Messages

16

Development Log / Re: Dev Log #18: Lower Underrail and Mad Hattering

« on: May 29, 2013, 02:03:04 am »

He probably meant decrease psi costs, but yeah I'm guessing even if it does increase it it will be because it also increases the damage or critical chance of some skill.

17

Suggestions / Re: Noob Question

« on: May 14, 2013, 10:52:22 pm »

Just to add to what lazymonk said, two areas I know respawn enemies are the underground passage between South Gate Station and Junkyard (the psi-beetles), and the tunnels under the passage between the top of south gate station and omega station (that first mission with gorsky). So the bandits with lead pipes and such. Not the best farming grounds  . Not sure what other areas there are, but I'm sure there will be more.

I think there was some excitement in the encounters in Fallout or Fallout 2 because they were so varied, and some had amazing weapons you could use if you somehow survived their assault (or sell). So maybe that adds a little bit more in terms of replayability than it would here; but I don't know if the main draw is replayability. Its really just that it makes the game more interesting and allows you to barter goods if you ever become broke.

18

Discussions / Re: RPG Discussion Thread

« on: May 11, 2013, 02:45:07 am »

Thanks for the comments, guys.

The difference in a game like Fallout is that it is the opposite of Oblivion in all of these areas.  First of all you have the ability to actually make choices; secondly, the quests have a clear influence on the world and how people perceive you, and what kinds of quests you are eligible for based on your decisions.

I very much agree.

But I think a more fair comparison to make would be Fallout 1, which was a masterpiece, and Fallout 3, which was merely a good game. Assuming it's fair to compare these two games, Fallout 3 had a fun combat system, but the choices and consequences were mostly trivial. It came down to this: either help one group and get reward A or help another group and get reward B. It was certainly a better game than Oblivion, but it wasn't a masterpiece, for many of the same reasons. Sure, you could blow up Megaton, which was awesome! But one good example of consequence doesn't make up for a general lack of depth, compared to the original game. It didn't make me feel paranoid that if I made the wrong decision there would be unforeseen consequences that actually mattered to the plot. A good example is that there was no way to fail dialogue in Fallout 3, I simply exhausted every dialogue option to get as much information as I wanted. While Fallout 1, in stark contrast, I felt like every choice mattered, including everything I said.

If every dialogue option and every action really mattered in Fallout 3, it could have been great (or greater).

Yeah it's probably a much better idea to compare it to Fallout 3 . And I think you summarized the problem well; the quests were too trivial, too binary...too obvious. There wasn't enough depth, like you get in a game like Torment.  It really makes me realize what the true value of Fallout was, it was those interesting quests that led from one city to another. For example (spoilers for anyone who hasn't beat Fallout 2!) - I think Fallout 2 had a great quest line, where Vault City was being attacked by raiders, and these raiders were secretly working through the Bishop family in New Reno, who in turn were being payed by some congressmen in the NCR. The NCR was trying to pressure Vault City into caving in and becoming a part of the NCR in order to protect itself against attacks by raiders, which it secretly was conducting. Its a much more interesting, complicated chain that relates different city-states to each other, and it was a great experience to unravel the conspiracy, and decide what the fate would be of entire cities this way.

Fallout 3 is simplistic. They did an *amazing* job with the atmosphere of the vaults though, I was actually freaked out in one of them that contained hallucinations, and wanted to escape as soon as I could. But yet again the game has no real depth, so it just feels like a big, empty world, with more quantity in terms of space and similar looking ruins to visit, but not enough quality in terms of the quests that are given.

I would add my two cents that comparing different types of RPGs aren't really cutting it. The differences are just too wide. Postapocalyptic and fantasy, turn based and real time, isometric and first person. Also I would say that creating such condensed and waried world in normal fantasy setting as was made in Fallout is really hard. Maybe after some kind of catalysm where only remains are left and ruins stick out here and there. But afterall it's different kind of story.

Don't be mistaken - I'm not defending Oblivion . I'm just saying that there are things that can't really be compared as much of this is really dependent on player knowledge, immersion and love of numbers. Which is more important - story or freedom? Epicness or emergency? Japanese-type romance options or ability to get philosophical conversation with a bum on the side of the road?

I must say that I do love story based games, maybe because I'm writing a bit myself. But I also cherish party based combat (turn based would be the best...) and discovering different solutions to the problem (and avoiding grinding). The idea of GTA with swords (some people said that about Oblivion/Skyrim) doesn't really appeal to me. Differentiating between subquests and main quests (don't you hate it when all of the sudden 'plot twist' comes alive and turns everything around?), making my way up the ladder to legendary hero and creating something (like NN 2 castle... even that little thing was glorious for me) makes all the difference in the world.

