Underrail Forum
Underrail => General => Topic started by: SubterminalOptimization on February 22, 2018, 11:23:36 am
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Hi! I've enjoyed this game very much, approximately 200 hours worth so far. I'm sure this will strike many players as weird, but I approach this game as a puzzle game in optimization.
So far, I have only ever played variations of one build (assault rifles with core feats commando / suppressive&opportunist / full-auto / concentrated fire) and on one patch (current / 1.0.3.20; not sure if I played on a slightly different version before that). I have done several full run-throughs (starting with normal difficulty and proceeding to dominating). For my runs (and purposes of discussion here) no Export/Import of characters, CheatEngine, file editing, bugs**, etc. are involved.
I have just today completed a run at Level 16* on Dominating but was able to confirm that at least 1 (and likely 2) feats are unnecessary, though I'm not sure about how many skill points can be cut. So far I am not having to save/load an outrageous amount (almost certainly less than 1000 loads throughout the whole run, Deep Caverns from elevator to elevator only took ~2.1 hours real time). Tchort itself only took 3 attempts (no mutagen puzzle).
To be clear though, I am not optimizing for time, only minimizing level for now. Has anybody else attempted this or theorycrafted on the topic? I admit I didn't search too much because I believe Dominating is relatively new and I also wasn't sure whether this is the same as a "challenge run" or other terminology. The only challenge involved should be the optimization and planning. In fact, the execution has gotten extremely easy for the most part as each piece has been figured out in detail (though this will probably change at lower level).
Is there a different build that I should attempt for lower levels? My goal is probably 14 with stretch goal of 12. It's actually not even clear to me how exactly I should best proceed below 14 right now, but I believe 14 should definitely be doable with very close to the approach I am using now. I don't have much evidence but based on my limited experience it is hard to imagine sub-12 being possible even with perfect luck (unless there is some insanely broken item or skill I am unaware of). Am I wrong here?
Lunatic Mall and Tchort seem to be the two gatekeepers so far, though the IRIS Core Fight is probably going to become non-skippable and might be an issue (I've embarrassingly never tried that fight in any play through). Though painful and arduous, I can imagine at least the Lunatic Mall being completed at Level 11 with copious traps and patience (including the patience to obtain and craft level-optimal House-buffed gear). I'm not sure about getting past the other two.
Many thanks in advance for any input or knowledge this forum can share! I have really appreciated both this site and the wiki for reference during my most recent run especially.
*Level 16 points were the last points spent and my Save Files indicate Level 16 but the Character Sheet will show 17 due to gained experience.
**At least as far as I know, certainly hard to be certain since I don't know exactly how to define a bug, but nothing that clearly trivializes the game or is explicitly indicated as not intended via GUI. For example (almost certainly not a bug but hopefully this conveys the idea), if Rathound Regalia working in Deep Caverns is a "bug" that could only be confirmed by the developer I think.
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You know, I'm actually fiddling around with a minimal build on Dominating - whereas you're optimizing for level, I was curious what the fewest number of feats was that could get through Dominating. But if you get to take the best feats and optimize for level, I think you're right about 14 being doable. At the very least, a full 3-school psi build at 14 becomes ridiculous because Locus of Control is frankly outlandish. Doing it before 14 might be hard, since on Dominating you really need a predictable way to avoid stuns/incaps. Perhaps building your psi with 10 Will, 10 Constitution and taking Thick Skull would get you the minimum you'd need.
Regardless of your character focus, though, Grenadier is pretty broken and can be had for the low cost of 30 skill points and 6 Dex. The fields of flame you sow make handling most non-boss fights pretty simple. And of course stealth is wildly OP in the game - good stealth plus some traps and Grenadier and you could manage the Lunatic Mall at 12 with a build that had some good Dex to get your effective Traps up near 150 so the Lunatics wouldn't see them too soon. -Come to think of it, 10 would probably be manageable with patience. Only two or three of the Lunatics upstairs are immune to burning and you'd surely have a stack or two of magnesium/napalm incendiaries so maybe you'd fearbounce half the group while taking out the "bosses"-
Honestly don't know how to give advice for Tchort at such low levels, though, except for Psi. At 12 you could maybe do it with the classic abuse of Thermodynamic Destabilization, TK Proxy, Premeditation + Implode/TK Punch. You can't one-shot Tchort with the skill levels you'd have at 12 but you might could two-shot it.
A Psi build that optimizes for combat has everything you need by level 14. Paranoia, Gunslinger, Tranquility/Psychosis, Force User, Premeditation, Grenadier, Pyromaniac, *, Locus of Control. Slip in whatever advanced psi feat you want at 12 - Meditation (Tranquility can afford to skip its advanced skill so you could pick up QT instead if you wanted it and were invested in Traps) or Psionic Mania. If you don't care about initiative for whatever reason, drop Gunslinger in favor of whatever you do want - Fast Metabolism, Thick Skull, or Survival Instincts, perhaps, if you stacked starting Con; or Nimble if you need to max your effective Stealth. As an added bonus, a Psi build has enough Will that you can still make the IRIS Persuasion check as low as level 11 if you have a Noble Robe with you.
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I think it might be possible to beat DOMINATING at level 4 with Quick Tinkering and lots of traps. Tedious, but most likely possible. I already did a "pacifist" run on Hard in the past where I had no offensive skills (only traps) and only killed the few enemies required to progress the story.
Lack of sufficently high stealth could be a big issue, especially in the Tchort fight, but bought/looted black cloth gear, cloaking device and maxed AGI might be enough.
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I can see couple roadblocks on dominating for a low level char:
1) w/ the increase of NPC skills (dodge/evasion) you'll probably have a lot of difficulty w/ accuracy late game
2) The vastly increase debuff rate for Eye of Tchort + increase npc skill (detection) = extremely difficult, if not impossible, to avoid fighting Tchortlings in DC
3) Not doing enough damage to Tchort even if you solved mutagen puzzle
On the other hand you can beat the IRIS as long as you have quick tinkering, EMP/HE grenades and Grenadier so I don't see a problem w/ it.
As previously mentioned a tri-schooled Psi char is probably doable. An viable alternate low level char would probably be a throwing only char. You only need 69 chemistry for Frag/HE grenades MKIV which is possible at level 10 w/ 6 INT. This also bypass the problem w/ accuracy + not doing enough damage. Bear traps/throwing net reduce NPC evasion to zero; MKIV grenades + high grade mines pumping out damage. A very rough draft would be something like this: http://underrail.info.tm/build/?CgMHBgoDBwYAPAAAAAAAAAAAGQAAPAAAAAAAAAAACDljMBZfPg
Interesting concept OP, hope you'll report back here if you decided to do it.
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How do you deal with ten Azuridae at Newton's? My Psi build couldn't throw enough nukes at them.
Also what's the most powerful build right now? I'm using SMGs with 16 Dex now but there's probably something even better.
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That was fast, thanks for all of the responses! I think I've learned a lot already here, and I'm humbled by how much I was not aware of. I also have many more questions. I am definitely motivated to try to push further.
TheAverageGortsby: Interesting about Grenadier, I've never gotten it. I've haven't been using grenades all that much, though I know molotov fire is quite impactful, but it seems I've been missing out. The Psi build information is exactly the kind of thing I wanted to read. In all honesty I have zero clue of what you're describing (always did AR builds) but you are convincing me that perhaps I've been really missing out on some overpowered abilities/math. I will definitely want to explore this (if somebody else does not first).
Tygrende: Incredible if true, I had no idea. Are you really saying it should be possible to kill Tchort on Dominating with traps at Level 4? I have been using Bear Traps quite liberally but I had no idea such a thing was possible. I am not even sure where to begin? I didn't even know traps worked on Tchort? (I've only ever actually set Bear Traps and even then out of combat.)
At level 4, how do you not get one-shot/stunlocked/rooted by anything and everything? Surely you can't stealth to even approach Tchort so you fight your way there with traps? How are you not overwhelmed by all of the enemies?
And you have no problem anywhere else, such as Arke? You simply place as many traps all over the floor as possible with max stealth gear otherwise?
I don't directly doubt you, it's just that off the top of my head it makes me feel like I must really misunderstand some fundamental mechanics of the game if this is possible. I'm interested to learn more if you're willing to elaborate.
destroyor: Okay cool, I'm happy to hear confirmation on some points and I also feel as though I am more in your corner in terms of concerns (roadblocks). Other comments here make me think that I've been really overestimating the complexity of beating the game at low level so at least I'm not crazy in thinking some of these things, even if doable, are at least not *obvious*.
First it was traps and now throwing, two things that I just automatically assumed could not possibly be effective in the final fight are heavily recommended in this thread. Extremely interesting to me. I have never run a character with more than Throwing 0. I seem to have really misunderstood the effectiveness of these weapons?
In my mental simulation of a throwing/trap character vs. Tchort, I climb down the ladder, a tentacle pops up, and I instantly die. If I highroll, I kill one tentacle and then die to the next 3. Can you point out my misconception here? It really sounds like I'm grossly misunderstanding how survivability for these builds works. I am assuming Chemical Assault Unit armor...is there something that is better for this fight that I could have at level 4 or level 10?
sthalik: Buying the best possible early stealth gear plus eating an Agility steak and patience + saveloading will let (I believe) nearly any character build successfully sneak past the Newton Azuridae. I've never actually fought them on Dominating before. To be fair though, I've never actually tried 0 points in stealth + low agility builds. If you are a stealthy build and/or have Interloper you can realistically do it without even saveloading (though it wouldn't be trivially easy).
The most powerful build? Not sure, it depends on how you define power. It seems fair to say though that any build that can complete Dominating at levels 16 and below is surely a *very strong/effective* build. So probably every single build mentioned in this thread is extremely strong.
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How do you deal with ten Azuridae at Newton's? My Psi build couldn't throw enough nukes at them.
Psi makes the Azuridae trivial as long as you're level 3+. It would be very hard at level 2 so if you're playing Oddity it might behoove you to farm Cave Hoppers and the beetles just south of the Cove until you pick up level 3. Then you get Force Field. When you walk into the compound, immediately go shut the doors. Once you've dealt with the lone beetle in the other chamber, just manually start combat, open the doors (25 AP), and then raise Force Field(15 AP) in the doorway. If you picked up Tranquility at 2 then you can open doors (25), throw grenade(15) and still cast FF (10). When the field wears off, since you manually started combat, you'll go next. There will be beetles stacked up on the edge of your FF, so drop a grenade on them(15) and close the doors(25). Rinse and repeat until you've just got a stack of bug corpses to loot. I like to crank up The Prodigy's Firestarter and cackle maniacally while incinerating those stupid beetles, but YMMV.
Incidentally, the music video for Firestarter looks like it was shot in the tunnels of UnderRail
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Interesting about Grenadier, I've never gotten it. I've haven't been using grenades all that much, though I know molotov fire is quite impactful, but it seems I've been missing out.
So, here's the thing about Grenadier (and Psi for that matter) that I'm hesitant to mention for fear that it's unintended and will get nerfed. When you set someone on fire, they burn for three turns. If you set them on fire again while they're still burning, the timer refreshes, burn damage stacks, and Aphobia does not proc. With Pyromaniac and the Psi Flamethrower (Pyrokinetic Stream) you can keep especially dangerous things permanently feared if they're flammable. I handled Carnifex at 12 by keeping him aflame and panicked for ten or eleven turns on a 3 CON Psi character wearing Cave Hopper leather. If he had gotten so much as one attack (not even one turn) in, my dude would have been dead.
Grenadier sets the cooldown for incendiaries to 2 turns.
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Tygrende: Incredible if true, I had no idea. Are you really saying it should be possible to kill Tchort on Dominating with traps at Level 4? I have been using Bear Traps quite liberally but I had no idea such a thing was possible. I am not even sure where to begin? I didn't even know traps worked on Tchort? (I've only ever actually set Bear Traps and even then out of combat.)
Bear traps don't work on Tchort, but mines do. The way to kill him with traps only is to blow up the 4 tanks with TNT while in stealth first. Then you use Quick Tinkering to put an HE mine near the eye, run back to the saferoom, repeat until there's no more place left for mines to damage him, detonate the mines with a grenade, repeat until dead. You might need to put some bear traps to keep the tchortlings from interfering. If you do the mutagen puzzle (and the mind control tentacle is one of the killed) and find a decent energy shield you should be able to survive enough hits to heal up in the saferoom.
There are 4 main issues I see with this:
1. Stealth is essential. If high AGI+maxed stealth at level 4 and bonus stealth from gear/cloaking device are not enough to get past the detection threshold of tchortlings and the tentacles, I doubt this is possible. You would have to do the math before attempting this.
2. I did this with MK V mines, on a lvl 4 char you would be limited to bought MK III mines. That and the fact that Tchort has 1000 more HP means you would have to bring a lot more mines to DC, so carry weight might be an issue. High STR and/or Pack Rathound might be necessary.
3. That tremor damage Tchort deals to you through the entire fight, it gets bigger with time. Doing this with MK III mines will take a lot of time and a lvl 4 character won't have a lot of HP. It's going to be race.
4. Getting through Emporion might be even harder, considering the ungodly amounts of lunatics on DOMINATING there.
I'm not entirely sure if this is possible, but it might be. I could see it working.
