Underrail Forum
Underrail => General => Topic started by: len on March 24, 2018, 05:43:12 pm
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I am at a loss on what to do against them, that's the reason why I made an account here to ask people what they do against them. Running a melee sledgehammer build, currently level 13 - stats are 13/3/6/10/3/3/5, as for skills I leveled melee, evasion, lockpicking, hacking, mechanics, electronics, biology and tailoring, my feats are Conditioning, Recklessness, Sprint, Pummel, Vile Weaponry, Thick Skull, Guard and Taste for Blood. Have a good Tungsten sledgehammer equipped with a solid metal armor. I'm stacked up on torches but they literally don't do anything, I can throw them around all day but they don't detect anything, they stab me and they vanish even if I sit at the top of the thrown torch. I have motion detection goggles with 75,25% increased detection and a low frequency shield (which gets drained in the end anyways) but they don't seem to be helping at all, it's so frustrating. I never have enough AP to walk around and find them in time, and even if I do they just vanish into the ceiling the second I spot them, not to mention the ridiculous amount of dodge they have meaning most of my attacks don't even connect. Is running literally my only option against them? Help.
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Which difficulty setting are you playing on?
In general you need incendiary grenades, caltrops (Crawlers are immune to poisons so use regular version) against Crawler/Death Stalkers. You will also need taser/flashbang/throwing net to bring their dodge down to zero if you are having trouble w/ accuracy. One strategy I like to use is to light everything on fire using incendiary grenades and leave a single "safe" path (one tile path that's not on fire, use wall to block the other side) in turn based mode. The crawlers/Death Stalkers will attempt to walk on the "safe" tiles so you can use mp to bump them out of stealth by walking back and forth on these "safe" tiles. You can watch your combat feed + caltrops on the ground and throw grenades/flares to bring them out of stealth.
Running away is also another option. They don't really drop anything good unless you are farming crawler stinger for meds.
Forgot to mention: you might want to consider crafting a TiChrome hammer and use tabi + lifting belt as this will allow you three attacks per turn without the use of adrenaline.
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I am playing on Normal difficulty, I haven't tried the incendiary grenades or caltrops thingy, will try that. Can I use caltrops while being in combat? Also I tried using tazer on a Death Stalker and he was immune, if I remember correctly. Can't remember if regular crawlers were immune to stunning from it. I am using the lifting belt with pig leather tabis, but the dazed effect hurts me so much, I barely manage to find one and I'm all out of AP already.
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Yes you can use caltrops while being in combat. You can manually enter combat by pressing the "ENTER" key.
I'm not 100% sure but I don't think Death Stalkers are immune to taser. What probably happened was it "resisted" the stun (see http://www.underrail.com/wiki/index.php?title=Fortitude#Defense).
Again if you are not farming for their stinger running, if possible, is the best option. If you do want to take them on run to a corner, manually enter combat, set your surrounding on fire and leave a "safe" path, use caltrops for extra detection. Flashbang is your safest bet to bring them out of stealth; throwing net is pretty good if you have high effective throwing skill; taser should be use as a last resort. Note you might not have enough utilities slots so you might have to swapped or equipped during combat for 50AP.
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Alright, I will try your suggestions, and thank you for the tips. :)
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I'm surprised it hasn't been mentioned here but if you *know* there are Death Stalkers ahead, setting several bear traps to make a wall (outside of combat) and waiting for them to come to you (or throwing a grenade or using TNT to attract them) is basically a 100% autowin.
This may be considered cheesy but it's definitely not an exploit or bug or anything like that.
In all of my runs I have always used bear traps unless I absolutely had to use a flashbang or something else "dynamic" (but that's very unusual).
Also, if you have the Intimidating "Yell" feat that is almost literally a sonar for scorpions and makes it probably 5x easier to find/kill them consistently.
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He's playing a hammer user so he doesn't have quick tinkering and likely wouldn't be carrying any bear trap. But yes, you are right bear traps are very effective vs. crawlers/death stalkers. Yell ... not so much due to the long cooldown.
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I'm surprised it hasn't been mentioned here but if you *know* there are Death Stalkers ahead, setting several bear traps to make a wall (outside of combat) and waiting for them to come to you (or throwing a grenade or using TNT to attract them) is basically a 100% autowin.
Yeah but there are a bunch of tools that you can use if you've got metaknowledge. I know you haven't played much psi yet, but my favorite example of meta breaking the game is that Force Field reveals hidden units anywhere.
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Just another example as to why Death Stalkers need some extra tuning.
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Alright. just to be clear, I registered just to whine about death stalkers.
I don't know why people don't just flat-out say what they think. Afraid someone on the internet would call you noobs or what? Sure, the game is supposed to be hard. I get that, it's not your everyday ho-hum game where you just max one stat and kill everything with one click of the mouse. But is it supposed to be stupid hard, like in a stupid way? Be honest here, did any of you beat death stalkers the first time you met them in each area where they lurk? Like anyone, ever? I bet not. So the only way to beat them is basically "save scumming" after you know they're coming for you. There are no telltale signs for their presence(red dream mushrooms aren't always around), no hints about their weaknesses (if they actually had any), nothing. You're left with just some tips on the forums and a your best friend F9 to help you beat them eventually when they run out of luck under your blind bombardment.
