If I can use traps or snipe from afar I usually head south-west first (turn left at the trains in SGS) and collect some experience in those caves. It's worth a level or two at that point and it's easier than Depot A, just be careful not to get stunned by the pigs. That lake with Syphoners west of Junkyard also has lots of experience to offer - super easy with traps.
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No no ironman. I did finish Jagged alliance 2 and Fallout tactics on ironman tho.
I also play oddity experience. I think the other hammer build would be better. That trick with electrokinesis is not worth it imho.
Another thing is pummel - i find it disapointing.
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Yes, I also tend to find mauler builds too overrated.
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@player1
Not necessarily. Just eat more junk without savescumming! Junkyard Surprises are cheap...
Actually that is even worse due to 5s cooldown.
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@player1
Not necessarily. Just eat more junk without savescumming! Junkyard Surprises are cheap...
Actually that is even worse due to 5s cooldown.
I hesitantly agree.
At first I used to keep piles of Junkyard Surprise and just eat eat eat until I got the combo I wanted.
Then, one time, I accidentally ate one more; which was also my last one - so I reloaded.
To my surprise, the reload was a lot quicker than the time to eat another one.
So now, I admit it, I save scum it - it's just quicker to eat/reload until the right combo comes up, than it is to eat eat eat. And, if you are unlucky, you end up "eating up" a lot of time trying to get that right combo. Save scumming saves quite a bit of time, over time, if you end up unlucky.
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Another surprise is that game saves longer than it loads (:
But YMMV.
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What kind of a build are you planing to go for?
A knife fighter is well suited for a stun immune assassin with lots of HP, many attacks thanks to throwing knifes plus amazing critical damage. One of my favorite build as it's very fit for permadeath runs.
Hey just wanna say thx, decided too try your build and it's been alot of fun! Nice synergy with everything. lvl6 atm and feels crazy strong. With that amount of HP, AP, Dodge and Evasion every round is over before it's even started ^^
Running Nimble, Recklessness, Sprint, Crippling Strike and Cheap Shots atm. Getting Taste for Blood next :)
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Good to hear but I'm afraid that build I posted is outdated by now. :(
On what game version are you playing? The april patch 1.0.1.8 brought some substantial changes for DEX-based and melee builds. DEX AP bonus for light weapons was reduced from 4% to 3%. 14 DEX + tabbis were enough to bring the attack cost down to 6 AP and Taste for Blood feat had the potential to reduce it further to 4 AP which is the current cap.
Now 14, 15 or even 16 DEX + tabbis equal 7 AP attacks and Taste for Blood offers no AP reduction anymore. That reduces the potential of 12 attacks within 50 AP down to 7 attacks which is a loss of more than 40%!
http://www.underrail.com/wiki/index.php?title=Dexterity
You could ofcourse plan to increase DEX to 16 which when supplemented with eel sandwitch (+1 DEX temporary) is enough for 6 AP attacks (8 attacks per turn which is still a loss of 33% compared to before) but you'd have to shed off two stat points from CON rendering both Thick Skull and Survival Insincts unavailable. So I no longer recommend the CON route for knife fighters. Too bad you're in middle of a playthrough and there is no way to respec your build. I wish Styg would leave previous versions as an option in the "beta" tab in Steam game property. Some games like Europa Universalis 4 have this. More than once did a patch ruin my playthrough.
I haven't played with knifes since the nerf but it seems they are the weakest branch right now, becomming less suitable as a main weapon but merely as a support for special attacks like Cut Throat, Eviscerate or finishing a badly wounded enemy with Ripper crit bonus.
Something needs to happen to make knives attractive again. They have the best critical damage bonus of all melee weapons but that's by far not enough to compensate for how slow they became. There are faster than 12 base AP knives but they are too weak for combat. 11 AP TiChrome doesn't help in this matter. There is also -1 AP gain from the supersoldier drug but the components are too rare to make a regular use of it.
Maybe knives could get a feat for a special "Flurry" attack that does 3 attacks for the price of +50% more AP and reduced precision (same as Rapid Fire works for some firearms) but with 1 turn cooldown.
Back to how knifes are best played right now. There seems to be no way around 10 AGI and Blitz anymore. Fatal Throw was also nerfed to 18 AP refund only once per turn but at least it still offers net gain of 7 AP @17 DEX.
Best case scenario 1st turn: 50 base AP + 20 from adrenaline drug + 18 from Fatal Throw refund = 88 AP
2nd turn: 50 base AP + 20 from adrenaline drug + 20 from Blitz + 18 from Fatal Throw refund = 108 AP
That's enough to fit in a knife throw (11 AP) and 12 regular 6 AP attacks in the first round (83 AP) and in the second a throw + 16 attacks (107 AP). Sounds good but thanks to lightning punches unarmed can do 19 and 24 attacks (4 AP each) in the same scenario. SMGs have even more potential.
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That would also allow armor slopping and weaponsmith since survival instincts and thick skull is out.