At level 4, how do you not get one-shot/stunlocked/rooted by anything and everything? Surely you can't stealth to even approach Tchort so you fight your way there with traps? How are you not overwhelmed by all of the enemies?
Stealth, high initiative were mostly how I survived during my pacifist run. You could reach really high initiative with maxed AGI, 7 DEX and Gunslinger/Paranoia even at lvl 4. It all boils down to how much stealth you can squeeze out of black cloth gear and a cloaking device.
And you have no problem anywhere else, such as Arke? You simply place as many traps all over the floor as possible with max stealth gear otherwise?
As I said Emporion is the one place I worry about the most. Arke should be doable with tons of EMP traps/grenades, but it would also make bringing enough traps to DC a bigger issue.
I don't directly doubt you, it's just that off the top of my head it makes me feel like I must really misunderstand some fundamental mechanics of the game if this is possible. I'm interested to learn more if you're willing to elaborate.
Quick Tinkering is ridiculous and in my opinion the single most broken feat in the entire game, that's basically all there is to it and why I think it might be doable.
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How do you deal with ten Azuridae at Newton's? My Psi build couldn't throw enough nukes at them.
Also what's the most powerful build right now? I'm using SMGs with 16 Dex now but there's probably something even better.
Block off the area using doors and try to lure them in one at a time. Use throwing nets, bear traps, caltrops, and incendiary/HE grenades + your class' main damage skill to finish them off (some of them or all of the above depending on your build).
As for the most powerful build right now imho it's still stealth psychosis psi, see this thread: http://underrail.com/forums/index.php?topic=3264.0 . Assuming we are talking about dominating difficulty, couple changes are: energy pistol + chem pistol both rank up to the bottom of Good Tier; Unarmed builds dropped a tier due to infused leather nerf + dodge/evasion (more on this later); SMG are now weaker due to expertise nerf + npc (evasion) skill buff; the 30% NPC (weapons/dodge/evasion/etc) skill buff significantly reduce the effectiveness of dodge + evasion and I dare say dodge + evasion builds are no longer viable on dominating.
destroyor: Okay cool, I'm happy to hear confirmation on some points and I also feel as though I am more in your corner in terms of concerns (roadblocks). Other comments here make me think that I've been really overestimating the complexity of beating the game at low level so at least I'm not crazy in thinking some of these things, even if doable, are at least not *obvious*.
First it was traps and now throwing, two things that I just automatically assumed could not possibly be effective in the final fight are heavily recommended in this thread. Extremely interesting to me. I have never run a character with more than Throwing 0. I seem to have really misunderstood the effectiveness of these weapons?
In my mental simulation of a throwing/trap character vs. Tchort, I climb down the ladder, a tentacle pops up, and I instantly die. If I highroll, I kill one tentacle and then die to the next 3. Can you point out my misconception here? It really sounds like I'm grossly misunderstanding how survivability for these builds works. I am assuming Chemical Assault Unit armor...is there something that is better for this fight that I could have at level 4 or level 10?
I think I missed a roadblock - the mushroom forest heart chamber could be a problem due to those damn spore turrets. I don't know if a low level char (even if psi) could be make good enough to win this one.
The non-critical damage of grenades are based purely by its grade (no damage buff from throwing skills) so they are very effective if you rush crafting. Crawler caltrops are extremely useful and probably essential in stopping Tchortlings when facing Tchort. If you solved the mutagen puzzle and you are lucky the psi tentacle will be out of the game. If not, this is going to be a very difficult, if not impossible, battle. Shield + high CON + hp/regen gear + morphine + aegis will allow you to tank the damage from the rest of them. Quick tinker high grade HE mines + high grade HE nades every 2 turns to damage Tchort, crawler caltrops to stop Tchortlings.
Bear traps don't work on Tchort, but mines do. The way to kill him with traps only is to blow up the 4 tanks with TNT while in stealth first. Then you use Quick Tinkering to put an HE mine near the eye, run back to the saferoom, repeat until there's no more place left for mines to damage him, detonate the mines with a grenade, repeat until dead. You might need to put some bear traps to keep the tchortlings from interfering. If you do the mutagen puzzle (and the mind control tentacle is one of the killed) and find a decent energy shield you should be able to survive enough hits to heal up in the saferoom.
There are 4 main issues I see with this:
1. Stealth is essential. If high AGI+maxed stealth at level 4 and bonus stealth from gear/cloaking device are not enough to get past the detection threshold of tchortlings and the tentacles, I doubt this is possible. You would have to do the math before attempting this.
2. I did this with MK V mines, on a lvl 4 char you would be limited to bought MK III mines. That and the fact that Tchort has 1000 more HP means you would have to bring a lot more mines to DC, so carry weight might be an issue. High STR and/or Pack Rathound might be necessary.
3. That tremor damage Tchort deals to you through the entire fight, it gets bigger with time. Doing this with MK III mines will take a lot of time and a lvl 4 character won't have a lot of HP. It's going to be race.
4. Getting through Emporion might be even harder, considering the ungodly amounts of lunatics on DOMINATING there.
I'm not entirely sure if this is possible, but it might be. I could see it working.
I honestly don't think that'll work fighting Tchort. With the increase Tchortling spawn rate you'll eventually be boxed in somewhere before you blow up all 4 mutagen tanks. At level 4 on dominating I just don't see how you can get effective stealth high enough.
Emporiom could probably be cheese using toxic gas grenades.
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I honestly don't think that'll work fighting Tchort. With the increase Tchortling spawn rate you'll eventually be boxed in somewhere before you blow up all 4 mutagen tanks.
I did blow up all 4 tanks in stealth during my DOMINATING run. It's fairly easy to do it in one go, all tchortlings go to investigate the previous explosion giving you free access to the next tank while the tentacles stay next to the eye if you enter stealth immediately after you enter the area.
What I worry about is keeping them away once you start the HE mine shenanigans. A bear trap wall could work, but that would take even more time.
At level 4 on dominating I just don't see how you can get effective stealth high enough.
I really don't feel like doing the needed research and math right now, but you can get quite a lot of stealth from 3 pieces of black cloth gear and a cloaking device, possibly around 100. At level 4 with 11 AGI you could have 47 effectve stealth. I don't think tchortling's detection threshold is that high.
Emporiom could probably be cheese using toxic gas grenades.
Good idea, they will be craftable at level 4.
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Thank you guys again for all of the detailed feedback. It seems that there is a lot to investigate from my perspective. I definitely look forward to having a chance to do some new and interesting playthroughs.
I wanted to add a detailed update even though at this point it seems clear that my run may be far behind the curve of actual optimization. At least I think the details in this post can be used as a reference point for how actually "easy" Level 14 turned out to be. I promise I am not disregarding the other strategies, this post is largely for my own reference and to gauge progress, and maybe as a template for a more "competitive" run summary (especially if they get harder/less obvious to reproduce). I basically still just wanted to confirm my suspicion that my existing general approach, with slight and not even complete optimization, could fairly easily clear the game at my goal level...so in summary:
I have now completed Dominating at Level 14 using:
Str: 7
Dex: 3
Agi: 7
Con: 3
Per: 13
Will: 3
Int: 7
Feats:
Aimed Shot (I made sure not to use it later on because I wanted to confirm it really doesn't do much but help early game)
Echoing Soliloquy (No reason not to get this right?)
Expertise
Gun Nut
Opportunist
Suppressive Fire
Interloper
Full-Auto
Concentrated Fire
Commando (Didn't end up needing/using double bursts vs. Tchort...I didn't see a good way to line things up to take advantage of it anyway. Obviously if using AR in any future runs this will be irrelevant anyway sub-14...got its most "useful" use during Coretech Warehouse and Mushroom Forest in particular)
Skills:
Guns 80 (141)
Evasion 60 (75) (I don't think this did much, but I wasted even more points here in Lvl16 run and figured worst case these are wasted but shouldn't be a showstopper)
Stealth 80 (with all gear/buffs effective 235..always using Rathound Regalia because 10% movement speed +25 stealth with Interloper seems to me to be worth more like +100 true stealth)
Hacking 75 (94)
Lockpicking 75 (60)
Mechanics 80 (100)
Electronics 77 (96)
Persuasion 65 (67)
Mercantile 48 (73)
I crafted (with House):
9mm Smart Muzzled Hornet 18-59, +40% special attacks
Efficient High Frequency Shield Emitter 1011 Capacity, Conversion Rate 10.9, 12/37/115/168/213
+62 stealth cloaking device
+32% Special Attacks Smart Nightvision goggles
Noncrafted:
Standard +18 stealth balaclava, ChemicalAssaultUnit Armor for Tchort, RathoundRegalia everywhere else except early (before Core City main quests)
18%/23 stealth Ninja Tabis (I am sure I could have wasted fewer points elsewhere and crafted better...also probably could kill Coretech Runners for better, but not even necessary)..I wore these for Tchort fight but probably there are better choices...
Bullet Belt (of course)
W2C bullets for all the "major" fights in Deep Caverns obviously (Faceless +300 is enough for everything)
Notes of interest (at least to me):
Overall
- I barely took any more time in Deep Caverns or Tchort than my Level 16 run except for the Arke fight (which I now know what that looks like, I oneshot it by just running into the back corner and having the robots crowd each other, Commando was useful here)...still just needed 3 reloads on Tchort. ~2.5 hours Deep Caverns.
- I don't believe at any point in this run I needed to saveload more than approximately 10 times to force "super RNG". So in other words, this seems like very consistent "easy" run and so not as much of an achievement as I thought it might be.
Tchort Fight Consumables
- I don't know how to get focus stims without killing Coretech employees, so right before I take elevator I just "burn that bridge" and killed some for use during Arke and Tchort fights. I had a third for mushroom forest but didn't actually need it.
- I don't know how to get regenerative mixture except by killing Caerus Residential Vents guy "Guntar Vasilica" so I'm just doing that in lieu of a better way?
- I got lucky and found exactly one Aegis in Junkyard early on (below the final inner gate in that hut locker?). Is there a way to 100% reliably obtain this?
- I don't know how to get Iron Gut so I just went ahead without it (assuming at least Lvl14 I could scrape by without it and I did...), is there a way to 100% reliably obtain this?
- Since I'm friendly with faceless I have 100% reliable Super Health Hypos to pair with Morphine (although I guess you only could ever really use 1?)
- I saveloaded for +2 Constitution -2 Dex (or something useless) Junkyard Surprise (previously I used a +1Constitution Burger, which seems much less smart).
Tchort Fight Details
- I still didn't need to do Mutagen Puzzle (I didn't actually come that close to dieing at all with a logical Morphine timing, the only problem is Fatigue when my adrenaline wears off..Tchort has got to go right around that time or I lose)
- I stealth down the ladder, drug up in the little hut, then stealth up to the first tentacle (somehow I can do this even with my goggles and CAU armor...why is that even possible with so little stealth?)
- I can still kill tentacles in a single burst so I just kill the front two and start focusing Tchort...only takes 3 bursts if I decently roll.
- The adds (side spawn enemies) barely don't reach me in time and after Tchort dies they more or less clean themselves up.
Arke Basement
- This was a *noticeably* bigger pain with <120 effective hacking (which I had on Lvl16 run). I did a probably silly strategy where instead of killing everything with traps, I planted one TNT and lured almost ALL spiders out of big electricity room and into hallway where they had a civil war fighting scorpions and I was able to actually sneak by without fighting (except earlier, the first small room with two spiders for door key to open the big electricity room).
- I wonder if 13 perception is even worth it if doing a Lvl14 run, maybe +11 Per and then +2 higher intelligence makes for better crafting gear and hacking so it's actually even easier overall? Not sure on the math.
Mushroom Forest
- Is this actually doable without CAU Armor? These guys do serious damage to me even when wearing that. It's a good thing I kill those sentries in one burst. I used adrenaline to run past the second half of room before the heart room.
- Taking the "northern" path to the heart and hiding behind the rock or whatever allows me to alternate between killing the sentry and shooting the heart from relative safety
Tchort Institute
- Without the 120 hacking skill I was worried that I would need to spend a lot of time to get to the elevator (either slogging fighting or questing)...
- But I didn't realize until just yesterday that you can sneak into Eidein's office, kill his guards to trigger "tremors", go down elevator, go BACK UP elevator, and he is there?!
- So I just assassinate him and go back down and done with Institute, within minutes of joining the Institute.
- I do not know if this is a "bug" but it is confusing that some zones "autohostile" you even when stealthed (rest of the Institute) and others don't (elevator area) even when they both have an alert "Eye" to indicate "Controlled Zone"
Lunatic Mall
- I open the door at the entrance without combat, then kill the first two Lunatics in a single burst turn (while patrolling guy is not in line of sight). This allows ending combat and waiting out the "Noise Alert Movement" (is there a term for this?) of the rest of the floor. After this happens, I could directly stealth to floor 2 without anymore fighting. This is definitely 100% reproducible.
- On floor 2 I perform the same quick kill/wait out Noise Alert Movement for the 2 guys on the left-hand-side, then the patrolling guy, then the person inside the bottom left store
- I can destealth, adrenaline, stealth from the bottom left nook to the statue without any more fighting (it's fairly tight but with 235 stealth not too bad, could definitely do with some amount less)
- So in total I completed Lunatic Mall with 2 + 4 kills total.