I'm playing on hard and the first time I met a stalker I got crit'ed right off the bat for 160 damage (before reductions), which is a-freaking-lot at level 13. Then when I found out I can't heal I said to myself "oh ok, antidote it is then"... nope not an option either. Then I used a molotov to try to reveal it while at the same time cutting it off. Of course it wasn't there because it has crazy stealth MP. So I thought I was safe for the stun duration, tried to wait it out but the damn thing actually appeared next to me again. Turned out they crawl on the ceiling pipes or something... Not sure how that goes together with you trying to detect it when it's nowhere in your 2D plane. Long story short, eventually I used the best way to deal with a death stalker, namely caltrops+flare(or any other aoe) the moment you see they stepped on it. Just when I said to myself "well, at least they're beatable when you know they're there", 2 more appeared +1 crawler, one of them critting me. End of story.
So... I ask the devs, how do you beat 3 death stalkers+1crawler at level 13 without reloading till you meet them 1 by 1? Is this the "hard" you were aiming for? Hard to load into the right situation? And this is just one of the over the top enemies. How about those machinegun auto-turrets at level 8-9? Unless you hack them, I'd like to see you dispatching them with a melee character. 5 bullet bursts with 60% armor penetration and each bullet hits twice. Not to mention the increased mechanical threshold.
This way of making a game more difficult isn't challenging, it's frustrating and annoying because no matter how smart you are or well equipped your character is, you still depend on the right circumstances and anticipating your enemies.
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Be honest here, did any of you beat death stalkers the first time you met them in each area where they lurk? Like anyone, ever? I bet not. So the only way to beat them is basically "save scumming" after you know they're coming for you.
how do you beat 3 death stalkers+1crawler at level 13 without reloading till you meet them 1 by 1? Is this the "hard" you were aiming for? Hard to load into the right situation? And this is just one of the over the top enemies. How about those machinegun auto-turrets at level 8-9? Unless you hack them, I'd like to see you dispatching them with a melee character. 5 bullet bursts with 60% armor penetration and each bullet hits twice. Not to mention the increased mechanical threshold.
I did die the first time I got ambushed by Crawlers, but every group after that I was able to handle, without prior knowledge. There are lots of environmental clues. Part of UnderRail is being good at combat, but part of it is being good at reading what's around you and making good decisions based on that. So, yeah, on Hard and even on Dominating, Crawlers/Death Stalkers aren't too much trouble.
Use traps and grenades. Simple bear traps, which require 0 skill, are super useful against crawler-types. Molotovs are amazing. And if you're playing on a high difficulty setting, then when you come to an area where there are skeletons laying around, maybe pay a little extra attention. You don't need optimal placement, you just need to use all the tools at your disposal.
Turrets are pretty easy - the only real threat is that they can often see you and ruin your sneaky surprise plans. But every single turret that you could possibly encounter by level 9 (unless you're holding on to levels like SubterminalOptimization in his challenge games) is placed where there's an easy LOS break. So while it's slow, if you've planned badly enough that you're staring down two auto-turrets and you have no EMPs, no ranged weapons, no psi, and no taser, then you can just dance in and out of LOS and land hits one at a time. That would suck, but if you come to a fight unprepared you may occasionally need to either run away and come back with what you need, or else accept that you've got limited choices at the moment. Also, you don't actually need to fight any turrets in the early game, even without stealth. The one in the Junkyard Mutie map can be run past once you've killed the muties and dogs. The two in the Depot map with all the dogs can be hacked or you can find a secret passage to bypass them or you can take another route into the back part of that map. The two in the junkyard map with the robots can be skipped entirely - there's no need for you to ever go in or through that room unless you just want to. And if you want to, then you're volunteering for whatever trouble they cause.
We could give you more specific feedback if we knew what build you were playing. Melee, you've hinted? Is that knives? Sledge? Gloves?
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Can you detect Death Stalkers on Hard and below? On DOMINATING it's pretty much impossible regardless of goggles used.
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For those early turrets, even a melee character can pick up a ranged weapon and shoot at them, they are not very good at dodging.
So in a pinch, use any sniper rifle that you can find, they outrange the turrets. Better, use an energy weapon, and duck in and out of cover to fire it.
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Can you detect Death Stalkers on Hard and below? On DOMINATING it's pretty much impossible regardless of goggles used.
You definitely can, you just need high Perception,better if Paranoia and high level.
On Impossible I can see their silhouette quickly, so I can threw molotov, flare or Coocked Shot e.g. at them.
There is a trick - to see them first you need to detect them from as far as possible range, if your stealth is bad, and for Death Stalkers any stealth is bad.
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How about those machinegun auto-turrets at level 8-9?
You can avoid most of the Depot A turrets if you can't hack or kill them. The ones you really need to get rid of are close enough to cover to deal with them in pure melee fashion.
The ones that are hard to avoid are the 2 on the acid dogs map and the one in the corner of a corridor right beneath that area. I'm not sure what you mean by "pure melee fashion" but the hit-and-run strategy doesn't seem feasible with a 3 AGI character. If you came from the south side of the map like I did you'll need to deal with the dogs behind the turrets first too.
