Underrail Forum

Underrail => Development Log => Topic started by: Styg on December 08, 2017, 12:16:44 pm

Title: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: Styg on December 08, 2017, 12:16:44 pm
Hi guys, we are releasing a new major update of the base game on the experimental branch. If everything goes as planned, we'll be releasing it to the main branch as well soon.

To play experimental branch on Steam, you right click the game in your library and go to "Betas" tab. To do so on GOG, you select the game and choose More->Settings. Make sure you don't override all your live version saves just in case something goes horribly wrong.

We have new creatures, items and feats.

(http://underrail.com/images/DevLog/Creatures/Devlog-Crawler.gif)(http://underrail.com/images/DevLog/Creatures/Devlog-PsiBeetle.gif)
(http://underrail.com/images/DevLog/Creatures/Devlog-Spider.gif)(http://underrail.com/images/DevLog/Creatures/Devlog-Mutant.gif)

Here are the full patch notes:

Interface
Items
Creatures
Mechanics
Tweaks
Psi
Feats
Quests/Maps
Bugs


Have fun with the new stuff and please stay patient as we continue to work on the Expedition DLC.

Report any bugs you find on the forums and make sure you specify which version you're playing.
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: MirddinEmris on December 08, 2017, 01:21:31 pm
Holy crap! Awesome!

Quote
Nerfed Power Fist

Was that necessary? It was good, but it was good for unique weapon, meaning that it was still pretty meh. It was mainly used for it's +1 Str.

Also, maybe it's not too late to ask for a buff to all unique weapon, or at least most of them? They really need it.
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: Altos on December 08, 2017, 02:27:59 pm
  • Trapper's Belt will now increase Traps skill by 15% (up from 10%); it will no longer reduce trap arming cooldown
At first I was concerned about this, but then I saw your bullet later on in the Mechanics section about how you're removing the trap arming cooldown entirely. I like it!

  • Infused siphoner tabi boots will now give immunity to slow instead to immobilization
  • Junkyard surprise can no longer increase perception, will or intelligence
Yeah, I saw these changes coming. The immobilization immunity was way too powerful, and everyone knows how abusive Junkyard Surprises were.
I guess it's time for me to change all of my builds. ;)

Any chance you'll implement hypercerebrix into the game before the rest of the DLC? :P

  • Fixed Jawbone lacking move and shoot precision penalty (now set to 15%) as well as close quarters precision penalty (now 10%)
Ouch. The Jawbone was already useless for most crossbow builds, but now it's even more so. Why nerf it? I don't recall it having any extraordinary stats outside of the previous lack of penalties.

  • Increased Coil Spider psi points and psi regeneration
  • Coil Spiders now have darkvision
  • Added Greater Coil Spiders
  • Added a new machinegun turret to replace the regular auto-turret in certain places and on certain difficulties
  • Increased dodge and evasion of burrower spawns, but also increased their susceptibility to AoE attacks
  • Dogs will now attempt to bump you out of stealth when the detection gets into ALERTED state, just like human NPCs (on normal difficulty or higher)
  • Added a stronger version of psi beetle
  • Increased crawler attack damage a bit; they also regenerate health now (even in combat) and have dark vision
  • Added a stronger version of crawler
  • Added stronger version of mutants Hunchback mutants
All of this looks awesome and I'm really excited to see how strong the new enemies are. I hope that the black crawler has been similarly buffed? He's presently such a wimp for so unique an enemy.

  • Added DOMINATING difficulty, mechanically it inherits the modifications of hard difficulty and also increased NPC health by 50% and skill levels by 30%.
Woah! A new difficulty? Sweet. That 30% increase to skill levels is mighty attractive (if I am understanding it correctly). I will have to try this out immediately.
(inb4 dominating ironman run)

  • Removed cooldown for arming traps
  • Removed cooldowns from lockpicking and hacking
Yesssss. I love you guys right now.

  • On normal difficulty and above, transitioning between areas (red transitions) will now cost action points
Welp, I guess that means we can't abuse transitions during battle anymore (or at least not as easily). That's fine by me; it always felt like I was cheating, anyway. ;)

  • Improved NPC pathfinding slightly
lol

Psi
  • You can now cast Cryokinetic Orb on any non-obstructing tile (such as water and other regularly non-traversable tiles)
  • Improved the shard distribution of Cryokinetic Orb on impact
Woah. Does this mean that we can freeze water now? I know that the answer is no, but I'm really hoping it's yes. :P

  • Steadfast Aim strength requirement changed to 5 (down from 6)
  • Cooked Shot special chemical pistol AoE attack with radius of 1
  • High-Technicalities increases damage with energy pistols by 7% for each point of intelligence above 5
I'm really liking all of these buffs to pistols, especially the chem and energy pistols. Time for an INT 16 energy pistols build. ;D

  • Because of the global map, some areas had to be added and some had to be reorganized (especially around the starting cave areas) in order to achieve geographical consistency
  • Added a number of possible random events around the world
  • Reworked a lot of encounters to scale with game difficulty (from easy to dominating). Normal was mostly kept as it is, but some encounters (typically mid-late and late game ones) were made more difficult on that level.
Yay! We finally have random events in the game! And a map! And new encounters!
It's like a whole new game! :D

  • DC mindreading will now take into account the number of killed Faceless, which will have negative effects of varying degrees depending on that number; however, kills during certain story-related events where combat is unavoidable will not be counted
Welp, I guess that the families of the 200 Faceless I murdered out in front of the blockade have finally complained. :P

  • Expanded the Hanging Rat bar and added a base ability check
Intriguing!

Overall, I'm super excited to see how all these changes play out in-game. You guys are doing great work here, and we definitely appreciate it.

Keep fighting the good fight, StygSoft! :)
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: LightningMonk on December 08, 2017, 03:10:24 pm
Sad to some nerfs  both agreeable and disagreeable (I guess I have to use other kinds of infused tabis now, eh?) ,but welcome giving some love to neglected weapons. Nice to see some buffs to pistols, especially chemical pistols. Might be actually interested in using them since they were introduced in EA though I do wish they got more crafting slots. Does Cooked Shot have a cooldown?

The new difficulty sounds interesting though potential making enemies meat sponges is a turn off. New critters are very welcome because the game's bestiary definitely lost a lot of relevance as the game went on. Overall, this all very tempting. I swore off playing a test build til expeditions dropped, but you guys aren't making that easy for me.
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: destroyor on December 08, 2017, 03:42:30 pm
  • Junkyard surprise can no longer increase perception, will or intelligence
  • Infused siphoner tabi boots will now give immunity to slow instead to immobilization
  • On normal difficulty and above, transitioning between areas (red transitions) will now cost action points
These are major game changes! All build guides will need a complete rewrite now due to the nerf to Junkyard surprise. Infused siphoner tabi boots goes from the most OP item in the game to an item that's only good to very specific dodge/evasion centric builds. I will need to test the action point cost for transitioning areas, but it looks like farming Faceless oddities will now be harder than ever.

  • Turn-based mode will no longer automatically end at the end of the turn if there are incapacitated enemies near
  • Various buffs to pistol
Yes! Now that you can stay in combat after a successful flash bang certain tactics are now viable. I'm happy to see the various buffs to pistol - will test to see if they are enough to make them good. :)

Holy crap! Awesome!

Quote
Nerfed Power Fist

Was that necessary? It was good, but it was good for unique weapon, meaning that it was still pretty meh. It was mainly used for it's +1 Str.

Also, maybe it's not too late to ask for a buff to all unique weapon, or at least most of them? They really need it.

Agree, I don't think Power Fist needs a nerf. If anything there should be a buff to all unique weapons. I understand you want to make crafting attractive but unique weapons should not be useless either.

  • Three-Pointer Changed Throwing skill requirement to 50 (up from 45); The crit chance will now scale by 1.5% per ten throwing skill points above 50, instead from dexterity
Question for Styg: Does this measure base or effective throwing skill points above 50? If this is measuring base throwing skill then this is a nerf instead of a buff. Throwing-only build is weak enough as it is and a nerf will really, really hurt.


Congrats on releasing this giant update, the inclusion of a map should change a lot of negative reviews. Overall I'm happy to see most of the changes and can't wait for the expansion.
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: Tygrende on December 08, 2017, 04:41:40 pm
Looking good. I have 3 questions:

Reduced the alpha on energy shields
What's "alpha on energy shields"?

Coil Spiders now have darkvision
Increased crawler attack damage a bit; they also regenerate health now (even in combat) and have dark vision
Given that crawlers don't have any ranged attacks and that electrokinesis can't miss, night vision will only affect how easy it is for them to spot the stealthed player right? Will they get dazed from flashbangs?

High-Technicalities increases damage with energy pistols by 7% for each point of intelligence above 5
Have you considered making this bonus a bit higher? Every point of perception increases gun damage by roughly 8% at level 25 with 135 base Guns skill, in addition to increasing precision. This makes investing in INT much less useful than PER, at least beyond 7 points needed for the majority of crafting feats. It could be interesting if INT offered a bit more damage at the cost of less precision.

Also the feat description says 8% in-game.
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: Tygrende on December 08, 2017, 05:07:05 pm
I have another question (besides the 3rd one I added to my last post).

What's up with the "Default/Original Main Menu Theme" interface option? It doesn't seem to do anything after restarting the game so I'm guessing it's meant for the expansion? In that case it would be kind of cool if there was a "Legacy" option with the drone from early access.
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: hilf on December 08, 2017, 05:30:29 pm
I don't think it was officially annouced:

Energy and chemical guns now have unique sprites! One for each category.


Stronger psi beetle, that's what i wished for.
Steadfast Aim now needs 5 STR, that's what i asked for.

Laser is faster than firearm guns just like 7 years ago, Styg got it right the first time. Range is still not greater but i'm not complaining.
I was about to express my butthurt about chem pistols but then i checked those new belts on wiki and decided to stfu.


Edit:
Unique chemical pistol is missing its damage bonus.
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: TheAverageGortsby on December 08, 2017, 06:50:09 pm
Awesome!  Thanks so much Styg and crew for this impressive list of changes.  Looks like almost everything we've been talking about on these forums in the last year or so has been addressed.  Very much looking forward to the expansion, but for anyone just getting into UnderRail this has got to be a big improvement.

Dominating difficulty, huh?  Were our tears of anguish not sufficient?  (Seriously, though, that'll really help keep the endgame challenging with the extra character levels from the expansion)
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: mattu on December 08, 2017, 07:31:25 pm
To play experimental branch on Steam, you right click the game in your library and go to "Betas" tab. To do so on GOG, you select the game and choose More->Settings. Make sure you don't override all your live version saves just in case something goes horribly wrong.

I must be doing something wrong on GOG--I don't see More -> Settings. See attached screenshot. Anybody see what the issue is?
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: mattu on December 08, 2017, 07:56:58 pm
Ah, that's too bad. Guess GOG gets their hooks into me a little further. Thanks for the heads-up.
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: TheAverageGortsby on December 08, 2017, 08:35:29 pm
This DOMINATING difficulty level is no joke, Styg.  I already died once and I'm only up to M'Lan Ratula. I'm going to enjoy these ulcers this new difficulty level will give me.