Coretech Warehouse
- I just like Coretech, it probably makes no sense for me to have joined them
- For the Warehouse fight, I used 30 bear traps on nearly every entrance square and bursted every trio of enemies as soon as they entered within 2 turns. I was able to exit combat/save after every single triple. Commando definitely trivializes this fight.
So until somebody posts a more detailed tutorial or beats me to it, I guess I have to ponder: should I try jumping right into a Level 4 tinker run? Or should I play it "safe" and try Level 12 psionic? Will update again if/when I am able to find any success (or any failure :) ). Thank you all again for the inspiration and feedback and discussion.
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Or should I play it "safe" and try Level 12 psionic? Will update again if/when I am able to find any success (or any failure :) ). Thank you all again for the inspiration and feedback and discussion.
Thanks for the detailed postmortem of the level 14 run. It's an interesting read, and to be honest I'll never get an AR run in so it's nice to see how it plays out. I only suggest that if you do decide to try a psionic run, after you kill Tchort, pick up 14 and go back and hit some of the fights you skipped, just to see how insane Locus of Control really is. If it's your only experience with Psi, may as well see what Psi looks like when it fully develops, even if you don't get it fully built before you win.
EDIT: Just wanted to say, I was thinking about your challenge to yourself and, silly as this sounds, your optimization makes you such an edge case that your best bet for a Psi build might be a 3 Will build. It's essentially just Tygrende's "LOL QT I win" but with the added advantage of Thermodynamic Destabilization, which does gross damage if you set it up right - and from the sounds of it, you're willing to reload a few times to set things up right. You'd have to be level 8 - you can't learn ThermoD before then. But your best bet for lowest-level psi win may just be http://underrail.info.tm/build/?CAMHCgkDAwcAAAAAAAAyADIAIAwdMDEyAB4yAAAAUCcrHTAq . That assumes you're holding the Jackknife and wearing Trapper's Belt. It also assumes you have access to player housing, getting you that magic 69 Chem for mines/grenades, and 70 Bio to cook your own drugs up to and including Trance (also lets you cook Focus Stim so you don't have to murder CoreTech if you don't want, though for this build Focus Stim might not be much help. You're not doing much direct damage, you're doing shenanigans damage). Probably the biggest downside is that with 3 Perception, there's a lot of stuff that you're used to seeing (and doing/avoiding) that you won't be able to see, do, or avoid.
With 71 effective Tailoring, you can actually make Infused Cape Hopper leather armor (you'll need Super Steel of 88 or lower quality to make the thread) and possibly black cloth which will give you more movement speed, movement points, and possibly more stealth than the Rathound Regalia, and +Agi instead of +Str which will more than make up for the 5% armor penalty it will impose. You can also obviously make your own tabis that way too, and even a pair of Infused Pig leather boots to help carry all those mines down into DC.
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There are 4 main issues I see with this:
2. I did this with MK V mines, on a lvl 4 char you would be limited to bought MK III mines. That and the fact that Tchort has 1000 more HP means you would have to bring a lot more mines to DC, so carry weight might be an issue. High STR and/or Pack Rathound might be necessary.
I just realized this isn't as much of an issue as I thought since the Tchortist trader at Cytosine sells MK III HE mines. If it turns out you don't have enough, you can always reload and get more. He doesn't seel EMP mines as far as I know though.
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PART 1 of 2
Hey guys, I'm back with an update. This time I have quite a lot to say so hopefully I won't go over a post character limit or something like that (20,000 characters, I did go over...).
After my previous success with a Level 14 Assault Rifle character, I decided to try psionics and/or traps based on all of the feedback, and that's the character I started to create. However, after spending a significant amount of time re-reading your feedback posts, looking at your suggested builds, and sitting at the character creation screeen, I realized I still wanted to try one more AR run. My reasoning was as follows: I don't have any deep knowledge regarding psionics or trap use but I know a lot about AR and if Level 14 AR isn't actually too tough (which it isn't) then I might end up wasting time heavily optimizing for something that AR can still beat. So I wanted to find the limit of AR thinking that that would give me much faster feedback as to where I should start targeting optimization for other archetypes. An additional reason: I really like ARs, Dakka Dakka / Lead Storm for life :P!
Having decided to try another AR run, and given that I knew the "minimum" AR Level which had to be well under 14 (since 14 wasn't too bad), I came to what I think is an obvious conclusion/initial guess: target Level 10.
Level 10 seems like a good balance because in comparison to (a fully optimized) Level 14 removes a healthy fraction of crucial gun skill, excludes any sort of extreme top-level crafting possibilities, drops a non-negligible number of maximum Health points, and blocks skill-check-based workarounds for virtually all end-game content/dangers (except stealthing).
At the same time, Level 10 still gives access to Concentrated Fire and that Feat is absolutely core to all Assault Rifle builds and provides crucial damage potential. Level 9 would be a massive drop in power due to the strict loss of this Feat coupled with even lower Gun skill at a point where every single Gun skill point matters (and weaker everything else as well).
I have now completed Dominating at Level 10 using:
Str: 7
Dex: 3
Agi: 7
Con: 3
Per: 9
Will: 3
Int: 10
Feats:
Echoing Soliloquy (No reason not to get this right?)
Gun Nut
Opportunist
Recklessness
Suppressive Fire
Interloper
Full-Auto
Concentrated Fire
Skills:
Guns 60 (85)
Stealth 60 (149 with just gear and skills, with almost all gear/buffs effective 215...I had been using Adrenaline already but now really begin to appreciate it and ALSO Jumping Bean is really a big deal here, more discussion below..always using Rathound Regalia because 10% movement speed +25 stealth with Interloper seems to me to be worth more like +100 true stealth)
Traps 60 (I used 6 EMP traps during Arke Fight and a couple crawler poison traps for Tchort Fight, but never got too fancy here, used plain old bear traps virtually everywhere else)
Mechanics 60 (90)
Electronics 60 (90)
Chemistry 60 (90)
Biology 60 (90)
Tailoring 60 (90)
I crafted (with House):
- 9mm Smart Muzzled Hornet 17-56, +46% special attacks (and had a second one with +41% for swapping out if durability got low during a single fight...but turns out never needed the backup gun)
- Efficient High Frequency Shield Emitter 1132 Capacity, Conversion Rate 10.7, 7/23/96/141/180
- +61 stealth cloaking device, 97 energy, turn on costs 27, consume 9.32 every 5 seconds
- +31% Special Attacks Smart Night Vision goggles (low 42 energy capacity, turning on costs 9, consumes 3 energy every 5 seconds)
Noncrafted:
- Rathound Regalia (I never ended up crafting Super Steel String but maybe I could have crafted infused SuperSteel XYZ that is better? probably not possible to craft better at Character levels below 10 though, I'm guessing)
- Chemical Assault Unit Armor (I just kill the CAU members outside of the Free Drones base when it's "Go Time" and I don't care about burning Protectorate bridge)
- Standard +17 stealth balaclava (didn't even bother crafting a better one because I didn't want to waste rare high quality cloth on +1 or +2 stealth), ChemicalAssaultUnit Armor for Tchort and MushroomForest, RathoundRegalia for early Tchort fight and almost everywhere else except early (before Core City main quests)
- +23% movement speed/32 stealth Ninja Tabis (I *know* I could have crafted better here because I had some almost perfect-skilled cloth but I killed Carnifex and he was wearing these and I wanted to see if I could cheap out on the cloth in case I needed it for later and never bothered to upgrade later since stealthing was a minimal concern).
I wore these Ninja Tabis for the entire Tchort fight again because I'm not actually sure what a better choice would be...maybe infused constitution boots but didn't end up needing to go that deep into crafting
- Bullet Belt (of course)
- W2C bullets for all the "major" fights in Deep Caverns obviously (Faceless +300 is mostly enough, I also brought 300 W2C rounds with me from buying nonstop through the run, I finished Deep Caverns with 250 rounds left)
Final experience bar (before boarding Train to North Underrail): 203427 / 10000
Notes of interest:
Overall
- I needed to save and load a lot more, but not as much as one might think. I would say that the maximum saveloading was for Carnifex (totally optional) and Tchort Fight. Versus Carnifex with Agility Steak active I was able to get initiative/first turn once every ~20 loads. The second time I flashbanged him and that's that (see below). I personally spent dozens of saveloads on the Tchort Fight but excluding experimentation/learning the "winning strategy" only took ~4 save snapshots and ~30 loads (totaled from ladder to end combat with tchort dead). The fight description/summary this time was very convoluted (see below).
- I took significantly more time in Deep Caverns and on Tchort compared to my Level 14 and Level 16 runs. The gatekeepers (Mushroom Forest, Arke Fight, Tchort Fight) all took ~3 times as long at least this time around. To be fair about this comparison though, my Level 16 run was practically a speedrun.
- I don't believe at any point in this run I needed to saveload more than approximately *20 times* to force "super RNG" (Carnifex initiative was definitely the single most-abused saveload, moreso than any Tchort Fight point). I did end up needing to saveload substantially more, but I would say it is more a question of requiring a few extra saves and load all over the place rather than any single place requiring an absurd number of saves/loads (which is a good thing for reproducibility/consistency).
- The Tchort Fight is absolutely the gatekeeper of the run and it is getting very dangerous/hard even at Level 10. I don't think I do my next run "blind", which is what I have been doing up until now and including this current run. By not playing "blind" I mean I will probably want to use Cheat Engine and/or character editing and/or at least Export/Import to pre-fabricate a character to test the Tchort Fight before spending ~50 hours to get to that point and possibly fail).
- Based on this run, and in particular the Tchort Fight experience, I no longer believe/accept that a Level 4 run is possible, though of course I will always remain open to video or detailed writeup evidence. More discussion below.
- Stealth is insane, but stealth with stealth +movement tabis, rathound regalia, plentiful Adrenaline, and also plentiful Jumping Bean is so good that even at Lvl 10 I'm stunned at effectiveness (easier stealthing than my Level 16 run).
- I really put Molatovs, Flashbangs (extremely good for getting burst hits to land...as well as stunning enemies so you don't die), and Toxic Gas Grenades to work
- In addition to toxic gas grenades, this run also really utilized a ton of medical crafting and some fishing so I felt like I was almost playing an expansion pack already (so much new stuff that I never used before).
- I didn't even craft 100% optimal gear (didn't have gear that was crafted using the exact skill requirement that I reached at House with Workbench buffs) and I think that in retrospect at least one point of Intelligence would have been better placed into Perception.
The relative gain of one more intelligence point is actually not that much in terms of crafting item/weapon quality, and for weapons I think ~5 skill requirement can be on the order of +1 damage on a 17-56 damage weapon which is basically nothing compared to the bonus of +5 Guns at such low gun skill levels.
- If I did this same run again and anticipated that I would 100% need to make SuperSteel I would probably reallocate SOME points from Chemistry+Biology+Traps to Mercantile because scrounging for money is a pain.
- If I did this same run again and knew that I would 100% not be making SuperSteel, I would spend way more freely and not waste a ton of time walking sometimes instead of taking train (though I didn't do that TOO much, it was more that I was constantly loading after findout out a shop was a bust).
Tchort Fight Consumables
- Focus Stims - This run I learned how to craft them and came prepared with a stack of 6. Didn't need to do the old killing Coretech employees routine.
- Regenerative Mixture - I still don't know how to get regenerative mixture except by killing Caerus Residential Vents guy "Gunter Vasilica" so I still did that. IMPORTANT NOTE: I almost forgot to bring +1 Perception Goggles for the 10 Perception check in the vent, I got lucky and found some on one of the shelves somewhere in Deep Caverns and avoided a very embarassing load to hours earlier.
- Aegis - This run I learned how to craft them and came prepared with a stack of 6. Fun fact, I had never fished anything ever before in my ~250 hours of play until this run for medicine crafting.
- Iron Gut - This run I learned how to craft them and came prepared with a stack of 6.
- Jumping Bean - I crafted 9 of these but didn't need all of them. These things are amazing!
- Super Health Hypos - Since I'm friendly with Faceless I have 100% reliable Super Health Hypos to pair with Morphine (although I guess you only could ever really use 1?)
- I saveloaded for +2 Constitution -2 Dex (or something useless) Junkyard Surprise (this is definitely worth doing instead of just accepting a +1 constitution burger).
- Adrenaline Shot - I didn't end up using these vs. Tchort because the downside is too dangerous/slow (every second counts because of the monotonically increasing Tchort shock damage) and by the time I knew I could win the fight, I was more afraid of the adds killing me without being able to burst than of not having the damage for the Eye.
- Bull Head - I didn't use these or need them, but I crafted a couple anyway just in case.
Tchort Fight Strategy Summary
- Descend ladder in full stealth except for Gas Mask swapout when needed.
- Place two TNT charges on *the left/West side* Mutagen Tanks and blow them.
- Place two TNT charges on the *right/East side* Mutagen Tanks and blow them.
- At this point, *wait for parade* then dodge back to the left side. I say "wait for parade" because there were 12 (TWELVE !!! I screenshotted and counted) Tchortling/Spitters/Devourers that all grouped up on the right side platform in a nice square ball to investigate the TNT and stayed densely packed on the order of seconds. I saved/snapshotted upon seeing this, I hope it's consistent that they don't split apart and spread out most of the time as this save is core to my "successful fight" line.
