Underrail Forum
Underrail => General => Topic started by: Altos on December 12, 2017, 03:17:15 am
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I figured that it would be nice for us to have a place where we can post about how much the new difficulty is wrecking us, and maybe have a place where players can go (outside the Dev Log) to get some tips & tricks to conquer the new mode.
So far, the only build that I've had time to try is a 3/10/7/3/7/3/7 (original allotment at lvl 1) pure SMG build on Oddity mode, and I'm fairly confident that it's impossible for me to even beat Depot A with it. xD
I knew from the beginning that it was going to be a train-wreck, since it's a very fragile build early on, but I wanted to try it out anyway. I didn't think it would be this bad, though.
Presently, I'm at level 3 and I can't even kill all of the psi beetles and save Newton. :P The little buggers gang up on me and I'm dead in two turns. Every enemy takes at least two full bursts to kill, and I'm just going through my 7.62 ammo like crazy. Totally unsustainable in the long run. Just to clear the 8 azuridae in Newton's building requires something like 300 7.62 bullets fired from my puny SMG because I can't afford to buy one. :P Junkyard is of little help, either.
And don't even get me started on Silent Isle. My boy Broderick decided that it would be a good idea to shoot at the psi beetles for some weird reason, and then he aggro'd over the Goliath, which promptly used every psi skill in the book to wreck him in 2 turns. Dumbass. :P It would have been hilarious if it didn't leave me trapped on the island.
So, yeah, 3 CON SMG Oddity is a no-go for Dominating mode. I think even with 7+ CON it would be unsustainable. The ammo requirement is just too much for burst builds when the enemies have soooo much HP. Maybe if I ground some levels off of the Rathounds long enough to get Commando and Spec Ops (on Classic, of course), I MIGHT be able to beat Depot A, but I would surely crash and burn in DC if I ever made it that far.
Granted, a lot of my issues probably came from the build itself and the fact that I'm definitely not the best Underrail player in the world, but hey, it sounded more interesting than a LoC psi build. ;)
What about you guys? How is the new difficulty treating you so far? Has anyone beat it yet? (looking at you, destroyor :P)
I expect that, if anyone does end up beating it, it'll be with a sniper build or a LoC psi build. Or maybe a crit brawler, if you can survive the early game?
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Well when you name drop me like that ... :P
Anyway yeah the new dominating difficulty changed a lot of things and rendered a lot of old tricks obsolete.
Lower caliber weapons like 5mm SMG just won't cut it anymore, and you can no longer steamroll people with low tier grenades (due to NPC health increase and their higher evasion). The removal of INT+2 junkyard surprise buff means you can no longer rush crafting right from the start (even with INT 5 ~ 7 char). I'm not sure if I just have bad RNG or there's been a component quality adjustments but you can't craft a super tactical vest that will block all incoming bullet damage before Depot A. In fact, my tactical vest's mech threshold (10) seems to be useless so far ... maybe I should consider switching.
I started an energy weapons char and I've never used so much bear traps in my life. Quick tinkering + bear traps + incendiary/frag grenades + abuse LOS (usually in a room, micromanage trapped enemy health so I don't kill him before my quick tinkering cool down) is a must. Obviously you won't get an energy weapon right from the start so I used a 7.62 Jaguar SMG + .44 Hammerer pistol for my early game.
I had to use unlimited weight cheat using cheat engine because bear traps are so heavy. My justification is this: this is exactly the same as if I just run back to SGS every time I'm out of bear traps and slowly walk back to my original location - no point.
Right now I'm no where close to beating the game - I'm at Core city faction second quest trying to rush the crafting benches.
I get the infused leather nerf now (but I still think it hurts dodge/evasion build way too much). This is because Ancient Rathound are now cannon fodder and it's very easy to farm high quality leather early. This is both good news and bad news for brawler/psi monk as you can get good leather gloves early, but your ultimate damage potential is much lower now.
If I have to bet money on the best build to beat dominating difficulty it would be some sort of sniper/psi sniper w/ quick tinkering. Early game is a problem for every build because Rathound and Rathound Alpha rush you with their sheer numbers. Psi build will just run of of psi point early game. I think sledgehammer build is possibly the worst build for this difficulty, as NPC have a 30% increase in dodge/evasion. When you missed a hammer swing you are fuck, especially early game when you only get 2 swings.
Sorry for the rumbling. How about you guys? What's your thought/comment/rant for the new dominating difficulty?
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I'm trying out the new energy weapons options. Trying it with a CON 3 character, won't be surprised if I get dead ended eventually, but so far I'm getting by thanks to abuse of bear traps and quite a bit of reloading. Never played an energy weapons char before and (now) enjoying it quite a bit. A couple more free feats would be nice.
DOMINATING is great, though I'm not sure I'll play on it all the time. Grinding down high HP enemies is one part I'm not crazy about, although at the same time I'm glad "alpha strike out of stealth" got an effective nerf.
I got through Depot A without that much trouble (to me it didn't get near as much of a difficulty buff as some other places) and then ran around cherry picking some easy fights and picking up easy XP around Core City and Foundry. Saw a new and interesting area in the tunnels near Core City that I was not capable of handling just yet. Hit Level 12 and off to do Rail Crossing. Looking forward to what's changed there.
Silent Isle went out of control almost immediately, which was awesome. Watching that happen was one of my favorite moments in Underrail. I held out quite a while, Captain Nitwit less so. I probably should have gone back before now, it may be too easy at L 12. However, I don't think it will be a cakewalk, especially not with the req to keep the captain alive.
All in all, this is great stuff. Would have been happy to pay for it. Styg may need to put some points in Mercantile.
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I'm jelous already lol.
Feel urge to abandon my hammer build, but must resist! :D
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These new, random encounters, can they happen on all difficulties? Have you seen any yet, and where can they appear??
I hope I will meet some on normal difficulty as well.
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I started an energy weapons char and I've never used so much bear traps in my life. Quick tinkering + bear traps + incendiary/frag grenades + abuse LOS (usually in a room, micromanage trapped enemy health so I don't kill him before my quick tinkering cool down) is a must. Obviously you won't get an energy weapon right from the start so I used a 7.62 Jaguar SMG + .44 Hammerer pistol for my early game.
I had to use unlimited weight cheat using cheat engine because bear traps are so heavy. My justification is this: this is exactly the same as if I just run back to SGS every time I'm out of bear traps and slowly walk back to my original location - no point.
Yeah, I've been using bear traps like crazy, too. I was finally able to get past the Newton quest with them, but without quick tinkering it's very difficult to place down enough bear traps to immobilize all of the enemies before they notice me. Not to mention the issues of weight and price. I'm already spending all my money on bullets, as it is.
Crowd control skills in general are clearly a must for Dominating. I must be the patron saint of incendiary grenades at this point; it's pretty much my only rathound repellent. :P
Also, is it just me, or is the oddity drop rate severely reduced from what it was? It has become very difficult for me to level up in the early game.
Even with bear traps and all the incendiary grenades in the world, I still doubt that SMG is viable for Dominating, especially on Oddity. Perhaps someone with more skill, time, and patience than me could do it, but I sure as hell can't. ;)
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Molotovs are nearly a necessity now. Especially for rathounds, but in a lot of other scenarios too.
On that note, a little news update: my son was able to do Silent Isle before Depot A. Showed me a screen of the carnage. Pretty awesome.
I'm not sure about the oddity drop rates. It did take a long time to get all my rathound ears, but this has happened before. Other drops seemed normal-ish.
I had a random encounter with a mad scientist in Core City, responded adventurously and (spoilers redacted). Fun little thing, we'll see what else pops up.
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These new, random encounters, can they happen on all difficulties? Have you seen any yet, and where can they appear??
I hope I will meet some on normal difficulty as well.
On Hard, I met 2 Ironheads on the way from SGS to GMS, in a location previously occupied only by rathounds. Maybe it was a random encounter.
I know i'm not really worthy to post in this elite thread for truly hardcore players since i play on Hard but i did not want to leave this question unanswered :)
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These new, random encounters, can they happen on all difficulties? Have you seen any yet, and where can they appear??
I hope I will meet some on normal difficulty as well.
On Hard, I met 2 Ironheads on the way from SGS to GMS, in a location previously occupied only by rathounds. Maybe it was a random encounter.
I know i'm not really worthy to post in this elite thread for truly hardcore players since i play on Hard but i did not want to leave this question unanswered :)
Hey, thanks a lot for answering! :) I love this new feature as it will spice things up and add some unpredictability.
I'll be playing on normal (Strict Ironman) and hope to see some random encounters too.
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Molotovs are nearly a necessity now. Especially for rathounds, but in a lot of other scenarios too.
I haven't used a single molotov so far, I'm inside Depot A right now. Basic frag grenades are still enough to insta-kill normal rathounds regardless of how numerous they are and take a good chunk of alpha's HP.
Playing a sniper/pistol build, no quick tinkering, no trap abuse (I do use them occasionally, but no more than I would on Hard), no cheat engine, etc. The only thing I kind of "abuse" are doors. For example, I saved Newton by letting a single psi beetle wander inside a room, close the door, kill him, repeat until all are dead. In most cases it's easy enough to sneak past groups I'm not able to tackle yet, at least so far.
Oddity drops seem perfectly fine. I would say they are even better considering how many enemies there are, I never maxed beetle brains so early.
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I am using my Hybrid PSI/Sniper/Stealth character for another playthrough and this build did well in Hard mode though it is a bit weak until you have Premeditation and Snipe.
As someone who loves to sneak past enemies I feel this is a mixed bag especially in Depot A. There is just too much now and it is almost impossible to skip combat. While killing isolated targets is this builds forte, it is of little use here due to the insane amount of enemies alongside the increased damage and HP and limited ways to isolate targets to take them out one by one.
I am fine with the increased HP and damage. I am also fine so far with the new monsters like the new PSI beetle which is a huge challenge.
But the stupidly high amount of enemies without giving sneaky builds additional routes to evade them makes me question at least that part of the difficulty.
Alongside Depot A this also applies to the abandoned Warehouse behind the Mushroom Cave with Newton in it. It takes a lot of patience to lure the psi beetles into the starting room to close the door and then killing them one by one which is the only way to defeat them.
I said I was fine with the new monsters but I urge you, Styg, to remove PSI-cognitive Interruption from the new psi beetle. It basically one shots any PSI user unless the build goes max Con, or maybe you can survive it at very high levels.
Also giving PSI beetles TK punch instead of Cryokinesis when there are two of them is imho total overkill with everything else included. If we could at least get energy shields around that time it might be doable but as it stands, this is imho too much for basically all builds. By the time the stun wears of you are dead meat, almost guaranteed.
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Not to mention the issues of weight and price. I'm already spending all my money on bullets, as it is.
There's a solution to your money problem. If you look at coslie's excellent research:
http://steamcommunity.com/app/250520/discussions/0/1291817837625196247/
You'll see at 0 mercantile you are paying roughly 2X for crafting components. You can make money by buying + crafting tact vests, riot gears, metal armors, chem pistols, pistols, and xbows.
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Trying out the 3/7/4/3/3/10/10 no-stealth psi crafter that worked so nicely on Hard. It doesn't work as nicely on Dominating. Some things I've noticed:
I can't do without Force User. Those extra two turns of protection, when I've gotten myself in a corner or against a wall, are just too valuable. I use a whole lot more skills and items in combat (as, presumably, does most everyone else on this difficulty) so two more turns of psi regen and cooldown ticks are immensely powerful. I don't know if it's absolutely and objectively necessary now, but I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be able to beat this difficulty as a Tranquility psi crafter without Premeditation and Force User.
I really wanted to go into crafting early but I just can't spare the points. Had to pick up Grenadier at level 10 to be able to handle Silent Isle because traps alone weren't doing it. Probably won't have any significant investment into crafting skills before level 16 or so (have 20 each in Mechanics and Tailoring to be able to recycle heavy items and reduce the trips back to SGS). Paranoia + Gunslinger are even more valuable and represent my 1st level choices.
Whole lot of door abuse when fighting dogs, rathounds, etc. Didn't end up using it on the psi beetles when rescuing Newton, though, thanks to the two-stage LOS break, plus Force barrier and traps+grenades.
Really enjoying this difficulty level. Currently getting my face punched off trying to rescue Maura. Almost every fight requires re-thinking action sequences, which is great; no more Premeditation -> Pyrokinesis -> grenade -> Cryo/Electrokinesis -> loot bodies boredom. Pretty sure I won't make it to Tchort, but I'm happy to keep trying for now.
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So how exactly are you supposed to get the key card for the inner gate of Depot A which is behind the two now plasma turrets? You cannot out range them. They have huge amounts of HP. They can one shot you. There is no console which can disable them.
Did you screw stealthers over on purpose?
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I guess you need agility and drugs to get in and still have ap, and then an EMP grenade, wouldn't be the first time that stealthers are screwed over in a situation.
Dominating doesn't sound like it's for me anyway, I never go full hardcore or try to break the game too much so this difficulty will just annihilate me, maybe i'll try the shotgun+temporal build on this difficulty first as a joke before I do it properly on hard.
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So how exactly are you supposed to get the key card for the inner gate of Depot A which is behind the two now plasma turrets? You cannot out range them. They have huge amounts of HP. They can one shot you. There is no console which can disable them.
Did you screw stealthers over on purpose?
Is there no terminal in the first observation room to hack to lvl3 on DOMINATING? (60 base skill)
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So how exactly are you supposed to get the key card for the inner gate of Depot A which is behind the two now plasma turrets? You cannot out range them. They have huge amounts of HP. They can one shot you. There is no console which can disable them.
Did you screw stealthers over on purpose?
Plasma turrets have 10 initiative. You can't have lower than 11**, and if you're stealthy, you probably have at least 18-20. So you can just enter combat, win initiative, and run out of LOS. Then walk in, take a shot, and walk out. Repeat a bunch of times.