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Armor Sloping works only for metal armors and those require 8 STR to wear without penalty. STR makes little sense for knife fighters because of weak STR damage bonus for them and no STR based feats like unarmed fighters have them (Wrestling/Bone Breaker).
Weaponsmith can work well to compensate for the loss of offensive ability though. For now probably the best thing for a knife build is to make a strong bond with throwing, especially grenades and to focus on it as early as possible. In order to bring both grenade feats (Grenadier/Three-Pointer) in AND weaponsmith one more feat has to go and that should be Cut-Throat and here is why. Cut-Throat requires 30 AP to perform and with only 20 AP left there are 4 options:
1. Attack 3 times with the melee knife (18 AP) which is pointless considering that throwing is the best asset in this build but remains unused.
2. Attack once with the melee knife (6 AP) and throwing knife (11 AP) which will often not be enough for a Fatal Throw kill (18 AP refund) and again leaves grenades unused.
3. Throw a grenade (15 AP) which will do good damage but leave only 5 AP left - not enough to use a throwing knife or even a single melee attack.
4. Pop in adrenaline shot and with 40 AP do all of the above but while it's not a rare drug it would still be a waste opening a majority of battles with it and can be dangerous when fatigue kicks in and the bulk of enemy force just arrivied attracted by the sound. Should be kept for strategical use to overcome a disadvantage only when needed.
So the best thing is to forget about Cut-Throat, sneak around until enemies group together as close as possible, then enter combat mode and open up with a grenade, kill a wounded survivor (less than 25% hp) with a throwing knife getting 18 AP back, use Sprint and with remaining 42 AP attack exactly 7 times with the melee knife which makes a full use of all AP. Second turn starts with plenty of MP for 20 AP Blitz bonus which means all of the above can be repeated plus 3 extra melee attacks or use adrenaline for a total of 108 AP (including 18 AP Fatal Throw refund) allowing for up to 16 melee attacks. To improve the crit chance even further infused rathound leather armor would be a good choice as main armor.
Build progression:
S 3
D 10++++++
A 10
C 3
P 3
W 5
I 6
01 - Recklessness
01 - Sprint
02 - Nimble
04 - Quick Tinkering
06 - Grenadier
08 - Fatal Throw
10 - Three-Pointer
12 - Ripper
14 - Critical Power
16 - Cheap Shots
18 - Taste for Blood
20 - Expose Weakness
22 - Blitz
24 - Weaponsmith
This way knifes are far from useless but like I said, they still seem inferior to combat gloves which have a stun potential with Combo and good debufs with Wrestling and Bone Breaker (knife fighter has the Kukri though). A DEX based unarmed fighter has worse critical chance and damage but can reach 4 AP attacks which equals many attacks even without Blitz.
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This way knifes are far from useless but like I said, they still seem inferior to combat gloves which have a stun potential with Combo and good debufs with Wrestling and Bone Breaker (knife fighter has the Kukri though). A DEX based unarmed fighter has worse critical chance and damage but can reach 4 AP attacks which equals many attacks even without Blitz.
But unarmed does only 5-9 dmg.
Would bare hand build even work ?
7/10++/6+/7+++/3/3/5
01 - Recklessness
01 - Sprint
02 - Opportunist
04 - Lightning Punches
06 - Hit and run or Fancy footwork
08 - Cheap shots
10 - Bone breaker
12 - Combo
14 - Crittical power
16 - Survival instrincts
18 - Taste for Blood
20 - Expose Weakness
22 - Thick Skull
24 - Wrestling
Force Emission for boost dmg.
Would droping blitz and Opportunist for survival instincts and thick skull would be good idea?
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PSI assassin
S 3
D 10++++++
A 6
C 3
P 3
W 10
I 5
01 - Recklessness
01 - Sprint
02 - Nimble
04 - Lightning punches
06 - Cheap Shots
08 - Premeditation
10 - Cryogenic induction
12 - Combo
14 - Critical Power
16 - Locus of control
18 - Taste for Blood
20 - Expose Weakness
22 - Bone breaker
24 - Vile weaponry
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Hi guys,
Question for you: I am arriving on the Deep Caverns. I play a crossbow guy.
My crossbow does 38-70dps + 23% chance of critical bonus. I have some shock bolt II, serrated bold, poisoned bolt and incendiary bolt I & II.
Do you think I am good to the end like this or I will never be able to finish it?
My stealth is horrible just FYI :D
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(http://www.mediafire.com/convkey/430c/272cct0z24c0qdvzg.jpg)
The equipment should consist of:
1 damage dealer crossbow - Scoped (anatomically-aware) Super Zephyr Crossbow. Tornado is stronger but has fewer, weaker criticals, a 2% CtH penalty and also important - 15% instead of 10% move and shoot penalty. Ideally you'll be shooting first and then moving but now and then you won't be able to do so because sometimes you'll have to hide behind a corner to lure the enemy in your trap, and when he steps on it he'll be rooted and you likely won't see him unless you step out from cover again. Also on some rare occasion a bug happens where the enemies can fire at you but you can't fire back unless you move. This problem is not special to crossbows and can happen with any ranged weapon.