- While walking back the left side, near the center-right choke, I placed two crawler poison traps (not a perfect lockout) for use later (and so tentacles not respawning while trap-laying).
- Mutagen Puzzle was Completed, so now Three tentacles to fight: I got cryo, mind control, and acid. (My Exitus 1 "seed" was: MU L8 DX R1 ET MH AL PZ UP WW KG XT E6 B4). I've been stealthed 100% of the time until now so Tentacles don't actually have any involvement and the way I kill them I don't think type matters at all.
- The left-side (West side) shack is crucial (maybe central shack can work but not sure) because you can go back there, exit combat and get a save snapshot, switch to full combat and then PICK OFF TENTACLES WHILE DODGING BEHIND SHACK DOOR after each burst. The Tentacles appear in a perfect formation such that none of them can hit you inside shack but all can easily be hit from right outside shack door. The Tchort-adds on the other side of the map DO NOT aggro or come over (I think they are too far away for sound).
- I killed two tentacles this way (exited combat) then walked back toward center and third tentacle popped up and since I was able to point-blank it I killed it in one go (plenty of focus stims for all these separate shots). Again exit combat and get a save/snapshot in.
NOTE: I did lose *some* time up until now but I am clicking/hotkeying fairly efficiently and yet Tchort is hitting me (without Aegis or Morphine) at this point (all three tentacles just killed) for 40-75 electricity damage (he has quite a damage range) NON-critically!! That's A LOT of damage considering I have 150 HP total *with* my CON buff food.
I believe I dipped into the middle shack on my way from right to left after the final TNT and SUPERStimmed to stay alive and opted to bandage-wait-out the stim cool down at that shack before starting combat at the left shack so I probably advanced the counter 2-3 extra shocks since I don't think the waiting was necessary...but to be clear here the damage gets very high much faster than I think one would expect.
- Key moment: a spitter (and some other Tchortling enemies) are random-walking around toward middle right (where they were all investigating that final TNT) as I am coming back from killing the tentacles on the left. I initiate combat and run to the northern choke and am able to get the spitter to lock off that choke with Tentacle spawns (especially likely if spitter got caught in trap).
- With tentacle spawns on the ground blocking access to all other Tchort-adds and even keeping them at an out-of-range distance, I have free reign to chug irongut/aegis/focus stim/remaining regen mixture, go to melee range on Eye and unload bursts nonstop. Although melee range+nightvision is now required, Tchort is still dead in 3 turns (thanks concentrated fire!) and nothing is hitting me the whole time except a couple spitter tentacles.
- There are a LOT of mini-Tchort adds but I chuck a molatov and a toxic gas grenade on the bridge choke and hide at max distance next to the Eye corpse and basically they still mostly take care of themselves with the madness debuff.
Tchort Fight Notes
- I did Mutagen Puzzle because tentacles are very hard to kill now and my HP is just too low (and my current fight approach requires tentacles completely out of the fight for a while). I can no longer reliably one-burst tentacles though it is still possible to do. However, not sure if it's possible for ALL tentacles. Some tentacles I believe it is not possible or virtually not possible unless point blank AND very lucky. The Cryo Tentacle can only take 1/3 life damage from one of my bursts depending on my luck.
- The Cryo Tentacle basically one-shots me 80% of the time, same with the Mind Control tentacle, so I *had* to use a strategy that involves never taking on more than 1 at a time (in fact, in this case, none of the tentacles ever get a shot on me). Before (Level 14+ with evasion) I was able to potentially take a shot from one tentacle while killing the other but that's off the table now.
- I can't even 100% kill the adds in a single burst because of misses, but if they are approaching me on a choke/bridge they'll still never get a hit off as I certainly two-burst them superconsistently at any medium/short range.
- I am chugging my consumables before every mini-fight segment and refreshed everything after the Eye died just in case the Tchort-adds got ugly, I'm glad I made a lot.
Arke IRIS Fight
- I placed 6 EMP mines outside surrounding the bottom left (south west) corner console room and thats where I made my stand. When the south entrance bots initially spawn they will be in a group and you get a good hit/free bursts there.
- I also places ~5 bear traps around the console room for good measure.
- W2C bullets mandatory for the Industrial Bots.
- This was the closest my gun came to breaking (actually just barely got into yellow as I killed last loose bots) and I can imagine that if I were slightly less lucky or lower level that a backup gun would be necessary
- The four center turrets are easy to clean up at the end but I was also able to exit combat and get a save in before killing them
- I did NOT end up needing/using any consumables such as Focus Stim or Aegis.
Arke Basement
- I still very reliably one-burst Greater Coil Spiders.
- Now that I was mentally prepared for this to be a pain, it wasn't so bad. I refined my silly strategy where instead of killing everything with traps, I planted one TNT and lured almost ALL spiders out of big electricity room and into hallway. I let them have a civil war fighting scorpions FIRST (just waiting, without TNT) then used TNT further down the hall. I was able to actually sneak by without fighting (again except for earlier, the first small room with two spiders for door key to open the big electricity room).
- Similar to Caerus Residential, there are two key strategies for Electro Spider killing:
Need to kill one spider and you are near door? Burst spider then close door.
Need to kill two spiders (Wasi Abdul keycard, Arke basement key)? Burst one spider, adrenaline, flashbang, burst second spider.
Need to kill three spiders? You're doing something wrong, there is never a time this is needed. However, perfect adrenal/flashbang probably works for up to 3.
- You can always easily just go right to the ladder in the last room of Arke Basement, saveload if the scorpions bump you. You can obviously trap if you really need to but it's not even necessary.
Mushroom Forest
- Is this actually doable without CAU Armor? I'm even more convinced it's not. These guys do *serious* damage to me even when wearing CAU armor unless I ALSO have Iron Gut active. Even then they can hurt me.
- At lower levels I may need to actually grab the Biohazard Boots and come back here (I have not been wearing those) because the damage is insane (when factoring in that they reduce your HP pool by 10-20%).
- Jumping bean + adrenaline actually makes running past the second half of room before the heart room quite easy (doable in one try).
- Taking the "northern" path to the heart and hiding behind the rock or whatever allows me to alternate between killing the sentry and shooting the heart from relative safety HOWEVER
- I now needed to first aggro and "pull" the northern chompers/spitters and kite back left while killing them from some amount of cover as they are too dangerous to fight in place. I can't reliably one-burst them.
- I am glad I crafted a bunch of Iron Gut as I am not sure Mushroom Forest is doable at Level 10 (or below) without it. I also needed to exit combat/heal up before going in for the sentry/heart alternating kill.
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PART 2 of 2
Tchort Institute
- As stated historically, without the 120 hacking skill I was worried that I would need to spend a lot of time to get to the elevator (either slogging fighting or questing)...
- But the strategy I've found (was this intended?) is extremely helpful here, yet again. Again I sneak into Eidein's office, kill his guards to trigger "tremors", go down elevator, go BACK UP elevator, and he is there.
- A very nice side effect for this run in particular is that I am able to place multiple layers of Bear Traps around where Eidein WILL be but before he's actually there, so there's zero chance for problems in that fight (I basically can't hit Tchortists unless they are immobilized and even then it's much more likely that I'll need multiple bursts to kill them).
- I just assassinate Eidein and go back down and done with Institute (within minutes of joining the Institute if I wanted to, this time around I had to do a lot of shopping and shop refreshes).
- I do not know if this is a "bug" but it is confusing that some zones "autohostile" you even when stealthed (rest of the Institute) and others don't (elevator area) even when they both have an alert "Eye" to indicate "Controlled Zone"
- This time I carried 227 Weight Units of stuff (Lightly Encumbered) into Deep Caverns with me, although I didn't end up needing most of the stuff causing excess weight. I did prove to myself that there's no issue getting to the elevator and past the faceless with just a slight movement point debuff.
Lunatic Mall (Jumping Bean Mall)
- Previously: I opened the door at the entrance without combat, then kill the first two Lunatics in a single burst turn (while patrolling guy is not in line of sight). This allows ending combat and waiting out the "Noise Alert Movement" (is there a term for this?) of the rest of the floor. After this happens, I could directly stealth to floor 2 without anymore fighting. This is definitely 100% reproducible.
- This Time: I confirmed that the above is still possible, but I need a flashbang to immobilize them in order to semi-reliably kill both with a single burst.
- This Time: I *also* confirmed that I can *easily* stealth past these two without even killing them if I use adrenal/cloaker and tight clicking (but I prefer killing just because I don't like those two in particular :p )
- Previously:
On floor 2 I perform the same quick kill/wait out Noise Alert Movement for the 2 guys on the left-hand-side, then the patrolling guy, then the person inside the bottom left store
I can destealth, adrenaline, stealth from the bottom left nook to the statue without any more fighting (it's fairly tight but with 235 stealth not too bad, could definitely do with some amount less)
So in total I completed Lunatic Mall with 2 + 4 kills total.
- This Time:
On floor 2 I still perform the quick kill/wait out routine for the 2 guys on the left and the patroller, but I never really needed to bother with the corner Lunatic inside the shop, you can just wait on the movement cycle for that Lunatic to be all the way in the bottom corner.
This time I used Adrenaline + Jumping Bean + my stealth gear and I was like a ROCKET. Those buffs clearly all stack and it's insane. Jumping Bean + Adrenaline + 23% boots + Rathound Regalia + Interloper made it so that I *easily* (2/3 full yellow eye) could dash in and grab the statue even though I'm only Level 10!
That's kindof insane. Jumping Bean must add another ~50 or even 75 effective stealth (whenever speed is relevant which is virtually always). Completed Lunatic Mall with 2+3 kills (but verified I could have done just the 3 kills).
First Protectorate Epione Lab Quest to kill Upper Underrail Free Drone Base with Shredder
- Toxic Gas Grenades + Molatovs + Traps let me attack from the northern hatch and CRUSH them.
- All previous playthroughs I was lockpicking the front door and luring them out. This playthrough I was afraid that without all that comfortable space to kite backward through it would be extremely hard but wowee Toxic Gas+Molatov is devastating.
- Coupled with traps and hiding in the door nook, I picked them off very efficiently and only had to saveload ~4 or 5 times (not really that many considering I'm level 10 and how many things can go wrong there).
JKK Questline
-This time I did JKK Quest Line which is WAY easier with stealth, although the last quest with the Spiders was annoying.
-For the last JKK quest, I used molatov + running to burn that stupid patrolling spider in the utility room down over the course of three throw molatov/run/door close cycles.
-For the last JKK quest, I lured the Industrial Bot into the neighboring room from the pump controller and then closed the doors on him because screw him.
Junkyard
- As always, I'm now hitting and running, hitting and running, for those dumb photon/laser turrets. Not sure how to deal with them otherwise. Very grindy/slow (though the plasma pistol from Scrapper Quest line helps).
- I literally didn't even realize that opening Vents with omnitool required lockpicking until this run. Luckily this build can just use Rathound Barbeque or Regalia (8 Str total) and Crowbar for Vents everywhere, including Arke. I didn't plan this and was relieved to confirm it...
OPTIONAL STUFF I DID
The Beast
- I killed The Beast and unlocked SuperSteel but wasn't sure what to do and didn't want to spend time investigating unless I was sure it was needed.
- Whoever mentioned traps + toxic gas grenades (TheAverageGortsby ?) you are SPOT ON. Man the bladelings do NOT like toxic gas grenades, especially chaining them and stacking them to make a giant thick cloud on their spawn. Those things are amazing for making bullets do full damage even vs. that armor.
- I also noted that alternately leaving the forge map on the south side transition and then popping in through the caves gives me the ability to easily clean up stragglers and possibly is an alternative kiting strategy in the general case
- I also found that if I stealthed and let all bladelings spawn and stayed out of combat the game would consistently crash towards the last wave...so that's interesting.
Carnifex
- He literally cannot be allowed to have a turn UNTIL you have secured yourself in a corner 2 layers of traps deep. There is no margin: if he goes first you WILL die (well maybe I survived at 10HP once in ~50 reloads).
- I had to saveload ~20 times for each turn where I had higher initiative (and this is WITH Agi steak).
- Flashbang->stun->stealth->exit combat is still the gold standard 100% Win strategy here (all previous Arena fights are essentially just strictly easier instances of applying this same strategy).
- You have to be completely sealed in with traps, he sees them all instantly and will otherwise walk around them.
- I used Molatov to make him switch sides after getting trapped on one side so he physically walked over 3 bear traps.
- I didn't even need to use W2C ammo, but unless he was trapped I could easily fire 9 rounds and hit nothing but air.
- I think he took a total of 6 or 7 full 9 round bursts which is pretty insane.
- Rathound Regalia is nice to resist the Yell debuff
Access to Oculus
- I had never done this before in a game so partly for fun, partly for Charons in case I needed to melt them down for SuperSteel
- The Foundry Prison quest is actually insanely frustrating without any skills. I had to do it in a VERY particular way.
- When you're ready to talk to Todor Tallywhacker or whatever, and ONLY then because you only get ONE SHOT and have to do this all at once, you have to:
- enter the prison
- stealth to the Control Room with the Supervisor (NEVER let a camera turn red at any point)
- use traps to kill Supervisor (he will patrol into them)
- grab his key
- use his key to get to the vent room
- open vent with crowbar
- go talk to the guy in his cell
- You can never come back (they go to lockdown) so this should be the last step before you go to Chief of Police and complete quest the "good way" by getting Todor released.
