Underrail Forum
Underrail => General => Topic started by: Alashion on July 19, 2015, 07:36:50 am
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I've tried playing as a melee fighter, a psi fighter, a crossbow fighter, and my latest character is a gun fighter. I hit a wall and my damage seems to drop off significantly after I go through the drill-part quest in the junk yard (even somewhat during it fighting the mutants) I just end up getting my ass kicked by everything.
My current character is a gun user, it just seems like I can't put out enough damage even though I buy the best guns I can find and max out my gun every time I level up. It also seems like guns have a silly short range even though I have high gun skill ( I meet the requirements for my weapons I checked) what am I doing wrong?
Current char has
Str 7
Dex 6
Agility 5 (6)
Con 5
Perception 8
Will 5
Intelligence 6
Skills
Guns 50 (67)
Melee 10 (12)
Dodge 25 (31)
Evasion 25 (31)
Stealth 50 (75)
Hacking 50 (58)
Locking 50 (58)
Pickpocketing 50 (58)
Traps 50 (58)
Mechanics 35 (40)
Tailoring 5
My feats are
Aimed shot
Burgler
Nimble
Psi Empathy
Kneecap shot
Ambush
Full auto
I am currently using a 8.6mm Marauder (11-33) and the H&K MP5.
It just seems like I can't do enough damage to anything before it kills me. . . did I build wrong? Are you suppoed to min-max for your build in this game and I messed up every time?
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It didn't seem like there was all that much to explore before going there though, I did absolutely every quest I could find. Every single one in the Junkyard for both gangs. Do you mean just wandering off into the caves or something?
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Quests give lesser part of leveling, exploration - biggest.
At least in oddity system.
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Is it easier to level with oddity? I know in normal leveling the exp you get from oddities is negligible, is it better if you switch to oddity leveling?
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Oddity is the default XP system that gives you a good amount of XP as long as you're constantly exploring new areas, which happens naturally as you progress through the game. You will get reasonable XP no matter what your approach to clearing those areas is, whether you're a stealth character or a combat character.
On Classic, it's very easy to be behind on levels unless you're taking the violent approach to everything, hence I would only recommend Classic for highly effective combat builds that want to hunt higher-level enemies for XP.
I suspect you would be a few levels higher on Oddity, yes. Classic requires a pretty big commitment to killing and the like if you want to keep up. This is the reason why Oddity is default: it's suitable for all builds, and there's no pressure to play the game any specific way. Even without lockpicking/hacking there's still plenty of oddities to be found.
If you're not enjoying your build, I would probably recommend restarting on Oddity, with a slightly more minmaxed build. The thing about minmaxing in this game is that an effective build also tends to be a more fun build. The more you specialize in order to get the most out of a specific approach to the game, the more effective you are, and the more unique your build is. Various feats and equipment from crafting can come together in a very satisfying manner.
In addition to being underleveled, a partial reason why your gun damage is lacking is probably the combination of low perception, and the fact that you're buying guns. Of all builds, guns benefit perhaps the most from crafting, as you utilize 7 intelligence feats like Gun Nut. And even without those feats, crafted guns tend to be stronger.
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Can you give an example of an encounter you're having trouble with? Rifles are one of those builds that if specced and geared correctly have a rather easy time once you get a rifle, night vision and armor. Your build in general, seems all over the place. While I don't want to pigeonhole you into a specific path I think the build should be more focused at least in the beginning, especially if you want to tackle encounters that out level you early.
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I'm not the TC, but I'm kinda in the same boat as him and I've been thinking about starting over because of it - a bit of a drag but no big deal. I've noticed the burrowers you find in the GMS sealed vault seem to be kicking my rear, along with the thugs in/around Junkyard (for example the 3 thugs in the little shack 2 maps away from Junkyard), and I suspect that the TC may be having the same problems. My damage output against them is miserable and they're able to walk all over me. I've read the suggestions in this thread and have been slowly inching towards making a fresh start as I am now aware that I've definitely made mistakes with him, but wanted to get some opinions on whether or not my current dude is salvageable. He's an Stealth-SMG/pistol kinda dude.
Lvl. 7
STR 4
DEX 6
AGI 8
CON 3
PER 7
WIL 6
INT 7
(Omitted skills have 0 points)
Guns 40
Dodge 27
Evasion 27
Stealth 32
Hacking 40
Locks 43
Traps 5
Mech 31
Elec 29
Chem 13
Bio 13
Tailor 20
Metatherm 18
Persuasion 11
Intimidation 11
Feats:
Aimed Shot
Expertise
Nimble
Disassemble
Hit and Run
Certainly would appreciate friendly input! Thanks!
EDIT: Playing Normal/Oddity
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Better focus your skillpoints on skills you can use early on.
Don't think you need Biology and such that early.
Also, for stealth build you don't need 8 Agi, you need firepower, wich is Dex for pistoleros.
