Underrail Forum
Underrail => General => Topic started by: Hammer Wizard on July 18, 2021, 03:09:20 pm
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https://drive.google.com/file/d/1n8x2359ECRNZj4cYhlU7r5GW6GHOeTZp/view?usp=sharing
I'd like to know your opinion on this topic, if you guys agree with me and something I have missed or ideas that could change or be mentioned
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hear! hear!
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In a game where burst builds, nades, TM, firearmpistols, e pistols, shotguns, plasma beam, traps, fist, and sniper exist in their current state it makes little sense to nerf tichrome hammer. Everything I mentioned has greater Kill/damage potential than tichrome hammer with the exception of TM but it has its own reasons for being nerfed way before tichrome hammer.
Inb4 all those things get nerfed too
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^ Hammers exists in many contexts. It totally makes sense to nerf one hammer because other hammer types underperform in comparison. Even if ARs are stronger.
I don't want to nerf Tichrome hammers btw.
That being said:
1. Leftover action points can be well spent. Non-tichrome hammer users can consume one medicine, or move one tile. This is significant advantage. Sure, having 1 more attack is better, BUT we are comparing 1 more attack to higher damage AND 8 AP points.
2. You have two weapon slots. You can and will use variety of weapons that fits your needs, in particular: fast one and strong one.
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Not everything has to be nerfed. Going around with the nerfhammer bonking everything that seems fun and strong is not a good way to balance a game, just look at games like Darkest Dungeon (developers nerfing nearly every single strategy people found, not even giving the player party the corpse mechanic to maintain formation etc.). If people managed to squeeze 3 hits out of a sledgehammer without spamming adrenaline then they should reap the fruits of their labor for finding that out, it's not like the average player goes to the forums for the most minmaxed shit possible, and the game shouldn't be balanced around what minmaxers find.
Other posters also made good points; Managing to squeeze a third hit leaves you with a tiny amount of AP that you can't do anything with, while there are far stronger builds one can make.
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I think a nerf to tichrome hammers makes sense. Right now tichrome hammers are the best in class for crafted hammers reguardless of build, since going from 2 hits to 3 hits is effectively a 50% damage increase. The other hammers either have increased crit chance, crit damage and spread, or higher stun chance and smaller spread, which is much worse than tichrome. Tichrome will probably swap ap costs with super steel, since super steel is lighter than tichrome, but right now has a higher ap cost than tichrome.
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Tichrome is less AP than Super Steel on all melee weapons, nothing special there.
I think Tichrome may just need a more significant damage difference
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>I think a nerf to tichrome hammers makes sense.
No, it doesn't.
>Right now tichrome hammers are the best in class for crafted hammers reguardless of build
That's outright a lie, a full tungsten tank wont use tabis because that would leave him under-armored, TiChrome is just a build used by lightweight nimble hammerers wearing leather, or maybe nimble cans, but it's not the best hammer, tungsten is.
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Going from 2 hits to 3 being a 50% damage increase is only true if nothing else changes. Tichrome hammers do less damage than tungsten ones, especially on crits. A tichrome hammer is useless to a tank. Even if you were playing a light armored one, if it were crit-focused you still wouldn't use tichrome except against numerous weaker enemies. Tichrome is only better if you're going less than full-tank and aren't crit-focused.
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You only lose 40% crit damage and a bit of maximum damage going from tungsten to tichrome with crit power, and tichrome has higher crit chance than tungsten. Tichrome still outclasses tungsten even on crit hammer builds, but crits on hammer are kinda pointless since you kill everything weaker than Skaaders in a single hit, even on dominating.
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Even if we go with the premise that Tichrome out classes the others it seems more appropriate to just make the other hammers more appealing. I don’t see the point in nerfing something that is incredibly far from gamebreaking.