Someone suggested shooting a gun but that would take forever. Sniper rifles aren't exactly common, especially this early.
As for sneaking, don't see how that helps but that's not an option for my character either.
But where on hard difficulty do you need to beat 3 death stalkers + 1 crawler simultaneously at level 13? It's probably a side area or higher level quest you should return to later if you can't handle it yet. Or maybe it's easier to deal with them one by one than you think. The way I imagine your situation, it sounds like you were killing them with a silent weapon and relying on blind luck that nearby roaming crawlers don't come near enough to see what's happening. Were there any doors you could have closed? Other points of entry? Chokepoints for laying traps?
It was near Rail Crossing and might have been an area for higher levels but how does one even tell that? That's one of the issues I have - I like the freedom but at the same time players have no way of telling they're in over their heads. At least a visible enemy level would be nice, if not their stats. After all there's a map near SGS that's teeming with death stalkers and crawlers too, and that's the starting area so people don't expect to be ripped to shreads the minute they start destroying rocks in that vicinity. There's also no gradation from one map to the next. One moment you're fighting fodder, the next you're facing 10 ironheads in a long tunnel. So what happens is, you see one enemy, attack from afar and you have no idea that you'll be swarmed. So you're forced to F9 all the time just because you have no way of telling what's around the corner and how strong it is. You open a random door, they get the initiative, stun and make a quick work of you. How do you counter that? We need some tools at our disposal.
The way their sting-and-climb-away move works is that they just retreat to a random nearby spot outside your line of sight to restealth.
I'm not sure that's how it works. They seem to disappear right after they hit you, not when you lose sight of them. In any case it's not that easy to find them, especially in big cave maps. I usally just try to bump into them when I don't want to waste resources. If you anticipate they might be lurking around, just show yourself for a second, then run back and forth again. That usually beats their plan to attack you by a millisecond and you get to start the fight. They're rarely alone, so you might as well try to reveal all of them on your first turn.
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It was near Rail Crossing and might have been an area for higher levels but how does one even tell that? That's one of the issues I have - I like the freedom but at the same time players have no way of telling they're in over their heads. At least a visible enemy level would be nice, if not their stats.
If you are dying very often, it means you are over your head. Kinda obvious to me)
Level means almost nothing, it's not d:os2 or something like that. Every build have strength and weaknesses and every enemy plays to different weaknesses, for example, my crossbow character with Paranoia, high perception and high stealth can breeze though area infested with crawlers, since he can detect them way earlier than they detect him, can one hit them with snipe/aimed shot and his weapon is silent, meaning that when he shoots, he doesn't have to fear about every creature in the area rushing to see what was that noise. While a build with less detection, no stealth and loud weapon (many AR builds fall into that category) would have a lot more trouble in same situation. All the while, AR considered a better weapon than crossbow.
Learn the game, learn the enemy, learn your strengths and weaknesses. You know, improvise, adapt, overcome. Git gud, if you must.
How do you counter that? We need some tools at our disposal.
Plenty of tools to counter everything. Sometimes most of them can be even in one character.
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If you are dying very often, it means you are over your head. Kinda obvious to me)
That's exactly the problem. I dont' want F9 to be my best friend. We need more tools and more information so we don't need to reload every time we stumble into the wrong area. I know games have been relying on wikis lately but just some basic information would be nice. You never know what you're up against until it kills you a couple of times. Even then and even with the help of the wiki page some things are still uknown.
Level means almost nothing, it's not d:os2 or something like that. Every build have strength and weaknesses and every enemy plays to different weaknesses, for example, my crossbow character with Paranoia, high perception and high stealth can breeze though area infested with crawlers, since he can detect them way earlier than they detect him, can one hit them with snipe/aimed shot and his weapon is silent, meaning that when he shoots, he doesn't have to fear about every creature in the area rushing to see what was that noise. While a build with less detection, no stealth and loud weapon (many AR builds fall into that category) would have a lot more trouble in same situation. All the while, AR considered a better weapon than crossbow.
Learn the game, learn the enemy, learn your strengths and weaknesses. You know, improvise, adapt, overcome. Git gud, if you must.
Plenty of tools to counter everything. Sometimes most of them can be even in one character.
I did git gud. It's actually become way too easy. I can kill most enemies in 1-2 fist weapon hits but I still die just because there's absolutely nothing you can do when you enter a new area or room and they get the initiative. Shield can only help so much. I got the the best metal armor and still get OHKO'ed by frag grenades (even though my equipment gives me 100+ hp). There's definitely some balance issues at hand. It's the same with evasion. I got it as high as possible on 12 AGi character and granades were still my biggest nightmare.
"Plenty of tools to counter everything" you say but couldn't mention even one?
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I did git gud. It's actually become way too easy. I can kill most enemies in 1-2 fist weapon hits but I still die just because there's absolutely nothing you can do when you enter a new area or room and they get the initiative.
You seriously can't see the contradiction in this sentence?
"Plenty of tools to counter everything" you say but couldn't mention even one?
I could, but i won't.
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I did git gud. It's actually become way too easy. I can kill most enemies in 1-2 fist weapon hits but I still die just because there's absolutely nothing you can do when you enter a new area or room and they get the initiative.