Of course I do like normal RPG with great story too. Actually I can wade through many things in order to finish it and KNOW. Sadly we're living in the era where it's mostly elves and dwarves dominating the RPGs and no more interesting topics are emerging. Nor more interesting heroes.

Also I love Suikoden .

I see what you're getting at, I can definitely understand your wariness to compare these games that seem worlds apart! But I think when you boil it down, you can compare them on the basis of the things you've mentioned and see which type of RPG experience works out better.  For instance take the freedom vs storyline approach. First of all I think its clear that every RPG needs a little bit of both - you can't role play if you don't have some measure of freedom, and without a storyline or plot its just a boring game. I think my point is that, if you had to focus on one or the other, which produces a better game? I'm not sure its necessarily a subjective argument; I think you can see definitive returns on a more story-centric game that a freedom-centric game can't meet, and Bethesda's games are the prime example of this.

I mean its like being able to travel through the wilderness in any direction, or go in any number of caves or through the mountains, like in a game like Skyrim. Its really great for a while, and it certainly looks amazing. But after a while you realize you're going through very similar environments, and the novelty tends to wear off (at least it does for me). I think its not really worth playing the game if you are interacting with it on such a superficial level - you need something else. Of course I am exaggerating, and there are many quests and missions in Skyrim, some would say too many. But they are very simplistic - as I say its quantity over quality. They have binary outcomes, which are mostly predictable and have no impact on the world beyond their own enclosed area. So very quickly the game becomes more like a laundry list of chores to complete, not really to enjoy or think about deeply.

I think you're definitely right in that the story type can be subjective, such as romance or philosophy or epic heroism vs gritty realism. But when I compare Oblivion to Fallout I'm trying to relate some of the fundamental role playing mechanics that they share apart from how the story is told or its setting.

In terms of turn based vs real time combat, there is certainly a massive difference. But I would say you can find the common ground between them purely in terms of the complexity of combat; regardless of whether it is real time or turn based, I would enjoy a role playing game that makes it intricate, and involves many combinations of skills or party members working in tandem with each other (like the tactical, team-based combat that existed in Dragon Age: Origins - which was the first Dragon Age if I remember correctly).

Also in terms of isometric vs first person, there certainly is a big difference here and people have different preferences. But to me I don't think its crucial to the role-playing game experience; it would certainly modify the combat, but I think you can still make it a quality role playing game even if the viewing perspective is radically changed.

That's because, for me the fundamentals of a good RPG are player customization (weapons, stats, skills), complex dialogue and quests that impact each other and the world around you, and a complex combat system. And on these grounds I feel like you can compare Oblivion with what would seem to be a completely separate game like Fallout (i.e. the complex quests is directly related to having a story-centric focus on the game, where the game designer creates places and events for you, rather than you stumbling upon a randomly generated cave to explore).

Edit: Then again maybe there are those who really would prefer to play a more superficial game that has more to offer. I guess I would simply say, that for me, this is the type of RPG I would prefer to play and what I look forward to most in Underrail.

19

Suggestions / Re: Blackmoor's Money Suggestions

« on: May 11, 2013, 02:04:02 am »

Thanks for the reply . I guess I didn't realize it but you're right you can steal heavy weapons. I guess in the older system without the suspicion bar I never really had a chance to do that so it never really registered, and I haven't tried the new system yet. But if it works then that is basically what I was asking for; only I would tweak it in the way I described so that you can steal more later on. But this isn't because I need more money, just as a fun game play mechanic.

Also on the issue of money - for me personally, I only found it to be challenging at the beginning of the game (and this was when degradation rates were so high, and I couldn't really afford more than one repair kit).  But I think it is survivable, especially now with rates reduced. Certainly when you get into the mid to later stages of the game, there are so many opponents with great gear (especially energy weapons, although I know their costs have been reduced) that you can quickly amass a large sum of money, ammo, and medicinal supplies.

I guess one major thing I learned was that repairing a weapon or special piece of armor can provide a return that is greater than the price of buying a repair kit, and this works for multiple repairs. This was extremely useful to me, I'm kind of sad I had to go to the forums to discover it . This allowed me to buy back more repair kits, to the point where I would buy out all of the kits available and then spend the rest on ammo and stygian coins.

Also a good way to make a modest sum of money is to pick a bunch of mushrooms when you can (doesn't take too long), and also use the dog crates that are periodically restocked in the pens section of your base to capture more cave hoppers. You can sell them for a nice profit with good barter skill.