LOOKING FORWARD
This run result has convinced me that Level 9 is very likely possible using the same (but optimized Percept/Intelligence with perfect crafts and no wasted points) approach as this run, but it would be miserable and require LOTS of RNG to make up for the lack of damage. I'm not 100% certain even, but I think it's 51%+ probable that it can be done.
This run result has also convinced me that Levels 5 and below are borderline impossible. The only 5 or below suggestion I am currently aware of would involve Level 4 being reserved for Quick Tinkering. This would be mean that Interloper cannot be selected and that even with 11 Constitution +2 from Food a character could have at MOST 180 HP.
Perhaps +1 from footwear is possible while still having enough stealth as well, but the point is that even at 190 HP Tchort will very quickly be dealing 1/3 and 1/2 health pool damage (damage that DEMANDS immediate healing). "Slow" damage sources such as mines I don't believe can possibly be set fast enough to kill Tentacles and then Tchort and if Tentacles are alive there is NO CHANCE that a Lvl5 character will
be able to survive a gauntlet of even a single tentacle plus Tchort floor shocks (unless it is exactly a tentacle that is 100% absorbed by shield...but that still means 2 tentacles had to be killed).
I simply don't believe that slow damage can work against Tchort given the other threats present and the time it would take to deal with them. Want to lay a bunch of traps to lock away the adds? Even placing the traps to lock off the chokes takes too much time, you will have to do it in shifts because of the damage adding up but since the damage increases over time you will never be able to lay more than a small number which they can get past in a single digit number of turns...
And if you don't lock away the adds? You will never have enough stealth to walk past them, ESPECIALLY without interloper, so you would either have to depend on RNG that they NEVER leave the last Tank TNT area or you would have to kill them all off (again how? you don't have time).
In fact, based on my experience, I doubt a Level 6 mine-based approach makes sense (I could be wrong of course, but Quick Tinker would have to be SUPER Quick, much faster than I am imagining, to outpace the tremor damage).
However, there might be a non-mine or mine-hybrid approach that could work that hasn't even been discussed...I haven't put much thought into what is possible at Level 6 so I don't feel as comfortable fully ruling it out...but that's my current thinking, that Level 6-8 are the bare minimum levels and the true bare minimum might just be Level 8 or Level 9 with ARs and perfect RNG, perfect everything (maybe even perfect Tentacles though again I'm not sure if there is a strategy where type of the remaining 3 would matter).
At present, with the data I have obtained from my playthrough I am only honestly comfortable suggesting Level 9 as likely possible. I really truly don't even know if Level 8 can work as the lower HP and the lower accuracy as well as the lower quality gear will start to all add up. As mentioned, I definitely would need to see some contravening evidence or examples to address the parallel threats of Tchortling/Spitters/Devourers Adds, Tchort Tentacles, and Tchort tremors at this point for any claim below Level 9 AR (which I think the math supports, but just requires insane ~99% crit RNG + perfect craft gear).
I suppose I should look into that Level 8 Thermodynamic Destabilization suggestion...because if that's actually viable at Level 8 I can see it blowing ARs out of the water.
Anyway, thanks again for reading and suggestions! I may need to come back and edit this response a bit as it has gotten quite long and I'm not sure if the double-post is mod-acceptable...
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Regarding foundry prison quest. You can gain access to prisoner easily without any skill checks after finishing beast quest line. Just go to warden, ask for meeting with Todor, choose line that is something like "hey, i'm a hero that killed beast, can't i just see my cousin?" and you get to meet him without delay.
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- I killed The Beast and unlocked SuperSteel but wasn't sure what to do and didn't want to spend time investigating unless I was sure it was needed.
In fact, based on my experience, I doubt a Level 6 mine-based approach makes sense (I could be wrong of course, but Quick Tinker would have to be SUPER Quick, much faster than I am imagining, to outpace the tremor damage).
I suppose I should look into that Level 8 Thermodynamic Destabilization suggestion...because if that's actually viable at Level 8 I can see it blowing ARs out of the water.
Anyway, thanks again for reading and suggestions!
You are borderline certifiable but I 'm enjoying reading your writeups so thanks for sharing - it would be a shame if you'd done this quietly and we hadn't had the chance to hear about this craziness.
Super Steel thread making infused cave hopper leather armor and infused pig leather boots are probably worth contemplation for your play style. Possibly even infused siphoner leather tabis if slows are ever a problem for you but you don't sound like they are. Also, I would *heartily* encourage you to experiment with a maximum-quality (for your skill level) Regenerative Vest for when you're out of LOS in the Tchort fight. On Dominating, stim healing is gimped badly enough that Regen Vest is basically god-tier. It ticks every five seconds as long as it has power (and you're under 70% of max health, obviously), and batteries aren't really all that heavy. If you don't plate it, the armor penalty isn't crippling so you may even be able to use it while you're laying traps.
EDIT: If you're pretty comfortable with your health pool from that AR run, my previous ThermoD build suggestion might be better with 6 CON and 10 INT, which both frees up ~20 skill points and also ensures that crafted Infused Cave Hopper leather armor can be superior to Rathound Regalia for stealthing.
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You can gain access to prisoner easily without any skill checks after finishing beast quest line.
Ah, good to know. I think opening up the Oculus shop has no downside, so that is probably something to do 100% of the time (and lots of easy Charons as well). Now that I *do* have a formula for doing the Oculus Foundry Quests before Beast, I may or may not end up using this alternative in the future, but I definitely appreciate having another option. Although your suggestion may be mandatory if I have no STR and cannot open vents (though that also raises other quest-related questions).
Super Steel thread making infused cave hopper leather armor and infused pig leather boots are probably worth contemplation for your play style.
Interesting, yeah, that sounds like it's worth investigating. I couldn't seem to find on the Wiki a detailed outline of the exact quality+buffs numbers so I suppose this has to be done empirically through the game engine...I think it shouldn't be too bad though because now I've simplified all necessary experiments to lower quality (more easily obtained) possibilities that must be possible at Level 9 and below.
On Dominating, stim healing is gimped badly enough that Regen Vest is basically god-tier.
Interesting, I did consider this item but I didn't do any tests and I'm again not really sure what the math looks like for an optimal Level 9 skill level craft output. How long can such a vest heal for? I think it would need to be chugging along for a LONG time (or can you toggle it on and off repeatedly with minimal loss?) to justify using...interesting for sure. How often will you need to recharge vs. how much larger will the tremors get while recharging? The exact math matters a lot, because when you are taking 40-75 damage per tremor, even something twice as powerful as stim healing will only buy you marginal time due to the increases every tick and the fact that your max HP is a fixed number. I did do a waiting test and verified that at least after ~20 minutes the damage never stops increasing and I got as high as ~100 per tremor which, again, is basically a guaranteed death if anything else is remotely in a position to damage you even with morphine and aegis active (and morphine has a long cooldown). Tremors can also critically hit so even at the 75-80 damage level I can easily get one shot, and I'm not sure if saveloading will fully allow dodging any crits.
EDIT: If you're pretty comfortable with your health pool from that AR run, my previous ThermoD build suggestion might be better with 6 CON and 10 INT
Hard to say because at Level 9 my overall health pool potential would be even lower and I am not sure I was exactly "comfortable" at Level 10. Obviously 6CON + 2 from Junkyard Surprise will actually mean substantially more health but HP is intimately connected with damage for purposes of calculating success.
I would be more comfortable with 100HP (instead of my Lvl 10 150HP) if I was able to walk into the fight with 200 gun skill and 12 or 14 Feats. What I was saying is that I am currently hugely skeptical of (though I am always open to evidence) of a build that can have enough damage at Level 8 or below to kill Tchort that could also survive long enough to deal that damage, so the question is whether ThermoD can accomplish this (admittedly I still know NOTHING about this skill other than reading the Wiki entry). Given that I think ~180-190 HP is the maximum reasonable amount of HP that is possible, I do the following simple mental projection:
Level 10 AR run --> 150 HP --> able to 3 shot Tchort and 1-2 shot Tentacles and got up to ~40 minimum damage tremors, one shot by most tentacle attacks and can never survive being hit by anything (for example, Devourer claws) in combination with tremors
Level 9 and below run --> 190HP --> ~25% more HP so I can afford to 4 shot tchort and maybe 3-4 shot tentacles but still can never be hit by anything in combination with tremors
As you can see, what I am trying to emphasize with this back-of-the-envelope math is that my Level10 AR run did not have a huge amount of time left on the clock even though I'm dealing out potentially 1500 damage a turn with 9 critical concentrated fire rounds, so it's simply not enough to prove that I can stay alive longer at lower levels...I have to be able to stay alive a LOT longer while also dealing out enough damage each interval where I'm not healing to actually kill Tchort.
Tchort has True Sight, which means I will be forced into combat and visible to tchort-adds and tentacles near the eye. In my Level10 run just now, I didn't need to come and go on the Eye platform in shifts. If I did, I would have been destroyed by the wave of adds slowly spreading out. Again, locking them away with traps makes sense, but if I need to lay 20 mines to kill Tchort and each mine placement/destruction cycle takes 4 or so turns, I would have to have placed an absurd number of traps to choke off the adds while avoiding any aggro and staying healed up the whole time.
It may be possible (though I REALLY doubt lvl 5 and below) but I think as a first-order test I need to know how much damage mines can do (for that build) and how much damage ThermoD can do (for your build) to just know mathematically what is possible (damage per turn average).
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How long can such a vest heal for?
enough damage at Level 8 or below to kill Tchort that could also survive long enough to deal that damage, so the question is whether ThermoD can accomplish this
Ten ticks. Regen vest takes 10% of its energy to do a heal; that never changes so it can't benefit from Power Management. Vest quality only increases DR/DT and amount healed.
The key ultimately is if you think you're going to be able to drag a tentacle or a Devourer/Sower to stand near Tchort. With 49 effective skill, if you put a ThermoD on something and kill it, you'll do 99% of its health at the time you put the debuff on it as AoE damage, split between fire and mechanical. That's sort of why the TK Proxy + Implode combo is so effective on that fight - you pull a tentacle over, it has 1k, you pop it and with max Will and skill, you then deal 3.5k in AoE which on Hard one-shots the Eye and obviously everyone else nearby. So can you pull a relatively high-health mob near the minefield by the Eye so you can kill it and use it to blow up the Eye? That's your test case for a ThermoD build.
EDIT: This is better than you'll be able to make at level 8 but to give you an idea, this is with no crafting feats (and since as Psi you don't need weapons/ammo, if you swap out P.R. for Nimble at lvl1 you have effectively 0 armor penalty):
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Okay now you've really got my attention. Thanks for those explicit numbers. If your spike damage number is correct here, that will be key:
and with max Will and skill, you then deal 3.5k in AoE
If this is true, then it should approximately also one-shot the Eye on Dominating plus or minus a MKIV grenade or trap or something and making healing not even that relevant. This would need to be tested of course.
If I understand what you are implying, this build would basically be able to walk right up to Tchort (after perhaps blowing tanks for prep and killing two tentacle) and rely on the same Sower lockout trick (or maybe quick tinker although Sower Tentacles last much longer and get created for you) and basically blow away Tchort in a couple turns. This would eliminate any concern about tremors (it would be just as fast as AR build assuming there is a way to kill a tentacle 1:1...which I assume Psionic can do at Lvl8?) so I would probably never even need to use more than 1 superstim and a regenerative mixture during initial tentacle kill phase (though bringing a regen vest can't hurt).
Am I understanding correctly? This definitely sounds like an approach with a lot of potential if it can burst out 3.5k damage in a single turn...assuming the tentacle can be killed in 2 or is it 3 turns? Can you refresh ThermoD and get the damage of its initial application? If not, how do you burst down a Tentacle in two turns at Lvl8 Psionic?
I don't think luring Adds makes as much sense because the Tchort Tentacles are 100% going to be right next to Tchort already and you have to deal with them anyways...they might as well give you the lethal...although maybe you WILL need to do a 2-enemy Devourer Devourer strat if a single Tentacle cannot actually be killed safely 1:1 at all. But this also sounds highly RNG-dependent so I am less confident about it.
A lot of stuff to test for sure. As always thanks for the feedback and discussion. I think sub-10 has to happen and it would be nice to drop all the way to 8 instead of dragging along to 9 first. I suspect that Level 7 and below, in addition to high probability of not being possible, will also be SUPER hard to execute even if possible, even in comparison to Level8. If Level 8 is doable, I might take a vacation and try the ironman challenge or something else.
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If your spike damage number is correct here, that will be key:
Well, the number is correct but i may not have made it clear that I was talking about maximum possible skill for a max psi level 25 character. ThermoD does 50% + 1% of the targets health per skill, so you need to get your Psychokinetics up to ~300 to turn the tentacles into 3.5k AoE.