...oh my god, the psi beetles.  What the tapdancing Bob Ross is this nonsense?
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: UnLimiTeD on December 09, 2017, 02:11:12 am
Saw underrail updating on steam earlier.
This is welcome, and unexpected. Looks like I've been away for too long yet again. (Looks like I already had the game set to "experimental" in hopes of this?)
Gonna try out all the juicy stuff. Well, time permitting.
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: MirddinEmris on December 09, 2017, 05:32:06 am
Quote
Reduced the infused leather quality slightly overall and also added diminishing returns when making infused leather above 100 quality

Not so slightly, actually.

Materials which resulted in 194 quality leather previously (160 super steel fiber and 110 ancient rathound leather) now make leather with quality of only 139. And that is on top of reduced effectiveness of leather as component. Maybe you went tad far with this nerf? I mean at least let us make infused leather of 160 quality top, like with upper limit for every other component.
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: Fenix on December 09, 2017, 09:06:42 am
Styg, you are the man!

Woke up, stretched and already translated update into Russian!

http://steamcommunity.com/app/250520/discussions/0/1500126447394183756/
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: CrazyMode on December 09, 2017, 12:27:01 pm
Awesome!
Energy SMGs when?
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: destroyor on December 09, 2017, 03:39:37 pm
Infused rathound leather boots still have a pitiful critical chance bonus of ... 2%.  :o
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: MirddinEmris on December 09, 2017, 04:32:11 pm
Quote
Too far? Sorry man, I think this nerf hit its target rather well. But you make a good point about infused leather being lower quality than other very high-end materials, especially after the expansion's increased content level.

Yeah, that was my point. Not that nerf happened at all, with ludicrous level that infused leather could reach before i was expecting a nerf, but that this one maybe took it tad too far, with top quality even lower than that for other components.
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: sin on December 09, 2017, 06:14:48 pm
A lot of changes, seems that really good and well considered ones. Many thanks and I just can't wait for the expansion to be out. :-)
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: destroyor on December 09, 2017, 07:39:10 pm
Let's take a look at some numbers for infused leathers.

Component quality:
super steel fiber = 160
Ancient Rathound Leather = 114
Cave Hopper Leather = 39
Mutated Dog Leather = 64
Pig Leather = 64
Rathound Leather = 74
Siphoner Leather = 64

Infused leather quality/ver. 1.02/ver. 1.03
Infused Ancient Rathound Leather/196/139
Infused Cave Hopper Leather/151/126
Infused Mutated Dog Leather/166/132
Infused Pig Leather/166/132
Infused Rathound Leather/172/134
Infused Siphoner Leather/166/132
____


Crafted item comparsion (only changes are listed)
ver. 1.02 = ver. 1.03

Infused Ancient Rathound leather armor
Mech resist: 53%/26 = 42%/19
Cold resist: 38%/15 = 32%/12
All heat + cold damage reduced by: 24% = 17%

Infused Ancient Rathound tabi boots
Heat resist: 2% = 2%
Cold resist: 24%/2 = 17%/2
Movement points: 52 = 38
Dodge+Evasion: 72 = 54
====

Infused Cave Hopper leather armor
Mech resist: 28%/11 = 25%/10
Movement speed increase: 23% = 20
Movement point increase: 41 = 35

Infused Cave Hopper tabi boots
Movement points increase: 41 = 35
Movement speed increase: 34% = 29
Dodge+Evasion: 72 = 59 = 50
====

Infused Mutated Dog leather armor
Mech resist: 35%/14 = 30%/11
Acid resist: 56%/18 = 49%/15
All heating effects increase: 53% = 46%

Infused Mutated Dog tabi boots
Acid resist: 33% = 26%
Movement points: 38 = 31
Movement speed increase: 31% = 26%
Dodge+Evasion: 54 = 44
====

Infused Pig leather armor
Mech resist: 49%/13 = 42%/11
Health increase: 124 = 104

Infused Pig Leather tabi boots
Movement points increase: 44 = 36
Movement speed increase: 36% = 30%
Dodge+Evasion: 64 = 52
Fortitude: 39 = 35
====

Infused Rathound Leather armor
Mech resist: 43%/17 = 36%/14
Cold resist: 20%/2 = 17%/2
Critical chance increase: 16% = 13%

Infused Rathound Leather tabi boots
Cold resist: 15% = 12%
Movement points increase: 46 = 37
Movement speed increase: 37% = 31%
Dodge+Evasion: 66 = 53
====

Infused Siphoner leather armor
Mech resist: 37%/11 = 32%/9
Heat resist: 35%/14 = 31%/12
Acid resist: 35%/14 = 31%/12
Dodge+Evasion: 81 = 67

Infused Siphoner Leather tabi boots
Heat resist: 20% = 16%
Acid resist: 20% = 16%
Movement points increase: 44 = 36
Movement speed increase: 36% = 30%
Dodge+Evasion: 79 = 67
Fortitude: 39 = 35
____

So what does it all mean exactly? We can see all resistances and thresholds are reduced so you'll take a bit more damage from everything. Dodge + Evasion got nerf pretty hard and if you consider the NPC skill increase of 30% (translation: hit harder and MUCH MORE ACCURATE) in dominating difficulty I'm honestly not sure if dodge+evasion centric builds are viable in mid ~ late game now (in that difficulty).

Personal opinion: the special effect nerf I can deal with but the decrease in dodge + evasion bonus from both sources (armor + tabi/boot) seems too far. In the situation of infused ancient rathound leather armor we see a decrease of mech threshold from 26 to 19 - so previously 0 damage melee attack now turn into taking 58% of melee damage. Ouch!

TL:DR = Infused leathers got nerf pretty hard, the effects are especially apparent in dodge and/or evasion centric builds. I think the devs need to look closely at the mid ~ late game situation at higher difficulty.
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: TheAverageGortsby on December 09, 2017, 08:12:27 pm
Dodge + Evasion got nerf pretty hard and if you consider the NPC skill increase of 30% (translation: hit harder and MUCH MORE ACCURATE) in dominating difficulty I'm honestly not sure if dodge+evasion centric builds are viable in mid ~ late game now (in that difficulty).

TL:DR = Infused leathers got nerf pretty hard, the effects are especially apparent in dodge and/or evasion centric builds. I think the devs need to look closely at the mid ~ late game situation at higher difficulty.
I don't have any special insight into the dev cycle obviously, but remember how Styg was saying that he wanted to push a patch right with or shortly before the expansion?  I suppose this is the balancing patch - tested internally for overall balance - released into the wild to do bugfix checking.  Remember that veteran levels are changed - we're going to get more dodge and evasion, for example,  and the endgame content isn't going to be changed so much because the expansion is a horizontal growth content addition.  So maybe - just maybe - this is correctly balanced toward endgame with the extra five levels.  And I'll wager we don't have terribly long to wait now for it, either, based on stuff that Styg said in his previous DevLogs.

I think it might just be fair to balance the late game on DOMINATING for the new content.  Don't sweat what you can do at level 25.  Think about what you can do at level 30.
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: ciox on December 09, 2017, 08:40:49 pm
Yeah.. wearing Infused Ancient Rathound armor on Hard was already underwhelming before this nerf, its resistances were strong but not very strong and the bonuses (+heat and +cold resists) were kinda underwhelming. I wished I had made a Regenerative Vest as usual.

This was the armor I had after looking at lots of leathers and super steel fibers.

(https://i.imgur.com/YwQnibS.png)

It wasn't all that amazing in DC on Hard, especially in long fights, damage would get through easily and I would miss having something else going on like the healing effect of a Regenerative Vest quite a bit.

One solution to this contention would be to allow the unnerfed higher qualities on Hard and above, would that be reasonable?


Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: destroyor on December 09, 2017, 11:49:05 pm
On Dominating difficulty:
I'm starting a new energy weapon char - and thought ok, so far so good. I laugh when I see rogue plasma walker, ok that's a curve ball and I can deal. Exploring - saw Burrower Warrior - ok I'm outclass here Quickload.

And then I reach Silent Isle - holy shit.

This is a brick wall - I don't think my char can clear this before finishing Depot A - so alternative entry is right out.

God know when, but when I finished this char it'll be interesting to see how my top char DEX based psi monk handle Dominating difficulty.
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: mattu on December 10, 2017, 12:26:16 am
And then I reach Silent Isle - holy shit.

Yup, holy shit might have been my exact words as well. I suspect it is doable before Depot A by someone, but probably not by me.

DOMINATING is awful and it is awesome. I don't think I want to play like this all the time--but it may be hard to go back, too.
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: Fenix on December 10, 2017, 05:45:21 am
Interesting things you saying...
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: Wildan on December 10, 2017, 11:47:02 am
  • Junkyard surprise can no longer increase perception, will or intelligence
As much as I hate this, it was really necessary. No more INT 3 DIY crafting wizards. :P

DOMINATING terrifies me already. I'm pretty much sure I will not be able to complete the game on it, at least not with permadeath rules.
Haven't played Underrail for something like a year, can't wait to get my ass kicked. :D
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: Hazard on December 10, 2017, 04:35:42 pm
As much as I hate this, it was really necessary. No more INT 3 DIY crafting wizards. :P

Probably depends on how difficult it will be to acquire the new hypercerebrix drug. If it's only available in the Black Sea region, then yeah, gonna be a while before you can craft anything worthwhile with INT 3.

Very nice changes and new additions overall, though. Hopefully it won't be too many months before Expedition drops. ;)
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: Tygrende on December 10, 2017, 06:15:30 pm
Probably depends on how difficult it will be to acquire the new hypercerebrix drug. If it's only available in the Black Sea region, then yeah, gonna be a while before you can craft anything worthwhile with INT 3.
I won't be surprised if it will be craft/mercantile only or an extremaly rare drop like focus stim, jumping bean, irongut, etc.
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: Bruno on December 10, 2017, 08:22:30 pm
Funny comment from the guard at Mushroom Cove, about the distance from SGS :)

Wonder what to do with the lump of coal I just found...
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: MirddinEmris on December 10, 2017, 08:39:19 pm
Wonder what to do with the lump of coal I just found...

That's your christmas present
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: Bruno on December 10, 2017, 09:22:47 pm
Wonder what to do with the lump of coal I just found...

