Underrail Forum
Underrail => General => Topic started by: Twiglard on October 15, 2017, 11:09:58 pm
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Hey,
I want to share my ultimate cheese against Carnifex.
1) craft a napalm grenade
2) get a flashbang
Now, the fight:
a) If you get initiative, drop the incendiary on Carnifex. It's great if he starts burning but it's not 100% necessary. Why? See below.
The AI starts glitching out and performs non-optimally. Carnifex will run all around the napalm taking around half of his HP.
If he starts burning, just burst him to death. You got a few turns, it's easy and enough.
For bonus cheese dosage, drop a flashbang he doesn't resist, then do a knee shot. It's over by then.
b) Carnifex starts, drop the incendiary at your feet
First off, you must survive the initial volley. You'll be netted for a few turns.
Drop the incendiary right at your feet. This depends on Carnifex burning. You must manage surviving the announcer after Carni dies, but the incendiary is still burning. This is actually pretty hard... Anti-heat gear will help obviously but it depends.
You may also drop a flashbang at your feet if Carni doesn't burn. YMMV.
You can also squeeze the incendiary at the right place so it affects him only. I haven't tried that.
If (a) and Carni starts burning, he's done for.
Vae Victis!
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Carnifex thread?
My crossbow sniper beat him by surviving his first turn, then moving a bit and throwing crawler caltrops at his feet. Kept running from him until the poison kicked in (my character had a lot of move points), then snipe/aim shot.
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How do you hit him reliably? My SMG dude had 40% hit chance even with goggles and the like. Even if he had +accuracy modules that'd make 55% tops at level 20-ish.
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Tazer? Dude....
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An SMG user doesn't really need to have a very high chance to hit as they put out so many rounds per turn, but yeah, just kill his evasion.
Oddly I've had a reasonably easy time killing him with a pistol user, as Gunslinger usually lets you init before him. If you win initiative he's generally just screwed. Also had a pretty easy time killing him with any metal armour wearer, as he typically deals single digit damage per attack against them.
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Oddly I've had a reasonably easy time killing him with a pistol user, as Gunslinger usually lets you init before him. If you win initiative he's generally just screwed. Also had a pretty easy time killing him with any metal armour wearer, as he typically deals single digit damage per attack against them.
Simple. The trouble with him is that he is very fast, being able to reach you on the first turn and get a lot of attacks on you, while also throwing a net to immobilize, using Yell to debuff your combat skills and being able to incapacitate you due to Cheap Shots feat. He also has high initiative, so it's easy for him to go first and if he does, your ability to fight him decreases dramatically (given that you surive first round, which is not always the case). He also likes to use morphine to further decrease your ability to damage him. That is why pistol users actually perform very well compared to many other builds, because one of their few advantages is possibility of having very high initiative. If you go first, he is not that tough actually.
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Tazer? Dude....
The taser is weird in this game; you can't buy them ever, and I never found one in the wild, but you can craft them right from the beginning, they auto hit, and while sometimes tough enemies resist it, they work most of the time. It's basically a "remove enemy from battle for 1 round" button that only costs like 10 AP. I think there should be a melee attack check or something.
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Entire topic dedicated to cheesing Carnifex and not a single mention of Quick Tinkering?
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One tactic that I've found effective for cheesing the initiative roll is mashing enter just after the autosave. This manually enters combat just before it triggers, automatically giving you initiative.
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Entire topic dedicated to cheesing Carnifex and not a single mention of Quick Tinkering?
I'm not sure that you can call it cheese. It's a powerful ability, that is certain, but you also need to win initiative or survive first round and not be entangled, which are the main hurdles when fighting Carnifex
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I've never done a psi playthrough, maybe I should try before Styg nerfs it all to oblivion. :D Honestly though, every time I encounter an enemy that uses one of the abilities that ignore all defenses, I die a little inside. It's aggravating.
But back to the taser, the 3-turn cooldown is more than enough to prevent it from being OP in the player's hands. But if there ever comes a day when Styg decides to give it to enemies as well, I'll be the first one screaming for nerfs.
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But if there ever comes a day when Styg decides to give it to enemies as well, I'll be the first one screaming for nerfs.
In that case, shouldn't you be screaming already? Or have you never stood next to a sentry bot?
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In that case, shouldn't you be screaming already? Or have you never stood next to a sentry bot?
Uh, apparently I haven't, not on the enemy turn at least. I've only played with different ranged builds, though, and as far as I remember the bots always either shoot back or launch a flashbang, instead of trying to use the taser.