If you do have 11 initiative and don't want to mess around with RNG, then enter combat from out of LOS of the turrets, walk into LOS, shoot them, and walk away.
If all of that is still unacceptable, remember that there's a way into the back of that map which does not require you to engage with those turrets. And as Bruno pointed out above, there is in fact a terminal (guarded by a measly sentry bot) which you can hack to shut down the plasma turrets.
** Ugh, on second thought, I suppose with the right debuffs you could get down to...-2? 5+6 base, -2 for a Dex or Agi JS debuff, -10 for re-entering zone/crawling through a vent, plus isn't there something else that gives a -1? Bleh. I should know better than to make sweeping statements like "you can't"
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Actually I completely forgot that you can power down the turrets with 60 hacking at the console on the map which you access from the Eel's wormhole. I had 58 only because I thought 55 was enough but I was wrong.
Doing that allows you to snatch the card, you just have to take care of the sentry bots.
The next big hurdle are the borrowers in the Camp Hathor mine but I think I will skip it for a while. It is packed to the brim with borrowers and some of the new burrower warriors.
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The next big hurdle are the borrowers in the Camp Hathor mine ... It is packed to the brim with borrowers
Got change? Just some change, man, all i ask.
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To post my experience with new difficulty i'll need a doll to show where it touched me.
Overall i say i really like the challenge, but i feel really conflicted about the fact that i can see new enemies and encounters only along with difficulty that is pretty grindy. Sadly, big increase in enemy health and accuracy/damage invalidates a lot of builds i find fun to play. It's great for a challenge run, but perhaps not something i would play every time.
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but i feel really conflicted about the fact that i can see new enemies and encounters only along with difficulty that is pretty grindy.
They are present in all difficulties.
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Really? But it's said in the description of DOMINATING difficulty that encounters were spiced up with additional enemies or made harder through other means. I don't mean just the new types of enemies, i mean all those new harder encounters where old tactics won't work, but without health+skill increase. I'm gonna run the DOMINATING at least twice (regular run to see what is new on this difficulty and an ironman run), but after that i don't think i'm gonna run it just for fun or to test a new build i came up with.
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I said I was fine with the new monsters but I urge you, Styg, to remove PSI-cognitive Interruption from the new psi beetle. It basically one shots any PSI user unless the build goes max Con, or maybe you can survive it at very high levels.
You think other builds have it any better? Goliathuses also cast Pseudo-spatial Projection and Disruptive Field. In other words you need to hit them up to 7 times before you start doing any damage while also suffering from a huge ranged precision penalty, up to 85%. If they didn't cast PSI-cognitive Interruption, psi builds would be able to deal with them easily compared to other builds since psi doesn't care about precision. Not to mention you can eventually cure psi inhibition with psi reinvigorators.
Psi builds get so much special treatment already, I'm glad we have a new enemy that is especially dangerous for them.
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Psi builds get so much special treatment already, I'm glad we have a new enemy that is especially dangerous for them.
Couldn't agree more with that.
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I haven't used a single molotov so far, I'm inside Depot A right now. Basic frag grenades are still enough to insta-kill normal rathounds regardless of how numerous they are and take a good chunk of alpha's HP.
I should have known better than to overstate my case. But I am finding them quite handy on the new difficulty. Relied heavily on them last night in an encounter rather more dangerous than rathounds. Aluminized tabi boots may become part of my permanent kit.
While I'm making corrections, I'd like to retract my remarks about Depot A not being a lot harder. I just happened to pick the path of least resistance (hacking) getting through the first time. Have revisited and thought a little more about some of the stuff I evaded. Yeah, it's quite a bit harder, but the hacking path is less so. that's ok it doesn't need fixed
I doubt that an almost-pure stealth build is practical on DOMINATING. More enemies and higher detection rates probably necessarily means more required fights. This seems fine with me, I don't know that it would be DOMINATING any more if you could still sneak by almost everything. Stealth is still really really good.
Ah, I see someone already remarked on the EMP grenade to deal with the plasma turrets.
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Ok this is not even fun anymore nor is it really hard when you are at the last step of the Foundry "The Beast" quest line. The waves are seemingly endless, the companions are terribly equiped (two grenades, no armor piercing bullets?)
This rests entirely upon how many bear traps can you squeeze into this fight. Sorry Styg but this has nothing to do with difficulty, it is flat out stupid and requires little to no tactics just spam bear traps before the fight leaving just one tiny corridor. What is worse there is no alternative. Spam bear traps or get overrun.
Please limit the waves to like 3-4 having 6+ with double the amount of enemies and 50% more HP is just silly.
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but i feel really conflicted about the fact that i can see new enemies and encounters only along with difficulty that is pretty grindy.
They are present in all difficulties.
So is it merely a difference in how many enemies there are in the game? Like, will I see the Death Stalker enemies on Normal, or just DOMINATING difficulty?
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I was actually wrong about the Plasma turrets in Depot A. They can be shut down which enables you to get that last key card.
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So is it merely a difference in how many enemies there are in the game? Like, will I see the Death Stalker enemies on Normal, or just DOMINATING difficulty?
You will see the new creatures in all difficulties. On harder difficulties they appear earlier and are more numerous. The amount and type of enemies in combat encounters is probably the biggest difference between difficulties now, but on harder difficulties some old enemies also gain new traits.
Imho they should not come up too early. The new creatures can solo many characters. I would rather see them as pack leaders which give special benefits to the pack.
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When i saw 3 goliathus on silent isle i knew the fun was about to start.
So far i saved the foundry from the beast, gotta say this new difficulty made me take new approaches to solve problems, i was having a huge problem with the waves of endless bladelings spawning in the last part of that beast questline, but i never considered to use gas grenades before and that did the trick.
On Dominating bio damage gets way more useful than before because enemies actually have enough health to justify using it.
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So how do I get this new material exactly? If I go to my library in steam and right click "underrail", there is no "beta" tab.
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So how do I get this new material exactly? If I go to my library in steam and right click "underrail", there is no "beta" tab.
Library -> right click on Underrail -> Properties -> BETAS tab
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(http://i66.tinypic.com/wwhtzs.png)
This is my only option.
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@harperfan7 - what do you see when you click on the down triangle to the right of "NONE - Opt out of all beta programs".
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It does nothing. It's as if there is no arrow there.
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That's weird - this is what I see on mine:
https://i.imgur.com/XaD2hIG.png
Are you running the latest version of Steam? I'm asking because I don't have DLC tab on mine.
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That was it, thank you.
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What's the deal with campfires?
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Spoiler alert! Do not read if you never made it past the elevator fight.
Guys I need a confirmation here: Does creeping dread/Eye of Tchort debuff seems to stack faster on dominating difficulty for you?
This is either my memory playing trick on me or the debuff stack speed was increased in this patch. I remember being able to explore a couple blocks before having to hide in a safe spot before. Right now I can barely walk one block before creeping dread turns into Eye of Tchort. Yes, I'm using Cheat Engine speed hack. Yes, I tested and re-tested this with and without Cheat Engine and it has nothing to do with the rate debuff stacks. I don't remember being this annoyed by this in my previous DC runs. This is not even hard or difficult, just pure annoyance - Tchortlings would constantly show up, kill them in 1 ~ 3 shots from my laser and their reinforcements would lock me into a 10 min mini battle which is neither difficult nor resource draining (you waste a couple of my batteries and stims, gold star for you Tchort).
Please take a look at the rate creeping dread/Eye of Tchort stacks and slow it down a bit. Thank you.
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Please take a look at the rate creeping dread/Eye of Tchort stacks and slow it down a bit. Thank you.
have you got the feat from Leo yet?
it reduces the rate creeping dread stacks.
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Yes I have the feat from Leo.
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Hi guys,
I'm loving this difficulty, it really makes replaying the game worthwhile.
Doing okay-ish so far with my little chemist build, just defeated the beast at lvl 15, using 25 bear traps, 10 frag mark IV and two gas grenade. The "cooked shot" ability with acid chemical pistol also proved very useful in this fight. In general it allows a lot of crowd control, very good new feat.
The win was anticlimatic though because i had an "error : zone transitition failed" after that. It worked after reloading though.
Balor himself wasn't really hard, but i had to dipose of his lads separately first.
More precisely my build at lvl 15 is :
S3/D10/A3/C4/P10/W3/I7
opportunist
pack rathound (feels mandatory considering how much bear traps and mines i'm using, and i don't use cheat engine)
aimed shot
quick tinkering (mandatory for my build)
grenadier (extremely useful for frags and incendiaries)
cooked shot (super good with the buff to chemical pistols)
mad chemist
execute
ambush (not sure it's a wise choice so far, but i like the idea, and it pairs well with incendiaries)
I'm hesitating a lot for the last 5 feats, i'm currently considering :
- three pointer, point shot, sharpshooter, critical power and fatal throw ;
or
- sharpshooter, critical power, high technicalities (with +1 int at lvl 16), pratical physicist and point shot or power management : so it'd be a hybrid chemical/laser pistol build, which seems fun considering that setting ennemies on fire with incendiary pistol can help triggering ambush.
I'm planning to pump dext to 14 (makes chemical ap 18 and laser pistol 10), then i don't know for the last two remaing points : perception, int with high technicalities, con or even agility all seem good options.
In any case i fear deep cavern will give me a hard time, i'll probably try to max stealth to avoid most fights...
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opportunist
pack rathound (feels mandatory considering how much bear traps and mines i'm using, and i don't use cheat engine)
aimed shot
quick tinkering (mandatory for my build)
grenadier (extremely useful for frags and incendiaries)
cooked shot (super good with the buff to chemical pistols)
mad chemist
execute
ambush (not sure it's a wise choice so far, but i like the idea, and it pairs well with incendiaries)
I'm hesitating a lot for the last 5 feats, i'm currently considering :
- three pointer, point shot, sharpshooter, critical power and fatal throw ;
or
- sharpshooter, critical power, high technicalities (with +1 int at lvl 16), pratical physicist and point shot or power management : so it'd be a hybrid chemical/laser pistol build, which seems fun considering that setting ennemies on fire with incendiary pistol can help triggering ambush.
I was able to complete the game with hybrid chemical/energy pistol build. But my stats distribution was a bit different - 3/8/6/3/10/3/7.
My feat choices were:
The same: Aimed Shot(6 PER), Cooked Shot(5 DEX), Mad Chemist(7 INT), Quick Tinkering(7 DEX), Grenadier(6 DEX), Opportunist, Execute.
Sharpshooter(10 PER), Kneecap Shot(7 PER) - Considered this option too, but Execute won this battle =]
Paranoia <- good Initiative boost and Crawlers/Lunatic stealthed Psionics are bad.
Sure Step(5 AGI) - I know this is lol, but acid pistol was my primary weapon + helped a bit in Depot A
Sprint(6 AGI) <- Important for my fragile char and cornersniping and the main reason for 6 AGI.
Power Management(7 INT) <- Important for Energy Shield Emitter(my only layer of defence)
Practical Physicist(7 INT) - If you want to take Critical Power, you need this.
Critical Power - Killing Easy/Medium enemies with 1shot from Laser/Electroshock Pistol.
Three-Pointer(7 DEX) - with critical hit from Frag Grenade V can kill a pack of easy/medium enemies.
Skipped:
High-Technicalities(5 INT) <- I don' know, mb It's worth a shot... For my hybrid build with 7 INT It wasn't so important.
Ambush(6 PER) <- Too situational + I usually use Night Vision so I even can't see the illuminated/non-illuminated tiles.
Escape Artist(7 DEX) - This is good, but sadly, I didn't had 30 dodge =(
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Thanks for the good feedback Mindless, gratz for beating the game :) !
I considered paranoia but i usually start combat myself, and i mostly deal with crawlers using stealth, bear traps and molotovs, dont'know about stealth lunatic yet though...
I skipped sprint to spare me 6 agi, but it surely would have been great otherwise for my build.
I'm not so sure about practical physicist versus high technicalites. If i take 8 int (which is also good for a lot of bonus skill points), thats +24 % base damage, which seems betters than +25% critical damage bonus (62.5 with critical power) if you get more than ~160 critical damage bonus (i didn't do the maths properly). Both would be even better of course :)
Also can i ask what was you final set of armor ?
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I'm not so sure about practical physicist versus high technicalites. If i take 8 int (which is also good for a lot of bonus skill points), thats +24 % base damage, which seems betters than +25% critical damage bonus (62.5 with critical power) if you get more than ~160 critical damage bonus (i didn't do the maths properly). Both would be even better of course :)
But I had 7 INT and my primary attacks with energy weapon were "Aimed Shots" or buffed shots with Focus Stims and even with 8 INT 62.5% > 24% from my point of view, especially devastating with Electroshock pistol.
Mb I would shuffle Sure Step for It. But Sure Step was useful so I don't know =(
Also can i ask what was you final set of armor ?
I hadn't invested in tailoring(only 10 for grenades) so I had 2 sets of armor: Biohazard Suit+Boots(very useful in DC, obviously, even with such severe penalties) and... Rathound Regalia+Ninja Tabi Boots, cuz it's best "stealth" armor in my case(no tailoring, no Nimble feat), no guns/crossbows users in DC(which can oneshot you) and most enemies can be skipped; all available heavy armors(Metal/Riot) just lol for DC.
P.S. Also in DC I have found 160 quality Laser Emitter and mb it's static.
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I'm not so sure about practical physicist versus high technicalites. If i take 8 int (which is also good for a lot of bonus skill points), thats +24 % base damage, which seems betters than +25% critical damage bonus (62.5 with critical power) if you get more than ~160 critical damage bonus (i didn't do the maths properly). Both would be even better of course :)
HT is much better than PP. The latter is better only if you have Crit Power, don't use Amplifiers on your guns and have 65% or more chance to crit.