You seriously can't see the contradiction in this sentence?
I mean in general it's too easy, with the exception of the moments mentioned. I support the idea that enemies should be able to do as much damage as me, that's where most games fail, but it would be nice if I could actually survive 1 enemy turn with the heaviest armor. That would probably fix the initiative problem.
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I did git gud. It's actually become way too easy. I can kill most enemies in 1-2 fist weapon hits but I still die just because there's absolutely nothing you can do when you enter a new area or room and they get the initiative.
You seriously can't see the contradiction in this sentence?
I mean in general it's too easy, with the exception of the moments mentioned. I support the idea that enemies should be able to do as much damage as me, that's where most games fail, but it would be nice if I could actually survive 1 enemy turn with the heaviest armor. That would probably fix the initiative problem.
Epeli did a great summary above, explaing about stealth and initiative.
As I see it, stealth is extremely useful. However, you are squishy in a stealth outfit, so you need to be able to prepare and ambush well.
If you have no stealth, you got basically two options if you want to live: very good initiative, or very hard skin.
If you have excellent initiative, you will go first, and do major damage and/or battlefield control.
If neither stealth or good initiative, you got to have great constitution, good HPs, good armor. Else, you will die. A telekinetic punch or electro-zap, X-bow critical, stealth knife carving of intestines, you have got to be able to take it.
In any case you got to make good use of terrain, especially without stealth. Use ventilation ducts, doorways, corners. Throw a grenade even without any skill, to lure enemies by the noise. Listen to sounds, set traps as a precaution for fallback if you can, and not be afraid to burn through expensive items. You need them to survive.
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Another way to deal with Death Crawlers is to use a Force Field (Psi power) to protect yourself during the stun. When I get hit by a Crawler, especially when it immediately disappears, I run to corner, wait one turn, and then surround myself with a force field. If I happen to have the feat that makes the force field last longer, this works even better. Either way, it protects me quite well while I'm stunned. Then I can heal and prepare to deal with the crawlers via traps, caltrops, fire, etc.
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I understand what you guys are saying but you don't seem to understand the underlying problem here.
Sure, stealth and high initiative might be able to help to a degree but that leaves only one viable character build. I say one because dex only/agi only characters lose the initiative battle most of the times. So basically only 10 agi 10 dex characters have a decent chance of winning it. Stealth depends on AGI so you can't really make up for the lack of the latter with stealth. They're all tied together (especially when you add the fact that you can't go without lockpicking if you don't want to skip half of the game) and thus at the end of the day your choice is brought down to the last couple of stat points if you're like me and don't want to abuse save scumming. It just feels very limiting.
Good constitution, good armor, evasion and dodge do close to nothing on higher difficulties. You still die in 1 turn (if not in one shot) just like you would with any other character build. There's no such thing as tanks in this game (on normal and above, never tried easy).
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Sure, stealth and high initiative might be able to help to a degree but that leaves only one viable character build. I say one because dex only/agi only characters lose the initiative battle most of the times. So basically only 10 agi 10 dex characters have a decent chance of winning it.
Does being able to finish DOMINATING pass as being "viable"? Because if it does, than you are dead wrong.
Good constitution, good armor, evasion and dodge do close to nothing on higher difficulties. You still die in 1 turn (if not in one shot) just like you would with any other character build. There's no such thing as tanks in this game (on normal and above, never tried easy).
Well, since you say so...
I mean, obviously it's not a problem with your skill, your knowledge of the game or your build, it's the game that it's at fault.
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Does being able to finish DOMINATING pass as being "viable"? Because if it does, than you are dead wrong.
Being able to finish? As I mentioned a couple of times I'm only talking about save-scumming-less playthroughs. Anything can be finished with enough reloads but that's not the point here. IMHO one should be able to finish the game without a single death if it was well balanced, hence the hardcore modes some similar crpgs offer.
Well, since you say so...
I mean, obviously it's not a problem with your skill, your knowledge of the game or your build, it's the game that it's at fault.
What does skill have to do with what I'm talking about? You max a certain defensive stat/skill and it still doesn't let you survive one turn where you lost the initiative, how is that a problem with my skill or knowledge? No matter what your build is or how high your initiative is, there will be times when you don't initiate the battle. Then you automatically lose even if you had all the knowledge in the world.
You've probably replayed the game too many times, anticipate all the enemies and take precautions but I'm talking from the position of a first-timer.
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Sure, stealth and high initiative might be able to help to a degree but that leaves only one viable character build.
Nah, there are plenty of builds that work fine on Dominating. You could put a measly 15 points into Guns and pick up Gunslinger and walk around with a pistol equipped, switching to your main weapon once combat starts. That's 7 effective Dex/Agi worth of initiative. You could get Paranoia for 5. Or you could tank up properly. I had no trouble tanking Death Stalkers as a super heavy sledge character in triple-plated armor. Regen Vest will heal you up without triggering that poisoning effect; Sturdy Vest will get you to health numbers high enough that you can just take the hit and fight back. You don't have to use a sledge to use heavy armor, no reason you couldn't have gloves/knives as well.