For the 3 Will level 8 build you can only get 99% (I guess 105% if you use a Tchortist Noble Robe but that's probably unwise given how lean your margins are) of the targets health at the time of application, so for you, you should assume that you'll be damaging the tentacle/tchortling some, then applying ThermoD and bursting the target down with grenades mines, and whatever else you've got at your disposal. It's going to be hard, not going to lie. You should expect to be able to do 400-500 damage in a bursty turn at level 8 so figure 600-750 target health is your safe(ish) window to apply ThermoD. This still needs a fair bit of mine and grenade work on the Eye but you can accelerate your kill by probably 50%+ over strictly using mines and grenades like you had been briefly considering with Tygrende's level 4 notion.
It's just all so close. If you could do without the Int (which you maybe can't) you could have more Will and thus bigger ThermoD boom; if you could do without the Con (which you maybe can't) you could also pump that will. If you didn't need every possible point of Agi to get over instant detect thresholds....etc, etc. I can't personally theorycraft a Tchort kill on Dominating under level 8, but I wouldn't have guessed you could AR it at 10 so I'm not saying it's actually impossible, I just don't know the tricks. I truly believe a near-perfect control will let a level 8 Psi kill Tchort - I'm confident about 14, and pretty sure about 12, but ThermoD can be abused quite handily so 8 may well be possible.
Sorry if those numbers got you all worked up thinking I was talking about level 8. At level 8 you should expect sub-1k (non-crit) AoEs but that's still enough to blow the crap out of Tchortling packs and weaken other tentacles so you can chain ThermoD out and probably - probably - get the Eye. If you're going to Cheat Engine the build and just fiddle around with Tchort, at least on one play try taking Pyromaniac as your level 8 feat - that burn will represent an extra ~100-150 pre-DR damage per turn on everything is catches and that might add up nicely, but I'm not confident how it applies and it may be that you can't overcome enemy Fortitude and get the fire to stick.
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Ah, thanks for clarifying and sorry for jumping the gun. For some reason I did think you meant at Level 8 but Level 25 makes a lot more sense. The followup numbers you mention are also quite interesting...
You should expect to be able to do 400-500 damage in a bursty turn at level 8
...because I was thinking that Level 8 AR could probably still output something in that range (at least at melee distance) ~500-800 a turn at Lvl8 and Lvl9 (I doubt there's actually THAT much difference between these two Levels). But I have also still not tested. If ~800 a turn is possible, then with optimization it would still be possible to kill the tentacles and use the Sower trick to kill the Eye. Even though the tremors are somewhat of an issue, they're not THAT much of an issue that ~9-12 extra turns (a few extra bursts per tentacle kill and Eye) would outright prevent success. It should still be fast enough to outpace tentacle respawn and tremor damage with good RNG.
I would also need to test Mushroom Forest because I need to make sure Focus Stim would be enough to overcome the loss of Concentrated Fire. Mushroom Forest really is not a joke at Level 10 and it's very hard to hit things (though I didn't use traps and I bet that would have made those chompers a lot easier...assuming traps work on them, maybe they don't?). I also need to move at least 1 point from Intelligence into Perception probably, but that's REALLY going to hurt craft possibilities but I think it's necessary.
It sounds like truly a lot of testing is needed here...so I'll need to learn what the best way to CheatEngine or customize a character/save file is (maybe I'll need to manually find some offsets in memory) unless the SaveFile format is not actually encrypted (haven't actually looked if it's some standard serialization or something).
As mentioned earlier I think anything below Level 8 will be extremely interesting because I will learn something about the game far beyond my imagination...I really don't know what a Level 7 build would look like but if it can be done with Traps then there must be ways of dealing with Tchort threats that I've never even considered. I'll plan to leave that exercise to others if/so long as I can come up with something for Level 8. The more I think about it, Level 8 should be possible but just incredibly hard and frustrating because in principle Concentrated Fire is not doing anything that pure luck of 9 consecutive crits would not also accomplish. The loss of crafting makes little difference I think, the only potential issue is literally not being able to hit anything but if my memory is correct the chance to hit is never 0% and as long as hit chance 40% with goggles can be achieved you just need to hold out for luck approximating (0.4)^9 which is definitely possible.
It's also entirely possible that muzzled << compensated. I actually don't know how the math works. Does the increased burst accuracy ALWAYS increase your chance to hit or only if your gun skill is high enough that you're not below the bare minimum accuracy and getting rounded up? In other words, if an enemy has 3000 dodge/evasion and you have 10 gun skill, I think you have 10% chance to hit because it's bare minimum, does compensator give you 20% minimum or do you stay at 10% because of the skill disparity?
I think the executable's MSIL is obfuscated so it's hard to know without dev confirmation (or very labor intensive debugging/testing).
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I was thinking that Level 8 AR could probably still output something in that range (at least at melee distance) ~500-800 a turn at Lvl8 and Lvl9 (I doubt there's actually THAT much difference between these two Levels).
The biggest difference there is that 800 AR damage is just that, 800; but 500 psi damage is splashy so if you can get tight groups it's well into the low thousands. Psi does really well handling groups, and Dominating throws a ton of groups at you, so psi scales super well into Dominating. And none of my suggestions for you require anywhere near the luck of nine consecutive crits so you can probably either succeed or rule out the Psi build fairly quickly if you choose to try it (at such low levels the damage curve is basically flat with a quick jump to a plateau when you pop Trance). Anyway, whatever you decide to try, have fun with it :)
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Interesting read, however I would like to point out some problems:
1.)
ThermD @ level 8 won't really help you out that much. I tested ThermD using my Psi Sniper and obtained the following:
(https://i.imgur.com/mc1lW0g.png)
Effective meta skill = 125
ThermD = 175% Health damage (50% heat/50% Mech)
hits Tchort for 689 damage (405 Heat 284 Mech)
Tchort evades 130 damage (65 Heat 65 Mech)
Tchort resists 931 damage (405 Heat 526 Mechanical)
Raw Damage:
Total = 689 + 130 + 931 = 1750
Heat = 405 + 65 + 405 = 875
Mech = 284 + 65 + 526 = 875
So some simple math will conclude Tchort will:
Evades = (130/1750)*100% = 7.43% damage
Heat resist = 405:405 = 50%
Mech resist = 284:526 = ~65%
At 3 WIL level 8 you are only going to have 44 effective Meta skill, meaning ThermD will do 94% Health damage, so with tentacle you will get 940 raw damage, or (217 Heat + 152 Mech) 369 damage after resists + evasion.
Honestly I just don't see how you can do enough damage as a 3 WIL level 8 Psi. Your Neural Overload, even when crit, does very little damage (10-11 base).
*see http://www.underrail.com/wiki/index.php?title=Neural_Overload
2.)
Muzzled vs. compensated.
Muzzled will always wins out due to the fact the two extra bullets can crit. However this brings us to the next point which is ...
3.)
Focus stim does not help you in mushroom forest as hostiles there are immune to crit.
Remember even if you blow up all four mutagen tanks Tchort will still regen health (at a slower rate). With your damage output so low per turn I just don't see how a level 8 psi can win. I'm also doubtful a level 9 AR can win due to your low effective gun skill and Tchort's relatively high evasion.
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At 3 WIL level 8 you are only going to have 44 effective Meta skill, meaning ThermD will do 94% Health damage, so with tentacle you will get 940 raw damage, or (217 Heat + 152 Mech) 369 damage after resists + evasion.
Thanks for those specifics, very useful. It sounds like low Will is not possible then, and therefore any ThermoD build will have to involve low CON. If ThermoD can Critically hit though, it sounds like it may still be enough damage in combination with high Will?
Muzzled will always wins out due to the fact the two extra bullets can crit.
Okay whoa, Nelly! Not sure if I follow you here but it actually seems like you're making a very significant claim. Are you confirming that critical hit chance provides *additional* raw hit chance above and beyond normal hit chance? In other words, are you implying that if I have a 10% hit chance and 0% critical hit chance and then equip +10% critical chance goggles that I now have >10% hit chance? If that is the case then critical hit chance is super overpowered (and focus stims are even more overpowered than I thought).
However, I don't think this is actually true. For example, the following situation is highly repeatable for me.
(https://i.imgur.com/aCa3k8Z.jpg)
Would I really miss 9 shots so frequently if 27% crit chance meant 27% hit chance minimum? Maybe you are implying something else, but I'm not certain. My point (which is why I am surprised by your point) is that 2 additional bullets are almost worthless compared to 15% additional hit chance for the first 7, especially if hitting is required *before* critical chance can apply.
So for example, what is better (and keep in mind at Level 9 and below there will be no concentrated fire stacking to complicate the math)?
Barrel Compensator: 7 bullets with 25% hit chance at X% critical chance (shouldn't matter what the critical chance is) = 1.75 bullets hit on average
Muzzle Brake: 9 bullets with 10% hit chance at X% critical chance = 0.9 bullets hit on average
This math may not accurately reflect the game engine but IF IT DOES, then I believe this trivially indicates that it's better to shoot 7 rounds with 25% hit chance or in other words, Barrel Compensator would be much better.
Focus stim does not help you in mushroom forest as hostiles there are immune to crit.
Ah okay, too bad and also...what a strange developer decision. Anyway, even though I was whining a bit I think that's still not actually a showstopping problem. The fact remains that there are trap possibilities, molatov possibilities, and just raw saveloading for good RNG and hits. For example, I was inspired to collect some data, so I loaded back up my last-stage-of-Tchort-Fight Level 10 save file and repeatedly killed Tchort (pretty consistent actually, ~60% win rate from this save where I am mid-map and Tchort is full HP but all tentacles just killed).
I didn't count killing blows because those don't give me the full damage readout, but the first 2 shots per load I could quickly see how much damage and many hits based on concentrated fire stacks. I collected all data at POINT BLANK RANGE DIRECTLY IN FRONT OF THE EYE while having some form of TchortSower Tentacle wall protecting me from adds (see screenshot for the situation right before I walk up to Eye and start shooting, I actually did have Focused for these shots even though the screenshot implies I would move and fire next turn).
(https://i.imgur.com/g8UrRrF.jpg)
| Trial | Total Burst Damage | Total Hits |
| 1 | 1383 | 8 |
| 2 | 1142 | 8 |
| 3 | 835 | 8 |
| 4 | 1124 | 8 |
| 5 | 1526 | 9 |
| 6 | 911 | 8 |
| 7 | 1000 | 8 |
| 8 | 818 | 7 |
| 9 | 1560 | 9 |
| 10 | 1154 | 9 |
| 11 | 842 | 7 |
| 12 | 832 | 8 |
| 13 | 1006 | 6 |
| Average | 1087.15384615385 | 7.92307692307692 |
Tchort doesn't seem to regen even after 4 turns and the tentacles don't seem to come back even after 6+ turns...does anybody know/have a reference for what those exact numbers are by the way (for mutagen puzzle + tanks blown)?
I suspect that it's not too much to ask Level 8 AR to output half of these damage numbers and if that happens, it means Level 8 should be absolutely doable. The problem though is that the I am assuming that damage is halving because of loss of Concentrated Fire but that I can still hit with mostly the same weapon and buffs. If there is a massive accuracy cliff where Level 8 can't even land a shot, then projecting the damage loss from gear/skill multipliers and calculating extra turns needed for net damage don't really matter at all.
So the next step I think is testing AR Lvl8 and ThermoD Lvl8 (high Will) to get exact numbers. I wonder if AR Level 8 can actually ditch Agility almost completely and go all-in Perception/Int. The loss of stealth points and interloper won't "really matter" except vs. Tchort because Jumping Bean + Adrenaline can be heavily abused to squeak by everywhere else I think. Worst case scenario the Lunatic Mall has to be done using TONS of traps and gas grenades (but I think still entirely doable this way, just painful). This *probably* won't work though because I think you have to destroy mutagen tanks (the healing and tentacle regen is too fast otherwise) and high stealth+ interloper really really helps with that. But maybe that optimal supersteel gear + optimal tabis + optimal balaclava + optimal cloaker can pull through...
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We need a dev to confirm this, but I don't think ThermoD can crit.
Re: Muzzled vs. compensated - sorry I'm wrong here as I wasn't really thinking about your specific case. With your effective gun skill so low I do agree w/ you compensated wins for your case.
edit: @SubterminalOptimization - didn't realize you can block the passage using Sower Tentacle wall. I'm wondering if I have your permission to add this tip and use your image in my Steam guide?
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We need a dev to confirm this, but I don't think ThermoD can crit.
Oh I see! If ThermoD cannot crit then I think combining this fact with your earlier data is pretty definitive. It sounds like AR may actually be a more fruitful investigative route for Level 8 after all.
Re: Muzzled vs. compensated - sorry I'm wrong here as I wasn't really thinking about your specific case. With your effective gun skill so low I do agree w/ you compensated wins for your case.
Ah okay, no problem, understood. To be clear, you may also absolutely still be right. It depends on what the actual hit chance turns out to be. If hit chance is high enough, going for the max damage would still be worth it (because achieving certain max damage breakpoints such as 1 shotting or 2 shotting enemies would be worth the lower consistency and doing some saveloading). I was simply providing a hypothesis that could justify compensator being better but I am not 100% certain that it is a valid hypothesis for Level 8, for example.
I'm wondering if I have your permission to add this tip and use your image in my Steam guide?