1 special bolt spammer crossbow - Scoped (anatomically-aware) Pneumatic Cyclone Crossbow. I'll get more to it later.
This is a really cool build, so thanks Wildan. But how is it affected by the Bowyer feat?
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This is a really cool build, so thanks Wildan. But how is it affected by the Bowyer feat?
It's just a direct upgrade to Critical Power. Extra 90% critical damage on all crossbows. If you are using the build described here I would replace Pack Rathound with it, which should be soon enough for you to make use of it before the Institute/DC.
I'll take the opportunity to say once again that I love where crossbows are at the moment. I think they're in the sweet spot of game balance that all of the weapon classes ought to occupy.
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(http://www.mediafire.com/convkey/430c/272cct0z24c0qdvzg.jpg)
The equipment should consist of:
1 damage dealer crossbow - Scoped (anatomically-aware) Super Zephyr Crossbow. Tornado is stronger but has fewer, weaker criticals, a 2% CtH penalty and also important - 15% instead of 10% move and shoot penalty. Ideally you'll be shooting first and then moving but now and then you won't be able to do so because sometimes you'll have to hide behind a corner to lure the enemy in your trap, and when he steps on it he'll be rooted and you likely won't see him unless you step out from cover again. Also on some rare occasion a bug happens where the enemies can fire at you but you can't fire back unless you move. This problem is not special to crossbows and can happen with any ranged weapon.
1 special bolt spammer crossbow - Scoped (anatomically-aware) Pneumatic Cyclone Crossbow. I'll get more to it later.
This is a really cool build, so thanks Wildan. But how is it affected by the Bowyer feat?
I playing now (just postponed it for sledgehammer build) crossbower, and while traps greatly help in certain places, for expierinced player they trivialize things too much, and I almost don't use them in late-game (I haven't been in DC yet).
So if someone experienced with the game, I recommend go without traps - you will get more free skillpoints and 2 feats.
Here is the build I actually want to play http://underrail.info.tm/build/?AwGloJgVhBmEYEZT0TeB2M3GxuEXJPEDGADgNGWuAJsLu3oisJAg4E44AWOciF6goiBPCgA2UmLIguqYNMQRyQA
You can find that Snipe and Ambush is excessive when both are taken, dunno, didn't used them yet so I don't know.
Also Paranoia can be a bit overkill with 15 Perception, for me it is fine.
So you can replace 2 feats for something you like more, or even more - e.g. Evasive Maneuvers, Concussive Shots, Kneecap Shot, Recklessnes or Nimble.
Not as powerful as build with traps, but powerful enough to complete game I think.
I just don't like to spend feats for situational fights when traps make things easier - I'll better use bear traps with zero skill before fight, and plan my fight than I spent feats on that, because most of the fights doesn't require that.
I'll take the opportunity to say once again that I love where crossbows are at the moment.
True.
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Here is the build I actually want to play http://underrail.info.tm/build/?AwGloJgVhBmEYEZT0TeB2M3GxuEXJPEDGADgNGWuAJsLu3oisJAg4E44AWOciF6goiBPCgA2UmLIguqYNMQRyQA
I recommend taking Snipe as soon as you can at level 6, don't put it off. It is unbelievably good for a crossbow user - taking it early turns Depot A into a mutant bloodbath.
I took both Snipe and Ambush and if I had to choose one, it would be Snipe, absolutely no contest.
Edit: I'd take Special Tactics as soon as possible too, as Wildan's build recommends; it's another game changer.
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Well, I did Deport A without it, but if I did not then take Quick Tinkering then, I would take Snipe.
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That is a pretty good build Fenix, but you are very weak against melee enemies without Quick Tinkering, with mostly stealth-gear and only decent-good initiative.
You got to know what you are doing with 3 con, no dodge, no armor and 25 initiative, sooner or later you will be caught out of stealth...
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Well, you can put skill points in dodge instead.
Or in dodge AND evasion minus persuasion.
At least there will be no stealth enemies for you, so you can plan your fights.
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This is a really cool build, so thanks Wildan. But how is it affected by the Bowyer feat?
It's just a direct upgrade to Critical Power. Extra 90% critical damage on all crossbows. If you are using the build described here I would replace Pack Rathound with it, which should be soon enough for you to make use of it before the Institute/DC.
I'll take the opportunity to say once again that I love where crossbows are at the moment. I think they're in the sweet spot of game balance that all of the weapon classes ought to occupy.
I agree. I am on my fourth playthrough, and I find crossbows to be very versatile. Not as much raw firepower as guns, but more stun and other effects. And stun is so powerful in Underrail.
I have to echo the others who say that crossbows are in a very good place right now. Their balance serves as an example for the other builds.