And all that is just assuming you want a Dominating viable melee build, there are obviously a bunch of others, and many of them don't need initiative to get through the Death Stalkers.
Good constitution, good armor, evasion and dodge do close to nothing on higher difficulties. You still die in 1 turn (if not in one shot) just like you would with any other character build. There's no such thing as tanks in this game (on normal and above, never tried easy).
Evasion and dodge may not do much, but you're just wrong about tanking. I don't think you could tank everything in the game (offhand, I imagine Emporion/Harpocrates, IRIS/ARKE, any place with lots of psi goliaths, and of course Tchort would all be tough or impossible to just straight up tank) but you can tank most things on Dominating if you want to. Get that resist up to 90% or so, walk around with a nice low-frequency shield, and there's not really much that'll bother you short of psi enemies or special encounters.
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- Heavy armor and evasion/dodge are polar opposites and both are equally viable when taking into account the builds they can support. (Avoidance is weaker than heavy armor, but comes with higher mobility/stealth/initiative potential to lessen the need for tanking.)
Evasion/dodge might be equally viable w/ Heavy armor on hard but this is simply not true on Dominating. I tested this extensively myself and I'm sorry to say the 30% global skill buff heavily penalizes Evasion/dodge build. When playing normally, your evasion/dodge will always lag behind npc weapon skills even if you max them every level. If you look at the return on investment of these 270 (135 for each) skill points they are simply not worth it.
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- Even if we assume high initiative was the only viable way to play (it isn't) that leaves a lot of viable builds, not just one.
- Dex only/agi only characters don't lose the initiative roll "most of the times", they win the majority. But to up the winrate to ~100%, you need dex, agi AND feats.
- Stealth is viable, if limited, with very little build focus (3 agi, skillpoints, armor set)
- Lockpicking is not required for anything except random lootboxes. It is a skill that can be skipped completely, but I don't recommend that to new players.
- Savescumming is not necessary. Although the game is not designed with permadeath in mind, skilled players often do hardcore runs as a challenge. I've even seen a streamer doing first-time hardcore run on the new DOMINATING difficulty.
- Honestly, CON does more on hard+. On easy/normal 3 CON gives enough HP buffer. Hard makes you think twice about dumping CON and HP gear is more valuable.
- Heavy armor and evasion/dodge are polar opposites and both are equally viable when taking into account the builds they can support. (Avoidance is weaker than heavy armor, but comes with higher mobility/stealth/initiative potential to lessen the need for tanking.)
I pointed out stealth because I thought you would like it better; all your troubles seemed to directly fixable with it. From that you went to thinking the player must always act first or die. That wasn't the intention and it's simply not true. I'm trying to empathise, to put myself in your position, but I just don't know where you're getting that whole "you die in 1 turn" thing from.
If you want help with your current build instead, you should share it in detail (character, equipment, what you are struggling with) because we don't really know why you're having such a hard time.
I'm having a hard time not dying in 1 turn. That's all I'm complaining about. I have to hide all the time and spam CC stuff instead of actually fighting. My melee skill is wasted just because I have no AP left for it after I disable everyone who can attack me. Now to address your points:
-What are these viable builds? Care to mention a couple? And I hope I made it clear that by viable I don't mean completing the game through save scumming. I'd like to see this streamer you're talking about, even though there's no way he can prove he hasn't reloaded a single time.
-I actually had a dex only character so I'm pretty sure when I'm telling you you lose the initiative roll most of the times when entering new area/room.
-Have you actually tried that? I don't think you'll be able to get away with it when entering new area where the enemies are near the entrance.
-Lockpicking actually provides you with much more than random box loot. You'll be strapped for money througout first half of the game and you'll lose the strategic advantage it often offers.
-There's no way a first-time player can complete a game without save-scumming. I don't even think a veteran player can finish a hardcore run on hard+.
-3 CON may give enough HP buffer but not enough resolve. You still die in 1 turn vs psi enemies. The difference between 3 CON and 10 CON on hard+ is too negligible to actually matter. You still die in 2 sniper aimshots or something like that.
-If I kept statistics on how often I got hit when I maxed evasion/dodge I think it would've fallen somewhere in the ballpark of 70%. Considering what 1 hit does to such a squishy character, how can that be a viable build?
So you disagree that you die in 1 turn regardless of your build? Can you record a short video then of you surviving 1 turn on the second floor of Emporion?
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Dude, here is my melee, Domination.
I can't say it's easy, but I can deal with large groups too, like incapacitate-->stun-->run-->return.
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Dude, here is my melee, Domination.
>bruce
>yellow/black jumpsuit
Nice.
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Dude, here is my melee, Domination.
>bruce
>yellow/black jumpsuit
Nice.
;D
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I have been saying this earlier but this thread just reaffirms my opinion that Death Stalkers are over the top. Ultimately the better solution is to nerf their stealth capability to a reasonable level so they can be detected and dealt with without the need for cheese and metagame knowledge.
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Dunno.
I did recently Protectorate Warehouse mission - 3-4 DS, 3 Con, no problem.
I even didn't use Uncanny Dodge in some cases.
You just need to intuitively wait-move to bump into DS after he bite you.
Then tazer, incapacitate or stun.