That's your christmas present
I knew I should have behaved myself at the company christmas party :(
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: TheAverageGortsby on December 10, 2017, 10:25:50 pm
The game is always intended to be playable as is, no level 30 what-ifs.
OK, but don't miss my point completely and then act like I'm babbling nonsense.  Did you even see the last few lines of destroyor's long data post about the new crafted item results, to which my post immediately followed and replied?  He was talking specifically about the end-game viability of dodge and evasion based builds on DOMINATING in light of the direct nerfs to +skill and damage thresholds from crafted items.  We'll have not only five more levels (and the +HP from them) of skillpoints to put into dodge and evasion, but also probably specialization points (and AFAIK we haven't been told for sure what their exact, final effects will be).  I was cautioning him not to judge endgame scenarios from the perspective of current skill thresholds, and thus not to worry too much about the new top-end item scaling while we still don't know (*we* don't.  I have no idea if you do) how everything's going to be implemented.  Even if it's unbeatable today, that doesn't mean that, ceteris paribus, it'll be unbeatable with five more levels, new gear, specialization points, and who knows what other character option changes will come with the expansion.
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: destroyor on December 11, 2017, 12:34:32 am
@TheAverageGortsby - so correct me if I'm wrong, you are saying (even tho epeli pointed out we should judge this based on the game as is without expansion) player who are not getting the expansion should not be able to beat dominating difficulty with a dodge+evasion centric build?
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: Hazard on December 11, 2017, 12:43:48 am
Thinking about the hypercerebrix some more, if it's only available for those who have the expansion, wouldn't that be, uh, kind of a dick move? Small one, but still. Especially if it's freely available in a shop somewhere, the 3 INT crafter remains a mid-game option for expansion owners, but not for others. Which feels a bit unfair, considering it used to be an option for everyone.
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: MirddinEmris on December 11, 2017, 12:56:36 pm
Quote
player who are not getting the expansion should not be able to beat dominating difficulty with a dodge+evasion centric build?

Sorry, mate, but that sounds a bit like bull. You can get evasion and dodge pretty high on a dodge+evasion centric  build, so high, in fact, that on Hard difficulty with such build i don't even use any boosters like jumping beans because i already have more than twice in defense skills than most (or all) enemies have in offense skills. +30% is not such a radical change that it can make those builds obsolete. Though i imagine that it will push a point where you reach you effective ceiling further down the line and make a start more difficult.
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: destroyor on December 11, 2017, 11:19:18 pm
Quote
player who are not getting the expansion should not be able to beat dominating difficulty with a dodge+evasion centric build?

Sorry, mate, but that sounds a bit like bull. You can get evasion and dodge pretty high on a dodge+evasion centric  build, so high, in fact, that on Hard difficulty with such build i don't even use any boosters like jumping beans because i already have more than twice in defense skills than most (or all) enemies have in offense skills. +30% is not such a radical change that it can make those builds obsolete. Though i imagine that it will push a point where you reach you effective ceiling further down the line and make a start more difficult.

My 0 dodge max evasion char is not at the end game yet. We'll see how things work once I reach the pre-DC elevator fight.
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: MirddinEmris on December 11, 2017, 11:32:28 pm
My 0 dodge max evasion char is not at the end game yet. We'll see how things work once I reach the pre-DC elevator fight.

Can you give  a link to your character and say what gear/meds are you using? I want to have a point of reference when you say how it ended
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: destroyor on December 12, 2017, 12:19:42 am
Planned energy pistol build:
http://underrail.info.tm/build/?GQMNBwMKAwfCh8KHAAAAwodxADIcKFt2SzBwAAAAAAAAARkxMB5RWRZLAj4zwppa
Progression: https://i.imgur.com/kGTxBwc.png

Gear:
Weapon: laser + electro + plasma pistol w/ smart + circular enhance
Armor: 10% armor penalty tact vest (health+stealth), padded (high den) infused rathound leather armor (black) overcoat, infused (pig/siphoner <- haven't decide yet) leather tabi boots, smart goggles
med: biology to 81 w/ bench so all meds up to bullhead

Edit: need more play testing on end game Ambush to see if I can drop infused rathound leather armor entirely, if yes then replace w/ infused pig leather armor.
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: Hazard on December 13, 2017, 12:40:05 am
Do the new random events work on existing saves? I've been filling out the map and haven't encountered any so far.
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: TheAverageGortsby on December 13, 2017, 03:57:54 am
Sorry TheAverageGortsby. It seems we're talking across each other here. I'll try to explain myself again.
Well it takes two to tango.  Your "What" made me think I was speaking Klingon, or perhaps having a stroke.  So apologies to you for my share of that misunderstanding.  I get what you mean, I think.

ben law' batlhmey wo'vaD!
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: Morm on December 13, 2017, 03:07:20 pm
Do the new random events work on existing saves? I've been filling out the map and haven't encountered any so far.
Same here, I have filled the entirety of Lower Underrail, Lower Caves and Lower Passages and haven't encountered any either.
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: Bruno on December 13, 2017, 09:31:52 pm
Mechanics
  • On hard difficulty EMP will drain energy (and subsequently deal damage to the holder) from all items in the inventory (not just equipped ones)
This took me by surprise. Quite fun.

Quests/Maps
  • Reworked a lot of encounters to scale with game difficulty (from easy to dominating). Normal was mostly kept as it is, but some encounters (typically mid-late and late game ones) were made more difficult on that level.
I usually play on Normal and are now trying Hard. Very fun with scaled encounters! Have to play with renewed alertness after being used to Normal.


Love the patch. Good to see the game isn't finished yet.
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: Hazard on December 14, 2017, 07:44:04 am
Do the new random events work on existing saves? I've been filling out the map and haven't encountered any so far.
Same here, I have filled the entirety of Lower Underrail, Lower Caves and Lower Passages and haven't encountered any either.
They do work, I just encountered one in Core City.
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: Morm on December 14, 2017, 11:48:51 am
Ok nice. Good to know that we can encounter some in cities too.
And what was this event ? I'm really curious about all this.
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: Hazard on December 14, 2017, 01:30:59 pm
That one was a conversation initiated by an NPC. I also got ambushed by an industrial robot at a place where I definitely did not expect to encounter one, which I assume was another random event.
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: Fenix on December 15, 2017, 09:48:55 am
Can I have somehow at same time old stable and new beta? Through Steam.
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: TheAverageGortsby on December 16, 2017, 12:55:56 am
  • DC mindreading will now take into account the number of killed Faceless, which will have negative effects of varying degrees depending on that number; however, kills during certain story-related events where combat is unavoidable will not be counted
Meant to ask about this - will Faceless-controlled robots (like those plasma walkers and kamikaze bots south of Rail Crossing) count toward the total of "Faceless killed"?  Or is it just the Faceless people?  Might make a difference as to how certain problems get solved  ;)
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: Sykar on December 16, 2017, 04:43:28 am
Has anyone here who plays a stealth character on Dominating being able to handle the new Death Stalkers? They are the bane of my existence even at level 14.
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: mattu on December 16, 2017, 02:50:57 pm
They're very dangerous. So far I've only run into them in a couple of places. In one place I was able to beat them (there were, I think, 4, yikes) thanks to a good environment for fighting. In another it jumped me instantly upon entering the zone (I was in stealth, but with these guys I might as well not be), killed me before I could act, and I was like, nope, don't actually have to go this way.

I have kind of avoided places that would normally harbor crawlers since then.

I'm sure there will be situations later where I will be forced to fight more than one at a time, which . . . won't be easy. I am both looking forward to this and determined to put it off as long as I can.  :)
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: destroyor on December 17, 2017, 12:59:24 am
I think Death Stalkers should be weaken a bit. As a CON 3, 0 dodge char I don't see any good option dealing w/ them without cheesing them with quick tinkering + bear traps. A single strike from a Death Stalkers and I'm already down to 20% health. Even with doctor's belt, irongut, antidote, adv health hypo it's very easy to be trap into an unwinnable situation. Caltrops, incendiary grenades, and flares helps but it requires foreknowledge so that's bad.

I don't know if I'm having really bad luck but I can't seem to locate a good quality plasma discharger (nothing higher than 11x), and good paddings (especially high-den, nothing higher than 10x) for leather armor. I unlocked every shop (except foundry secret shop) before DC and been doing numerous merchant runs. Are you guys having trouble locating high quality crafting components as well?
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: TheAverageGortsby on December 17, 2017, 01:07:07 am
Are you guys having trouble locating high quality crafting components as well?
I'm not quite as far in as you are (you're probably much better than I am so you likely don't die as much =D ) but I'm finding gear in the low-100s range quite often.  Still haven't unlocked the Institute, Oligarch faction, or the Protectorate/Free Drones merchants but it's looking like a few dozen points in merchant might make a big difference.  At least in Foundry, and on Blaine, the unlocked items are often much better than the default inventory.   In the past, it was mostly just "more, not different" for passing Mercantile checks, but with the new stuff it feels like - and this is admittedly a very small sample size - Mercantile unlocks "more, and better" stuff now.  105 effective Mercantile, if that matters.
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: destroyor on December 17, 2017, 01:56:25 am
Unfortunately there's not enough skill for this char to invest in merchantile. :(
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: Hazard on December 17, 2017, 04:58:03 am
I think Death Stalkers should be weaken a bit. As a CON 3, 0 dodge char I don't see any good option dealing w/ them without cheesing them with quick tinkering + bear traps. A single strike from a Death Stalkers and I'm already down to 20% health. Even with doctor's belt, irongut, antidote, adv health hypo it's very easy to be trap into an unwinnable situation. Caltrops, incendiary grenades, and flares helps but it requires foreknowledge so that's bad.
IMHO, foreknowledge requirement in a game as massive and intricate as Underrail isn't a bad thing, at least if we're speaking from an ironman/minimal reloading standpoint, and especially if the selected difficulty level is Dominating. :P Now, whether or not Death Stalkers are too difficult to beat in general I can't say, seeing as I've only encountered them on Hard with a tin can rifleman build, but what I do know for sure is that their stealth skill is absolutely crazy. With 531 detection (level 22, PER 15, +91% Motion Tracking NV Goggles) I couldn't spot them before they initiated combat. The NV wasn't on, though, so that could have made a big difference.

Edit: Speaking of Mercantile, I've also been wondering if it might actually be worth it to raise the skill to 45 for Free Drones/Protectorate merchants, or even 55 for the Oculus one. But affording that is difficult even for a tin can rifleman crafter, since I already have Persuasion.
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: TheAverageGortsby on December 17, 2017, 05:29:19 am
Now, whether or not Death Stalkers are too difficult to beat in general I can't say
The first fight I had with them, three of them in a smallish room, was ridiculous.  I'm trying not to rely on savescumming, so I basically do the same thing every time I get to a door: hit Premeditation, let it tick to 5 seconds, enter turn-based, open the door.  If it looks clear, walk in, select (but don't cast) Force Field, run it around to see if it indicates any occupied squares.  Cancel FF, step back outside, throw molotov just inside, use Premeditation on a fireball of lightning, or if there's a large group of humans instead use the "I win" button (Premed, LoC, Bilocation) and drop the force field to lock them all in while an army of Doppelgangers kicks the crap out of the unfortunate burning souls.  Anyway, barely managed the fight against the Death Stalkers, then forgot about the new debuff and used a health hypo, which immediately killed me  :P

Tell you what, though, I waste *a lot* of molotovs trying to stay safe ;)
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: MirddinEmris on December 17, 2017, 05:35:07 am
I found Yell to be a pretty decent feat for getting enemies out of stealth along with putting slight debuff on them. My knife user (that i lovingly call Jack the Ripper) is certainly enjoying being able to do so without using consumables.
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: Sykar on December 17, 2017, 05:52:35 am
I think Death Stalkers should be weaken a bit. As a CON 3, 0 dodge char I don't see any good option dealing w/ them without cheesing them with quick tinkering + bear traps. A single strike from a Death Stalkers and I'm already down to 20% health. Even with doctor's belt, irongut, antidote, adv health hypo it's very easy to be trap into an unwinnable situation. Caltrops, incendiary grenades, and flares helps but it requires foreknowledge so that's bad.