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I hadn't invested in tailoring(only 10 for grenades) so I had 2 sets of armor: Biohazard Suit+Boots(very useful in DC, obviously, even with such severe penalties) and... Rathound Regalia+Ninja Tabi Boots, cuz it's best "stealth" armor in my case(no tailoring, no Nimble feat), no guns/crossbows users in DC(which can oneshot you) and most enemies can be skipped; all available heavy armors(Metal/Riot) just lol for DC.
P.S. Also in DC I have found 160 quality Laser Emitter and mb it's static.
Thank you very much, i'm amazed you did'nt even use tailoring !
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I'm not so sure about practical physicist versus high technicalites. If i take 8 int (which is also good for a lot of bonus skill points), thats +24 % base damage, which seems betters than +25% critical damage bonus (62.5 with critical power) if you get more than ~160 critical damage bonus (i didn't do the maths properly). Both would be even better of course :)
HT is much better than PP. The latter is better only if you have Crit Power, don't use Amplifiers on your guns and have 65% or more chance to crit.
Now when you said this, mb you are right. When I have played with my hybrid build I don't bother to look in this matter.
For example, we have 100% damage and 500% critical damage, so with PP we will have 562.5% final damage on crit(1.0*(500,0%+62,5%)).
With HT and even 7 INT we will have 580% final damage on crit(1.0*1.16*500%). Ofc if my calculations are right.
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For me, it's sort of doable when investing in Chemistry for mk4 grenades, before even getting the Energy Shield blueprint. The feat reducing grenade cooldown helps a lot. Because of it, Depot A, aka Hell, was actually pretty easy. There was one Depot A map with a great amount of Doggies and some Mutants that was a problem. Over 3/4 of my damage was mk4 frags.
Some enemies have an absurd amount of evasion. Only burst fire at point-blank range gets them, other than grenades. Other times enemies like some Lunatic groups are instakilling my CON 3 character. Gotta keep them alive till much later.
Sometimes the amount of fodder thrown my way is just too absurd.
I applaud those who already made it to DC. What are your builds? This is mine, not sure if completely viable:
STR 3
DEX 12
AGI 4 (going for 6 for lower burst cost)
CON 3
PER 10
WIL 3
INT 7
Guns, Throwing, crafting
Grenadier, Power Management, level 11, 730 capacity shield.
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spoiler debuff seems to stack faster on dominating difficulty for you?
This is not even hard or difficult, just pure annoyance.
10 min mini battle which is neither difficult nor resource draining
Yes, it's faster and there are more of the creatures. And the fighting gets more intense the closer you are to the source.
But are you seriously saying it's not hard? You can handle it all without even expending significant consumables? Not even the slightest stress that your character might not make it? Now that is hardcore! How do you even stay in a fight for 10 minutes without resource drain, with a speedhack too? I know you pleaded to remove the fights, but how would you make them harder instead (within reasonable bounds)? Because Styg has no intention of making DOMINATING any less dominating and navigating the eye's domain should be perilous to your character.
First, my build: http://underrail.info.tm/build/?GQMNBwMKAwfCh8KHAAAAwodxADIcKFt2SzBwAAAAAAAAARkxMB5RWRZLAj4zwppa
Gear (not even top tier, just crafted item from what I located):
Seeker goggles (crit chance +16%)
Infused rathound leather armor (crit chance +11%)
Recklessness (crit chance +7%)
Laser pistol (crit chance = 6% from gun)
Plasma/Electro pistol (crit chance = 5%)
Focus stim = crit chance +15%
Ambush = crit chance + (20% + 0.3% * 113) = 53.9% <- not sure if 0.3% * base or effective so I use base here.
So when you add everything up crit chance = 107.9 ~ 108.9%. Setting up Ambush isn't hard in DC at all since it's so dark everywhere, one incendiary grenade (note I max out throwing AND i have backup flare) and I'm good to go. Against Tchortlings every single shot from my laser/electro pistol is a crit, I also get to toss an incendiary or Frag MKV grenade every two turn, quick tinker a trap (mostly bear but I have MKV frag) every two turns. So yeah, even when the fight drags on it's not hard nor resource draining - ingredients for incendiary grenades, focus stim, bear traps are plentiful in DC.
Pro tip: you can tell your own darkness level, even with night vision on, by looking at your own portrait.
I'm on board with most of the changes for dominating difficulty but this increase rate of creeping dread/eye of tchort is a mistake. I ended up just resigning to the fact I must fight in DC and just brute force my way to my goal on various maps (instead of using safe spot and wait out the debuff, which wasn't ideal to begin with pre ver 1.0.2 but if you try this now it's turning the annoyance dial to eleven). I don't know how to make DC harder but this increase rate of debuff is not the answer. This change annoyed the hell out of me and I'm giving it a thumbs down. Boo.
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Only freshly into DC but boy, those Tchortling spawns are amped up from Hard. Still, with +~40% move speed I can get from safe haven to safe haven with usually only one fight en route, or none. This build works fine for Dominating, but it's not perfect; just haven't gotten enough use out of Quick Tinkering to make it worthwhile. Otherwise, pretty much everything comes into play every combat, which keeps combat varied and interesting.
http://underrail.info.tm/build/?GQMIAwMDEAoPHgAAAAAAUEEARlVVIERfS8KHwoctAEErKBc_FCouFjAhZD1mZyk
On Hard, I tried not to use the (somewhat cheesy) LoC+Bilocation on groups while hiding behind the force field, but on Dominating I have no shame at all ;) Pretty much every significant fight with Lurkers, Lunatics, Ironheads, Protectorate, et c. has abused the crap out of AoE Bilocation.
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If you guys want to increase the difficulty for dominating DC maybe you should do it like Fallout: New Vegas - have a Tchortling death squad blocking the exit. I just want to loot the parts in one go instead of "fight, loot w/ 20AP, blocked by locked door, end fight, pick lock and/or blocked by wall, end fight, drill, another fight, loot w/ 20AP".
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Well just finished a dominating game w/ an energy pistol char.
I always considered crossbow as the measuring bar in this game, not weak and not overpowering strong, as the middle ranking class. I would say the new energy pistol class is on the same tier as crossbow now but quite a bit weaker. The laser pistol AP reduction really helps this class and it will be your work horse weapon of choice. Understanding of Ambush is a must if you want to unlock this class' full potential. The major weaknesses and drawbacks of this class applied to all pistol class - very starve on ability points, low PER due to the need to pump DEX, low accuracy (toward the middle ~ end game my accuracy hover between 6x ~ 8x%, 95% are super rare without bear traps), short range of weapons (especially electro + plasma). You are very weak against enemies that are immune to crit. I would strongly suggest you bring advanced catalyzing belt, a fire/acid chem gun and a rapid smart 7.62mm Jaguar SMG to the end game.
Spoiler ahead, do not read if you never beaten the game.
https://i.imgur.com/KchrhAi.png
https://i.imgur.com/WY1KZCd.png
Overall this is a challenging and enjoyable experience, with the exception of the changes to creeping dread/eye of tchort. If it's up to me I would also weaken Death Stalkers a bit. Next up: psi monk on dominating to test dodge/evasion.
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I always considered crossbow as the measuring bar in this game, not weak and not overpowering strong, as the middle ranking class.
Tbh, i consider crossbows to be closer to lower end of the power. Not the lowest, but not in the middle either. They have several weaknesses that are very hard to work around (like no way to deal with high mech resist outside of special bolts) and require a lot of specific build choices that will hurt you very much unless if you don't take them.
On the topic. I just got in the DC with heavy sledg build and i want to say that i like the new difficulty, even if sometimes it was pretty frustrating (especially in the beginning). My sledg build for new difficulty differed from previous one only by the 40 point put into traps to help at the start and i probably could have done it without this investment. Most dangerous enemies for me till this point were big groups of lunatics.
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Well just finished a dominating game w/ an energy pistol char.
I always considered crossbow as the measuring bar in this game, not weak and not overpowering strong, as the middle ranking class. I would say the new energy pistol class is on the same tier as crossbow now but quite a bit weaker. The laser pistol AP reduction really helps this class and it will be your work horse weapon of choice. Understanding of Ambush is a must if you want to unlock this class' full potential. The major weaknesses and drawbacks of this class applied to all pistol class - very starve on ability points, low PER due to the need to pump DEX, low accuracy (toward the middle ~ end game my accuracy hover between 6x ~ 8x%, 95% are super rare without bear traps), short range of weapons (especially electro + plasma). You are very weak against enemies that are immune to crit. I would strongly suggest you bring advanced catalyzing belt, a fire/acid chem gun and a rapid smart 7.62mm Jaguar SMG to the end game.
Spoiler ahead, do not read if you never beaten the game.
https://i.imgur.com/KchrhAi.png
https://i.imgur.com/WY1KZCd.png
Overall this is a challenging and enjoyable experience, with the exception of the changes to creeping dread/eye of tchort. If it's up to me I would also weaken Death Stalkers a bit. Next up: psi monk on dominating to test dodge/evasion.
Did you tried the extra optional boss? I haven't updated the game yet and wanted to know how crazy would be fighting that armored commander.
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@MirddinEmris - I respectfully disagree because xbow have a lot of outs against high mech resist in the form of special bolts. Xbow even have Deadly Snares + Elemental Bolts specifically design for that. I could be wrong tho - what would you consider to be the middle ranking class in Underrail?
@Yonaiker - well my char can't fight them in open space after the final boss as their emp grenade destroyed me. I'm pretty sure this char can take them on in the small room w/ the captives in the back by abusing quick tinkering + bear traps.
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Can you detect Death Stalkers with detection goggles, and Paranoia?
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Well, someone wrote that with Perception 15 and Paranoia and goggles he coudn't do that.
But I could be wrong.
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Also, Dominating just rocks!
Fights are very interesting, like when I started to play Underrail back then.
Thank you Styg!
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Entering Depot A with my heavy gunner (actually just made my first suit of metal armor; I've been a kevlar anti-rifle tacvest gunner up until now and I'll probably switch back and forth)/submachine gunner with occasional sniper use. This feels just right; it's just hard enough that I have to really try, and I have to use all my resources pretty frequently, but not so much that it's frustrating. Sure, there's been a few times where I've save scummed to avoid having to spend forever being painstakingly careful (like when placing traps near enemies - I should have crafted stealth gear earlier because now I don't need to do that). Also, when wearing bulletproof stuff, I still get hurt and have to be at least a little careful; in my last hard playthrough I did a sledge juggernaut with a regenerative vest and it was like playing a literal tank albeit one with no horse power.
I've done the two early game burrower dungeons and in both of them I killed the last one right before I was about to die after using most of my available expendables; it's such a great feeling. Shush Atoll was particularly hard, but there's a trick to getting it to work that I figured out before too long (it involves caltrops and a certain shoreline's proximity). I've got quick pockets and a utility belt and I am really using them. I carry 15-25 bear traps with me when I go out, and like 40-50 for burrower dungeons.
If I weren't using bear traps and nets/caltrops/mark x frags/incidiaries/taser and/or emp/flashbangs, it would be virtually impossible.
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Yeah, I just done Deport A yesterday, same feeling.
During a massive fight with mutants I used 2 Adrenalin Shots lol, it was so long.
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Can you detect Death Stalkers with detection goggles, and Paranoia?
I am able to see their silhouettes when they are very close and initiate combat at 266 detection. Level 22, 14 PER and Paranoia, no detection goggles.
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So, I got rando encounter...
Three Ironhead Berserkers, with hammers, with Sprint, with Adrnalin Shot, with helaing hypo +150 hp, at map that open as table...
I don't know, what heavy armored characters can do with it...
Also, this fight show, that without good random roll you are as good as dead - if they initiate combat, one can run toward my char with Sprint and stop, or run and use Adrenalin and... you know right?
Also they have Yell, that shit lower my skill that much, I lose 15% chance to hit to 50+%, so you need to stay away from them, or freez them.
Though fight, if special effects from chem pistols don't proc.
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Just finished dominating on my chemical pistol character, the new chemical belt is godtier since in the end i was firing chemical pistols for 11AP, could be firing for 9 with supersoldier drug, but i choose to level some dodge early for escape artist and didn't found enough points for it on the end.
I really enjoyed the random encounters, new enemy placements and all the new stuff, in the end it made me feel like i was playing this game for the first time again since i never knew what to expect of the zones i was already used to.
The lunatic mall was the hardest part in dominating, DC was a breeze compared to that mall full of lunatics.
The only thing i really disliked was how heavy chemical ammo is, in DC i was contantly checking my ammo, avoiding fights and trying to finish it as quickly as possible because i was barely able to carry enough ammo for all the encounters, i spent a good chunk of my time on DC in the Labyrinth farming deep worms for their corrosive acid glands.
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The early test results for dodge/evasion on dominating aren't looking good. I'm wrong about dodge/evasion being viable as my energy pistol char might just had been very lucky. I don't think dodge/evasion is viable on dominating oddity mode as the early game will destroy you. I'm wondering if it's viable w/ the aid of jumping bean + high level gear + adrenaline + boxing gloves on XP mode but still very far from getting access to Core City.
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I don't think dodge/evasion is viable on dominating oddity mode as the early game will destroy you. I'm wondering if it's viable w/ the aid of jumping bean + high level gear + adrenaline + boxing gloves on XP mode but still very far from getting access to Core City.