At least for melee.
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They resist tasers maybe 1/4 or 1/5 of the time for me; it's not too reliable.
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Dunno.
I did recently Protectorate Warehouse mission - 3-4 DS, 3 Con, no problem.
I even didn't use Uncanny Dodge in some cases.
You just need to intuitively wait-move to bump into DS after he bite you.
Then tazer, incapacitate or stun.
At least for melee.
Do you have a more detail explanation on "intuitively wait-move to bump in DX after he bite you?". It would be even better if you have a gameplay video.
Right now fight 3-4 DS, 3 con, dominating is a toss up for me. It would be amazing if what you said could be reproduce reliably.
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They attck not immediately. You retreat, use antidote, then just walk yo bump into them on a turn or next whe you should be stunned.
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They attck not immediately. You retreat, use antidote, then just walk yo bump into them on a turn or next whe you should be stunned.
Sorry mate but I'll believe it when I see it. When you are playing a 3 con char on Dominating you are close to death when you get hit by a DS. Depending on your gear, taking an antidote while being Hyperallergenic could be suicide. "Just walk yo bump into them" when facing multiple DS on top of all that seems off.
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Well, "everyone lies" isn't that productive.
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Well, "everyone lies" isn't that productive.
He is asking for evidence because going by numbers that we know what you describe is not a very efficient strategy. Pretty productive if you ask me. How about making a video with a 10 or so encounters with DS in a row using method you described? Unedited, of course. That would prove you right without doubt)
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This "we know" part is especially amazing....
If "you know" then I can't help.
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Dunno.
I did recently Protectorate Warehouse mission - 3-4 DS, 3 Con, no problem.
I even didn't use Uncanny Dodge in some cases.
You just need to intuitively wait-move to bump into DS after he bite you.
Then tazer, incapacitate or stun.
At least for melee.
Ok I did not see this last year and just recently played through the Protectorate Warehouse mission again on a stealth PSI/Sniper level 11 so I feel I can address this even a year later on the newest beta build. My Sniper had 7 agi, 10 per, maxed stealth with ninja tabi boots and stealth overcoat plus Paranoia plus 60% +/- plus cave hopper steak plus stealth generator. I did not even have 1! second before a Derp Stalker initiated combat regardless which vent I went through. I cannot initiate combat since it is on a CD when you move through the vent. There is not even time to place a single trap or throw a single flare. There was absolutely nothing I could do besides having 70 Persuasion and go through the front door.
Having now a dozen of mostly unfinished playthroughs on Autistic difficulty, I more than ever think that Derp Stalkers are shitty grossly inflated enemies, worse than any of the other newly introduced ones, and for some idiotic reason Derp Stalkers got the most powerful gamebreaking debuff, denying you the ability to recover in any fashion from their initial attack, while dishing out high damage. Even if you break the following stun with stuff like LoC you still have to wait 10 turns until the debuff is gone, during that time you can basically heal yourself only via regenerative vest. However at higher levels, 18+ they become manageable even for low con stealth characters though still very dangerous and painful to deal with. In fact so much that I try my best to avoid them completely on all of my characters, because they are simply no fun to deal with, period. At least the other new enemy types have some weakness I can deal with. Derp Stalkers? Not so much.
It is possible to completely avoid them until high level but requires quite a bit of meta knowledge. Now the problem is that for some retarded reason Styg thought he should throw Derp Stalkers as early as level 10 at characters, one when you go to seek out the Rathound King and four down the aforementioned Protectorate Warehouse. One already is enough to give you a world of hurt, and that is putting it mildly. Four on the other hand at that level is, for most builds, essentially suicide.
Furthermore this is completely moronic considering until that time YOU DO NOT SEE THE FUCKING BASE VERSION unlike any other critter. I see absolutely no reason whatsoever to have Derp Stalkers down in the Protectorate Warehouse cellar except to spite players. For a normal natural playthrough having 4 of them down there is basically playing Russian roulette unless you made your build specifically to counter them.
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Furthermore this is completely moronic considering until that time YOU DO NOT SEE THE FUCKING BASE VERSION unlike any other critter. I see absolutely no reason whatsoever to have Derp Stalkers down in the Protectorate Warehouse cellar
This has also struck me as a little bit excessive.
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Dunno.
I did recently Protectorate Warehouse mission - 3-4 DS, 3 Con, no problem.
I even didn't use Uncanny Dodge in some cases.
You just need to intuitively wait-move to bump into DS after he bite you.
Then tazer, incapacitate or stun.
At least for melee.
Ok I did not see this last year and just recently played through the Protectorate Warehouse mission again on a stealth PSI/Sniper level 11 so I feel I can address this even a year later on the newest beta build. My Sniper had 7 agi, 10 per, maxed stealth with ninja tabi boots and stealth overcoat plus Paranoia plus 60% +/- plus cave hopper steak plus stealth generator. I did not even have 1! second before a Derp Stalker initiated combat regardless which vent I went through. I cannot initiate combat since it is on a CD when you move through the vent. There is not even time to place a single trap or throw a single flare. There was absolutely nothing I could do besides having 70 Persuasion and go through the front door.