I don't know if I'm having really bad luck but I can't seem to locate a good quality plasma discharger (nothing higher than 11x), and good paddings (especially high-den, nothing higher than 10x) for leather armor. I unlocked every shop (except foundry secret shop) before DC and been doing numerous merchant runs. Are you guys having trouble locating high quality crafting components as well?

I think they should appear less often. Also their stealth detection is ridiculous they start hunting me as soon as I am anywhere close to them but I do not see them coming at all despite having 10 Perception, Paranoia and 63% stealth detection goggles.
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: hilf on December 18, 2017, 04:55:41 pm
On the positive side, the diminishing returns make getting extremely high quality super steel less important for infused leathers. You get to craft infused stuff around ql 100-120 fairly easily, 130 with some effort and that's how it is with most other components.

Last time i played Deep Caverns threw ~160 quality components at me.
With Mercantile just above 100 i saw q147 Seeker Lenses, i assume it's also possible for armor components.

Besides, nerfing endgame light armors in a game with such damage explosion is rather strange.

And being no longer able to savescam animal skin loot quality does not help either :(
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: TheAverageGortsby on December 19, 2017, 01:31:27 am
Last time i played Deep Caverns threw ~160 quality components at me.
Yeah but DC is just strange and offputting.  You get all the best quality gear there, but you can't access your housing where your +skill buff is so you probably can't make use of that really high-end stuff.  Basically everything about the design of Deep Caverns sabotages your character build, unless you know in advance what to expect and build to it.  That's Bad Design 101.

You're absolutely right that there's high-quality stuff all over DC.  I just feel like it's not reasonable to expect to rely on that stuff for crafting since only very few builds will have the skill to hit those thresholds without the housing bonus, so ultimately you just end up with a bunch of stuff to play with when you get back from visiting Tchort.  If you do ;)
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: Hazard on December 19, 2017, 10:41:07 am
Speaking of Deep Caverns... Styg, does game balance/difficulty go totally down the shitter if the Expansion content is played after DC? On one hand, I'd like to get my hands on all the highest quality materials in DC in preparation for the Expansion, but on the other hand, it would also be nice if Black Sea wasn't a total walk in the park.
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: destroyor on December 20, 2017, 02:41:57 am
Quote
player who are not getting the expansion should not be able to beat dominating difficulty with a dodge+evasion centric build?

Sorry, mate, but that sounds a bit like bull. You can get evasion and dodge pretty high on a dodge+evasion centric  build, so high, in fact, that on Hard difficulty with such build i don't even use any boosters like jumping beans because i already have more than twice in defense skills than most (or all) enemies have in offense skills. +30% is not such a radical change that it can make those builds obsolete. Though i imagine that it will push a point where you reach you effective ceiling further down the line and make a start more difficult.

My 0 dodge max evasion char is not at the end game yet. We'll see how things work once I reach the pre-DC elevator fight.

Well just did the elevator fight, at evasion 181 (Level 25, 7 AGI, max evasion skill, wearing infused pig leather tabi, padded infused rathound leather armor, 15% armor penalty) I can say dodge/evasion build received a slight but noticeable nerf at dominating difficulty. Previously on hard, version 1.0.2.x, with a very similar setup (higher dodge/evasion bonus from infused leather) I'm pretty much safe from almost all ranged attack. This time around I would get hit occasionally. One thing of note is my char was killed at full health by a burst (shield was down from other damage) from Faceless which never happened before.

Are dodge/evasion builds still viable at dominating difficulty at version 1.0.3.x? Yes. Did it also received a noticeable nerf? Also yes.
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: Mindless on December 20, 2017, 09:02:05 am
Are dodge/evasion builds still viable at dominating difficulty at version 1.0.3.x? Yes. Did it also received a noticeable nerf? Also yes.
That was the reason I have played with 0 dodge/evasion char on DOMINATING difficulty...
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: hilf on December 20, 2017, 05:36:20 pm
Last time i played Deep Caverns threw ~160 quality components at me.
Yeah but DC is just strange and offputting.  You get all the best quality gear there, but you can't access your housing where your +skill buff is so you probably can't make use of that really high-end stuff.  Basically everything about the design of Deep Caverns sabotages your character build, unless you know in advance what to expect and build to it.  That's Bad Design 101.

You're absolutely right that there's high-quality stuff all over DC.  I just feel like it's not reasonable to expect to rely on that stuff for crafting since only very few builds will have the skill to hit those thresholds without the housing bonus, so ultimately you just end up with a bunch of stuff to play with when you get back from visiting Tchort.  If you do ;)

Builds that are serious about crafting will be craft in DC from DC componenets. If players can raise their combat abilities to 200 or 300 then why not rise crafting to 150? Or even 135 as some items can be crafted with only that much skill using q165 components.

My problem with DC is that components can roll very low quality, like 10. This is useless and decreases chance to get something you would actually use for crafting.

More things:
- Super steel itself can still be rolled with 160 so items that need it directly or SS sheets are ahead of others (before DC).
- Infused leather needs not only SS but also a skin.
- As Styg said expansion will need higher skill checks, particularly for crafting. Does it mean infused leather quality will be reverted or will there be Super Duper Infused Leather to craft instead?
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: destroyor on December 21, 2017, 12:00:34 am
Well just did the elevator fight, at evasion 181 (Level 25, 7 AGI, max evasion skill, wearing infused pig leather tabi, padded infused rathound leather armor, 15% armor penalty) I can say dodge/evasion build received a slight but noticeable nerf at dominating difficulty. Previously on hard, version 1.0.2.x, with a very similar setup (higher dodge/evasion bonus from infused leather) I'm pretty much safe from almost all ranged attack. This time around I would get hit occasionally. One thing of note is my char was killed at full health by a burst (shield was down from other damage) from Faceless which never happened before.

Wow, that sounds impressive. Were you targeted with many missed ranged attacks or were the faceless just focusing on other targets?

You see, I thought this dominating & defense skills situation would be at its absolute worst with faceless ever since they got battle trance. Instead of 130%, they basically have 260% of their normal offensive skills. This is far greater hit to defense skills than anything else on dominating, especially if someone wants to fight them in DC.

Faceless were focusing on other targets. However I did stick around 2 ~ 3 turns after all Tchortists died (because of greed, been looting Faceless corpses in an attempt to farm oddity) and I evaded most of the ranged attacks. I did died a couple times due to burst (once)/psi. Keep in mind I was using jumping bean and most likely staying well outside their weapons' optimal range (hit and run ftw).

@epeli - been reading the threads on RPG codex, just to be clear I'm at DC dominating difficulty but I haven't finish the game yet. The reason I said "dodge/evasion builds are still viable but received a slight but noticeable nerf" was because my char been successful evading most of the aimed shot from npc snipers/shock bolt from npc xbowers throughout the game so far. However you can't just blindly quote me on this and deem dodge/evasion builds are viable at dominating difficulty. I do plan on testing dodge/evasion extensively at dominating difficulty later w/ a psi monk build after I finish this energy weapon char. Until then, please take what I'm saying with a grain of salt, ok maybe a bag of salt would be better.
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: Mindless on December 21, 2017, 08:22:43 am
BTW, I've killed a bit of faceless in the Blockade(oddity farming) and Elevator fight and couldn't pass the Mindreading procedure in DC with new changes =(
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: Hazard on December 21, 2017, 08:50:06 am
Elevator fight shouldn't affect the mindreading outcome, but killing Faceless at the blockade and other avoidable places does.

Epeli, do you happen to have any info regarding Expedition difficulty if it's played after returning from DC?
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: hilf on December 21, 2017, 05:25:08 pm
Quote
On hard difficulty EMP will drain energy (and subsequently deal damage to the holder) from all items in the inventory (not just equipped ones)

This calls for old Power Management - 35% less energy usage or 35% more energy, if lesser cost is not possible.
Or maybe it is possible to give energy shields reduced cost as well? Something like Damage Reduction mechanism that is currently protecting health bar, but for energy shield.
I want Power Management, not Die Faster To EMP Nades Management :)


Does anyone know if killing Faceless in a cave near CC makes mindreader in DC angry?
It should not because they are attacking you on sight unlike group near Foundry so you are just self-defending.
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: destroyor on December 21, 2017, 11:29:20 pm
Spoiler alert! Do not read if you never made it past the elevator fight.










Guys I need a confirmation here: Does creeping dread/Eye of Tchort debuff seems to stack faster on dominating difficulty for you?

This is either my memory playing trick on me or the debuff stack speed was increased in this patch. I remember being able to explore a couple blocks before having to hide in a safe spot before. Right now I can barely walk one block before creeping dread turns into Eye of Tchort. Yes, I'm using Cheat Engine speed hack. Yes, I tested and re-tested this with and without Cheat Engine and it has nothing to do with the rate debuff stacks. I don't remember being this annoyed by this in my previous DC runs. This is not even hard or difficult, just pure annoyance - Tchortlings would constantly show up, kill them in 1 ~ 3 shots from my laser and their reinforcements would lock me into a 10 min mini battle which is neither difficult nor resource draining (you waste a couple of my batteries and stims, gold star for you Tchort).

Please take a look at the rate creeping dread/Eye of Tchort stacks and slow it down a bit. Thank you.
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: Mindless on December 22, 2017, 07:49:17 am
Guys I need a confirmation here: Does creeping dread/Eye of Tchort debuff seems to stack faster on dominating difficulty for you?
Faster from my observations or mb Styg changed debuff rate on all difficulties.
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: hilf on December 22, 2017, 11:30:24 am

edit:
Does anyone know if killing Faceless in a cave near CC makes mindreader in DC angry?
It should not because they are attacking you on sight unlike group near Foundry so you are just self-defending.
Would you get angry if someone killed your family--in self-defense? I am not a faceless lawyer, but all kills (except during the invasion) count for something.

Tough question as i don't have anyone in military.

Spoilers ahead!






I just wanted to inform group near CC they can go home, just like i did with Foundry group. If mindreaded is worthy of his name he should know this. I don't know why Faceless would get angry about killing them (unprovoked) near CC but not during elevator fight, not counting gameplay reasons.
Actually they have more reasons to be mad at you for fighting them near elevator.
Are they mad for killing them at West Wing?

BTW what's the deal with this absurdly strong bias towards Faceless? It was already strong before 1.0.3 but now it's just... i don't know. It manifests itself in so many ways i can't be bothered to list them all so i'll just mention infinite respawns and Bakers quest. I guess they must be the good guys.
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: Hazard on December 22, 2017, 01:08:45 pm
Why would any of the Faceless surrounding Core City want to leave? They're looking for the cube after all, and all leads point to it being in Core City, especially if the player talks to them in Rail Crossing and near Foundry.

You could argue that in all other possible battles with the Faceless except the elevator one, the player character can run away instead of fighting in order to survive. That's probably why the Mindreader in DC doesn't consider that particular engagement as a hostile act. It's a shaky argument, but there's hardly anything else apart from gameplay reasons, so...
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: hilf on December 22, 2017, 03:56:00 pm
Spoilers time!