I don't know how you're defining a "dodge/evasion" build, but my own experiences with Dominating suggest that a lightly armored build is definitely viable, especially if you take Uncanny Dodge and Evasive Maneuvers. Yeah, if you're basing your entire build off of 0% Armor Penalty w/ R.R. or Leather Armor + Nimble, then you're going to get totally wrecked in the early game, but at Armor Penalty ≤ %50 with Dodge & Evasion, you can get through every fight without having to reload more than a few times. It is "Dominating" difficulty, after all -- it's meant to dominate you -- so a little save-scumming is to be expected. If you're talking about doing an Ironman run, then I don't expect you'll be able to win with anything other than a 10 CON sniper build, or something equally ridiculous. IDK, that's just a guess; I'm not insane enough to seriously test out builds for an Dominating Ironman run.
Presently, I'm still rocking the 3 CON SMG build that I mentioned when I started this thread, and as it is, I'm fairly confident that I can at least beat the game with it. As it is, I've finished everything in Junkyard, Camp Hathor, and Rail Crossing, and I'm working my way through Foundry & Core City as we speak. However, the build is far from reliable, and my overall success with it hinges on three main utilities:
1.) The ability to craft W2C bullets with 20 Chemistry. This is the crux on which the entire build rests. With how tanky everything is on Dominating (and the fact that you're fighting end-game enemies at level 7), it is absolutely necessary for me to be able to burst out an entire clip of W2C ammo every battle. Graphite is now more precious than gold. Sadly, without Mercantile, it is a rare commodity, indeed.
2.) Quick Tinkering & bear traps. If the W2C ammo doesn't make this build viable, the bear traps do. With 3 CON and only a Q100 Galvanic Overcoat, the ability to immobilize my opponents and then hide behind a corner has allowed me to survive fights where it's not 1v1 against a melee fighter (thanks, Uncanny Dodge). Death Stalkers are actually impossible for me to kill without Quick Tinkering, W2C, and molotovs. Also, on the note of Death Stalkers, I know that Dominating difficulty is supposed to be insane, Styg, but did you have to put seven of these f-ckers in lux-b4?? And don't even get me started on lux-a6x! Screw the Upper Caves!!
3.) Molotovs. Especially when fighting the Rathound King, these guys were essential. Combined with Quick Tinkering and the ability to burst-fire 20+ rounds of W2C per turn, and I can take out almost any enemy in the game in 2 turns or less. I haven't finished the Kill the Beast quest yet, though, so the Bladelings may kill my build like they always do. Especially if the rumors I have heard about the new waves are true. :o
So yeah, my 3/10/7/3/7/3/7 SMG build is viable when paired with constant W2C bullet-crafting, Quick Tinkering, and Molotovs. 100+ Stealth is helping out a lot, too. Lunatics are still a pain in the ass, but that's not really new. Burrowers are a joke, though, which is not something I'm used to. I never thought that I would be able to burst down a Burrower Warrior in one turn at level 11. That was a humbling experience -- for the burrowers! ;D
All in all, my experiences would seem to suggest that a dodge & evasion build @ ≤ 50% Armor Penalty is actually viable (at least on an SMG gunner with Quick Tinkering).
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Ok first some definition:
Dodge/Evasion build - a build with max dodge and evasion, low armor penalty (preferably 0% w/ Nimble) and high AGI
Viable dodge/evasion build - able to survive most encounter out in the open using dodge and evasion, without resorting to other tricks like quick tinkering + bear trap + line of sight abuse. Obviously dodge/evasion does nothing to psi but you should be able to dodge/evade aim shots, burst and shock bolt w/ confidence.
Early results:
Tested using a psi monk setup, 10 AGI, max dodge/evasion, 0 armor penalty w/ nimble (15% dodge/evasion bonus, hereafter abbreviated to 0APWN), cave hopper leather armor and later cave hopper tabi as well.
http://underrail.info.tm/build/?GQMMCgkDAwYAMADCh8KHwodvAAAAGXZvDDtvAC0jAAAAK2IkMTAgE0cHPEJLEgYq
Note there are couple non-optimize choices here for the purpose of testing dodge/evasion.
- 45 (52 ok) effective dodge still getting hit by rathound, so this mean as an 0APWN AGI 10 char you need to be level 5 with max dodge/evasion in order to be immune to the weakest creature in the game. This is insane! Remember a lot of dodge/evasion build are 6 ~ 8 AGI w/ around 10 ~ 15% armor penalty.
- 67 effective evasion still getting gun down by GMS raiders in caves (level 7, 0APWN AGI 10), can't reliably evade aimed shot/burst/regular gun fire.
- 67 effective dodge not even enough to dodge Grover's bare fist (level 7, 0APWN AGI 10)
- 87 dodge not enough to dodge siphoner (level 10, 0APWN AGI 11)
Remember some builds like psi monk were designed to be out in the open relying on a strong alpha strike to take out most of the enemies and dodge/evade incoming attacks from the few remaining enemies. This used to be viable on ver 1.0.2 hard but seems to consistently fail on ver 1.0.3 dominating. I'm still trying to see if you can get around this by a) powerlevel to level 25 early and dodge/evade most of the game by superior level and b) high level gears such as infused leather, boxing gloves and c) medicine like jumping beans, adrenaline.
Again I must stress I'm testing the best case scenario here (0APWN, AGI 10, max dodge/evasion) which is not realistic for most builds. You can't powerlevel in oddity mode which is why I said dodge/evasion builds are no longer viable for dominating oddity mode. Remember we are pumping a total of 270 skill points and if you are still resorting to quick tinkering, bear traps and LOS abuse then something is seriously wrong. I'm reserving judgement on classic mode mid ~ late game but I must say things aren't looking good right now.
TL:DR - this is an in-depth game mechanic discussion gear towards obsessive players like myself so no TL:DR version available. :P
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I just changed my Biocorp iShield 7S for the Biocorp iShield 7X. It also comes with a signed photograph of Wit Nosek, but the writing isn't too legible.
The old one:
(https://i.imgur.com/ZxEGCN8.png)
The new one:
(https://i.imgur.com/zP8B0NB.png)
I must say it's worth the 70% price increase, though it should come with batteries included! I also heard that they have better models at the Devil Institute.
- 45 (52 ok) effective dodge still getting hit by rathound, so this mean as an 0APWN AGI 10 char you need to be level 5 with max dodge/evasion in order to be immune to the weakest creature in the game. This is insane! Remember a lot of dodge/evasion build are 6 ~ 8 AGI w/ around 10 ~ 15% armor penalty.
- 67 effective evasion still getting gun down by GMS raiders in caves (level 7, 0APWN AGI 10), can't reliably evade aimed shot/burst/regular gun fire.
- 67 effective dodge not even enough to dodge Grover's bare fist (level 7, 0APWN AGI 10)
- 87 dodge not enough to dodge siphoner (level 10, 0APWN AGI 11)
I see Evasion helping somewhat against midgame enemies, like Camp Hathor burrowers. Mitigates about half the shots. My current value is 211.
How many punches does Grover miss out of 20 or more, if you can check? Can we take assumptions on Grover's Melee skill from his bare first damage? Better the sample count (i.e. hits taken),
better the estimate we can make. Statistics don't lie.
I think rathounds aren't representative in general since Alphas got buffed to hell and back on Dominating. Before they were cakewalk, now two packs before GMS entrance required some serious thinking for my characters, and one failed as result.
Can you explain what is "alpha strike"?
Yeah, I just done Deport A yesterday, same feeling.
During a massive fight with mutants I used 2 Adrenalin Shots lol, it was so long.
With mk4 frag grenades it's pretty easy. Some encounters got buffed but there's also a ton with barely changed difficulty.
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Ok first some definition:
Dodge/Evasion build - a build with max dodge and evasion, low armor penalty (preferably 0% w/ Nimble) and high AGI
Viable dodge/evasion build - able to survive most encounter out in the open using dodge and evasion, without resorting to other tricks like quick tinkering + bear trap + line of sight abuse. Obviously dodge/evasion does nothing to psi but you should be able to dodge/evade aim shots, burst and shock bolt w/ confidence.
Gotcha. Yeah, with those definitions, it does not seem like one is able to achieve a "viable dodge/evasion build" on Dominating difficulty, at least not without significant power-leveling on Classic.
However, if overall survivability is what you're after, it is important that you don't neglect use of Uncanny Dodge and Sprint + Evasive Maneuvers, which (let's be honest) provide Dodge & Evasion builds with most of their end-game power. I do not consider the usage of either feat to be "cheating" in any way, as they are included within the game and intended for use by Dodge & Evasion builds.
It may not be possible for a 52 effective dodge character to completely avoid every single attack from a rathound on Dominating, but with Uncanny Dodge, they most certainly can dodge everything that gets thrown at them. At 52 effective Dodge, you can dodge 3 melee attacks in a row for one turn, guaranteed. At 135 effective Dodge, the bonus becomes 6 guaranteed dodges for one turn. Similarly, an AGI 10 character with Sprint (for a total of 75 movement points), will get a bonus of 225 Evasion from Evasive Maneuvers for one turn. Granted, most battles are unlikely to last for just one turn, but you cannot deny that these bonuses provide significant survivability for any character.
So I would encourage you to continue your testing with an Uncanny Dodge / Evasive Maneuvers character, and determine the "true viability" from there. I'm doing the same with my own character, but my SMG build only allows for 8 AGI, and I'm not bothering with Nimble or 0% Armor Penalty. And, of course, I have some other tricks up my sleeve. :P
I see Evasion helping somewhat against midgame enemies, like Camp Hathor burrowers. Mitigates about half the shots. My current value is 211.
How many punches does Grover miss out of 20 or more, if you can check? Can we take assumptions on Grover's Melee skill from his bare first damage? Better the sample count (i.e. hits taken), better the estimate we can make. Statistics don't lie.
Yeah, I have to agree with Twiglard here. Some more statistics would be helpful in providing a more representative outlook on the viability of Dodge & Evasion builds on Dominating difficulty.
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Wall of text warning.
*snip
I see Evasion helping somewhat against midgame enemies, like Camp Hathor burrowers. Mitigates about half the shots. My current value is 211.
How many punches does Grover miss out of 20 or more, if you can check? Can we take assumptions on Grover's Melee skill from his bare first damage? Better the sample count (i.e. hits taken),
better the estimate we can make. Statistics don't lie.
I think rathounds aren't representative in general since Alphas got buffed to hell and back on Dominating. Before they were cakewalk, now two packs before GMS entrance required some serious thinking for my characters, and one failed as result.
Can you explain what is "alpha strike"?
*snip
Preface: the purpose of my test is to check the return of investment of dodge/evasion, while comparing the opportunity cost of the required 270 skill points. I'm also trying to see if it's possible to keep enemies' accuracy down to 10% most of the game in ver 1.0.3 dominating.
1) The problem is if you are playing oddity mode there's just no way to bring burrower's accuracy down to 10% with evasion early game on dominating, 50% is just not good enough.
2) My point w/ Grover is that he's a very weak npc, my char was overleveled with the best setup possible for dodge and it STILL FAILED. 50% dodge rate is just not good enough.
3) I was specifically talking about the weakest creature in game - rathound, and it's a bit ridiculous how high you need in order to be immune to them. Dodging rathound alpha is a separate problem. Good luck dodging alpha during early game. (spoiler: total failure)
4) Alpha strike is when you manually entering combat (usually from stealth) and completing your turn of combat. If you can kill everyone in one turn that means combat is over before your enemies have a chance to act.
Taken to the extreme that would be Blitz + adrenaline + base AP = 90 AP, mix in fatal throw (cost 11AP @17 DEX, return 18AP) = 97 AP total.
*snip
Gotcha. Yeah, with those definitions, it does not seem like one is able to achieve a "viable dodge/evasion build" on Dominating difficulty, at least not without significant power-leveling on Classic.
However, if overall survivability is what you're after, it is important that you don't neglect use of Uncanny Dodge and Sprint + Evasive Maneuvers, which (let's be honest) provide Dodge & Evasion builds with most of their end-game power. I do not consider the usage of either feat to be "cheating" in any way, as they are included within the game and intended for use by Dodge & Evasion builds.
It may not be possible for a 52 effective dodge character to completely avoid every single attack from a rathound on Dominating, but with Uncanny Dodge, they most certainly can dodge everything that gets thrown at them. At 52 effective Dodge, you can dodge 3 melee attacks in a row for one turn, guaranteed. At 135 effective Dodge, the bonus becomes 6 guaranteed dodges for one turn. Similarly, an AGI 10 character with Sprint (for a total of 75 movement points), will get a bonus of 225 Evasion from Evasive Maneuvers for one turn. Granted, most battles are unlikely to last for just one turn, but you cannot deny that these bonuses provide significant survivability for any character.
So I would encourage you to continue your testing with an Uncanny Dodge / Evasive Maneuvers character, and determine the "true viability" from there. I'm doing the same with my own character, but my SMG build only allows for 8 AGI, and I'm not bothering with Nimble or 0% Armor Penalty. And, of course, I have some other tricks up my sleeve. :P
I see Evasion helping somewhat against midgame enemies, like Camp Hathor burrowers. Mitigates about half the shots. My current value is 211.
How many punches does Grover miss out of 20 or more, if you can check? Can we take assumptions on Grover's Melee skill from his bare first damage? Better the sample count (i.e. hits taken), better the estimate we can make. Statistics don't lie.
Yeah, I have to agree with Twiglard here. Some more statistics would be helpful in providing a more representative outlook on the viability of Dodge & Evasion builds on Dominating difficulty.
I disagree w/ the statement: "However, if overall survivability is what you're after, it is important that you don't neglect use of Uncanny Dodge and Sprint + Evasive Maneuvers, which (let's be honest) provide Dodge & Evasion builds with most of their end-game power.". In the past (pre ver 1.0.3) many dodge/evasion builds are without uncanny dodge/sprint/evasive maneuvers (see my guide, character build section - check the last updated date). This is either because there are far better alternative and/or just simply can't afford the feat slot. These builds traded skill point in order to save ability points and/or feat slot, with the prime example being crossbow builds. I would argue uncanny dodge + evasive maneuvers greatly enhance dodge/evasion but are not truly the core of d/e builds. You simply cannot activate uncanny dodge when you are ambushed by a lurker (and lost initiative check) assassin. Evasive maneuvers will only save you from aimed shot/shock bolt/burst for one turn while realistically d/e builds need to be safe from those threats for more than one turns. In addition, if you have enough MP for evasive maneuvers/sprint to be effective it's usually far better to run away (outside enemies' weapon optimal range) and/or break line of sight. This is not ... the desired tactics for some special melee build such as a crit brawler/psi monk.