Having now a dozen of mostly unfinished playthroughs on Autistic difficulty, I more than ever think that Derp Stalkers are shitty grossly inflated enemies, worse than any of the other newly introduced ones, and for some idiotic reason Derp Stalkers got the most powerful gamebreaking debuff, denying you the ability to recover in any fashion from their initial attack, while dishing out high damage. Even if you break the following stun with stuff like LoC you still have to wait 10 turns until the debuff is gone, during that time you can basically heal yourself only via regenerative vest. However at higher levels, 18+ they become manageable even for low con stealth characters though still very dangerous and painful to deal with. In fact so much that I try my best to avoid them completely on all of my characters, because they are simply no fun to deal with, period. At least the other new enemy types have some weakness I can deal with. Derp Stalkers? Not so much.
It is possible to completely avoid them until high level but requires quite a bit of meta knowledge. Now the problem is that for some retarded reason Styg thought he should throw Derp Stalkers as early as level 10 at characters, one when you go to seek out the Rathound King and four down the aforementioned Protectorate Warehouse. One already is enough to give you a world of hurt, and that is putting it mildly. Four on the other hand at that level is, for most builds, essentially suicide.
Furthermore this is completely moronic considering until that time YOU DO NOT SEE THE FUCKING BASE VERSION unlike any other critter. I see absolutely no reason whatsoever to have Derp Stalkers down in the Protectorate Warehouse cellar except to spite players. For a normal natural playthrough having 4 of them down there is basically playing Russian roulette unless you made your build specifically to counter them.
I did these two areas a couple days ago on a crossbow build that had not yet invested much in stealth. I stopped putting points in at 40 for Ambush.
For the warehouse basement I enter stealth before dropping out of the vent. This way you are already still in stealth in the room and it takes a bit for the death stalkers to spot you. Run immediately straight down and through the double doors, and close them behind you. This almost always works allowing me to completely avoid them on the way in. If not I reload and try again.
On the way out, they always agro on me because they are near the double door. I throw an incendiary at my feet to get them to back off and run to the bottom right room. I already opened that vent on the way in. To get out, while in combat I flashbang the DS, restealth then exit via the vent on my next turn.
Worse case scenario, going in and out takes 2 or 3 reloads. Last character before this run, I instead just dropped down from the North room again, and quick tinkered a bear trap in front of me and then set another before the DS showed up. It was an AR build and he dropped an incendiary at his feet and was able to burst them down and keep them either burning or stuck in a bear trap.
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I did not even have 1! second before a Derp Stalker initiated combat regardless which vent I went through. I cannot initiate combat since it is on a CD when you move through the vent. There is not even time to place a single trap or throw a single flare. There was absolutely nothing I could do besides having 70 Persuasion and go through the front door.
Did you try going into turn-based mode before you went through the vent? It only takes 25AP. If you pop Adrenaline on the other side, that's enough AP to throw three grenades - incendiary, whatever, and flashbang, for example. The first two will establish a safe area around you, revealing any hidden creatures, and the flashbang will give you the upper hand on the following turn.
Since your stealth isn't high enough to matter, did you swap out armor and wear a Regenerative Vest? Regen Vests tick their healing without triggering Hyperallergenic.
Do you have Quick Tinkering? Lay down a bear trap. Death Stalkers are melee so all you have to do is be one tiny fraction of a tile out of their reach and you're safe.
You're playing psi, huh? Did you try going through the gate and simply setting up a Force Field? The Death Stalkers will see you through it and come stand right next to it. Since you initiated turn-based before you went through the vent (you did that, right?) you'll have initiative when the force field drops, four turns later. And you'll have had 4 turns to see them, so you'll be able to target them right away.
Did you use Enrage? Death Stalkers don't have an impressively high resolve, so theyre very susceptible. While they're killing each other, you kill them, too.
Did you try putting up mirror images before you started combat? The Death Stalkers don't have machine sight so they'll hit those images and miss you.
Did you use Irongut before combat, so that you could take antidotes in case you needed to drop a few stacks of poison, and still take only a tiny bit of damage from Hyperallergenic?
Sounds like you're just unwilling to do the things that would give you the upper hand. You complain a lot about the Death Stalkers, but they're really very easy. Maybe you should play better.
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I did not even have 1! second before a Derp Stalker initiated combat regardless which vent I went through. I cannot initiate combat since it is on a CD when you move through the vent. There is not even time to place a single trap or throw a single flare. There was absolutely nothing I could do besides having 70 Persuasion and go through the front door.
Did you try going into turn-based mode before you went through the vent? It only takes 25AP. If you pop Adrenaline on the other side, that's enough AP to throw three grenades - incendiary, whatever, and flashbang, for example. The first two will establish a safe area around you, revealing any hidden creatures, and the flashbang will give you the upper hand on the following turn.
Since your stealth isn't high enough to matter, did you swap out armor and wear a Regenerative Vest? Regen Vests tick their healing without triggering Hyperallergenic.
Do you have Quick Tinkering? Lay down a bear trap. Death Stalkers are melee so all you have to do is be one tiny fraction of a tile out of their reach and you're safe.