And you need Str for steadfast Aim, which is must have for pistol builds.
You need firepower first, defence second because foes are many, and you are only one.
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Actually, steadfast Aim isn't a necessity, there's Expertise and crits, so firerate can compensate if you find enough ammo.
Strength 3 or 6, 4 is... suboptimal.
Otherwise, yeah, less agi, more dex.
It is salvageable, but I'd rate it as playing somewhat akin to "hard mode".
Also, a Will over 5 demands more investment in Psi, especially psychokinesics.
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Thanks for the input fellas. I've read a bunch of other topic about building characters and along with your advice I made a new character yesterday. Same general concept but more optimized and now with some throwing skill to account for the shortcomings of the SMG! I'll post the build as it is later on - as of the time I post this, I managed to get right back to where I left off on my old character, and now the enemies are much more manageable - at least, the thugs in the junkyard are. The burrowers in the GMS vault still wreck me but not quite as badly as with my old character! Thanks again!
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You don't have to go everything you can just because you can. ;)
Glad it worked out for you.
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Don't want to derail the thread further but I love SMG's so whatever.
Starting attributes:
10 Dex
7 Agi- At least 6 for spec ops, I like hit and run so I go to 7
7 int- Gun nut, not sure if it's worth it
7 Per- It's still a guns build
Dump the rest
The only thing I'm uncertain about is how to allocate the subsequent attribute points. There are a lot of options and considerations. Do you want to fire more often or do you prefer more damage and accuracy? Do you prefer to shoot more 5 round bursts or less 7 round bursts? Do you prefer to shoot larger caliber SMG's less often or do you prefer to fire smaller caliber SMG's less often?
I went with 16 dex because I wanted to be able to fire the 4 8.6 steel cat 7 round bursts every other turn. You can't do it every turn since you need to reload them in order to fire the full 7 round burst, so every other round you'll be firing 3 7 round bursts. I'm honestly not sure if it's more effective than stopping at 12 or 13 dex, using 7.62 SMG's, and putting the rest in Per. 5mm jaguars are good at any level but in terms of damage per hit they are significantly weaker than the other calibers so you probably want a stronger options against tanky targets.
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One thing you have to keep in mind is that you'll likely have serious trouble sourcing ammunition.
Relying on different calibres helps in this case.
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One thing you have to keep in mind is that you'll likely have serious trouble sourcing ammunition.
This. Take more perception, less dex, to make each bullet matter more. Especially if you are not going to use laser sight.
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Guys, are we playing the same game? I have stacks upon stacks of 5mm, 7.62, 8.6 and that's without buying it. Remember, past the drill parts the economy of the game is never an issue. I view the usage of a single ammo type as a very small benefit, just one less thing to hassle with. Even after one shop run you can simply buy the type of ammo you need from every vendor that sells it and you should have at least 600 rounds of the ammo you need. 8.6 hits hard as hell so you never need to use a lot of it. 7.62 is probably the most common ammo type in the game. 5mm is probably the second most common. I never make decisions based on economics in this game, it's foolish.
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Alright folks, here's the new character build that I've been playing around with. I've been satisfied with my combat with him so far, but would appreciate input again as a lot of my later skill and feat choices reflect that I'm experimenting with various things and are likely not completely optimal. I'll start with at creation first:
STR 3
DEX 9
AGI 6 (tops off at 7 for Interloper)
CON 3
WIL 3
PER 9
INT 7 (for Disassemble)
Guns 15
Throwing 10
Dodge 15
Evasion 15
Stealth 13
Hacking 12
Lockpick 10
Mech 10
Elec 10
Tailor 10
Nimble
Expertise
And here is how he is currently, just about to start the Core City line of quests and standing at level 17 currently:
DEX 12
AGI 7
1-Nimble
1-Expertise
2-Opportunist
4-Disassemble
6-Interloper
8-Spec Ops
10-Grenadier
12-Three Pointer
14-Commando
16-Doctor
(18)-Hit and Run
Guns 95
Throw 50
Dodge 93
Evasion 93
Stealth 44
Hacking 63
Lock 47
Traps 17
Mech 64
Elec 60
Chem 31
Bio 29
Tailor 64
Intimidation 10
The logic behind my choice of which skills to raise was basically just to ensure I got the SMG burst related feats ASAP, with evasion, stealth and throwing related feats being the next choices in that order, and everything else being an afterthought. As such my guns and defense skills were maxed (or close to it) each level, followed by my main subterfuge skills, then my main tailoring skills, then everything else. Doctor is there partially to get through a single quest and partially because I found it annoying to have to use a hypo if I got just a fraction of a percent below 40% health (which often gets displayed as 40%!) though I haven't run into a shortage of health hypos yet.