In any case I will continue on w/o uncanny dodge/evasive maneuvers/sprint as they are outside the purview of my test. I'm also testing d/e to see if running around under 30% health full time in order to trigger survival instinct is still viable. Right now the initial results aren't promising as the return of investment in d/e are poor. With the latest changes to mercantile (getting higher crafting component which directly impact your damage, survivability and utilities) it's probably better to take those skill points away from d/e and pump them into mercantile + crafting skills such as chemistry for high level grenades/biology for medicines. I'm still reserving judgement on classic mode mid ~ late game.
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[...]
1) The problem is if you are playing oddity mode there's just no way to bring burrower's accuracy down to 10% with evasion early game on dominating, 50% is just not good enough.
2) My point w/ Grover is that he's a very weak npc, my char was overleveled with the best setup possible for dodge and it STILL FAILED. 50% dodge rate is just not good enough.
[...]
In the past (pre ver 1.0.3) many dodge/evasion builds are without uncanny dodge/sprint/evasive maneuvers [...]. This is either because there are far better alternative and/or just simply can't afford the feat slot. These builds traded skill point in order to save ability points and/or feat slot, with the prime example being crossbow builds. I would argue uncanny dodge + evasive maneuvers greatly enhance dodge/evasion but are not truly the core of d/e builds. You simply cannot activate uncanny dodge when you are ambushed by a lurker (and lost initiative check) assassin. Evasive maneuvers will only save you from aimed shot/shock bolt/burst for one turn while realistically d/e builds need to be safe from those threats for more than one turns. In addition, if you have enough MP for evasive maneuvers/sprint to be effective it's usually far better to run away (outside enemies' weapon optimal range) and/or break line of sight. This is not ... the desired tactics for some special melee build such as a crit brawler/psi monk.
Correct me if I am wrong, but your goal, so far as I can understand it from these quotations, is to see if it is possible -- on Dominating difficulty, mind you -- to develop a Dodge & Evasion build that can push most enemies' chance to hit below 50% (preferably 10%, if not full immunity) by the time that the player commonly encounters them (e.g. a level 5 character dodging rathounds and burrowers in the early-game) without use of Uncanny Dodge & Evasive Maneuvers. Correct? This is what you are testing the viability of?
Doesn't that sound a little... unrealistic? This is the hardest difficulty in the game, mind you. It's called "DOMINATING," in all caps, for a reason. There's even a disclaimer on it that says "We do not guarantee that the game can be completed in this mode so choose at your own peril." It shouldn't be a cake-walk.
Now, I understand wanting to conserve feat slots. Believe me; I've played a crossbow-user and a psi-monk. But... shouldn't the ability to avoid practically all attacks still warrant use over something like Expertise or Recklessness? IDK, call me crazy, but when you're setting your build up around alpha-striking enemies to death within the first round, anyway, 1-turn immunity feats still sound pretty good. ;)
Yeah, putting Uncanny Dodge and Evasive Maneuvers aside, you're not going to be able to dodge more than half of the attacks that get thrown at you, but considering that you're playing on the hardest difficulty, is that really so lamentable? A 50% hit-ratio may not be "good enough" if you can only take a couple of hits before dying, but it's better than a 95% hit-ratio, and I think that difference alone still warrants the use of Dodge & Evasion on Dominating difficulty.
Regardless, I suppose that I am really just squabbling over your use of the word "viable," at this point. After all, wouldn't it be a bad thing if Dominating wasn't a challenge, no matter how hard you try to mitigate it? Remember, Styg only put this difficulty in for crazy idiots like us that feel compelled to try it out even if it destroys us. ;D
And let me state that I mean no hostility towards you at all, destroyor. Truthfully, you are a much better Underrail player than I. I just enjoy debating with you. :P
You do whatever makes you happiest, my friend. :)
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Correct me if I am wrong, but your goal, so far as I can understand it from these quotations, is to see if it is possible -- on Dominating difficulty, mind you -- to develop a Dodge & Evasion build that can push most enemies' chance to hit below 50% (preferably 10%, if not full immunity) by the time that the player commonly encounters them (e.g. a level 5 character dodging rathounds and burrowers in the early-game) without use of Uncanny Dodge & Evasive Maneuvers. Correct? This is what you are testing the viability of?
Doesn't that sound a little... unrealistic? This is the hardest difficulty in the game, mind you. It's called "DOMINATING," in all caps, for a reason. There's even a disclaimer on it that says "We do not guarantee that the game can be completed in this mode so choose at your own peril." It shouldn't be a cake-walk.
Yes on the surface the goal might seems overly ambitious, but the increased amount of enemies on dominating also means it's possible to power level. By cherry picking fights and easy quests I was able to reach level 14 beating depot A and level 17 just by exploring core city killing thugs and mutants. Combine max level w/ jumping beans, adrenaline, infused leather gear + boxing gloves it *might* be possible to reach my goal for everything pre-Tchortist. We'll see. :)
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1) The problem is if you are playing oddity mode there's just no way to bring burrower's accuracy down to 10% with evasion early game on dominating, 50% is just not good enough.
2) My point w/ Grover is that he's a very weak npc, my char was overleveled with the best setup possible for dodge and it STILL FAILED. 50% dodge rate is just not good enough.
1) I played oddity mode the first time. It doesn't work for me. Going around Underrail is fun in itself, I don't wanna be discouraged by overused oddity types etc. That XP mode is OP is another matter.
2) Maybe all enemies got a flat bonus to accuracy? Then you'd need a flat amount of Evasion to make it even.
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All enemies in dominating received a 30% skill increase - meaning more damage + accuracy.
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Correct me if I am wrong, but your goal, so far as I can understand it from these quotations, is to see if it is possible -- on Dominating difficulty, mind you -- to develop a Dodge & Evasion build that can push most enemies' chance to hit below 50% (preferably 10%, if not full immunity) by the time that the player commonly encounters them (e.g. a level 5 character dodging rathounds and burrowers in the early-game) without use of Uncanny Dodge & Evasive Maneuvers. Correct? This is what you are testing the viability of?
Doesn't that sound a little... unrealistic? This is the hardest difficulty in the game, mind you. It's called "DOMINATING," in all caps, for a reason. There's even a disclaimer on it that says "We do not guarantee that the game can be completed in this mode so choose at your own peril." It shouldn't be a cake-walk.
That must be Classic XP though, not Oddity.
Yes on the surface the goal might seems overly ambitious, but the increased amount of enemies on dominating also means it's possible to power level. By cherry picking fights and easy quests I was able to reach level 14 beating depot A and level 17 just by exploring core city killing thugs and mutants. Combine max level w/ jumping beans, adrenaline, infused leather gear + boxing gloves it *might* be possible to reach my goal for everything pre-Tchortist. We'll see. :)
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Once I tried playing this game on DOMINATING. Never again.
Finished my DOMINATING playthrough just now. A few spoily remarks below are in ROT-13.
Most of the fun for me was seeing the new things and having the "are you fucking kidding me???" moments. There were quite a few of those and I loved them all. Silent Isle, the guards around the Hanging Rat, gur arj yhexref gung unat bhg va gung pbaarpgvat mbar, the Lunatic shopping mall, ARKE power station, the Tchort fight. More I don't remember offhand. Very cool to have these crazy scenarios to work through. I spent most of an afternoon on the Lunatic shopping mall.
The revised Eye of Tchort is pretty awful. Maybe too much, if there is anything that might be too much I think this would be it. I did get used to it, though. Really glad I [possibly significant spoiler even for experienced players] qvqa'g unaq bire qrgevghf gb gur gpubegvfgf, I wasn't thinking about long run consequences at the time, but boy that was a good call.
I liked that I was pushed to use some new tricks. I never bothered with the doctor's pouch on a non-psi char before, it was my default belt here. Never used riot armor before (well, excepting CAU), made and used some here, quite handy. Ate a lot of burrower burgers that I never bothered with before. My build was energy weapons, and usually I stick tightly to my build concept, but here I used chem pistols and an assault rifle in places. Threw many, many, many grenades. (One thing I should have done differently is take Grenadier earlier.)
Other people have said that DOMINATING feels like playing the game for the first time again. I had a little of that feeling. Wasn't always sure what the solution to a problem was, or if my character would even be able to find one. And there was quite a bit of straight up new content, too. Great stuff.
All that said, DOMINATING is a little too hard and grindy for me to want to play on it regularly. Awesome place to visit, don't think I want to live there. From what I've heard, the new Hard is notably harder than the old Hard, so it may be my sweet spot. I'll try that out on the next (chem pistols) playthrough. I will probably try a heavy armor playthrough on DOMINATING at some point, since I feel like no-stealth tank is a substantially different experience than my usual stealthy approach. I'll be interested to hear what others say about heavy armor on DOMINATING in the meantime.
Thanks much to Stygian for making all these new stuffs available. This was a fun way to spend my holiday time off. Looking forward to the expansion.
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Currently playing a heavy gunner, and it is not the cakewalk everybody says. That's mainly due to a) death stalkers and b) huge groups of strong enemies, where you need CC more than single-target damage (bursts aren't CC enough here). I have max damage threshold and I still get hit by death stalkers every time and even burrowers sometimes. Heavy armor sure helps, but it's not the "walk into a hail of gunfire and slowly beat people to death while humming to yourself" experience it used to be.
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Currently playing a heavy gunner, and it is not the cakewalk everybody says. That's mainly due to a) death stalkers and b) huge groups of strong enemies, where you need CC more than single-target damage (bursts aren't CC enough here). I have max damage threshold and I still get hit by death stalkers every time and even burrowers sometimes. Heavy armor sure helps, but it's not the "walk into a hail of gunfire and slowly beat people to death while humming to yourself" experience it used to be.
Are you using super steel set? If you are looking for mechanical damage threshold you should try to get a full tungsten set. Best case scenario it's Mech 95%/35 for SS and Mech 95%/61 for Tungsten - you'll lose a lot of energy resist but shield can make up for it. You need one extra strength to wear Tungsten and rathound BBQ can take care of that. Obviously you won't get components with quality that high in a regular game but you should still aim and hunt for tungsten.
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Super steel metal armor
4X Q160 super steel
Q133 regen vest
Mech 71%/26
Super steel metal helmet
Q160 super steel
Q149 high density padding
Mech 12%/4
Super steel metal boots
2X Q160 super steel
Q149 high density padding
Mech 22%/5
Total
Mech 105% (cap at 95%)/35
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Tungsten metal armor
4X Q147 Tungsten
Q133 regen vest
Mech 70%/45
Tungsten metal helmet
Q147 Tungsten
Q149 high density padding
Mech 11%/7
Tungsten metal boots
2X Q147 Tungsten
Q149 high density padding
Mech 20%/9
Total
Mech 101% (cap at 95%)/61
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what armor
Im level 15, havent done foundry yet, and I have something like 70%/39 (88%) if I'm wearing my helmet instead of goggles. I used quality 80-90 plates. Obviously I don't mean that I'm maxed out for the whole game, just for where I am.
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Currently playing a heavy gunner, and it is not the cakewalk everybody says. That's mainly due to a) death stalkers and b) huge groups of strong enemies, where you need CC more than single-target damage (bursts aren't CC enough here). I have max damage threshold and I still get hit by death stalkers every time and even burrowers sometimes. Heavy armor sure helps, but it's not the "walk into a hail of gunfire and slowly beat people to death while humming to yourself" experience it used to be.
Do you mind sharing your general build?
Looking at playing the same kind of character, heavy gunner, myself. Always nice to have some inspiration.
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I will probably try a heavy armor playthrough on DOMINATING at some point, since I feel like no-stealth tank is a substantially different experience than my usual stealthy approach. I'll be interested to hear what others say about heavy armor on DOMINATING in the meantime.
It's...different. I'm note exactly sure it is possible. My heavy sledg character still had points in stealth and suit of stealthy garb to help with difficult stuff like Lunatics. Been trying to play with heavy AR character without stealth and even with 10 Con i think it's too much for him. I'm still in first chapter and i don't think that even after i get best armor i can finish the game, mainly because of aforementioned Lunatics. Have no idea how to handle a mall with no stealth and noisy weapon.
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Do you mind sharing your general build?
(http://i66.tinypic.com/207w4tl.png)
Lvl 15, S8(9)/D3/A3/C7/P13/W3/I6
Maxed Guns/Throw/Hack/Lock/Mech/Elec
Mixed Chem/Bio/Tail
I could have put points into stealth or persuasion without much loss here
Conditioning, Aimed Shot, Expertise, Opportunist, Quick Pockets, Juggernaut, Full Auto, Commando, Concentrated Fire
Rapid Muzzled Hornets 7.62/8.6/9mm
Smart Anatomical Bipod Corsair 12.7
Smart Goggles (used adaptive for a long time at first)
Efficient High x2 Shield, working on Efficient Low x2 for meleers
Boots are double plate + dense foam
Stealth Gear: Muzzled Silenced Jackrabbit 5mm, ninja tabis, hopper soft black leather, black balaclava, cloak device
Utilities are absolutely essential; get tactical with them, and carry at least 15 bear traps anytime you go out
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It's...different. I'm note exactly sure it is possible.
Yeah, I have some doubts myself. At least for myself. But I've seen people do the impossible in games often enough to suspect that someone will be able to make it work.