20

Suggestions / Re: Blackmoor's Money Suggestions

« on: May 10, 2013, 09:23:28 pm »

I feel like, at the very least, the option to steal more expensive weapons should be available to the dedicated pickpocket (as well as more money).

Lazymonk does make a good point in that stealing a bozar from the guard in F2 did seem a bit unfair. For me it resulted in save scumming to get a really good item, then selling it for enough money to buy my favorite weapon, the .223 pistol. But I strongly believe that that type of gameplay can be very fun if done in a fairer way - so for a person who invests a lot of points into pickpocket and stealth, they should have the option to steal heavier weaponry, and would be able to succeed in stealing it.

The same should go for money - as you become a better pickpocket, you are capable of stealing progressively more and more money from merchants that an ordinary thief couldn't get away with.

Currently I dislike the dynamic of filling up a bar and not being able to steal anymore, simply because it seems quite unrealistic. But I understand that something like it is necessary to prevent stealing from being either overpowered, or leading to save scumming.

I feel like a more reasonable approach, might be to allow the player to only steal a certain amount from the merchant (or other NPC). After that experience, the NPC will become more guarded, and his remaining items will be harder to steal. So only after you invest more points, will you have the option to steal those items available again, in addition to any larger items in his/her inventory. Since most characters will only have 4-5 items on them (where an item could also be a stack of money/ammo/etc.), I feel like this inventory categorization wouldn't take too much time.

Either way I hope Styg finds a way to incorporate an interesting but fair pickpocketing system into the game, which is hopefully a bit more realistic and allows for more progression as a pickpocket, so you could go back to older areas and still use the skill.

- - -

I like the suggestions for improvement on money in general, certainly with the locked chests at least. Also I am all favor of more skill-related quests.

Money is definitely hard to come by. I'm not even sure what its like to play a character that doesn't invest as many points into barter with each new level; I shudder to think at how difficult it would be to even buy one or two repair kits. Thankfully now degradation rates are reduced so its probably not as hellish as I imagine

21

Discussions / Re: RPG Discussion Thread

« on: May 08, 2013, 11:11:31 pm »

I think the easiest way for me to decide what distinguishes a good RPG from a bad one is to compare games like Fallout with games like Oblivion from Bethesda.

Oblivion didn't have any meaningful choices; first of all, I'm not even sure if you had any choices. But even the things you did do in certain guilds (like the mages guild) made (in almost all cases) no difference in the world. Its just a series of quests that you complete, and maybe you get to level up your character a bit, but ultimately it feels like the game you're playing is just an empty, meaningless world where you just do quest after quest...but there is nothing that is really driving you at all except the potential for acquiring a new spell, or finding new armor.

Also, at least in the RPGs that I like to play, combat has to be interesting and challenging. In Oblivion it was as simple as it could possibly be, and there weren't really any tactics to speak of. You just mash your slash button, and block when you're being hit. Or you cast spells and run around in a circle. I'll admit there may be some complexity added in when you summon minions, but its not much.

Finally the world has to be varied and interesting, with a number of settings and stories. I think I would sum up Oblivion as quantity over quality - it basically just repeats the same type of dungeons over and over again, with barely any meaningful change between them. The whole game feels like its a really tiresome grind, doing the same things over and over again, to access skills that are fun but not really worth the gameplay. Part of this is also the depth of characters around you; in Oblivion there is barely any meaningful dialogue; its typically one or two sentences, and its almost always "epic" dialogue that has no really depth to it except the same heroic vibe; i.e.  "FOR HONOUR!!", etc.

The difference in a game like Fallout is that it is the opposite of Oblivion in all of these areas.  First of all you have the ability to actually make choices; secondly, the quests have a clear influence on the world and how people perceive you, and what kinds of quests you are eligible for based on your decisions.

Combat is very tactical, due to the turn based nature of the game, there are tradeoffs depending on what weapons you use (melee, smg, assault, sniper, ammo type), positioning (fire and hide, fight in a corridor) The aimed shot system allows for a great variety of shots that can slow your enemy down (legs), cripple them (arms), or blind them (eyes). Grenades could also be used to stun or damage a group. I think it at least had a lot more variety.

The atmosphere was great, the locations were varied and interesting (from the remains of a pre-war research facility that was the center of a nuclear bomb attack, to a gun manufacturing town surrounding by a moat of radioactive sludge).  The conversations involved paragraphs, and some required you to pay attention and think carefully about your answers. All of this created a rich game in which I could have the pleasure of leveling up my character, and applying my skills to influence the world around me.