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>You only lose 40% crit damage
Which is a huge deal if you want to crit bosses, and once again, there's no reason for a tin can to use TiChrome instead of Tungsten
> a bit of maximum damage going from tungsten to tichrome
Which can make the difference between one hitting an enemy and leaving them alive with 5% HP
>and tichrome has higher crit chance than tungsten
This doesnt outweight the cons of using TiChrome over Tungsten
>Tichrome still outclasses tungsten even on crit hammer builds
No it bloody doesnt, Tungsten has higher damage and high crit damage, crit chance only becomes relevant against highly armored, high HP enemies, which you should be using Balor's anyways.
>since you kill everything weaker than Skaaders in a single hit, even on dominating.
Only Balor's can do that, Tungsten often needs to 2 hit without crits, whereas TiChrome often needs 3.
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Lets say, hypothetically, your level 24 with 15 strength and have 251 effective melee skill. You have q155 hammers made of Tichrome and Tungsten. Tichrome has 190-297 damage, while tungsten has 190-342. You have the tabis setup with tichrome for 3 attacks per turn with tichrome. Tichrome nets you 570-891 total damage, while tungsten gets you 380-684 total damage, assuming no crits. With crits, crit power, and no other sources of crit damage, tichrome gets you 1040-1782 total damage, while tungsten gets you 912-1642 damage. It’s still better to crit bosses with tichrome. This isn’t even factoring in electroshock generators, which definitively puts tichrome over tungsten. Electroshock generators have static damage based on quality, so the only thing that matters is getting more hits. Q150 electroshock has 75-150 electric damage, which most enemies don’t resist. Electroshock also solves the problem of letting enemies live with 5% hp, since you can just hit an adjacent enemy and have the shock kill them, or lower the health of adjacent enemies so they can be 1 hit killed with electroshock. Once you get a few stacks of taste for blood you can consistently 1 hit kill weaker enemies for more stacks to take down tougher enemies, and tichrome lets you get 3 melee kills per turn compared to 2 kills with tungsten. Tichrome performs better against single targets, multiple targets, weak targets, strong targets, and with/without crits, making it the best in class for every scenario.
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^ Analysis based on optimal attacks achievable should always be treated with huge dose of "yeah, but..."
Don't you use Adrenaline Shots? 70 AP is optimal for 2 Tungsten and 2 Tichrome attacks and 35 AP gives 1 Tungsten and 1 Tichrome.
...and then you throw a grenade and whole plan goes to drain.
3 AP lower cost is huge advantage but it does not universally give you 1 additional attack.
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17 str is the breaking point for Balor’s hammer, so at 15 Str+ adrenaline you would use Balor’s over Tungsten. There are also some longer fights where fatigue can be dangerous (like native raids), so most of the time you won’t be under the effects of adrenaline. Grenades have cooldown, so while grenades are on cooldown Tichrome will usually get the extra attack unless you are suppressed or tackled.
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Adrenaline gives on demand ability to kill more enemies now, when most of them are around and dangerous. It definitely should be used during prolonged fights. The fatigue turns won't really be toughter because there will be less enemies alive to harm you.
You can reduce grenades cooldown with Grenadier, LTI, you can alternate throwing damaging/flashbangs, you can consume medicine, there's plenty of opportunities to spend AP every turn instead of boinking.
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Adrenaline gives on demand ability to kill more enemies now, when most of them are around and dangerous. It definitely should be used during prolonged fights. The fatigue turns won't really be toughter because there will be less enemies alive to harm you.
You can reduce grenades cooldown with Grenadier, LTI, you can alternate throwing damaging/flashbangs, you can consume medicine, there's plenty of opportunities to spend AP every turn instead of boinking.
Your a hammer build, not a grenade/TM build. Grenades and TM are a crutch, and I wouldn’t be surprised if they got nerfed along with tichrome hammers.