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Sorry don't have the time to read the entire thread right now but would a high str/con sledgehammer build work on Dominating? I want to try the build out because I've never played it before but I'm currently running 3 builds in parallel on hard and I don't want to do yet another one unless it's on higher difficulty.
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Let's look closely what high Con can privide us? Almost nothing, at least on Domination.
I think my stealth-sledgehammer has more tactical advantages.
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Let's look closely what high Con can privide us? Almost nothing, at least on Domination.
I think my stealth-sledgehammer has more tactical advantages.
Кто о чем, а вшивый о бане.
Sorry don't have the time to read the entire thread right now but would a high str/con sledgehammer build work on Dominating? I want to try the build out because I've never played it before but I'm currently running 3 builds in parallel on hard and I don't want to do yet another one unless it's on higher difficulty.
In theory, yes, but it really depends on specific build and how good you are at the game. I do not recommend playing on Dominating unless you find Hard very easy. Post your build in separate thread and i'll say wherever it is possible for you to finish the game with it in my opinion
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Let's look closely what high Con can privide us? Almost nothing, at least on Domination.
CON is just as useful on DOMINATING as on Hard, if not more.
Best example I can think of: CON means more HP, more HP means you are less likely to get killed by Death Stalker's sting and can afford to use antidote without dying. You will not be able to avoid them with stealth until you get past their instant detection threshold, which is at least above 120+ effective stealth. Then you need really high detection, slightly above 250 in my experience. I was only able to spot them before they spot me on level 22 with 14 PER and Paranoia, no motion tracking goggles though.
It also makes you generally more likely to survive being hit, which is going to happen more often considering there's a lot more enemies on DOMINATING and they are harder to hit.
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You are absolutely right about Death Stalkers, but what besides them?
Psionics will tear that build apart to smithereens.
On the other hand, IF we will get some Con-based feat that greatly descreasing psionic-induced/inflicted damage, then Con will be great again.
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What are the real defenses against psi?
Resolve
Bullhead/thick skull
correct padding
sometimes shield emitters
pre-emptive black dragon poison
Frankly I don't know what you're supposed to do when they hit you with mental subversion and summon two dopplegangers.
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Psionics will tear that build apart to smithereens. On the other hand, IF we will get some Con-based feat that greatly descreasing psionic-induced/inflicted damage, then Con will great again.
CON is one of the very few things that can actually increase your survivability against thought control psi. Dodge/evasion won't work, DR/DT from armor won't work, shield won't work, having more HP will work. Having high resolve and/or Locus of Control will also work, but that's for psi builds only.
You also need to keep in mind that CON increases fortitude, which increases the chance of resisting stun/incapacitation effects that are physical rather than mental in nature. I feel this is a very underrated stat. Now that infused siphoner tabis don't give an immuity to immobilization, I switched to infused big leather tabis (they give a sizeable fortitude bonus) and beat DOMINATING wearing them. At 8 CON and wearing them, I was able to resist roughly 6 out of 10 stuns from Telekinetic Punch and roughly half of stuns coming from crawler poison. This can be a real life saver. You are still susceptible to Mental Breakdown, but you can't have everything.
Frankly I don't know what you're supposed to do when they hit you with mental subversion and summon two dopplegangers.
There are basically 2 options. You either run away as fast as possible, or use morphine, position yourself in a way that makes only one doppelganger able to hit you if possible and suck it up. In both cases having more HP helps, might not matter in the 1st case sometimes.
Or you just fry them with Neural Overload, but that's for psi builds only.
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You are right, but it's not "armor/evasion vs Con", it's "glass cannon power to kill fast vs no such power + Con".
If you don't put ability points in Con, you put them into something that help to eliminate the threat faster.
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If you don't put ability points in Con, you put them into something that help to eliminate the threat faster.
That's true. It's all about finding the proper balance of defense and offense if you ask me. I don't think it's worth it to dump CON all the way to 3 on most builds.
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Guys did you have any luck with pure PSI build? Are traps and greandes really mandatory for DOMINATING?
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You mean pure PSI is a build that doesn't even touch traps and grenades in his life?
Or you mean it's a build who doesn't pick trap and grenades-related feats?
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Guys did you have any luck with pure PSI build? Are traps and greandes really mandatory for DOMINATING?
Currently playing with full psi build(20 lvl Core City, oddity), will create some topic later after I will clear DC and last boss. No grenades, caltrops, traps. 3/3/6/9/10/6. Recorded videos with almost all "trouble points" - Newton, Rathound King, Foundry Beast, Arena, mb something else.
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Guys did you have any luck with pure PSI build? Are traps and greandes really mandatory for DOMINATING?
Currently playing with full psi build(20 lvl Core City, oddity), will create some topic later after I will clear DC and last boss. No grenades, caltrops, traps. 3/3/6/9/10/6. Recorded videos with almost all "trouble points" - Newton, Rathound King, Foundry Beast, Arena, mb something else.
Interesting. 9 con for Survival Instincts? Or you meant perception?
You mean pure PSI is a build that doesn't even touch traps and grenades in his life?
Or you mean it's a build who doesn't pick trap and grenades-related feats?
No feats but I guess few skillpoints won't hurt that much.
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Interesting. 9 con for Survival Instincts? Or you meant perception?
Yeah, for Survival Instincts and Last Stand., It's 50-65% critical build. You don't need grenades/trap for full psi, It's self-sufficient.
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Traps and grenades works fine without single skill point in it.
They need slight nerf. Molotov will solve all problems of early game.
I think you can eleminate all mutants in Deport A only by using traps and molotovs with 0 in Traps and grenades.
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Traps and grenades works fine without single skill point in it.
They need slight nerf. Molotove will solve all problems of early game.
I think you can eleminate all mutants in Deport A only by using traps and molotovs with 0 in Traps and grenades.
can't disagree with that on traps, but grenades are kinda balanced because you'll miss a lot without any investment in the skill making it so you need to savescum hard if you plan to use them on that place full of muties in the junkyard
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No, no need for that. Molotovs deal not much damage when explode, biggesr part is standing in fire.
So you can threw it nearby without much harm, and if you have even the worst shield, you can throw it without fear.
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Traps and grenades works fine without single skill point in it.
They need slight nerf. Molotove will solve all problems of early game.
I think you can eleminate all mutants in Deport A only by using traps and molotovs with 0 in Traps and grenades.
can't disagree with that on traps, but grenades are kinda balanced because you'll miss a lot without any investment in the skill making it so you need to savescum hard if you plan to use them on that place full of muties in the junkyard
I'll say this, playing a dodge/evasion build on DOMINATING without a lot of CON practically requires either decent Throwing or savescumming when it comes to grenades. While fighting some Rathounds with a couple Alphas in the back, I lobbed a Frag Grenade and ended up flubbing the throw and if my CON was any lower while sporting a PSI build, I would have finally gotten Steam's You Throw Like A Girl achievement and been looking at yet another reload screen. When playing Classic on Dominating, simply clearing most of the map and doing the major missions/quests in each city as well as side areas can lead you to being level 23/24 as you step into Core City. Playing DOMINATING on Classic XP once the expansion hits and yeah, you'd hit level 25 and Veteran feats long before actively pursuing some of the later Core City quests/missions. In fact, I'd say that you could easily hit the level cap post-expansion by doing so before stepping into the Institute, especially if you choose to support the Protectorate/Free Drones.
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Actually boring Domination.
It was slighly harder to win Arena and some moment as turning into ashes Fort Apogee...
Still not faced Tchort, but *yawn* ... ah, neverming.
And I really, REALLY want to see in nearest update Veteran levels... PLEASE, STYG, I BEG YOU! DO THIS!
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Do you mind sharing your general build?
Lvl 15, S8(9)/D3/A3/C7/P13/W3/I6
Maxed Guns/Throw/Hack/Lock/Mech/Elec
Mixed Chem/Bio/Tail
I could have put points into stealth or persuasion without much loss here
Conditioning, Aimed Shot, Expertise, Opportunist, Quick Pockets, Juggernaut, Full Auto, Commando, Concentrated Fire
Rapid Muzzled Hornets 7.62/8.6/9mm
Smart Anatomical Bipod Corsair 12.7
Smart Goggles (used adaptive for a long time at first)
Efficient High x2 Shield, working on Efficient Low x2 for meleers
Boots are double plate + dense foam
Stealth Gear: Muzzled Silenced Jackrabbit 5mm, ninja tabis, hopper soft black leather, black balaclava, cloak device
Utilities are absolutely essential; get tactical with them, and carry at least 15 bear traps anytime you go out
I finally finished dominating with a heavy gunner build utilizing the tips you provided. I traded throwing for stealth, allowing me to avoid certain fights in DC.
Unfortunately I couldn't manage to beat the game without some significant save-scumming at certain points. :( Huge props to anyone able to.
Thank you for posting your build!
PS: DC is a living nightmare, I'm not sure how anyone could do it without tons of save-scumming. Stockpiled traps like a madman, by the end I had practically nothing left in my inventory to utilize.
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Unfortunately I couldn't manage to beat the game without some significant save-scumming at certain points.
Can i ask how many reloads did you have to do in the final fight? To get some perspective)
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Unfortunately I couldn't manage to beat the game without some significant save-scumming at certain points.
Can i ask how many reloads did you have to do in the final fight? To get some perspective)
The final fight (If you mean the boss fight) wasn't too bad. It was the rest of DC that required a large amount of save-scumming, I don't have an accurate estimate of reloads. But it was an EMBARRASSING amount of save scumming. ;(
I'm going to try a chem-pistol build next, I think it will be much more viable.
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I killed Carni at the first attempt. What the hell.
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I did it twice - as Garry, and at Arena.
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I killed Carni at the first attempt. What the hell.
I'm so jealous! Nice job!
What was your build/spec? :O
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I killed Carni at the first attempt. What the hell.
I'm so jealous! Nice job!
What was your build/spec? :O
SMG with Grenadier. Didn't need to shoot much. Flashbang does wonders and napalm makes for some silly AI/pathfinding. The incendiary AI is almost an exploit in my book.
Oh, and I lost Everard's "abandoned rifle". Gotta make a different build. I was already doing univ quests.
The first time playing on Normal I had to use serious tactics -- hard metal armor below strength limit, then throw napalm at my feet.
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I'm at Silent Isle, classic glass cannon stealth PSI build.
The new uber PSI beetle is fucking retarded bullshit. Stuck because of ONE FUCKING SINGLE critter.
Can't stealth because of strange feeling + sheer number of critters. Can't kill everything without Broderick dying (fucking stupid retarded IA with no sense of self-preservation)
Can't do anything (because of course if Broderick die, you're FUCKING STUCK)
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I'm at Silent Isle, classic glass cannon stealth PSI build.
The new uber PSI beetle is fucking retarded bullshit. Stuck because of ONE FUCKING SINGLE critter.
Can't stealth because of strange feeling + sheer number of critters. Can't kill everything without Broderick dying (fucking stupid retarded IA with no sense of self-preservation)
Can't do anything (because of course if Broderick die, you're FUCKING STUCK)
It can be tough but if you have a save from before you left, just reload it and go get a bunch of traps and grenades. Make sure you're at least level 6 so you have Premeditation, or if you're on Classic XP, at least level 8. You should be able to delay Silent Isle until at least level 8 Oddity/ 10 Classic if you want. For me, I find the +30 health belt, plus two pieces of Pig Leather are a huge help. Eat a CON burger too. You'll have enough health to survive a Psicognitive Interruption.
Anyway, use grenades to make a lot of racket. It'll pull some of the beetles and the rathounds. Your goal is to lay down a bunch of molotovs and flashbangs to keep the big beetles out of the fight. Use Premeditation to get your electrokinesis out to them, while you stand on that little spit of land where Broderick drops you off. Don't be afraid to hide yourself behind a Force Field to break LOS as well. You'll be drinking Psi Boosters like they're juice pouches but you should be able to do it. Once you've taken out the first group (which may come in two waves, if you're lucky), you can Premeditation and then run along the western side of the Isle until you're just barely in sight range of the Goliaths. You'll have about 3 stacks when you get into sight range. Manually start combat, chuck a grenade to make some noise, and hit one of the goliaths with a fireball or lightning, then start running back. When your doppelganger coalesces, just mindmurder it and get back to Broderick. If your traps don't take out the beetles, your grenades will.
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Op . . . tional . . .
Optional ?
Optional ?!
NOTHING IS OPTIONAL IN A C-RPG !
COMPLETIONISM OR DIE !
Ok thanks to a lucky molotov I manged to clean the "harbour" and keep broderick alive, I shut down the MP and got Bilocation . . . and I'm still fucked because their is way too much critters including 2 uber beetles around the cargo
Strangely now deaf critters so I can't have them to leave the area using a grenade/pyrokinesis.
Just bullshit. Stupid plain retarded bad Underrail design at it's finest. Thanks Styg.
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COMPLETIONISM OR DIE !
After my own heart, I see.
Strangely now deaf critters so I can't have them to leave the area using a grenade/pyrokinesis.
Well, premeditation will let you tag anything that's at the edge of your sight radius, or if you don't have premeditation for some reason cryokinesis has a very long range. So run over, tag one, and run back. Probably fewer than all of them will follow. If you've set mines and got grenades, you can safely pull them back and kill them one by one. Stay on the landing, keep the big beetles locked down, and Broderick will both be helpful and survive. You can bandage him up between the fights. It's just a matter of pulling well.
it would be nice if you could sail back to Junkyard and play the rest of your playthrough without a ferry captain in there, essentially removing fast travel from Junkyard and cutting off access to Silent Isle without a jetski.
Can you imagine Gorsky's reaction to that, though? There'd be nothing to influence Junkyard away from total Protectorate control. He'd lose his mind.