Absolutely you have my permission. However, you should know that the tentacle wall I showed in my previous screenshot was an amusing/unusual one that I just went ahead and used. However, for my data gathering (where I had to repeatedly kill the Eye at Level 10 from the same mid-map save) I confirmed that by far the more consistent/reliable positioning is the one where you only need a single square to be blocked. You actually want to stand right next to the tentacle-hole (even if you have more movement points) and specifically wait there for the sowers to shoot at you. The outcome will look like this:
(https://i.imgur.com/FWRsZ29.jpg)
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Hey guys, I'm back with the first half of what will likely be my final update (it's taking me longer to write than expected). As a result, I'm going to try to add a lot of information here in case anybody ever wants to try to push further (which I believe is possible). Perhaps that will be me in the expansion, but not for now I think. Anyway, inspired by the discussion here, I performed a lot of Assault Rifle-based testing and obtained a lot of data since my previous post on this thread. I've completed my most recent run fairly quickly, largely as a result of the unexpectedly promising testing data.
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TESTING
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As already stated, I believe the Tchort Fight is the sole gatekeeper of the run. There are other difficult areas but I think they are strictly easier than the Tchort Fight in terms of virtually every requirement: raw health, raw damage, stealthing/sustained survivability without saveload checkpoints.
I mainly tested by repeatedly reloading my reference save files at Tchort Fight, using Cheat Engine to modify my skill numbers, and attempting to complete the fight. This is very easy to do if you have a Level-up pending, as you can freely manipulate the value in the Skills screen up or down and iteratively search for those exact numbers in memory. You can set the numbers to anything you want (you can have "impossible" totals that don't sum up to what you should be able to have at your Level).
GUNS
Through my testing I was able to confirm that, among other things, it is possible to kill Tchort Tentacles with far less gun skill than I thought. I only tested down to the range of Guns 55-59 because I initially believed that that would be the lowest relevant skill level, but at this point I'm not so sure. In any event, my testing revealed that this range is/was sufficient to kill tentacles in a "reasonable" amount of time with comparable-skill-level crafted guns. I am defining "reasonable" as fast enough to kill 3 tentacles (with tanks blown + mutagen puzzle) and have them all simultaneously dead for a minimum of 7 additional turns (it seems that Tchort Tentacles take 20 turns to respawn!!). Dealing 600-700 damage (maybe more) against tentacles in a single burst (with various relevant buffs) is no longer probable but it is still absolutely possible and moreover that is actually far more damage than what is needed. You do not even need to be point blank range for this much damage (I was several squares away) to achieve this.
HEALTH
I now believe that TheAverageGortsby is correct that a Regenerative Vest with Black Cloth is the optimal chest armor for lowest-possible-level Tchort Fight. Even at extremely low-skill crafting there is almost no downside because your Maximum HP will be so low that the absolute healing number is still a huge proportion of your health pool...the most relevant part is that you receive sustained healing (10 increments) without having to break stealth *and* those incremenets are guaranteed to not be wasted (since they only trigger belopw 70% HP).
I didn't thoroughly test whether low levels will run into trouble with respect to stealth instant-detection-threshold (since they can only make low-stealth Regenerative Vests) but I am fairly sure that Rathound Regalia will not be sufficient for characters with ~90 HP or lower and I am not sure low levels can afford to put points into Constitution.
STEALTH
I confirmed that with Stealth in the range of ~120 (not counting cloaking device) you can still pretty easily stay undiscovered during the entire tank-blowing-phase of the Tchort Fight and that is really not a high number at all considering that gear can trivially provide more than half of that number. At 120 stealth though, I think a cloaker is necessary to avoid heading towards extreme RNG (I didn't bother to wait for perfect RNG) and, as mentioned, I neglected to verify the exact instant-detection-threshold so that is something to test for lower level runs.
TACTICS
Although Cheat Engine was extremely helpful to confirm certain projected skill numbers, I also found it equally helpful to load and reload my unmodified Level 10 Tchort Fight save files and complete the fight multiple times. What I found is that not only was my Level 10 Tchort Fight strategy repeatable but it can actually be further optimized and leverage saveloads for relative-easy-to-obtain RNG that is extremely beneficial. Crucially, it is possible to get RNG such that the two following things are true:
1. *ALL* Tchortlings travel to the North-East-most Mutagen Tank (if it is the last one blown up) and leave the West side of the map completely clear for Tentacle killing by using the shack (and are not close enough to aggro even from 9 round AR bursts)
2. *ALL* Tchortlings *remain* grouped in that North-East-most Mutagen Tank even *after* killing the three Tentacles, resulting in the situation that you can literally (in combat) walk right up to Tchort and take free shots on him without any interference for 7+ turns (until Tentacles respawn).
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Level 6 Run
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The target level for this run was largely based on the testing data I had available. Through testing I determined that Level 6 could obtain Gun Skill 60 without sacrificing access to Chem/Bio Skill 60 or Interloper. Interloper Feat+optimal gear allows for a successful mutagen-tank-blowing phase of the Tchort fight and I also knew from testing that Gun Skill 60 could *easily* provide enough damage per second to complete the Tentacle/Eye Killing phase of the Tchort Fight. Levels below 6 lose access to Full Auto (a massive 22% raw damage increase Feat) and I was concerned that I couldn't properly/fully test a Level 5 scenario (I don't know how to remove Feats from a Save File) even though I observed that 55 Gun Skill alone shouldn't be a showstopper (though harder).
From previous runs, I knew that so long as stealthing the mutagen tanks and killing Tentacles in a few turns each is possible, the entire rest of the run should be possible because everything combat-related is essentially strictly easier than these two tasks.
I have now completed Dominating at Level 6 using:
Str: 7
Dex: 3
Agi: 7
Con: 3
Per: 10
Will: 3
Int: 8
Feats:
Echoing Soliloquy (No reason not to get this right? However, it should be noted that Eye of Tchort stacks extremely fast that there's not much difference...it seems to stack even faster at lower Character levels but I'm not certain)
Gun Nut (It's very possible, though I'm not 100% certain, that Recklessness is better/easier and should be in this slot. I thought Gun Nut was the least risky choice assuming perfect RNG.)
Opportunist
Suppressive Fire
Interloper
Full-Auto
Skills:
Guns 40 (60)
Stealth 40 (122 with just highest-stealth gear and skills, with cloaking device effective 162...For this run I did not hesitate to use Jumping Bean+Adrenaline for all the "challenging" parts...for all stealthing I used Rathound Regalia because 10% movement speed +25 stealth with Interloper...for Tchort Fight I only switchen to Regenerative Vest for the Killing Tentacle/Eye Phase)
Traps 40 (39) (I used 6 EMP traps during Arke Fight and a couple crawler poison traps for Tchort Fight, but never got too fancy here, used plain old bear traps virtually everywhere else)
Mechanics 40 (53) (60 with House)
Electronics 40 (53) (60 with House)
Chemistry 40 (53) (60 with House)
Biology 40 (53) (60 with House)
Tailoring 40 (53) (60 with House)
I crafted (with House):
- 9mm Smart Muzzled Hornet 14-45, +32% special attacks + second copy with +30% special attack (2 guns are necessary for Arke and Tchort Fight to avoid needing to use a damaged weapon or repairing midfight somehow)...I also absolutely could not find better smart modules (skill required 45 was the best without going over 60, even though I waited 10 shop cycles before taking the elevator and checking EVERY shop)
- Efficient High Frequency Shield Emitter 597 Capacity, Conversion Rate 8.9, 10% dissipation, 5/16/66/98/126
- Regenerative Overcoat 24% / 5 Mechanical, 15% Armor Penalty, Stealth Increased by 22, 29 Health for 5 Energy every turn when below 70% HP, 50 Energy capacity
Noncrafted:
- Biohazard Boots. I hadn't used these before but they make the final room of Mushroom Forest a lot easier since you don't lose perception or ability to do full bursts while wearing them yet they fully stack with CAU armor.
- Purchased from Oculus store:
- +13% Critical Hit Chance Seeker Night Vision goggles (87 energy capacity, turning on costs 9, consumes 3 energy every 5 seconds), I mostly used these since I think they are better but got the second pair below just in case.
- +27% Special Attacks Smart Night Vision goggles (79 energy capacity, turning on costs 9, consumes 3 energy every 5 seconds)
- +22% movement speed/30 stealth Ninja Tabis. I probably could buy better if extremely patient or get better by killing all CoreTech Runners but I was pretty confident based on my tests that these would be "good enough". I wore these Ninja Tabis for the entire Tchort fight and I'm not sure that anything crafted would be better. The stealth is critical for mutagen-tank-blowing Phase and the movement points are critical for the Killing Tentacle/Eye Phase.
-Quest Reward from JKK:
+42 stealth cloaking device, 76 energy, turn on costs 21, consume 7.14 every 5 seconds
- Rathound Regalia (I don't believe it is possible to craft anything better than this for stealthing purposes not counting Regen Vest for Tchort Fight)
- Chemical Assault Unit Armor (I just kill the CAU members outside of the Free Drones base when it's "Go Time" and I don't care about burning Protectorate bridge)
- Standard +17 stealth balaclava (I could not craft better and didn't get the option to buy better)
- Bullet Belt (of course)
- W2C bullets for all the "major" fights in Deep Caverns (You need a fair amount at Level 6. I took the Faceless +300 and I also brought 350 W2C rounds with me from buying nonstop through the run, I finished Deep Caverns with 200 rounds left so I used ~450 across Mushroom Forest, Arke, Tchort Fight)
This run I used ChemicalAssaultUnit Armor only for MushroomForest. RathoundRegalia was used for early Tchort fight and almost everywhere else except early (before Core City main quests). I used Regenerative Overcoat in only one place: the post-mutagen-tanks Tentacle/Eye Kill Phase (you can switch armor inside the shack after first exiting stealth but before fighting tentacles).
Final experience bar (before boarding Train to North Underrail): 185147 / 6000
Notes of interest:
Overall
- I needed to save and load a lot more, even compared to Level 10, but I still didn't need to reload more than ~20-25 times at any given single place. There were a lot more places that I needed to reload ~10+ times though. Also, I skipped Carnifex, so these reloads were in mandatory/required spots, such as Hollow Earth TH44 manual stealthing or JKK Final Mission. I completed the Tchort Fight in under 30 minutes, with ~20 reloads and 6 total saves. I actually reloaded more on the first room of the JKK Final Mission than the Tchort Fight. Since I had already broken the Tchort Fight down to a science and a reproducible solution during all of my testing, I was pleased but not surprised that this was, relatively speaking, smooth and easy.
- I took significantly more time in Deep Caverns and on Tchort compared to my Level 14 and Level 16 runs but was not too much slower than my Level 10 run. The gatekeepers (Mushroom Forest, Arke Fight, Tchort Fight) are unchanged. All of Deep Caverns combined took on the order of ~6 hours. The Labyrinth is a joke and absurdly easy with Interloper even at Level 6 (and with practice dodging those linebacker worms trying to tackle you). I only needed to reload once during the *entire* drive shaft segment from starting at Caerus back to Caerus.
- The central theme to the *majority* of this run (everything outside of Mushroom Forest and Tchort) is again: Toxic Gas Grenades, Flashbangs, Molotov Cocktails, Bear Traps, and EMP Mines. If you can't Bear Trap enemies, flashbang them and/or EMP them as appropriate. If you can't flashbang or EMP them, burn them with molotovs. If you can't fight them at all, use precious Toxic Gas Grenades for a guaranteed kill.
- Toxic Gas Grenades should have their wiki entry updated to reflect the fact that they are in fact the single most broken single weapon in the game. You can use them to kill virtually any biological enemy in the game regardless of your level or skills, full stop. I think this was what was alluded to by destroyor when he said:
Emporiom could probably be cheese using toxic gas grenades.
But I did not really fully appreciate/understand that until now. Not only can I guarantee that Lunatic Mall can be cleared using toxic gas grenades, I can guarantee that literally all non-immune biological/humanoid enemies in the game can be killed by a Level 1 character on Dominating using these grenades. These grenades, so long as you have enough of them and no time pressures (I was buying Toxic Sludge like candy from every vendor from SGS to Blaine to Junkyard to University), will allow you to kill enemies without entering their line of sight or initiating combat. They work around corners, and just keep stacking damage regardless of whether enemies have 2000+ HP. The actual mechanism is very simple: continuously throw toxic gas grenades near your enemies (within 1 or 2 squares) but stay out of line of sight or quickly move away after throwing. However, I say that the wiki should be updated because the *implications* of this are absurd.
For example, just as a reference, I killed virtually every single member of Jacek's 1000+ HP gang, including Jacek, except the weak Psi guy in the back, while surgically avoiding damaging Hugo for even a single HP (he only has 90). Except for the last guy, I never entered combat and never fired a round.
After flashbang-stealthing, I also used Toxic Gas Grenades to kill Pulverizer in Arena without re-entering combat or using any traps. ~2200 HP? No problem.
Although I didn't test it and am not 100% certain, I'm very confident that (flashbang-stealth step aside) killing Carnifex would be trivial at Level 1 with this strategy.
- Based on this run, and in particular the Tchort Fight experience, I believe I was wrong to say a Level 4 run is not possible. I still believe that under Level 4 is likely impossible and I believe that Level 4 and Level 5 may not be possible but are *likely* possible as a run moves closer toward Tool-Assisted-level perfect RNG and sticking with an AR-style build.