After you witness Tchortists stealing cube you know it's no longer in Core City.
"Hi guys, you can move on since item you're looking for is no longer... what the heck?! You wanna fight? Great choice as i am the Invictus and Invictus never runs away!"

My interpretation of conversation with Faceless in West Wing and elevator fight:
Faceless: "Hi player. We're going to kill everyone in this place including you if you won't leave."
Player: "Why, thanks for the warning, man. But i'd rather stay here to fight hand in hand with your archenemy and kill as many of you as i can before proceeding with my business in Deep Caverns."
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: Tygrende on December 22, 2017, 04:02:33 pm
I wouldn't mind if the kills during the elevator fight counted as well, it's rather easy to just stay out of the fight and wait until the elevator comes, even if tchortists are hostile.
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: Hazard on December 22, 2017, 05:08:52 pm
Spoilers time!





After you witness Tchortists stealing cube you know it's no longer in Core City.
"Hi guys, you can move on since item you're looking for is no longer... what the heck?! You wanna fight? Great choice as i am the Invictus and Invictus never runs away!"

My interpretation of conversation with Faceless in West Wing and elevator fight:
Faceless: "Hi player. We're going to kill everyone in this place including you if you won't leave."
Player: "Why, thanks for the warning, man. But i'd rather stay here to fight hand in hand with your archenemy and kill as many of you as i can before proceeding with my business in Deep Caverns."

The Faceless shooting on sight is a different issue, though. AFAIK, lore-wise the Faceless are supposed to be somewhat unpredictable: I think it's Old Jonas who advises the player to steer clear of small bands of Faceless, since those tend to be more dangerous/prone to attacking than larger groups. That said, if you go through the Oligarchy questline and only after that speak with the Mindreader in Rail Crossing... That should probably have a pretty big impact on the Faceless, and I'm not sure if the game recognizes this possibility at all.

As for the friendly Faceless... well, yeah. You won't encounter him if you didn't help him in Core City, but if you did do that, it does make the whole Institute assault and elevator fight pretty weird. Giving the player a choice to temporarily side with the Faceless, or leave and either hide during the battle or fight alongside the Tchortists (hostile Faceless, but if you don't attack them you don't get any penalty to your reputation) would probably make more sense.

This choice could even be the fourth main deciding factor in whether or not the Faceless in DC decide to ally with the player. If you screwed up in Rail Crossing, but helped the Faceless near Foundry and in Core City and then fought the Tchortists, the Mindreader would still consider you as a friend. You could even go back to the Tchortists in DC, since as far as I remember, nobody actually made it down from the Institute apart from the player, and thus the Cytosine Outpost garrison wouldn't have any idea you betrayed them before.
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: Hal900x on December 25, 2017, 08:04:25 am
Wow! Time for my ~100th playthrough! I was waiting for the expansion but looks like I will finally have to try chem pistols. I agree about the uniques nerfs though...why nerf power fist/jawbone? These become disposable quite early, for a crafter. Speaking of which, this game really needs some tweaks to allow for a non-crafter game. I suggest a major change to Mercantile skill. Not just more random items selection (mainly components) on merchants, but more powerful completed gear.
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: Fenix on December 25, 2017, 12:31:45 pm
Chem pistols are good - playing now with 3 Con build on DOMINATION, can confirm.
Also, tips - acid don't hurt big mutants in Deport A, but do hurt mutated dogs - it help to conserve ammo.
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: Ravager on December 26, 2017, 08:42:41 pm
There is something I am not clear about.

Several weeks ago, I started a new Crossbow build, as I had never played that build before (and now Bowyer is available!)

I just completed Depot A, and am ready to move onto the bigger game.

Knowing that this 1.0.3 update is coming, I have not moved beyond the SGS/Junktown/GMS starting area, because I heard that many zones will be updated. Someone mentioned that zones you haven't been to yet are the ones that are updated by the update.

Is this true? I haven't moved to Camp Hathor yet, because I want those (and all other) zones to be created by the maps from the new update. Is this the right idea? Should I hold off on venturing beyond the pre-Depot A areas until the update is officially released?

Or does this have no bearing on the maps, and I should just go to Camp Hathor now?
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: Hazard on December 26, 2017, 10:15:55 pm
AFAIK, the redesigned enemy encounters is the biggest thing you won't see in areas you've visited before the update. There's not much reason to wait for the official release, though, since the experimental branch is really stable and any serious bugs that turn up are pretty quickly fixed by Styg and his team.
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: Altos on December 26, 2017, 10:34:19 pm
Knowing that this 1.0.3 update is coming, I have not moved beyond the SGS/Junktown/GMS starting area, because I heard that many zones will be updated. Someone mentioned that zones you haven't been to yet are the ones that are updated by the update.

Is this true? I haven't moved to Camp Hathor yet, because I want those (and all other) zones to be created by the maps from the new update. Is this the right idea? Should I hold off on venturing beyond the pre-Depot A areas until the update is officially released?

Or does this have no bearing on the maps, and I should just go to Camp Hathor now?

You mind as well just update to 1.0.3.20 now and be done with it. The Experimental Build, despite its name, is very stable in its current iteration, and--as Hazard mentioned--any serious bugs are swiftly patched by the devs upon them being reported.

There are new zones that have been added in the Lower Caves between SGS, Junkyard, and Camp Hathor, so it's not just the Lower Underrail metro area that has been updated for the map. However, these new zones are nothing more than empty connector maps meant to fill the space between existing rooms (at least as far as the Lower Caves are concerned), so don't worry about having a ton of content behind you that you'll have to re-visit in order to map out. I can tell you now with confidence that it's really nothing to worry about.

Regarding what zones are and are not updated, it is my understanding that everything is retroactively updated once you download the update, regardless of whether you have already visited it or not.

tl;dr :: You mind as well just download 1.0.3.20 now from the Steam Experimental Build and be done with it. Your character will be fine. Don't worry about it. If you're not sure how to download the Experimental Build, there are instructions on the Steam forums somewhere. Or you can just ask for help here and I can explain it. It's a fairly easy process.
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: MaZe on December 29, 2017, 11:05:49 am
So that I don't start off with my one and only negative point, I just want to say that this is an excellent patch, I'm easy to win over,  just throw some added difficulty and new harder enemies my way and I'll be very happy.
The one thing I don't like though, which also confused the ever living fuck out of me is that if anything, I was expecting unique weapons to get buffed across the board, not a few getting nerfed.
Maybe somebody else can let me know why the ones that did get nerfed deserved it because I haven't actually used those ones but nothing about them jumps out at being nerf worthy to me.
I've always thought that unique weapons were underwhelming and I'd like to see them get bumped up a bit in terms of what they have to offer. I wouldn't mind there being more in the game too.
Obviously at the end of the day they should never be able to beat craftable weapons (since you're investing valuable skill points & in game materials & currency into creating them) but as of now they really are pitiful in what they offer.
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: ShockMonkey on January 06, 2018, 05:04:53 pm
So is expansion out? I am eager to jump back to game again!  :D
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: MirddinEmris on January 06, 2018, 06:21:35 pm
Quote
The one thing I don't like though, which also confused the ever living fuck out of me is that if anything, I was expecting unique weapons to get buffed across the board, not a few getting nerfed.

You are not the only one here thinking that

Quote
So is expansion out?

Nope, just an update to core game with some new features (like map) and changes to core mechanics (mostly good)
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: hilf on January 06, 2018, 07:25:11 pm
The one thing I don't like though, which also confused the ever living fuck out of me is that if anything, I was expecting unique weapons to get buffed across the board, not a few getting nerfed.
Maybe somebody else can let me know why the ones that did get nerfed deserved it because I haven't actually used those ones but nothing about them jumps out at being nerf worthy to me.
I've always thought that unique weapons were underwhelming and I'd like to see them get bumped up a bit in terms of what they have to offer. I wouldn't mind there being more in the game too.
Obviously at the end of the day they should never be able to beat craftable weapons (since you're investing valuable skill points & in game materials & currency into creating them) but as of now they really are pitiful in what they offer.

I'm pretty sure unique weapons are not supposed to match crafted ones, but to exceed auto generated stuff.

We should also not forget weapons have something like level. Low level unique item does not need to be better than high level autogen. Good indicator of item "level" is its durability.
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: MirddinEmris on January 06, 2018, 07:41:41 pm
The one thing I don't like though, which also confused the ever living fuck out of me is that if anything, I was expecting unique weapons to get buffed across the board, not a few getting nerfed.
Maybe somebody else can let me know why the ones that did get nerfed deserved it because I haven't actually used those ones but nothing about them jumps out at being nerf worthy to me.
I've always thought that unique weapons were underwhelming and I'd like to see them get bumped up a bit in terms of what they have to offer. I wouldn't mind there being more in the game too.
Obviously at the end of the day they should never be able to beat craftable weapons (since you're investing valuable skill points & in game materials & currency into creating them) but as of now they really are pitiful in what they offer.

I'm pretty sure unique weapons are not supposed to match crafted ones, but to exceed auto generated stuff.

We should also not forget weapons have something like level. Low level unique item does not need to be better than high level autogen. Good indicator of item "level" is its durability.

Uniques loose to most of the autogen stuff too. They probably shouldn't be more powerful than crafted stuff, at least top tier ones, but the should be at least comparable to mid tier crafted stuff. Crafted stuff already has huge advantage by being exactly what you want, uniques should be at least somewhat comparable in raw numbers. Otherwise they are nothing more than oddities that don't give you any xp. In all my games i can count on one hand amount of times i used unique weapons for something other than utility, and i often want to because they look cool and often have some nifty stuff in them, but then i look at other stuff i can get and just leave them in a locker at SGS or sell them. They are mostly useless.
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: hilf on January 06, 2018, 09:12:19 pm
Some of them provide something autogen loot does not.

H&K chambers 9mm bullets.
Tommy Gun chambers .44s.
Jawbone and Wasteland Hawk have 150% crit damage. Jawbone's crit chance sucks but it does not matter for Deadly Snares or Aimed Shot.
Kukri has 20% crit chance and can cripple its target.
Dragunov shoots twice per turn.
Steyr only needs 5 STR and has extra range.
Mind Cracker cracks minds.


There's actually a comparison of one gun on wiki:
http://www.underrail.com/wiki/index.php?title=Gluck_17

1 more optimal range vs   1 less max damage - i'd rather have range
1% more critical chance vs   1 more AP cost - i'd rather have AP cost, but i'm biased towards cost reductions in video games
10% more critical damage vs   5% less precision bonus - i'd take crit damage; it would be precision but Gluck already has 10%
5 more magazine capacity vs   360 less durability - extra mag capacity without question
1.1 less weight vs   5552 less value - i care very little about 1.1 weight but i don't care at all about value so unique gun wins again

Second most important thing: Neo Luger is of higher quality - 1050 durability vs 1410.
Most important thing: Neo Luger is crafted.