Then, later, you could get him to recommend Dan as a replacement boat captain. Foundry got boring after the mine kerfuffle was resolved, so you can get Gorsky to recommend lazy old Dan to take over that - actually quite economically important - job.
"Man, why would I want to go run a boat service when I can just stand here and watch nothing happen?"
"Dan, you could be your own boss. And who knows, maybe there would be pirates to shoot at sometimes? You'd make better money than you do here. And if a customer tries to stiff you, you can punch him and drop him into the lake."
"...you had me at punching random people."
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Industrial bot + triple 40 hp regenerating Death Stalker . . . Thanks, door that let me close/open thee for 30 min to regen my Premeditation ! What an interesting fight !
The archetype of badly done """"""hardcore""""""" difficulty.
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Industrial bot + triple 40 hp regenerating Death Stalker . . . Thanks, door that let me close/open thee for 30 min to regen my Premeditation ! What an interesting fight !
The archetype of badly done """"""hardcore""""""" difficulty.
Oh, that little fight? Why wouldn't you just lay down molotovs, and keep the Death Stalkers incapacitated so they stay stuck in the fire? DoTs don't break incapacitation.
You know, your complaints are more and more showing that you don't understand how to play the game, not that the game is bad. You're obviously playing Psi, so here's how to do that fight.
Sneak/walk to near door and open it. Cryo on kamikaze bot. Noise pulls Death Stalkers and industrial bot+plasma sentries. EMP to stun the bots while the stalkers get closer. Molotov. Force Field to protect you when the EMP wears off so that all the enemies end up standing close around you. Premeditate. Force field drops - molotov, EMP, flashbang. TK Punch if a death stalker resists. Skip a turn. Molotov, Locus of Control, Mental Breakdown. Step inside room, close door. Open+close on your turn. When Breakdown wears off, open, adrenaline, molotov, EMP, flashbang.
Fight's over but the cleanup.
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Industrial bot + triple 40 hp regenerating Death Stalker . . . Thanks, door that let me close/open thee for 30 min to regen my Premeditation ! What an interesting fight !
The archetype of badly done """"""hardcore""""""" difficulty.
Oh, that little fight? Why wouldn't you just lay down molotovs, and keep the Death Stalkers incapacitated so they stay stuck in the fire? DoTs don't break incapacitation.
You know, your complaints are more and more showing that you don't understand how to play the game, not that the game is bad. You're obviously playing Psi, so here's how to do that fight.
Sneak/walk to near door and open it. Cryo on kamikaze bot. Noise pulls Death Stalkers and industrial bot+plasma sentries. EMP to stun the bots while the stalkers get closer. Molotov. Force Field to protect you when the EMP wears off so that all the enemies end up standing close around you. Premeditate. Force field drops - molotov, EMP, flashbang. TK Punch if a death stalker resists. Skip a turn. Molotov, Locus of Control, Mental Breakdown. Step inside room, close door. Open+close on your turn. When Breakdown wears off, open, adrenaline, molotov, EMP, flashbang.
Fight's over but the cleanup.
COUGH*
Sorry, I obviously missed the part where a PSI user must use more grenades than PSI abilities and trick even more the bad IA/design oversights (DoTs don't break incapacitation ! Molotov/flashbang/LoC induced mental breakdown spam ! I'm such a GOOD Underrail player !) even more => So I confirm : stupidly bad """""hardcore""""" difficulty done extremely wrong.
Note that I have NEVER said that Underrail itself is bad :wink:
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Sorry, I obviously missed the part where a PSI user must use more grenades than PSI abilities and trick even more the bad IA/design oversights
No, the part you seem to have missed was that Dominating isn't meant to be "facetank, I win" every fight. I was just giving you the way that requires no luck, and the fewest special abilities so it doesn't much require you have a certain build. Want a way to handle that with mostly psi? No problem.
When you pop the kamikaze bot, throw caltrops so you can see the Death Stalkers coming. One EMP for the plasma sentry because you don't want to have to fight through those shields with raw damage. When the stalkers get close to the robots, Premeditate, Psionic Mania, Cryokinetic Orb. That'll probably kill the Death Stalkers, but if not, follow up with either a Pyrokinesis (if you have Pyromaniac and/or Thermodynamicity) or Electrokinesis (especially if you have Electrokinetic Induction). Put a ThermoD on the plasma sentry if you feel like it, or Implode the Industrial Bot, but heat and mechanical aren't much help against Industrial Bots on Dominating. Cryo spam with electro as possible until the bot gets close, Cryo stasis, run to the other side of the hallway, cryo spam + electro. Eventually it'll die.
Don't want to run back and forth? Bring a bunch of HE mines, one EMP, and four frags. Don't want to do any of that? Figure something else out. There are lots of ways to win that fight, but if you think you can just run through Dominating relying on raw damage, then the failure really isn't the game.
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I play PSI and you think I think i intent rely on pure damage ? If it isn't an ad personam . . .
I was just giving you the way that requires no luck
Yeah sure, throwing a lot of grenades with 0 throwing skill surely doesn't involve luck . . .
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Ho ho ho the arena . . . 400% more health on DOMINATING! (why, I thought it should by 50%, how naive of me), right.
I know you had this conversation on RPG Codex forum epeli, but seriously, that hp bloating looks so amateurish . . .
Carniflex down, meh. Thanks proxied implosion.
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COMPLETIONISM OR DIE !
Haha, classic! That's my fixed idea motto too.
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Sure is middle school in here alluva sudden.
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Most damage should break incapacitation, but there is no strict game-mechanical rule to the exceptions. They just try to follow common sense. So while DoTs like poisons and bleeds won't break the effect, being on fire certainly should.
You meanie! That breaks Carni cheese too!
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Since I was railing hard on the codex on this difficulty I'll just throw in my two Stygian Coins:
1.) I call the new difficulty "Autistic" due the damage increase and more importantly the annoying HP bloat which makes bursting even more important since the majority of builds are at risk to die in one round anyway or in just a two or three rounds if they cannot CC/LoS the enemy properly though this depends a little on the numbers, level and gear/skill available to the enemies. On top of the substantial HP increase there is also a significant increase in the amount of enemies, easily tripling or quadrupling effective HP to burn through in many places. I hate this kind of artfificial difficulty already in other games and therefore criticize it here as well.
2.) This leads to what I call cheese tactics are even more invited now like knowing where and in what numbers enemies are and using/abusing Crawler poison caltrops and molotovs even more as a band aid to the absurd numbers in certain areas or on certain quests. In my opinion if a difficulty requires meta knowledge and the abuse of cheese it is a bad difficulty.
3.) The new monsters are cool but far too common. They should be roadblocks or tough encounters to certain optional content not there being dime a dozen of the mill grunts. Furthermore in some places this breaks my immersion completely like the 6 Goliathus beetles near the Hanging Rat. Why? Because they can murderize even high level characters if caught unprepared. This is important since the Hanging Rat does have patrons which implies they go in and out there on a more or less regular basis. Considering the proximity of the beetles to the final cross road leading to the Hanging Rat makes me wonder how come that they have not wiped it out yet. Whats worse beetles are usually found around Mindshrooms yet there are hardly any Mindshrooms if any in that area. Gigantic psi beeltes like those should be more interested in areas which are full of these not mere bridges.
4.) Death Stalker comes too early and many stealth builds can not deal with them without cheesing aka throwing Moltov or Caltrops or Flares around where you assume they are even though your detection has not even begun to pick up on them. It is bad difficulty design if a person has to know where the enemies are in order to deal with them. Certainly there are builds which can deal with them even early on without using what I call cheese but stealth builds can get easily creamed by them even with shields up. On top of their special debuff against medicines and the usual hit and run tactic they deal a very high amount of damage per round. Meeting them before level 10 which is easily possible and worse even in large packs like in Core City if you go through the underground unto the Depot is pretty tiresome.
5.) The AI cannot handle the increased amount of enemies and the new types. The best example is Roderick on Silent Isle. Previously I would very patiently stealth through this section but the absurd amount of critters now makes this approach basically impossible without a lot of save scumming and luck since on top of the increased numbers Roderick has a penchant for attacking the critters on his own and him dying means automatically a reload since you cannot escape from the island without him. What is even more hilariously stupid and immersion breaking that in real time the PSI beetles tend to no use PSI at all and just rush to him in melee. It bums me that the Silent Isle is now basically a combat exclusive area.
Another example are Dan and Saban during the Beast quest. Due to the insane amount of extra spawns they will run out of ammo and run into the Bladelings in melee. What is worse is that Saban's Plasma Sentry is utterly retarded. Far too often does it waste a turn just transforming into a plasma turret dealing no damage at all only to revert back and shooting with its laser cannons anyway. Also it does not really deal any more damage as a plasma turret so I fail to see why it even does that.
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Another example are Dan and Saban during the Beast quest. Due to the insane amount of extra spawns they will run out of ammo and run into the Bladelings in melee.
If you'll make a stack of gas grenades and just cover the ground with bear traps or acid traps before you activate the doohickey, then you can lay down a horrifying miasma of death and your allies will do so much extra damage that they won't run out of ammo, even if you do very little actual killing yourself. That fight is basically the most perfect setpiece for using gas grenades and immobility that I can imagine.
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This forces you into building up Chemistry to make gas grenades since to my knowledge they are not sold by anyone but yes it was pointed out to me that this is a possible tactical choice. Another one is to have a bunch of Crawler poison Caltrops at hand.
Still my main gripe here is that the AI and their equipment are just stupid and make no sense. Both Dan and Saban know about the hard shells acting as active bullet protection so why do they not have at least some armor piercing bullets and why do they have relatively few ammunition in the first place? I never come close to run out of ammo when I am fighting them so why would they?
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This forces you into building up Chemistry to make gas grenades since to my knowledge they are not sold by anyone
Yeah, fair point. They only take effective 20 Bio, 20 Chem, and 5 Mech and I always on every character have at least that much so I do assume that, and I shouldn't. Fair point.
Bear traps and HE mines, then. With just the Jackknife you'll get the 5 you need to place HE. That has no skill or stat requirements, and though you'd need to lay traps all the way along the fenceline back to where Dan and Saban stand, you could probably do it.
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I did solve the fight the way you suggested but I needed some reloads to make sure that Saban and Dan survive which considering the length of this stupid and boring fight makes it all the more infuriating considering the very simple solution.
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Bear traps and HE mines, then. With just the Jackknife you'll get the 5 you need to place HE. That has no skill or stat requirements, and though you'd need to lay traps all the way along the fenceline back to where Dan and Saban stand, you could probably do it.
Don't bother with mark 1 HE mines there; they aren't good enough for that encounter. When I did it, I placed over 40 bear traps and 20 HE mines, and the mines ended up being a waste.
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Bear traps and HE mines, then. With just the Jackknife you'll get the 5 you need to place HE. That has no skill or stat requirements, and though you'd need to lay traps all the way along the fenceline back to where Dan and Saban stand, you could probably do it.
Don't bother with mark 1 HE mines there; they aren't good enough for that encounter. When I did it, I placed over 40 bear traps and 20 HE mines, and the mines ended up being a waste.
HE mines do some damage at least because they ignore a portion of DR. Frag mines deal basically no damage at all. It is not much but considering the retarded HP bloat in this fight but everything that does even a little damage helps.
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Anyone tried SMG their way through Deep Caverns? How much ammo would I need to just shoot through the tchortling areas?
My idea is to take several caliber SMGs, 30-40 frags, some napalm, and at least 3k bullets. It may not be enough.
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Previously I would very patiently stealth through this section but the absurd amount of critters now makes this approach basically impossible without a lot of save scumming and luck since on top of the increased numbers Roderick has a penchant for attacking the critters on his own and him dying means automatically a reload since you cannot escape from the island without him. What is even more hilariously stupid and immersion breaking that in real time the PSI beetles tend to no use PSI at all and just rush to him in melee. It bums me that the Silent Isle is now basically a combat exclusive area.
For what it's worth, though I *sometimes* have to load once or twice (the Captain can get randomly engaged over his head, luck does somewhat factor in) it is very much possible to regularly one-shot (no save/loads) (with stealth builds) under level 10. Do you have interloper and optionally some cheap ninjatabis with +speed or other initial stealth gear (and maybe an Agility steak)? Are you using adrenaline in the "safety" area near the crystal room transition for a quick grab? Are you using combat-controlled stealth movement to your advantage (it freezes enemies in place if they don't see you yet)?
I have *never* used damage-dealing to complete Silent Isle on Dominating and I've completed several such runs now (and even more completing at least the Silent Isle...always go on the Azure bug side).
However, the way I approach Silent Isle (and the rest of my runs) is to semi-scientifically break down and analyze the geometry, movements, skills, and tactics needed. I agree with you that you can't just willy-nilly stealth the island like on lower difficulties, but I feel that that is kind of the point. Dominating *forces* you to fully optimize for what you want to do and go all-in on doing it and will still heavily punish you if you make execution mistakes. Unless I'm misremembering, this difficulty is specifically designed for people who already know the game from start to finish.
So it's in no way true that you *must* fight to complete Silent Isle or that you *must* have save/loading in order to use stealth there, but it definitely has potential for bad luck and very thin margins when stealthing.
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HE mines do some damage at least because they ignore a portion of DR. Frag mines deal basically no damage at all. It is not much but considering the retarded HP bloat in this fight but everything that does even a little damage helps.
Yes, they do *some* damage, but you'd be better off putting a bear trap down instead of one.
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Foundry Beast killed.
No trap, no gas grenades no mines => Force field + thermodynamic destabilization + cerebral overload. Worked pretty well, but it was not effective enouth to save braindead NPC IA Saban and Dan . . .