You're playing psi, huh? Did you try going through the gate and simply setting up a Force Field? The Death Stalkers will see you through it and come stand right next to it. Since you initiated turn-based before you went through the vent (you did that, right?) you'll have initiative when the force field drops, four turns later. And you'll have had 4 turns to see them, so you'll be able to target them right away.
Did you use Enrage? Death Stalkers don't have an impressively high resolve, so theyre very susceptible. While they're killing each other, you kill them, too.
Did you try putting up mirror images before you started combat? The Death Stalkers don't have machine sight so they'll hit those images and miss you.
Did you use Irongut before combat, so that you could take antidotes in case you needed to drop a few stacks of poison, and still take only a tiny bit of damage from Hyperallergenic?
Sounds like you're just unwilling to do the things that would give you the upper hand. You complain a lot about the Death Stalkers, but they're really very easy. Maybe you should play better.
In essence, cheese the shit out of the game, scrub, is what you are trying to tell me. /yawn
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daily reminder sykar is a buttmad troll nigger, never give him attention
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daily reminder sykar is a buttmad troll nigger, never give him attention
And yet you did, retard, and as usual without having an argument, like all the other dipshits.
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Well, fwiw, my experience so far feels like these buggers are overpowered.
I've found them in areas where they seem to be just vastly more dangerous than other critters and humans. So far, I've avoided them altogether because I haven't really "needed" anything from their screens and I've had alternate paths I could take to get past them. And now that I've gained a good amount of levels, I'm going back to explore their areas just to make sure there's nothing of use. Even then, I'm not always able to spot them so I can attack them, so I just run away and hope I survive long enough to finish exploring.
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Well, fwiw, my experience so far feels like these buggers are overpowered.
I've found them in areas where they seem to be just vastly more dangerous than other critters and humans. So far, I've avoided them altogether because I haven't really "needed" anything from their screens and I've had alternate paths I could take to get past them. And now that I've gained a good amount of levels, I'm going back to explore their areas just to make sure there's nothing of use. Even then, I'm not always able to spot them so I can attack them, so I just run away and hope I survive long enough to finish exploring.
Crawlers are quite weak *if* you can gain vision on them; they're only strong if players do not actively 'defend' against them.
Most of the opponents in the game are can be mitigated via passive defense, which Stalkers can't be. Probably why Stalkers draw so much hate.
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I'm playing on Normal. I had two delete my first two characters at around level 10 because I generalized too much and the game difficulty spikes up really hard around there.
I read several build and gear recommendations on the wiki to make a more solid 3rd character. I'm playing a crossbow expert and I have to say that at level 12 trying to find the Rathound King I've encountered my first Deathstalker. I've tried my usual bag of tricks on organics (setting it on fire, knee capping it, etc.) and this thing feels like it was meant for level 20s.
It regenerates at a good clip so you cannot retreat and come finish it off later. It never misses and it prevents you from using medicine. It hits STUPID hard. After dying about 20x I logged off the game.
There were other instant-deaths I've encountered along the way, but they were avoidable. This thing is between me and the mission I'm supposed to be on. I recall on my way to the junkyard veering one map off course and being instantly killed by a single shot. Initiative started, I lost, bad guy shot me 1x - instantly dead - on normal. I just left that area for later - no big deal.
This Death Stalker, however, is orders of magnitude more difficult than anything I've encountered. Flares don't seem to reveal it. Fire works - OK, but he runs off so fast I can't kill it and I only have about a 30% chance to hit him despite max perception and crossbow skill and a scoped crossbow with a super string.
I can see many players moving on to another game from this one encounter. I'll try the ideas mentioned earlier, but this thing is flat out stupid. I've adapted to the earlier challenges, studied up a bit (generally not indicative of good game design) and read the wiki to get past previous problem areas. This one is a show stopper.
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I was thinking about sitting on this info because I don't want Styg to nerf it but ...
Styg did implemented a hard counter to Death Stalker since the introduction to expedition. Lot of players apparently did not fully explore all available options (there's a recent post on how boots are currently useless - absolutely not! Which is proven below.)
Infused Sea Wyrm Scales/Leper Serpent Skin leather armor + Infused Sea Wyrm Scales//Leper Serpent Skin boots. Using these very heavy armor set, at some point you'll become immune to knife attack, at top quality you'll be immune to melee attack. This have some interesting implications which will completely changed a lot of meta once you achieve that point (which I did on my current spear run). I did some testings against Death Stalker wearing this 100% melee immune armor set and it's possible to learn their behavior. However I can confidently say it's not possible to use this behavior knowledge to 100% counter Death Stalker or even effectively counter Death Stalker using this knowledge alone for some char.
It's much easier with Skinner but possible if you tediously farm Sea Wyrm/Leper for high quality drop (don't forget to exterminate Native too for their leather loot).
Again I like to remind everyone the light from marsh honey can reveal stealth enemies.
And Styg, if you are reading this, please please please for the love of god don't nerf them. These armor set is far from OP as they are:
very high in armor penalty - with all its associated con
still weak against sniper, xbow and psi even with top quality kelvar coat + top q shield
very hard to obtain without Skinner and/or tedious farming, oh man super steel farming alone on my current run was tedious as hell. Sea Wyrm rusting debuff is so god damn annoying and financially costly on dominating.