I didn't pick "that one unique that by some miracle happens to be better than crafted weapon", it's first unique i found (if not the only one) that is compared to something on wiki.
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: Bruno on January 06, 2018, 10:03:27 pm
The uniques should be useful if you choose to skip most of the tech skills. I can see using the K&H MP6 submachine gun for example, and skip high INT and gun crafting.
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: Tygrende on January 06, 2018, 10:36:39 pm
I didn't pick "that one unique that by some miracle happens to be better than crafted weapon", it's first unique i found (if not the only one) that is compared to something on wiki.
It's the only detailed comparison between an unique weapon and a comparable crafted version on the wiki. I made it because Gluck 17 seems to be the only weapon that is very comparable to late game craft I personally gravitate towards, rather than being straight-up inferior or offering something unique that crafts don't have.

I think the main problem with unique guns in general is that smart modules are just way too good to pass up. If you look at other uniques, especially unarmed, some of them are pretty decent and can compete with crafts.

For burst weapons (so ARs and SMGs) smart module is pretty much a must have. The high damage bonus on nearly all attacks is so ridiculously good, it easily outclasses even the burst-specific weapon mods such as the muzzle brake, barrel compensator or forward grip.

For sniper rifles, it's what makes them capable of reliably 1-shoting almost everything in the game with Aimed Shot and Snipe. I tried to experiment with a Rapid Spearhead that uses the barrel retractor instead of the smart module, but sacrifcing the 1-shot reliability of Aimed Shot/Snipe for a bit more close range precision is simply not worth it. The only other mod Spearhead can use is an extended magazine, but that's obviously worthless in comparsion.

That leaves us with pistols. For pure pistol builds, smart module is still one of the superior mods, especially on Hammerers to boost Aimed Shot and Execute damage even further. It's also a must have on a silenced 5mm Neo Luger since it deperately needs every bit of bonus damage it can get.

A 9mm Neo Luger that is supposed to be a sidearm rather than the main weapon is pretty much the only firearm in the entire game where smart module might not be the best choice, but it still would be a good choice.
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: ShockMonkey on January 06, 2018, 11:00:29 pm
Quote
Nope, just an update to core game with some new features (like map) and changes to core mechanics (mostly good)

Any idea when its coming? Homepage say early 2017. I guess thats past.  :)
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: MirddinEmris on January 07, 2018, 04:22:21 am
Quote
H&K chambers 9mm bullets.
Tommy Gun chambers .44s.

And who gives a crap?) What does it matter what ammo do they use, really? Especially when we are talking about tommy that has awful stats all across the board.

Quote
Jawbone and Wasteland Hawk have 150% crit damage. Jawbone's crit chance sucks but it does not matter for Deadly Snares or Aimed Shot.

Crit damage is nice, but their base damage doesn't really compare to crafted versions, so the point is really mute. Besides, Hammerer already has 125% crit damage, so the difference in that regard is not that big, while the difference in damage is just insane even without using Smart module. I speak as a guy who played with a character who used pistols without crafting. The Jawbone is the same except it doesn't even have real advantage in crit damage since anatomically aware scopes exist, so even low tier crafted crossbows will have better stats all across the board.

Basically, that was my whole point. Unique weapons often has nifty things like high crit chance/damage, some unique effects and so on, but practically speaking they are loosing because their damage and other stats are so pathetically low.


Quote
Kukri has 20% crit chance and can cripple its target.

But low damage and low crit damage, so it's still better to use crafted.

Quote
Dragunov shoots twice per turn.

Yeah, i give you that, since it's the only way for snipers to shoot twice per turn if they can't craft. Still if we compare it to crafted weapons, it wouldn't be even serious comparison.

Quote
Mind Cracker cracks minds.

It cracks ass. Burning psi points or applying debuffs is absolutely useless for playstyle that involves spending 1-2 hits on average to kill the enemy.

Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: Hazard on January 07, 2018, 09:28:04 am
I'm hoping Styg might give at least some of the existing uniques new special abilities, now that there's functionality for that. We already saw the unique Double-barreled Shotgun in the Expedition gameplay video, which had two abilities, choosing which barrel you want to fire and firing them both at once. The obvious problem with most of the unique weapons is that any special abilities or attacks are probably bound to be pretty arbitrary, which may or may not matter much to Styg.
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: hilf on January 07, 2018, 09:30:29 am
I was comparing unique items to generated ones. I totally agree crafts are better than uniques.

Unique items like Mind Cracker or Kukri might be underperforming due to another problem:

Styg loves damage.
It shows in several places. Weapon damage grows with weapon quality, skill level grows with character level and multiplies weapon damage, attribute points multiply skill level and they grow with character level too.
Second nerf to Taste for Blood did not touch damage at all, it completely removed attack speed instead.
Combo nerf did not touch damage at all but divided stun chance by 5.
Recent buffs to energy/chemical pistols are mostly "throwing damage at the problem". (Attack speed changes for laser and chemguns are in large part unnerfs).
Infused leather got nerfed so leather armors block less damage than before.
Contamination debuff exists.
W2C/JHP bullets exist and were even made craftable so players can use them even when not really needed.
And there's more.


I did a comparison of Syg MPX and autogen Steel Cat (ok, not really it was a crafted Steel Cat with one mod (most autogen have 0 or 1) that can be rolled on generated SMG). Steel Cat had slightly higher quality (durability 2040) and Syg still won:
Slightly lower damage but much narrower damage range;
5% precision + 5% burst vs 10% burst - very close but i slightly prefer 5%+5% because precision works with normal attacks too;
5% more crit damage;
bigger magazine.

Besides, why would i need a crafted or generated weapons (assuming the latter are better then uniques) if unique weapons do totally fine? I've used Syg MPX ona a pistol build in DC and it did fine with standard bullets on new Hard.
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: MirddinEmris on January 07, 2018, 01:51:32 pm
Well, overall you have good points, but

Quote
Besides, why would i need a crafted or generated weapons (assuming the latter are better then uniques) if unique weapons do totally fine? I've used Syg MPX ona a pistol build in DC and it did fine with standard bullets on new Hard.

You need crafted weapons because you create them to specifically suit your needs. When you craft weapons you have MUCH higher flexibility, which is already a pretty big advantage on top of being able to have unique only to crafted qualities (like smart module). Now when you craft stuff, not only you do things you can't without it, you also outpace anything else so much that not having crafting skill on your character by itself can be considered a huge drawback.

Personally i think that most unique weapons should be on the level of q100 crafted stuff in damage at least to be at least somewhat relevant.
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: Fenix on January 07, 2018, 04:13:02 pm
Or should have high or higher damage but less flexibility?
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: Mariner666 on January 09, 2018, 01:14:40 pm

Quote
Dragunov shoots twice per turn.

Yeah, i give you that, since it's the only way for snipers to shoot twice per turn if they can't craft. Still if we compare it to crafted weapons, it wouldn't be even serious comparison.

Actually, not only way.
You can craft Spearhead sniper rifle with Rapid Reloader.
AP cost will be 24.
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: MirddinEmris on January 09, 2018, 01:42:36 pm
Quote
Yeah, i give you that, since it's the only way for snipers to shoot twice per turn if they can't craft.

Quote
Actually, not only way.
You can craft Spearhead sniper rifle with Rapid Reloader.

(http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/518/339/5e2.jpg)
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: Phyroks on January 29, 2018, 11:33:33 am
Yeah would like to hear something about current plans for expansion release, even if its bad news :)
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: UnLimiTeD on January 31, 2018, 12:41:54 pm
Clever. By not showing a year, the statement is always true.
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: Styg on February 02, 2018, 10:58:35 am
Clever. By not showing a year, the statement is always true.

It's probably going to be released in [current_year].
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: Shoutaxeror on February 17, 2018, 07:16:37 am
Hello there, I wanted to know if every core city faction sell advanced catalyzing belt. I know that Harlan sells it and you can gain it from the acid hunter though but I can't remember if you can get it before finding Cornell. Thanks!
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: hilf on February 17, 2018, 09:27:37 am
Gort from Junkyard sometimes sells it.
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: Yonaiker on February 18, 2018, 09:08:50 pm
I saw Fixer selling it once, but it was after completing the armadillo circuit quest and I was like level 11 in that time.
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: Fjodik on March 01, 2018, 03:13:41 pm
Hey Styg, It has been almost three months without any development news, can we expect some update soon? :-)
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: Hazard on March 01, 2018, 04:08:02 pm
Every time I see the Development Log sub-forum show up green I get all excited, only to be disappointed when it's just a new comment on an old thread.

It's torture.  :P
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: TheAverageGortsby on March 01, 2018, 08:52:33 pm
Every time I see the Development Log sub-forum show up green I get all excited, only to be disappointed when it's just a new comment on an old thread.

It's torture.  :P
Styg just posted on Steam "We're still working on the DLC. There's going to be at least a couple more dev logs before it's done."

Sounds like it will continue to be torture for several more months at least  :'(
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: Hazard on March 01, 2018, 10:57:20 pm
Well, shit. I'm guessing release won't be during this half of the year then, unless Styg goes nuts and starts putting out monthly dev logs.
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: reinhark on March 02, 2018, 12:38:27 am
I am not allowed to say much, but some things do seem to be being tested at the moment.(as of 1.0.3.20)

I do not think we are close to being completion(then again, most of the expansion is not accessible), but I do see signs of progression.

Take that with loads of salt.

On the side note, I command load of work done on the existing game. Current patch have added, replaced or buffed dialogues.

P.S: while we are talking about new content, may I ask why core city does not have its own internal map?
Equal sized city like foundry have its own map.
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: LightningMonk on March 02, 2018, 05:15:37 pm
I'm gonna be a bit less grandiose with my questioning and just ask if the main branch is going to be patched soon, with all the new stuff. (Sorry for everyone who expected news from this thread bump).
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: reinhark on March 03, 2018, 01:03:06 am
And now that we have removed cooldown for the hacking and lockpicking, could we remove the cooldown from the last crime - pick pocketing?
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: destroyor on March 03, 2018, 04:17:17 am
And now that we have removed cooldown for the hacking and lockpicking, could we remove the cooldown from the last crime - pick pocketing?

But how would that work tho?
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: reinhark on March 03, 2018, 06:11:19 am
And now that we have removed cooldown for the hacking and lockpicking, could we remove the cooldown from the last crime - pick pocketing?