So I guess to summarize, it has to have meaningful choice and consequence, engaging combat, and an interesting atmosphere and story that you can replay from different angles.  I at least like the idea Bethesda repeatedly brings up of "radiant AI" but which horribly fails nearly every time, and one day I think we can create truly emergent game play and AI. But for now I really enjoy a deep, well-crafted story more than a big, stale, repetitive playground where I fight the same types of foes over and over again for no real reason.

22

General / Re: extremely slow by steady progress..working as intended?

« on: May 03, 2013, 04:01:28 am »

Since its part of a quest I don't think its a big spoiler to let you know; but the crossbow should be in a locker in the lower levels of your station where the agronomy and pens are. Just talk to the chemist/biologist working on a burrower, he'll have a mission for you, and give you his crossbow for free (you have to take it from the locker).

Also, the way I dealt with rathounds was basically to use special perks. Knee shot combined with sprint is very useful, as is aimed shot for saving ammo. But the biggest tip I have is just to use the fences. If you sprint to one, close the door, then end your turn, the rathounds will pile up on the other side of the fence and you can shoot them through the holes in the fence one at a time (use aimed shot to save ammo too). You could use mines and tranquilizer bolts, its just that at the start of the game things are pretty expensive and way too hard to craft, and those items really should not be wasted on rathounds.

If you don't have a fence I would try to do a combination of aimed shot, knee shot, utilizing all of your movements points to maximize distance, and using sprint if necessary (if you have the perk). It should be fine, although its still challenging. Also don't forget the explosive barrels for one part in those caves...

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Development Log / Re: Dev Log #16: Pickpocketing and Feats Changes

« on: April 20, 2013, 01:15:34 am »

Thank you for reducing the weapon degradation rates! That was my favorite part. Looking forward to experimenting with pickpocketing

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General / Re: Junkyard/Elwood -*SPOILERS*-

« on: April 07, 2013, 01:27:04 am »

Yeah you have to be committed to pickpocketing. Really its a bad skill except when you finally get to 70-80 points (including sneak of course), although pickpocketing elwood is probably the one exception where its useful.  I think there would come some point, where you're finally able to sneak and steal easily, but even at level 12 I haven't reached that yet! (and I found some leather armor that gives +23 to stealth). Oh well I still stole a bunch of good stuff, so it was fun and I think probably worth it later on.

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General / Re: How long is the Alhpa 0.1.7.0.?

« on: April 07, 2013, 01:23:27 am »

Also once you finish the Vera quest, I think that activates yet another quest line from the wheezing dude Abrahm at the Junktown bar (when you enter, with the merchant who sells all the food). I think I finished the game, the only part left is that weird obelisk when you take the boat to the silent Isle (it should still be there in 1.7.0). That part is pretty hard (dopplegangers...), and also I think you need a character with strong willpower to deal with the obelisk. I'm so curious as to what happens, but I never managed to create a high willpower character.

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General / Re: Durability and Combat Sequence

« on: April 07, 2013, 01:18:51 am »

I can initiate combat all the time, but that's because I use sneak, and then when I get into a good position I press enter and I can start combat how I like. If you walk in range of the enemy, then yeah all of your enemies will attack first.

Another thing you might do is wait around the corner, start combat, and then walk around and shoot and I guess you won't need sneak, but it would be difficult in some cases, and the other problem is you lose "focus" so your aim will likely be bad. So I recommend putting some points into sneak.

But otherwise maybe it would be a good idea to add something like sequence, so players with higher agility get to fire/move first.

Also I hope the repair issue is modified too, I think a lot of other people are voicing their concerns about it so something will probably be modified in upcoming patches, since the whole reason they were implemented (to prevent players from amassing too much wealth) apparently isn't even working as intended according to Styg's patch notes.  I hope he doesn't decide to increase the durability loss, because that would suck the fun out of the game by making ranged combat virtually impossible or extraordinarily irritating!

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General / Re: Junkyard/Elwood -*SPOILERS*-

« on: April 04, 2013, 07:02:18 pm »

hah. Wow it looks like i'm the only one who actually pickpocketed him! I didn't even know the corridor was isolated enough to kill him, I figured traps were the only way to do it undetected. Now I know

28

General / Re: Good ways to make money?

« on: April 04, 2013, 07:00:29 pm »

When I needed money I used to hunt cave hoppers with my belowed crowbar. 

Yup, the never degrading crowbar. That must be a relief to use!