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Let's compare that with psi buttons. "For 0 AP cost (http://www.underrail.com/wiki/index.php?title=Premeditation), all enemies (http://www.underrail.com/wiki/index.php?title=Locus_of_Control) are removed from combat for 3 turns (http://www.underrail.com/wiki/index.php?title=Mental_Breakdown) oh and by the way your next attack against them is doubled lol" and you think taser needs nerfing? :P
Don't you dare touch my psi, evil moderator person >:(
::Continues to headbang to "Firestarter" while running around as a pillar of flame::
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Heh, psi is only getting better with Temporal Manipulation. Besides, Styg already nerfed it to oblivion back in alpha! :P Yup, we're living in a post-psinerf era. If you can imagine playing psi without having to pay attention to psi costs or range, that's what it was like. Pure psi is still OP once you get the hang of it, but the current form with tiny psi pool and regen is more interesting to play. Now if only we could have Mind Darts put back into the game...
I do remember when the psi pill had no health cost (I think that was only added in closed beta/1.0 release), during the last months of alpha. You could plink away at doppelgangers with Neural Overload without any skill investment, and that helped a lot at making you feel like you weren't totally powerless against them... Even if the actual effectiveness of 0 skill Neural Overload in that role is pretty nonexistant.
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It's basically a "remove enemy from battle for 1 round" button that only costs like 10 AP. I think there should be a melee attack check or something.
Let's compare that with psi buttons. "For 0 AP cost (http://www.underrail.com/wiki/index.php?title=Premeditation), all enemies (http://www.underrail.com/wiki/index.php?title=Locus_of_Control) are removed from combat for 3 turns (http://www.underrail.com/wiki/index.php?title=Mental_Breakdown) oh and by the way your next attack against them is doubled lol" and you think taser needs nerfing? :P
Taser frankly does still need it, even if psi might need it more. I've never used psi, personally, though I know how bullshit psi-using enemies can be. They should exist out in the world, at least.
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Taser frankly does still need it, even if psi might need it more.
I don't think so. Disabling an enemy for 1 turn once every 3 turns for 10 AP is useful, but not so powerful that you need to nerf it. Flashbang for example can disable a group of enemies for 3 turns once every 8 turns (and you can take two feats to make it 4 turns) for 15 AP and with shaded metal helmet you can just drop it under your feet with 100% accuracy. Both are very useful utilities that can help you to deal with tough situations, but neither is overpowered.
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I think the stuns are pretty balanced in principle.
Taser: low AP cost, cannot miss, Fortitude Check
Dirty Kick: medium AP cost, can miss, no Fortitude Check
Electrokinesis: high AP cost, cannot miss, no Fortitude Check (or it's very hard to resist it)
However despite this intial appearance of balance, Dirty Kick kinda sucks though compared to a Taser for having lots of less obvious weaknesses:
- uses up a whole feat slot instead of a few skill points
- much bigger cooldown, no less than double, and very high quality infused boots can merely reverse this instead of going further
- mechanical damage is much more likely than electrical to be fully absorbed by human enemies' armor, preventing the stun
- does not work on mechs at all
After all that the fact that it can still miss and has a higher AP cost than a Taser kinda gets on your nerves.
I only used Dirty Kick for my String Lord crossbowman because I absolutely needed all the utility slots free for different types of elemental bolts, I definitely didn't enjoy the numerous drawbacks it had over Tasers.
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It's basically a "remove enemy from battle for 1 round" button that only costs like 10 AP. I think there should be a melee attack check or something.
Let's compare that with psi buttons. "For 0 AP cost (http://www.underrail.com/wiki/index.php?title=Premeditation), all enemies (http://www.underrail.com/wiki/index.php?title=Locus_of_Control) are removed from combat for 3 turns (http://www.underrail.com/wiki/index.php?title=Mental_Breakdown) oh and by the way your next attack against them is doubled lol" and you think taser needs nerfing? :P
Taser is merely an utility that anyone who invested in a few electronic skill can craft and use, the psi combo you compared too needs to spend 2 feats and make minimal investement in many area (will, intelligence, thought control)
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I think it's its "never miss" ability that feels OP.
I think it could calculate chance to hit like usual melee with like +50% chnace to hit.
Also, I poorly understand what changes it could bring.
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There's already a Fortitude check so you can still "miss", having both miss chance and fortitude check would be too much, if anything the Fortitude check could be made more difficult to win with high-level Tasers making that easier, but then again too much unreliability on something that can save your life (1 turn stun) also sucks, so I would just leave it alone / slightly increase AP cost.
What I don't like is how poor Dirty Kick is at being integrated into a build as the quick stun option compared to the Taser, if you don't want to give a quick slot to the Taser because you need it for other things, like grenades for a thrower or bolts for a bower.
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Killed Balor for one turn with ith help of Tazer.
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It's basically a "remove enemy from battle for 1 round" button that only costs like 10 AP. I think there should be a melee attack check or something.