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Nah, you are Hammer + whatever you want build. Most builds use grenades, mines, medicines, tasers, throwing nets, caltrops and/or spells, in whatever combinations they desire. Mr thick hammer head still has 2 utility slots and innervation spots for a reason. If you decided to be pure boinker, that's fine too, and your analysis fits there much better.
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Now that's interesting; it's best to have a tungsten and a tichrome, whether you wear boots or tabis. I never considered using both at once.
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I would even say that the OP's document overestimates the TiChrome's ability to fight multiple enemies. Unless those are particularly weak enemies like locusts or burrower spaw, i always preferred to use either tungsten or preferably Balor regardless of wherever i am light or heavy armor.
As it has been metioned, 10 AP leftover for regular hammers is very useful for various purposes, like using medicine or moving, but what is most important, 10 can be used to recharge your hammer. All the calculation of comparative damage seem to assume that you can just attack continuously, but that is not true. With electroshock and core being of relatively similar quality, it take around 4-6 swing to deplete your hammer's battery, which means that TiChrome hammer had to be reacharged on average every 2 turns, so in reality we are not talking about 3 attacks per turn, but more like 5 attacks per 2 turns if we are keeping up electroshock. For regular hammers this is not as problematic, since you can just recharge with those leftover 10 AP. If we also account for Pummel that costs 10 AP too, then it's even less favorable comparison for TiChrome. around 15 attacks over 6 turns for TiChrome vs 12 attacks + 2 pummels (they give half of base mechanical damage but full electrical damage, so i don't know proper rate of conversion between pummel and regular attack) over 6 turns for Tungsten. And yes, you can lower the AP cost of Pummel, but that has an opportunity cost that regular 20 AP hammer does not have.
I have playes a lot of hammerers and in the end i mostly prefer 20 AP ones especially Balor.
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>I would even say that the OP's document overestimates the TiChrome's ability to fight multiple enemies
I'm really not, see pic related.
Balor's took a painful long time to kill all of this and had to rely on grenades for spawn control.
With TiChrome tabi this encounter would have been a breeze, but I ignored tichrome tabi and got punished by it, kind of
Turns out at 95% mech damage reduction multiple hit attacks hurt like a fuck
And yes TiChrome tabi hammers are good yet so resource intensive.
Like a high maintenance girlfriend.
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>I would even say that the OP's document overestimates the TiChrome's ability to fight multiple enemies
I'm really not, see pic related.
Balor's took a painful long time to kill all of this and had to rely on grenades for spawn control.
With TiChrome tabi this encounter would have been a breeze, but I ignored tichrome tabi and got punished by it, kind of
Turns out at 95% mech damage reduction multiple hit attacks hurt like a fuck
And yes TiChrome tabi hammers are good yet so resource intensive.
Like a high maintenance girlfriend.
>Unless those are particularly weak enemies like locusts or burrower spaw
I mean, that's more or less what i was talking about. Yes, in this case TiChrome is noticeably better. Basically, if you kill it in one swing of TiChrome, TiChrome is better, absolutely. But that is not what i experience in most situation. For example, for beach attacks where there are plenty of invaders, i would take either Balor or Tungsten.
Even so, i would take both, Balor in one hand and TiChrome in another for this particular fight on your screenshot. TiChrome is better vs spawns, but it is also worse vs burrower warriors.
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>Unless those are particularly weak enemies like locusts or burrower spaw
I mean, that's more or less what i was talking about. Yes, in this case TiChrome is noticeably better. Basically, if you kill it in one swing of TiChrome, TiChrome is better, absolutely. But that is not what i experience in most situation. For example, for beach attacks where there are plenty of invaders, i would take either Balor or Tungsten.
Even so, i would take both, Balor in one hand and TiChrome in another for this particular fight on your screenshot. TiChrome is better vs spawns, but it is also worse vs burrower warriors.
This - you got 2 slots and Electroshock TiChrome would have made it a breeze with low HP numerous enemies. In such sircumstances, AOE is king. Or put a shield up and throw a molly under your feet 😆