- Stealth is insane, but stealth with stealth +movement tabis, rathound regalia, plentiful Adrenaline, and also plentiful Jumping Bean is so good that even at Lvl 6 I'm absolutely stunned at effectiveness. I cannot believe how effective it is even with a weak cloaking device and only 7 Agility. I didn't even bother with Agility Steak this time around at Lunatic Mall.
- I didn't even craft 100% optimal gear, especially for the Smart Modules I used, and I still didn't feel much gear-related pain. I possibly got lucky with some of my shop purchases, but that is definitely one of the reasons why I emphasize lower level runs start requiring more time investment and RNG. As crafting becomes weaker and weaker, the run depends more and more on finding perfect store-bought items for certain slots: balaclava, cloaking device, tabis, and goggles
- I knew I wasn't going for SuperSteel this run so I didn't have to worry about saving Charons so money wasn't an issue at all (as long as I made sure to sell all the guns that I did find).
Tchort Fight *and* Mushroom Forest *and* Arke Fight Consumables
- This run I made a ton more consumables and used them generously. I rarely waited for a buff to run out before refreshing it (it's rarely optimal Action Point-wise).
- Focus Stims - Crafted 12. Didn't need to do the old killing Coretech employees routine. Used 3-4 for each of Arke Fight and Tchort Fight.
- Regenerative Mixture - I still don't know how to get regenerative mixture except by killing Caerus Residential Vents guy "Gunter Vasilica" so I still did that. I only used one and it probably wasn't needed, for the Tchort Fight Phase 2.
- Aegis - I came prepared with a crafted stack of 9. Perhaps counterintuitively these didn't seem to be make much difference except slightly in Mushroom Forest final room.
- Iron Gut - I came to Deep Caverns with 12 and chugged these nonstop in Mushroom Forest final room encounters. I ended the run with 3 left.
- Jumping Bean - I crafted 12 and chugged them all the time to make stealthing or move/shooting/ducking easier. I used 6 of these. These things are amazing!
- Super Health Hypos - Since I'm friendly with Faceless I have 100% reliable Super Health Hypos to pair with Morphine (although I guess you only could ever really use 1?)
- Morphine - it's really only relevant for final hits on Tchort Eye if a tentacle comes back or if you're unlucky but want to keep going in the Mushroom Forest final room. The reason is the same for why Aegis isn't so good: the vast majority of tactics should be aimed at completely avoiding ever being in a position where an enemy can damage you.
- For Tchort Fight only I saveloaded for +2 Constitution -2 Dex (or something useless) Junkyard Surprise (this is definitely worth doing instead of just accepting a +1 constitution burger).
- Adrenaline Shot - I didn't end up using these vs. Tchort because with my current strategy there is no point at which it is optimal to wait out the debuff time...you want to burst every single possible turn and there should never be a situation where a few extra AP make the difference between survival/success or not. I did generously use Adrenaline in Mushroom Forest this time around because I strategically segmented the last room into several fights instead of one continuous (and extremely dangerous) fight.
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Tchort Fight Strategy Summary
- Descend ladder in full stealth except for Gas Mask swapout when needed (Gas Mask is NOT optional).
- Place two TNT charges on *the left/West side* Mutagen Tanks and blow them. Be careful to hug the left wall for the NorthWest tank path or Tchort will see you (I always do this one first).
- Place two TNT charges on the *right/East side* Mutagen Tanks and blow them - saving the NorthEast-most tank (the one on the right edge of the screen) for last.
- At this point, *wait for parade* then dodge back to the left side. I say "wait for parade" because there can be 12 (12 is what I screenshotted and counted last run) Tchortling/Spitters/Devourers that all grouped up on the right side platform in a nice square ball to investigate the TNT. My tests revealed this is 100% consistent behavior. In addition, with good RNG, these Tchortlings will stay relatively-densely packed for enough time to kill the remaining Tentacles AND Tchort without ever straying far enough to the center to aggro you. This is a foundational component of my strategy.
- I don't think it's 100% necessary, but I used combat-stealthing (enter combat, move, exit combat) to easily maneuver past the enemies to get to Western shack as quickly as possible and keep Tchort tremor damage low. The amount of time you have to wait for openings through the "parade" varies with RNG.
- Trap laying is neither necessary nor relevant. Just rely on RNG for the enemies to never stray toward the center and everything becomes easier and better. In my experience this happens almost 20% of the time if not more.
- Mutagen Puzzle was Completed, so now Three tentacles to fight: the tentacle types remaining should not actually matter - if you execute strategy properly they will never attack. (My Exitus 1 "seed" was: CB V1 KU NX TM HG XC MH EV JC). I've been stealthed 100% of the time until now so Tentacles have not left the Eye area until now.
- The left-side (West side) shack is crucial because you can go back there, exit combat and get a save snapshot, switch to full combat gear and then PICK OFF TENTACLES WHILE DODGING BEHIND SHACK DOOR after each burst. The Tentacles appear in a perfect formation such that none of them can hit you inside shack but all can easily be hit from right outside shack door. The Tchort-adds on the other side of the map DO NOT aggro or come over (I think they are too far away for sound).
- I killed all three tentacles this way (plenty of focus stims for all these separate shots). As mentioned, even if several squares away you can easily deal hundreds of damage per burst at Level 6. After killing all 3 Tentacles, exit combat and get a save/snapshot in.
- with Regenerative Overcoat and optimized movement my health barely ticked down. Tremors were still at the 26-30 damage range.
- Key moment: This is where we rely on RNG and not silly Tchortling Spitter :p. Walk towards Eye of Tchort and you will hopefully see NO Tchortlings at all. It's that simple. Just a completely empty open path right to the Eye. If your RNG is good, you can enter combat on the walkway, run right up to the Eye and unload nonstop Focus-Stimmed-bursts for 7-10+ turns (based on Tentacle respawn and how long you can survive that particular tentacle focusing you with all buffs up). I had enormous margin here and probaby with only a little bit more optimization could have dealt closer to 5000 damage rather than the 3000 HP needed to kill Tchort (based on my turn margin).
- Even after Tchort is dead, if you're lucky, the Tchortlings will be nowhere near you so you can literally immediately save, stretch, relax, fully rebuff, and then stroll to the Ladder (and if unlucky, maybe pick off one stray minion...although even with madness debuff they won't fight each other at all if they were never in combat so there may be a lot of "survivors").
Tchort Fight Notes
- I did Mutagen Puzzle because tentacles are very hard to kill now and my HP is just too low (and my current fight approach requires tentacles completely out of the fight for a while). I can no longer reliably one-burst tentacles. It is important to kill them as quickly as possible but there is absolutely no way to fight them directly (without shack dodging).
- Fighting Tchortling adds is unnecessary and extremely dangerous. You cannot reliably win a 1:1 fight vs. any type and in fact will probably lose.
Arke IRIS Fight
- Definitely want to clean up the initial bots before talking to Arke and de-power all four power switches in the room.
- This fight is a lot harder at Level 6. I went all out with 12 EMP mines and 15 bear traps, alternating layers of Bear Traps and EMP Mines so that the bots would be constantly stunned. I had to leave a sneaky path for me to get back inside the bottom left console area (my holdout) of course.
- When the south entrance bots initially spawn they will be in a group and you get a good hit/free bursts there, so there should always be an EMP mine there
- I used W2C bullets mandatory for almost *everything* and not just Industrial Bots, unless I KNEW I could get away with a non-W2C burst for a weak/stunned enemy.
- I actually did need both guns, my first gun got yellow during the fight from how much bursting was needed.
- The four center turrets are easy to clean up at the end but I was also able to exit combat and get a save in before killing them
- Focus stims were definitely massively helpful here.
- It was not needed for this run, but I observed that it is possible to semi-reliably get the bots into a "stuck" pattern in front of the narrow door where two bots are both trying to get in and end up walling off all other enemies so you can get almost unlimited free hits if you aim past them. This could be abused even at Level 1 to potentially complete the fight, though I'm not sure if this would count as a bug/exploit (it's definitely behavior I've seen elsewhere).
Arke Basement
- I no longer reliably one-burst Greater Coil Spiders. This is a pain. I need to flashbang and molotov much more now.
- I killed the initial scorpions with bear traps and killed the spiders guarding the first key. I then planted one TNT and lured almost ALL spiders out of big electricity room and into hallway. I was still able to sneak by without fighting (again except for earlier, the first small room with two spiders for door key to open the big electricity room).
- Similar to Caerus Residential, there are two key strategies for Electro Spider killing:
Need to kill one spider and you are near door? Burst spider then close door.
Need to kill two spiders (Wasi Abdul keycard, Arke basement key)? Burst one spider, adrenaline, flashbang, burst second spider. Update for Level 6 run: molotov and run back to a door multiple times.
Need to kill three spiders? You're doing something wrong, there is never a time this is needed. However, molotov and door-running theoretically scales to any number of spiders since they do not heal.
- You can always easily just go right to the ladder in the last room of Arke Basement, saveload if the scorpions bump you. You can obviously trap if you really need to but it's not even necessary.
Mushroom Forest
- Even with CAU Armor and Biohazard boots I take damage here. CAU Armor really seems to be mandatory. Add in Irongut+Aegis though and only the chompers can do meaningful damage.
- The room before the final room is still a joke with some simple Adrenal+Jumping Bean + Irongut + running to the transition.
- New with Level 6: the last room is no longer so simple. I have to do partial kiting instead of waking everything at once. Now I kill the left-most mushroom sentry using hit and run even though it will respawn very quickly. I need to do this so that I can safely inch forward and aggro ONLY the first spitter/chomper pair and then kite them back (so I only have to fight two enemies at once).
- Now I can inch further forward north and aggro the next one and the next one (ignore the sentries for now). Keep chugging irongut and thinning out the non-respawning enemies.
- After the non-respawners are gone, mostly return to old strategy.
- Taking the "northern" path to the heart and hiding behind the rock or whatever allows me to focus shooting the heart from relative safety.
- I don't bother killing the sentry, because with enough buffs + energy shield+ biohazard boots+cau armor it doesn't do enough damage plus killing it would take so much ammo and turns that it would not actually give me more effective damage time on the heart itself (before my gun durability or HP run out).
- I am glad I crafted a bunch of Iron Gut but with Biohazard boots and very good RNG I can still imagine a world where sub-Level 6 is possible without it.
Tchort Institute
- mostly the same as Level 10
- Again I sneak into Eidein's office, kill his guards to trigger "tremors", go down elevator, go BACK UP elevator, and he is there.
- A very nice side effect for this run in particular is that I am able to place multiple layers of Bear Traps around where Eidein WILL be but before he's actually there, so there's zero chance for problems in that fight (I basically can't hit Tchortists unless they are immobilized and even then it's much more likely that I'll need multiple bursts to kill them).
- I just assassinate Eidein and go back down and done with Institute (within minutes of joining the Institute if I wanted to, this time around I had to do a lot of shopping and shop refreshes).
- I do not know if this is a "bug" but it is confusing that some zones "autohostile" you even when stealthed (rest of the Institute) and others don't (elevator area) even when they both have an alert "Eye" to indicate "Controlled Zone"
- This time I carried 229 Weight Units of stuff (Lightly Encumbered) into Deep Caverns with me and I used a lot more of what I brought this time.
Lunatic Mall (Jumping Bean Mall)
-This Time: I just use Jumping Bean+Adrenal+Cloaker and tight clicking to get past first floor (no killing).
-I use Toxic Gas Grenades to kill the 2 guys on the left-hand-side, then a couple traps + burst on the patrolling guy.
-The person inside the bottom left store I just used one bear trap to keep out of my line of sight, didn't need to kill but timing was annoying.
I can still use Adrenaline + Jumping Bean + my stealth gear. Those buffs all stack and it's still insane. Jumping Bean + Adrenaline + 22% boots + Rathound Regalia + Interloper.
I did get barely-orange eyes on the guys around the statue table but I moved so fast that I easily outran all of the investigation movement and they turned back to yellow before I even got halfway toward the blue floor transition.
First Protectorate Epione Lab Quest to kill Upper Underrail Free Drone Base with Shredder
- You can toss several grenades at the front door like a doorbell, so actually you don't need to do the riskier back-door area with no retreat space.
- Toxic Gas Grenades + Molatovs + Bear Traps were all prepped outside the door ahead of time. I needed 1 save reload. I literally killed them all more easily this time at Level 6 than my first Dominating run at level ~20?. Insane.
JKK Questline
-The JKK Quest Line is WAY easier with stealth, although the last quest with the Spiders was annoying.
- For the last JKK quest, the Ghoul/Mutants are also a real pain to fight or sneak by without aggroing the whole floor so I painstakingly gas grenaded the southern room with 3 mutants without entering combat. I had to use a different throwing angle and separate grenades for each one I gassed. But it was definitely rewarding in the end.
-For the last JKK quest, I used molotov + running to burn that stupid patrolling spider in the utility room down over the course of three throw molotov/run/door close cycles. This was especially necessary at Level 6.
-For the last JKK quest, for the patrolling bots, a couple EMP mines and/or bear traps makes the job a lot easier.
-For the last JKK quest, I lured the Industrial Bot into the neighboring room from the pump controller and then closed the doors on him because, again, screw him.