I kind of wish I could do some gambling in this game, like in the Fallout games. Styg already created a casino, just need to add the functionality! Although I imagine it would be pretty low on the to-do list, if it even went on the list in the first place. I hope he does though, gambling is always fun

29

General / Good ways to make money?

« on: April 02, 2013, 02:13:41 pm »

Hey everyone.

I was wondering what people have found the best ways of making money are? First of all I'd recommend putting points into barter, as money can save you from needing to specialize in a discipline to say, create explosives to set traps with and the like (although you might be missing out on some specialized traps).

I found a few things that might be helpful for new players:

Collecting mushrooms (very tedious lol)
Collecting mindshrooms every hour or so (after clearing out the areas).
You can also buy hopper cages from the guy across the hall from the biology lab in your base, and use them to catch hoppers and resell those cages for a higher value.  The easiest way to catch hoppers is by standing outside one of the crevices they come out of, turn on combat mode, then catch them using a hopper cage dragged onto your quickbar. You can buy 15 cages at once.

I found (stole) a fishing rod, but I haven't managed to use it yet so I'm not sure how valuable eels might be.

Most lucrative so far:
Repairing energy weapons to max, then buying a bunch of electronic repair kits to make up for the kits you lost in repairing it, plus any number of other items you need (I have found that an energy pistol sells for 15,000 stygian coins (just realized this was named after the creator ), which is an incredible sum of money.

Repairing mechanical weapons to max (or near max), then buying mechanical repair kits to make up for those lost in repairing, plus any other items like ammo.

At level 8 barter skill the mechanical repair kits have a value of 800, and the electronic kits have a value of 1,000. So just ensure your repair increases the value of your weapon (or armor) by more than those amounts, and you can sell for a profit.

To maximize the amount of money I make, I also went into stealth and pickpocket. Adding a piece of leather armor that adds to stealth, and getting the relevant perks (make sure you get nimble if you go this route), I've managed to steal some nice items off of people, and its one of the most exciting parts of the game .

Anyway, was just curious if anyone has found other ways? With mechanical repair kits being so expensive, its good to find ways to earn cash. Of course you might not use weapons altogether or those that degrade slowly, but still. I'm now at the point where I have 30 mechanical repair kits and 8 electronic ones (the latter purely reserved for the cash cow energy weapons) for use. Its *SUCH* a relief to not have to worry about repair now .

30

General / Re: Item degrading gamebreaking

« on: March 29, 2013, 03:19:53 pm »

It is difficult, it definitely is. You have to be judicious with your shots and use aimed shot a lot, but even then the weapons degrade fast and repair kits are expensive. I don't know how hard it would be to buy them if I didn't decide to maximize my barter skill with every level; and I'm not sure how easy they are to make.  You have to find replacement guns, basically, and hope you find enough ammo as well, or get ready to fight enemies with bare fists and constantly go back to base to heal. Also using your psi abilities, I don't understand how people can do that. Psi boosters are expensive too...unless they suggest getting the shroomhead perk and constantly going back to those few places that have mindshrooms and waiting?

Basically having a maxed barter skill is a must. I think I'm going to do what one person did and repair a really good weapon with a repair kit and see if I can't get more money back. Most likely if I can this is a glitch which will be fixed by Styg. But in return I hope he lowers the durability loss, because although it is manageable if you are very judicious, I feel like this isn't the type of challenge the game should be presenting. It should revolve more around the tactics of combat, not maintaining weaponry.

Also he says that there is *still* a problem in the late game with characters having access to too much loot, so his whole maintenance idea, which was meant to solve this problem, apparently still doesn't work. All that you're doing is creating a tedious exercise for characters who are near the mid-to-late stages of the game to have to buy weapon/armor repair kits (if the latter are even necessary), and a frustrating exercise for beginner players who have to play in a really lame way using fists when their guns break as all the weapons they find off enemies are useless. It does encourage some ingenuity in shooting rathounds through fences and using explosive barrels well, but overall your options are somewhat limited. Psi doesn't regenerate and I am not spending tons of cash to buy one psi booster that will allow me to do far less damage than a gun can long-term.

I wouldn't say its gamebreaking, it is manageable, but certainly something that needs to be modified significantly. I would prefer it be removed entirely, and that Styg finds a more enjoyable solution to his problem; because the whole gameplay mechanic is just irritating and not fun to deal with, especially with the rates of degradation as they are (although it is challenging - but again I'd prefer a different type of challenge). I feel like all he really has to do is fiddle with the prices of items so that lower-tier items are accessible to a certain level-range, while higher tier items cost proportionately more to what the player is able to find in dungeon areas.