With regards to my tactics, I use stealth to close with the enemy, wait until they are bunched up and toss a grenade in (typically an incendiary), followed up by as many bursts as I safely can loose. I've found that opportunist doesn't really have a chance to be utilized with this particular style, and Hit and Run would have been a better choice as I would have been able to fall back and give myself space to make another strike, escape, etc. I thought I would be using flashbangs to utilize the benefit of opportunist but there just aren't many flashbangs available prior to, and even a quite a few levels/quests after, the drill quest. Sure Step would also have meshed well since I also like to use caltrops to create chokepoints and warn me of potential flanks and even kill flankers before they can get to me, but of course they deny the area to me as well which has been troublesome on more than one occasion, and I figure now that I ought to have picked that over Three Pointer. Fortunately none of these problems have proven crippling to this playthrough so far!
Guys, are we playing the same game? I have stacks upon stacks of 5mm, 7.62, 8.6 and that's without buying it. Remember, past the drill parts the economy of the game is never an issue. I view the usage of a single ammo type as a very small benefit, just one less thing to hassle with. Even after one shop run you can simply buy the type of ammo you need from every vendor that sells it and you should have at least 600 rounds of the ammo you need. 8.6 hits hard as hell so you never need to use a lot of it. 7.62 is probably the most common ammo type in the game. 5mm is probably the second most common. I never make decisions based on economics in this game, it's foolish.
I'm also going to echo this sentiment here. Even though my playthrough isn't optimal I don't find myself short for ammo, at least standard ammo; I do go through a lot of W2C and JHP but even then I rarely find myself having to dig in to the standard ammo. As a matter of fact I've started carrying less ammo since I find myself hurting for encumbrance more often than I do for ammo, and on more than one occasion I've found myself walking out of a fight with more bullets for my guns than before the fight! I'll say though that I think a lot of it is helped by, as one of us said earlier, using more than one caliber, at current I've been using a 7.62 and an 8.6 gun, with the 7.62 being nice for taking out trash and 8.6 for dealing with more threatening opponents.
EDIT: Forgot PER and Intimidation
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Huh. Your build is similar to mine with the notable exception being the stealth. Those points in traps are a complete waste IMO. Honesly SMG's seem to be one of the most lenient builds feat wise. The only must haves are probably spec ops, expertise, and commando. BTW you forgot to mention how much Per you have I assume it's 8.
My feat progression:
L1-Sprint, hit and run
L2-Gun nut
L4-Expertise
L6-Supressive fire. It works well with evasion, but I'm not sure it's necessary since 99.9% of the time you kill everything before it gets a turn. According to the wiki it will synergise with opportunist, then it will be a must have.
L8-spec ops
L10-Skinner. If I understand the feat correctly it buffs the component twice. Once when you create infused leather and another for the actual item, that's a huge buff.
L12-Grenadier
L14-Commando
L16-Three pointer
L18- Nimble
L20-Power management
I'm most curious about why you took opportunist so early? Are you using the electroshock pistol, taser, or throwing nets? The only way I'll take opportunist on my guy is if I get quick pockets. I'm using the ammo belt for faster reloads and that allows for only three utility slots. Replacing frags, emp's, or flashbangs for a net or taser is a no go. I also want to have 2 SMG's to fire more and reload less so electroshock isn't worth it either.
Edit: I would also raise stealth every level if I went that route and chemistry until I reach at least 69. MKIII nades become relatively available so raising chemistry up to 50 doesn't give you much. MKIV and MKV are rarely dropped and never sold. So either 69 or 112 is the way to go.
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Thanks for catching that-it's actually 9 PER I've got. My experiences so far have me leaning towards the opinion that it does not have to be that high, and I could get along well enough with 7 minimum.
From my experience, Opportunist wasn't the best of feats to have that early. I would have replaced it with Hit and Run, if I knew then what I knew now. I did try using nets a few times but I just found it easier to lead in with a grenade, hose down the leftovers with bursts, and fall back if necessary. The flashbangs find the most value for the opportunist feat here and only now have they come into significant numbers, so it was essentially a waste to have opportunist that early as I experienced it. It might work better with more throwing skill in order to make those nets worthwhile, but that's just more points that could be used elsewhere.
The points in traps I'll agree are a waste. I was mostly just experimenting with the trapper belt and the jackknife to see if I pull something worthwhile out of it with a minimum of investment into the skill but so far it's just been a waste of time and points seeing as everything still explodes in my face or can't be disarmed, and mines are easily dealt with by using basic nades to trigger them (and sometimes chain them, though I haven't had any luck in catching some poor bastard with them yet).
The investment in chem/bio is definitely to get myself making the high quality nades, so I'll keep on with it. Thanks for the input!
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Flashbangs aren't beneficial with weapons that rely on multiple hits to do their damage. Yeah, you get one hit which does 35$ more damage but who cares? For SMG's and knives stuns slowdons, and immobilization is where it's at.
Don't bring bio past 60 if you aren't relying on psi crits if you are, go up to 70, but no higher than that.