But how would that work tho?
Um, Make it so you no longer have to wait for 5 seconds to pick pocket 2nd person after you finish pick pocketing 1st person?
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: drealmer7 on March 03, 2018, 05:15:52 pm
not having to wait to pickpocket sounds against what pickpocketing is like, one would potentially draw too much attention by repeatedly performing the act, a cooldown makes sense to re-establish your nonchalance before going in for another grab

perhaps once you hit lockpicking 150 a feat could be unlocked that removes the cooldown, since at that point you're SUPERskilled at pickpocketing
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: reinhark on March 17, 2018, 08:58:57 am
not having to wait to pickpocket sounds against what pickpocketing is like, one would potentially draw too much attention by repeatedly performing the act, a cooldown makes sense to re-establish your nonchalance before going in for another grab

So is picking locks and hacking, but I don't see people complaining about those.
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: drealmer7 on March 17, 2018, 06:28:51 pm
not having to wait to pickpocket sounds against what pickpocketing is like, one would potentially draw too much attention by repeatedly performing the act, a cooldown makes sense to re-establish your nonchalance before going in for another grab

So is picking locks and hacking, but I don't see people complaining about those.
no, lockpicking and hacking involve interacting with inanimate objects, pickpocketing is with a conscious being
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: reinhark on March 18, 2018, 02:35:44 am
not having to wait to pickpocket sounds against what pickpocketing is like, one would potentially draw too much attention by repeatedly performing the act, a cooldown makes sense to re-establish your nonchalance before going in for another grab

So is picking locks and hacking, but I don't see people complaining about those.
no, lockpicking and hacking involve interacting with inanimate objects, pickpocketing is with a conscious being
All those activities trigger hostilities from other faction when get caught. Why should we have cooldown removed from those?
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: TheAverageGortsby on March 18, 2018, 06:28:04 am
All those activities trigger hostilities from other faction when get caught. Why should we have cooldown removed from those?
As a side effect of making the right choice about all non-hostility-provoking hacking and lockpicking.  There are *a lot* of locks to crack and when you're exploring the world it's often the case you get several very close to each other.  In a perfect world, maybe you'd get a debuff after doing potentially hostility-provoking lockpicking/hacking/pickpocketing that would prevent you from doing those things again to give the game time to "catch up" and make allowances for what you've done.  But there is no non-hostile pickpocketing, right?  Everyone hates it.  There's a lot of non-hostile lock cracking.  So that's the reasonable cause, I think.
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: reinhark on March 18, 2018, 08:26:12 am
All those activities trigger hostilities from other faction when get caught. Why should we have cooldown removed from those?
As a side effect of making the right choice about all non-hostility-provoking hacking and lockpicking.  There are *a lot* of locks to crack and when you're exploring the world it's often the case you get several very close to each other.  In a perfect world, maybe you'd get a debuff after doing potentially hostility-provoking lockpicking/hacking/pickpocketing that would prevent you from doing those things again to give the game time to "catch up" and make allowances for what you've done.  But there is no non-hostile pickpocketing, right?  Everyone hates it.  There's a lot of non-hostile lock cracking.  So that's the reasonable cause, I think.

All pickpocketing that does not make you directly hostile to the NPC is non-hostile pickpocketing.

There are lots of non-hostile pickpocketing.

Your argument is invalid.

If you disagree, please provide reason *why* (sensible non NPC aggro) pickpocketing is any different than a neutral locked chest in the middle of the city.
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: TheAverageGortsby on March 18, 2018, 09:25:43 am
All pickpocketing that does not make you directly hostile to the NPC is non-hostile pickpocketing.

There are lots of non-hostile pickpocketing.

Your argument is invalid.

If you disagree, please provide reason *why* (sensible non NPC aggro) pickpocketing is any different than a neutral locked chest in the middle of the city.
<laugh>  No.  Your definition is ridiculous.  By that tortured logic, if nobody sees you commit murder, it's not really murder because nobody is mad at you for it.

When you pickpocket, you build up suspicion.  Suspicion is the threshold where you can safely pick pockets, but even somewhere relatively safe and friendly like SGS, if you are caught pickpocketing (by exceeding the suspicion threshold), you're getting shot in the face.  Out in the wilderness of the UnderRail tunnels, you even need to be stealthed to get that far.  If your pickpocketing is generating suspicion, then it's hostile pickpocketing, since once you're caught, the NPC will try to make you stop.

Now, I'm certainly no Pickpocketing expert.  Maybe there are places where you can pick pockets, exceed the suspicion threshold, and nobody cares.  THAT - and only that - would be non-hostile pickpocketing because the target genuinely doesn't care that you've taken something from them.  So in those cases, you'd be doing non-hostile pickpocketing.  If such cases exist.

So pickpocketing is different than a locked neutral chest in the middle of the city because people can "catch" you opening the chest and they don't care, but if they catch you stealing from them, they do.  One is inherently hostile to them, the other not.  And because there are many (perhaps even a majority - I haven't counted but almost none of the locks outside population centers are owned, and many within are still not owned) situations where a lock is non-aggro-generating, but few situations where pickpocketing is non-aggro-generating, the skills and use cases are different enough that applying the same standard is disingenuous.
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: reinhark on March 18, 2018, 01:02:18 pm
<laugh>  No.  Your definition is ridiculous.  By that tortured logic, if nobody sees you commit murder, it's not really murder because nobody is mad at you for it.

When you pickpocket, you build up suspicion.  Suspicion is the threshold where you can safely pick pockets, but even somewhere relatively safe and friendly like SGS, if you are caught pickpocketing (by exceeding the suspicion threshold), you're getting shot in the face.  Out in the wilderness of the UnderRail tunnels, you even need to be stealthed to get that far.  If your pickpocketing is generating suspicion, then it's hostile pickpocketing, since once you're caught, the NPC will try to make you stop.

Now, I'm certainly no Pickpocketing expert.  Maybe there are places where you can pick pockets, exceed the suspicion threshold, and nobody cares.  THAT - and only that - would be non-hostile pickpocketing because the target genuinely doesn't care that you've taken something from them.  So in those cases, you'd be doing non-hostile pickpocketing.  If such cases exist.

So pickpocketing is different than a locked neutral chest in the middle of the city because people can "catch" you opening the chest and they don't care, but if they catch you stealing from them, they do.  One is inherently hostile to them, the other not.  And because there are many (perhaps even a majority - I haven't counted but almost none of the locks outside population centers are owned, and many within are still not owned) situations where a lock is non-aggro-generating, but few situations where pickpocketing is non-aggro-generating, the skills and use cases are different enough that applying the same standard is disingenuous.

Tortured logic that is defined in the zone control itself?
http://www.underrail.com/wiki/index.php?title=Zone_Control

But let's get back to the main issue and agree to disagree. So, inherit hostility. That is the crux of the issue, yes?

So why do we not have a cooldown for looting(taking items in/out of) other people's property? If they can catch you do it, You get shot in the face. Therefore it is inherently hostile to them. I think you should support having cooldown for hostile looting, yes? (Or cooldown for all looting, if you prefer that)
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: TheAverageGortsby on March 18, 2018, 02:16:23 pm
But let's get back to the main issue and agree to disagree. So, inherit hostility. That is the crux of the issue, yes?

So why do we not have a cooldown for looting(taking items in/out of) other people's property? If they can catch you do it, You get shot in the face. Therefore it is inherently hostile to them. I think you should support having cooldown for hostile looting, yes? (Or cooldown for all looting, if you prefer that)
Well, I don't think inherent hostility is the crux of the issue.  I believe the issue is, "why is pickpocketing treated differently than hacking or lockpicking".  I think inherent hostility is the reason why you can't apply the same standards to pickpocketing that you can to hack/lock.

My first post about this was that removing the cooldown on hack/lock was correct.  It was correct because the waiting period forced on the player by the game was undesirable, but that argument was only valid because in many - perhaps most - cases, the hack/lock action didn't produce any need for the game world to react.  The cooldown provides time for the game to respond to player action. 

So, again, I'm not sure I can find your reasoning sound.  I'm not in favor of a cooldown on looting in general, because forcing a player to wait for what will usually look like no good reason isn't fun at all, and good game design should worry a lot about what's fun, a lot about what's practical, and less about what's realistic.  That said, I could certainly imagine situations where a cooldown period could be implemented and wouldn't be terribly harmful - for example, if the take all action worked and provided the same short cooldown (5s perhaps, like pickpocketing does?), it would rarely be a bother.  Your cooldown is target to target, anyway, not item to item so there's not so much difference there.  And, much like I said in my earlier post, you're comparing very different things here so applying a similar standard is a bad idea - looting is not an action comparable to hack/lock or pickpocket, which are skills.

Like I suggested, in an ideal world perhaps popping a lock, picking a pocket, or (adding to my previous musing based on your suggestion) taking an owned item would put a debuff of some sort on the play which would prevent further such action and give the game world time to react.  But those sounds like they would be pretty substantial changes to the game code, and I also was just musing on potential alternatives and haven't really thought if that would be in practice any use.
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: reinhark on March 18, 2018, 03:53:51 pm
But let's get back to the main issue and agree to disagree. So, inherit hostility. That is the crux of the issue, yes?

So why do we not have a cooldown for looting(taking items in/out of) other people's property? If they can catch you do it, You get shot in the face. Therefore it is inherently hostile to them. I think you should support having cooldown for hostile looting, yes? (Or cooldown for all looting, if you prefer that)
Well, I don't think inherent hostility is the crux of the issue.  I believe the issue is, "why is pickpocketing treated differently than hacking or lockpicking".  I think inherent hostility is the reason why you can't apply the same standards to pickpocketing that you can to hack/lock.

My first post about this was that removing the cooldown on hack/lock was correct.  It was correct because the waiting period forced on the player by the game was undesirable, but that argument was only valid because in many - perhaps most - cases, the hack/lock action didn't produce any need for the game world to react.  The cooldown provides time for the game to respond to player action. 
You have a good point on making the game respond to player action. However, in most cases pickpocketing does not make the NPC react to your actions. If you do - presumably by aggroing them - you don't need to use pickpocket. You punch them and take their stuff which is much more efficient.(and you probably can if you invested in useful skills instead of pick pocketing)

This leads me to conclude that pickpocketing is about looting limited items while not actually making game react to you. It is about taking loot out of npc pocket box without killing all of them. A skill that requires significant amount of investment and not even essential for combat or oddities. Pickpocketing within suspension limit is just suspension, not a hostility therefore it should be treated like opening a box.

Do you think people will care if Styg patched pickpocketing to remove this inherit hostility?(Just make it so you can't steal anymore if it will trigger hostility) I think what you are advocating is to nitpick on the situation that no pickpocket thieves wants to happen and use it to punish them for suspension system that does not exist. Or worse, punish players for the mandatory system that is "inherit hostility" which only serves to hinder pickpockets. No pickpocket wants to start their battle with AP spent and hands in someone's pocket.
How can you justify punishing(cooldown) players for punishment(inherit hostility/allowing users to trigger hostility via pickpocket) already given?
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: TheAverageGortsby on March 18, 2018, 07:25:54 pm
Do you think people will care if Styg patched pickpocketing to remove this inherit hostility?(Just make it so you can't steal anymore if it will trigger hostility) I think what you are advocating is to nitpick on the situation that no pickpocket thieves wants to happen and use it to punish them for suspension system that does not exist. Or worse, punish players for the mandatory system that is "inherit hostility" which only serves to hinder pickpockets. No pickpocket wants to start their battle with AP spent and hands in someone's pocket.
How can you justify punishing(cooldown) players for punishment(inherit hostility/allowing users to trigger hostility via pickpocket) already given?
I feel like the language barrier is hurting us here. I wish I spoke...German, is it? But I don't, so thanks for doing this in English.  Alright, I'll try to be super clear.