Let's compare that with psi buttons. "For 0 AP cost (http://www.underrail.com/wiki/index.php?title=Premeditation), all enemies (http://www.underrail.com/wiki/index.php?title=Locus_of_Control) are removed from combat for 3 turns (http://www.underrail.com/wiki/index.php?title=Mental_Breakdown) oh and by the way your next attack against them is doubled lol" and you think taser needs nerfing? :P
2 Feats on long CDs are needed:
Premediation (level 6 feat, 5 turn CD)
Locus of Control (level 14 feat, 15 turns CD)
Mental Breakdown which costs quite a bit even with the 50% reduction from Premeditation, 30 to be precise.
Flashbangs are on much shorter CDs than Locus of Control and are also cheaper to manufacture/buy on top of being fairly abundant usually. Tazers cost almost nothing it suffices to use leftover materials. Even at very high levels you might deal like 25-30 damage with them.
Also the bonus damage applies to mental attacks only of which there are two: Bilocation and Neural Overload. I guess if you want to you can fear him for twice the amount of time but they run very fast and very far away from you...
I think the stuns are pretty balanced in principle.
Taser: low AP cost, cannot miss, Fortitude Check
Dirty Kick: medium AP cost, can miss, no Fortitude Check
Electrokinesis: high AP cost, cannot miss, no Fortitude Check (or it's very hard to resist it)
However despite this intial appearance of balance, Dirty Kick kinda sucks though compared to a Taser for having lots of less obvious weaknesses:
- uses up a whole feat slot instead of a few skill points
- much bigger cooldown, no less than double, and very high quality infused boots can merely reverse this instead of going further
- mechanical damage is much more likely than electrical to be fully absorbed by human enemies' armor, preventing the stun
- does not work on mechs at all
After all that the fact that it can still miss and has a higher AP cost than a Taser kinda gets on your nerves.
I only used Dirty Kick for my String Lord crossbowman because I absolutely needed all the utility slots free for different types of elemental bolts, I definitely didn't enjoy the numerous drawbacks it had over Tasers.
Electrokinesis can be resisted by organic targets, mechanical/electrically powered enemies cannot save against it because they receive a different debuff short circuited. It costs a good chunk of AP and PSI though and the stun lasts 1 round only. It is also not advisable to be used when you fight alongside allies.
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The taser is cool, but if you play Ironman and rely on it to stun a powerful melee enemy... they will resist, I guarantee you.
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Maybe it is possible for a monster to resist Electrokinesis with their Fortitude but I've never seen it happen, either they can't get stunned at all or Electrokinesis will stun them is my experience.
Any word on Dirty Kick being made to fit a little better in the stun pantheon? I don't really want to use it anymore outside of dedicated melee builds, which is sad since the "can use even if holding ranged weapons" aspect suggests you should go for it in hybrid builds, but it sucks too much compared to the other stun options, mainly because of the CD.
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Can fleshbags resist it while taking the damage? As far as I know, it stuns if it deals damage.
Ancient Rathounds definitely resist the electrokinesis stun, at least on Dominating difficulty. They seem completely immune to stuns, in fact, which makes handling them a bit of a puzzle for low-output builds like mine. If they would just burn, it would be much simpler but they're implacable and unshakeable.
If immunity is different to resistance here, then I've missed the point. Sorry, if so ^_^
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Can fleshbags resist it while taking the damage? As far as I know, it stuns if it deals damage.
Ancient Rathounds definitely resist the electrokinesis stun, at least on Dominating difficulty. They seem completely immune to stuns, in fact, which makes handling them a bit of a puzzle for low-output builds like mine. If they would just burn, it would be much simpler but they're implacable and unshakeable.
If immunity is different to resistance here, then I've missed the point. Sorry, if so ^_^
They have always been immune to stun and flashbang even before the experimental patch. Bear trap is the way to go but if you don't have quick tinkering than try caltrops/toxic gas grenades.
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They have always been immune to stun and flashbang even before the experimental patch. Bear trap is the way to go but if you don't have quick tinkering than try caltrops/toxic gas grenades.
Ah. The much lower enemy health on Hard (and the substantial rarity of finding Ancient Rathounds) meant I didn't have any strong memories of trouble with them. I must have forgotten that they weren't stunnable.
I do have Quick Tinkering, indeed. I'm finding that I have to have a whole lot more combat-relevant feats on Dominating than on Hard. A crafter build is a little lacking given that it only looks like I'm going to be able to afford two crafting feats. Still, Dominating is an enjoyably difficult experience with only very few "Aw, bull@#$%" moments.
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Heh, psi is only getting better with Temporal Manipulation.
It should have a Finger of Death spell. Here's a description in its morbidity.
Target goes back in time and strangles itself with the umbilical cord. The target character disappears, is replaced by a floating fetus. The fetus goes dark and then violet. The fetus disappears.
Please? ;) Mostly not serious.