Theses:
1) Pickpocketing is always a hostile action.  Proof: If an NPC will see you do it, they will try to stop you.
2) Hostile actions may require game response.  Proof: NPCs who were previously not hostile, become hostile, when player is noticed doing a hostile action.
3) Pickpocketing provides value in exchange for skill investment.  Proof: Items which can only be obtained by killing & looting are available without the consequences of killing.
4) Skills which provide value have costs, and should have them.  Proof: Hacking requires a special tool, plus consumable batteries; lockpicking requires consumable lockpicks.  Pickpocketing requires time.
5) Skills in UnderRail have success thresholds.  Proof: locks have difficulty rating.  Picking pockets can fail to begin if skill is too low.

Conclusions: Pickpocketing has a special cost of time that lockpicking and hacking do not have.  Pickpocketing and lockpicking have special costs of tools and consumables that pickpocketing does not have.  Pickpocketing is a more hostile action, overall, than hacking or lockpicking.  So it is not wise to hold pickpocketing to the same standard as lockpicking/hacking.  Suspicion is not a punishment to pickpockets - it is the essential limiting mechanic.  Suspicion is not a punishment but actually a reward mechanic for the skill because additional investment reduces suspicion per item.

Additional assumptions: Just because you are not caught, that does not mean your action was not hostile.  Hostility =/= combat although it may lead to it.

And to be clear, if you just can't pick the pocket any more, that in no way changes the inherent hostility of picking pockets.  It just makes it impossible to be caught, which would be removing consequences from skill use.  I have no idea if people would like that.
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: reinhark on March 19, 2018, 01:39:37 am
Do you think people will care if Styg patched pickpocketing to remove this inherit hostility?(Just make it so you can't steal anymore if it will trigger hostility) I think what you are advocating is to nitpick on the situation that no pickpocket thieves wants to happen and use it to punish them for suspension system that does not exist. Or worse, punish players for the mandatory system that is "inherit hostility" which only serves to hinder pickpockets. No pickpocket wants to start their battle with AP spent and hands in someone's pocket.
How can you justify punishing(cooldown) players for punishment(inherit hostility/allowing users to trigger hostility via pickpocket) already given?
I feel like the language barrier is hurting us here. I wish I spoke...German, is it? But I don't, so thanks for doing this in English.  Alright, I'll try to be super clear.

Theses:
1) Pickpocketing is always a hostile action.  Proof: If an NPC will see you do it, they will try to stop you.
2) Hostile actions may require game response.  Proof: NPCs who were previously not hostile, become hostile, when player is noticed doing a hostile action.
3) Pickpocketing provides value in exchange for skill investment.  Proof: Items which can only be obtained by killing & looting are available without the consequences of killing.
4) Skills which provide value have costs, and should have them.  Proof: Hacking requires a special tool, plus consumable batteries; lockpicking requires consumable lockpicks.  Pickpocketing requires time.
5) Skills in UnderRail have success thresholds.  Proof: locks have difficulty rating.  Picking pockets can fail to begin if skill is too low.

Conclusions: Pickpocketing has a special cost of time that lockpicking and hacking do not have.  Pickpocketing and lockpicking have special costs of tools and consumables that pickpocketing does not have.  Pickpocketing is a more hostile action, overall, than hacking or lockpicking.  So it is not wise to hold pickpocketing to the same standard as lockpicking/hacking.  Suspicion is not a punishment to pickpockets - it is the essential limiting mechanic.  Suspicion is not a punishment but actually a reward mechanic for the skill because additional investment reduces suspicion per item.

Additional assumptions: Just because you are not caught, that does not mean your action was not hostile.  Hostility =/= combat although it may lead to it.

And to be clear, if you just can't pick the pocket any more, that in no way changes the inherent hostility of picking pockets.  It just makes it impossible to be caught, which would be removing consequences from skill use.  I have no idea if people would like that.

Then remove hostile triggering part of pickpocketing too. This makes pickpocket literally non hostile action. (you would not be able to pick pocket above your suspension limit)
I am sure many people wouldn't mind as they seldom used that particular function intentionally. That was the main argument of your case, yes? By design, unless you are cheating you would be unable to trigger hostility using pickpocket what so ever.
So 1. Pickpocket(after the proposed change) is by definition cannot be a hostile action. The game itself will make sure you cannot be caught doing it.
2. Therefore it never requires game response.

I think it is a better option. After all, if you want to go past the suspesion limit, you probably have to kill that guy. You would have much better chance of killing that guy under your terms - not in melee, unstealthed and AP spent on pickpocketing for example. 

Edit: and as for #4, I completely agree. Furthermore I think it is fair to being back cooldown for lockpicking and hacking since they have advantage of not being a hostile action. Those have much, much much greater variety and value of loot and extra contents only accessible through those skills. Why should it just be monetary investment? We should also make players invest time into them. I think it would be fair to make them even longer than before considering how much value those skills provide.
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: TheAverageGortsby on March 19, 2018, 07:11:15 am
Then remove hostile triggering part of pickpocketing too.
Remove the hostility of stealing?  That's ridiculous.  If you do that you may as well remove all sense of ownership for everything in the game, which is also ridiculous but not worse than removing the inherent hostility of stealing - which is what pickpocketing is.  Stealing.  Unlike opening locks which aren't owned.

And no, you've again completely misunderstood what I'm saying, and cumulatively so, to boot.  You're intentionally ignoring the simple points i'm making, presumably because you so desperately want pickpocketing to be more simple a tool.  Your suggestions just don't make any sense in a game designed to be fun or internally consistent.  You would neuter a skill (pickpocketing) and make the entire game slower and more boring (increased delay in lock skills) just so...what? You wouldn't have to think about pickpocketing and it would just be an inventory for characters who bought into the skill?  Ridiculous.

By your suggestion, pickpocketing would no longer benefit from skill investment beyond threshold clearance.  That would have the advantage of making it more like other non-combat skills in the game, but it would also have the disadvantage of making it more like other non-combat skills in the game.  You would just have an NPC inventory to choose from, and a set value of what could be taken.  This deprives the player of agency by removing their ability to improve the amount of items stealable (the effect of the skill, and thus the effect of the build).  It also would put a fairly large burden on the devs to rebalance the inventory and/or pickpocketing threshold of every pickpocketable NPC.  No, it appears that what you want is to prevent players from being allowed to make good pickpockets, so that everyone who is a pickpocket is instead an utterly average one.  That's terrible design.
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: reinhark on March 19, 2018, 10:53:03 am
Then remove hostile triggering part of pickpocketing too.
Remove the hostility of stealing?  That's ridiculous.  If you do that you may as well remove all sense of ownership for everything in the game, which is also ridiculous but not worse than removing the inherent hostility of stealing - which is what pickpocketing is.  Stealing.  Unlike opening locks which aren't owned.

And no, you've again completely misunderstood what I'm saying, and cumulatively so, to boot.  You're intentionally ignoring the simple points i'm making, presumably because you so desperately want pickpocketing to be more simple a tool.  Your suggestions just don't make any sense in a game designed to be fun or internally consistent.  You would neuter a skill (pickpocketing) and make the entire game slower and more boring (increased delay in lock skills) just so...what? You wouldn't have to think about pickpocketing and it would just be an inventory for characters who bought into the skill?  Ridiculous.

By your suggestion, pickpocketing would no longer benefit from skill investment beyond threshold clearance.  That would have the advantage of making it more like other non-combat skills in the game, but it would also have the disadvantage of making it more like other non-combat skills in the game.  You would just have an NPC inventory to choose from, and a set value of what could be taken.  This deprives the player of agency by removing their ability to improve the amount of items stealable (the effect of the skill, and thus the effect of the build).  It also would put a fairly large burden on the devs to rebalance the inventory and/or pickpocketing threshold of every pickpocketable NPC.  No, it appears that what you want is to prevent players from being allowed to make good pickpockets, so that everyone who is a pickpocket is instead an utterly average one.  That's terrible design.
For first paragraph, no. By definition it is no longer a hostile action. I am not so sure what you are getting at. Item ownership? Then how come you can trigger hostility from them by punching them in the face and take all their stuff? Is that not bad design then, allowing player to loot everything from NPC? Pick pocket is *just* another way of giving player more choice to take everyone's stuff. Like other stealing skills and punching people in the face.
(And yes. I do trigger partial hostility from NPC by punching them in the face because I know those kills are consequence free. I assume you have not tried it before?)

Second paragraph: I could say the same to you. But you don't see me accusing you making game slower and unfun by giving pickpocket cooldown. You think that only pickpocket should have cooldown, I think we should bring back cooldown back for the locks and hacks. You said it yourself that skill need investment. I just think it is not enough for locks and hacks. And that neutering comment. HAHA, that is one way to look at it. Either you have misunderstood what I said or you think installing safety on the mechanic is neutring them. Like installing worker protection on the circular saw and reducing its capacity to cut user's limbs off counts as "Neutering". You could provide as how ability to trigger hostility from pickpocket is beneficial though. I doubt you can.

Third paragraph display that you really misunderstood what I said. I will try to keep it simple.
1. Keep the same pickpocket system.
2. Player will be unable to steal an item from NPC when transparent bar becomes red.
 
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: ShockMonkey on March 30, 2018, 04:54:19 pm
Any news on expansion???
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: Twiglard on April 03, 2018, 04:23:48 am
Then remove hostile triggering part of pickpocketing too.
Remove the hostility of stealing?  That's ridiculous.  If you do that you may as well remove all sense of ownership for everything in the game, which is also ridiculous but not worse than removing the inherent hostility of stealing - which is what pickpocketing is.  Stealing.  Unlike opening locks which aren't owned.

By your suggestion, pickpocketing would no longer benefit from skill investment beyond threshold clearance.  That would have the advantage of making it more like other non-combat skills in the game, but it would also have the disadvantage of making it more like other non-combat skills in the game.  You would just have an NPC inventory to choose from, and a set value of what could be taken.  This deprives the player of agency by removing their ability to improve the amount of items stealable (the effect of the skill, and thus the effect of the build).  It also would put a fairly large burden on the devs to rebalance the inventory and/or pickpocketing threshold of every pickpocketable NPC.  No, it appears that what you want is to prevent players from being allowed to make good pickpockets, so that everyone who is a pickpocket is instead an utterly average one.  That's terrible design.

Exceeding the suspicion meter is clearly labelled in the user interface. It's a user interface matter, not personal property semantics or politics. I believe the original point was to prevent the user from shooting themselves in the foot right in the user interface.

Then again I could be wrong, stealing always looked like a waste of levelup points. Wish it was derived from stealth and lockpicking instead.
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: ciox on April 13, 2018, 12:35:43 pm
I also had the idea that the UI could just prevent you from taking items that you aren't good enough to steal, that's how it works in Thief for example.

Though honestly faster saving (including autosaving during transitions) would help with a lot of these issues where something happens and you want to reload, what does the team think about trying to add multi-threaded saving? Basically just use a thread to copy the savedata to RAM and process it and write it to disk, so that the normal game thread is left alone and you can play while autosaving/saving.
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: Fenix on April 14, 2018, 01:51:34 am
in Thief for example.

In which?
Title: Re: Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13
Post by: ciox on April 16, 2018, 05:57:05 pm
in Thief for example.

In which?

All of the good ones, which is 1 and 2, trying to pickpocket an AI that's actually even slightly aware of you will not work, but it won't alert them to your exact position either.