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Guys, I finally finished my psionic mini-guide for DOMINATING diff with some videos, so if you want, you can find it on steam guides section, with ENG/RUS version. ;)
P.S. Thought about posting here, but it's pretty problematic with all videous and bilingual nature of the guide.
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What is the actual difference between hard and dominating now, other than dominating having higher stats? Are the numbers and types of enemies different too?
I'm asking because I think I want the "added" (if they actually are) enemies and types, but not their higher stats.
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What is the actual difference between hard and dominating now, other than dominating having higher stats? Are the numbers and types of enemies different too?
Yup. For example, on lower difficulties there are no Goliath Psi Beetles on Silent Isle; a whole lot fewer Lunatics in the Mall and Station; regular Coil Spiders instead of Greater ones in several locations. SO aside from enemies being harder to kill, there are more of them, and sometimes a wider variety. However, I don't think there are any Dominating-only creatures (though there are several Dominating-only NPCs, like the named Lunatics in Emporion or that extra, high-health guy east of Foundry in the gang), so you'll still see Greater Coil Spider, Goliath Psi Beetles, and Hunchback Mutants, just later in the game and in smaller numbers.
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You also get enemies in very inconvenient places. Which is good for me, since it spiced up my dominating run, making me change my usual tactics, often on a fly.
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Previously I would very patiently stealth through this section but the absurd amount of critters now makes this approach basically impossible without a lot of save scumming and luck since on top of the increased numbers Roderick has a penchant for attacking the critters on his own and him dying means automatically a reload since you cannot escape from the island without him. What is even more hilariously stupid and immersion breaking that in real time the PSI beetles tend to no use PSI at all and just rush to him in melee. It bums me that the Silent Isle is now basically a combat exclusive area.
For what it's worth, though I *sometimes* have to load once or twice (the Captain can get randomly engaged over his head, luck does somewhat factor in) it is very much possible to regularly one-shot (no save/loads) (with stealth builds) under level 10. Do you have interloper and optionally some cheap ninjatabis with +speed or other initial stealth gear (and maybe an Agility steak)? Are you using adrenaline in the "safety" area near the crystal room transition for a quick grab? Are you using combat-controlled stealth movement to your advantage (it freezes enemies in place if they don't see you yet)?
I have *never* used damage-dealing to complete Silent Isle on Dominating and I've completed several such runs now (and even more completing at least the Silent Isle...always go on the Azure bug side).
However, the way I approach Silent Isle (and the rest of my runs) is to semi-scientifically break down and analyze the geometry, movements, skills, and tactics needed. I agree with you that you can't just willy-nilly stealth the island like on lower difficulties, but I feel that that is kind of the point. Dominating *forces* you to fully optimize for what you want to do and go all-in on doing it and will still heavily punish you if you make execution mistakes. Unless I'm misremembering, this difficulty is specifically designed for people who already know the game from start to finish.
So it's in no way true that you *must* fight to complete Silent Isle or that you *must* have save/loading in order to use stealth there, but it definitely has potential for bad luck and very thin margins when stealthing.
I always take Interloper on my stealth builds though though I do not think you can find or buy Tabis before you are done with Depot A. As to "sientifically analyze movements" there are a lot of PSI beetles near the shrooms on the left side which you need to stand in to avoid the Bilocation proc, and the right side you can barely walk without stepping on a Rathound. Maybe you are just that much better or you abuse turn based mode a lot to get through it but with sensible gameplay I do not see a reliable way to get through it on a regular basis without reloading and/or without fighting.
What is the actual difference between hard and dominating now, other than dominating having higher stats? Are the numbers and types of enemies different too?
I'm asking because I think I want the "added" (if they actually are) enemies and types, but not their higher stats.
In a nutshell "Autistic" as I call this difficulty is an explosion of effective HP and a significant increase of damage. Even more so than before you want to burst down enemies in 1-3 rounds because the chances of dying in prolonged combat is even higher now. It also breaks immersion and friendly NPCs have a hard time coping with the increase of enemy numbers, HP and damage.
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I always take Interloper on my stealth builds though though I do not think you can find or buy Tabis before you are done with Depot A.
Ah I think you're right other than random. I forgot that the Black Eels Quest line leading to Blaine (and his store/Blueprints) is actually right *after* this quest. You definitely do not need to complete Depot A though or get Armadillo parts. I guess you'd be limited to crummy +4 stealth +1 Agility boots or something like that in the general case. I actually know for a fact that you can *possibly* get at least non-stealth +12% movement tabis or so from a mutie near the south entrance (I distinctly remember looting once) but that's likely random.
there are a lot of PSI beetles near the shrooms on the left side which you need to stand in to avoid the Bilocation proc
You do not need to visit each mushroom though. The "middle" one on the West/left side is almost always either completely clear or you can move around up/down as needed to keep the stacks cleared.
I do not see a reliable way to get through it on a regular basis without reloading and/or without fighting.
It's definitely not 100% reliable to do without reloading, but I think it's something like ~80%, probably a bit higher with intensive practice. You definitely have to very actively click in response to enemy movement, you cannot just click-click-click three times to three waypoints and be done.
In a nutshell "Autistic" as I call this difficulty is an explosion of effective HP and a significant increase of damage.
Even so, it can be completed at Level 6 with strategy and some patient reloading, so there's definitely a decent margin :). I haven't tried a Hardcore/Iron Man/Deathless run as another poster is doing, but I strongly believe that such a run could be done reliably (probably in 90%+ range).
Of course this game does have flaws, like any other, but I am skeptical that Dominating should be something that can be done without saveloading unless you have both *extreme* planning and deep game knowledge. It's a strange criticism to me because that is exactly what I expected from the mode based on its description (and based on the fact that the game has virtually no real-time "action"...everything can be measured and planned out).
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"everything can be measured and planned out"
COUGH* I'd like to remind you that opponents do criticals hits too.
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"everything can be measured and planned out"
COUGH* I'd like to remind you that opponents do criticals hits too.
You guys are very naughty with your temptations for a challenge run here. I have a lot of work at the moment! I specifically beat Dominating at Level 6 (and posted my run breakdown) because of some people complaining about Dominating being too difficult/impossible at Level 25.
Now you're going to claim that critical hits, bigger health pools, etc. make it too hard / inconsistent to do a Deathless (no saveload) Dominating? :p
I hope for Shredded Cheddar to respond...I think it's worth checking for an update from him (and maybe others will be interested in investigating this?).
http://underrail.com/forums/index.php?topic=3409.0
But for now I would remind you that opponents can only critical you when they have a chance to attack you. If you are playing "optimally" I suspect this should actually be very, very rare in and of itself.
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I haven't tried a Hardcore/Iron Man/Deathless run as another poster is doing, but I strongly believe that such a run could be done reliably (probably in 90%+ range).
FWIW, I am 100% sure that a full-game-clear (except the Carnifex fight which is uncontrollable with sufficiently bad RNG) stealth Psi run can be done on Dominating with no reloads. I haven't done one yet but that's just because I don't much care about that sort of challenge (and as you noted, am sort of waiting to see if ShreddedCheddar has success). Without stealth, I got to Emporion with Psi builds without dying. Nothing on the critical path was even substantially dangerous before DC, and having a 4-turn Force Field to hide against a wall behind while you LoC Bilocate/Enrage or wait for buffs to drop off enemies pretty much just breaks everything. Psi even makes the otherwise scary Death Stalkers quite safe to handle in groups.
Given how powerful you've shown AR builds to be, it seems you surely could do it with an AR as well. I just know Psi better than any other build and only know how to win all encounters with it.
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And just like that, squadrons of deadly robots mysteriously materialize in the expansion and on the critical path of the base game for the next update. :)
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And just like that, squadrons of deadly robots mysteriously materialize in the expansion and on the critical path of the base game for the next update. :)
Talk about hoist by me own petard. Cue the "Augh!" moment from Charlie Brown comics :-\ So you're saying the new layout for the Newton rescue mission is multilevel?
Dreadnought_Factory_Floor.map
Dreadnought_Testing_Room.map
Dreadnought_Annealing_Chambers.map
Larger_Prototype_Dreadnought_With_Overclocked_AI.map
Just_Blatantly_Ripping_Off_WH40K_Emperor_Titan.map
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No no no, surely it won't be something so crude. It'll probably be more like:
Iris: must protect father.
You: but you can't
Iris: ...
Critical error, primary OS offline, loading OS backup. Threat reassessment completed - probabilities of stopping intruder. 0%
System override per omega directive.
Iris offline
Skynet bootup ... successful
Terminator squadron: ready
Grievous reporting for duty.
Ultron operational status: ready
Sentinels operational status: ready
Remote connection to Unicron: communication hand shake successful, target acquired.
Anti-EMP field engaged.
Starting threat reassessment ... completed. probabilities of stopping intruder. 100%
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How do you get "late bloomer" builds through the Newton azuridae quest? I've hit a roadblock with several. Should I roam Lower Underrail looking for trouble and XP?
Edit: what's so special about AR builds? My SMG is stronger, though it has no sniper rifle sidearm. Of course barring DC and infinite respawning enemies.
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How do you get "late bloomer" builds through the Newton azuridae quest? I've hit a roadblock with several. Should I roam Lower Underrail looking for trouble and XP?
Edit: what's so special about AR builds? My SMG is stronger, though it has no sniper rifle sidearm. Of course barring DC and infinite respawning enemies.
Molotov's and abusing closing doors (bugs can't open it). Or just don't doing it, it's not mandatory
AR is simple and effective. If we are looking at damage/turn, then SMG can eventually pull significantly bigger numbers, but AR doesn't need high Dex to be as effective as it can, meaning you can start with 10 Con, for example, increasing your survivability.
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How do you get "late bloomer" builds through the Newton azuridae quest? I've hit a roadblock with several. Should I roam Lower Underrail looking for trouble and XP?
molotovs, beartraps, caltrops and throwing nets are going to be your bread and butter in early dominating for "late bloomers"
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I only play in Normal mode since I'm not that hardcore enough to try the hardest difficult level but makes me wonder...
How tough are the Lunatic levels, specifically one when you have to retrieve the Tchortist figurine and the other when you get your first assignment from Mediant Samuel.
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How tough are the Lunatic levels
Not at all if you have decent stealth ability and come prepared. Probably need a couple grenades and perhaps a few traps unless you just want to stealth past most of them, which you can do.
If you do fight, it can be a little tricky. There are a lot of Lunatics on Dominating, but as long as you've explored around enough to be properly levelled you shouldn't have too much trouble. Might need a couple reloads, especially if you don't know the area layout.
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I always take Interloper on my stealth builds though though I do not think you can find or buy Tabis before you are done with Depot A.
You can find them early; I've got some during the first quest before (not sure if I found them or bought them from jonas). I think you can find the blueprint randomly as well, but I'm not positive. You can get blaine as a merchant before setting foot in the wormhole or depot A in general.
You can also get shield emitters very early; I've got one before saving newton before, without exploring outside SGS. Ezra sells them sometimes, and I happened to have the 6k cash when he was selling one. It was the worst shield I've ever seen, but there it was. Katherine sells them too, and the guards in the maura quest have them. Also, on DOMINATING, the lunatic nuker south of GMS has one.
I play early game an awful lot, because I just really like it. After depot A, the game really slows down for me, and I have to reallllly want to finish the build I'm playing. I've only beat the game once and only played after depot A one other time (to lvl 17). So when I say you *can* find these things, it's still pretty darn rare.
edit: go figure, I just had Gort sell me an energy shield blueprint; I'm doing depot A but haven't found the circuit board yet
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So I'm currently playing a sledge juggernaut and just finished depot A. I fought the lurkers in the cave near GMS and found a fantastic anti-rifle tacvest (DT 25, which is 75 vs bullets) and with a good tungsten helmet and boots, I've got a DT of 32 or so. Apparently, the spines that burrowers shoot are considered bullets. I've been doing the burrower dungeons and the only threat in them is the burrower warriors, the spawn and regular burrowers can't even hurt me. The only difficult part of the game for me so far has been lunatics; the psychopaths and their damn bilocation bullshit are instadeath for me, so I have to win those fights without the psychopaths even getting to act. Otherwise I just make good use of bear traps, caltrops, corners/doors and grenades (against crowds, against individuals I make good use of nets/tasers/pneumatic strikes to keep them stunned or stationary).
So far, it's been easier than my heavy AR run, and roughly comparable to my sneaky crossbow traps run.
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Has anyone here being able to do the Epione Lab mission for the Free Drones by sneaking through?
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Has anyone here being able to do the Epione Lab mission for the Free Drones by sneaking through?
You mean without killing anybody?
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Has anyone here being able to do the Epione Lab mission for the Free Drones by sneaking through?
You mean without killing anybody?
No, just without alerting anyone. Stealth kills are part of stealth after all and an artform in itself. Sadly on autistic difficulty there seem to be more guards at the entrance so it seems like brute force is the only method here. I had no major problems with it on hard but this one annoys me as do other parts which are now almost impossible to stealth through.
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Has anyone here being able to do the Epione Lab mission for the Free Drones by sneaking through?
You mean without killing anybody?
No, just without alerting anyone.
Well, I don't think the guards on the first floor ever trigger an alarm, and I did the second level with no alarm. I've done it with a sledge juggernaut (using stealth gear in a few places) and a sneaky crossbow traps-user. Neither of those characters has loud attacks except for the juggernaut's grenades, which I probably didn't use.
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Not an option for my PSI Sniper. While Thought Control is excellent at killing silently sniper rifles are quite the opposite.
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Not an option for my PSI Sniper. While Thought Control is excellent at killing silently sniper rifles are quite the opposite.
But you are a sniper, so that means you have good stealth, right? Could you, with your best stealth gear + cave hopper steak + cloaking device, make your way past the guards on the first level without fighting? The guy with the riot armor next to the stairs probably does need to go, but he's through the double doors before the stairs, you should be able to close them and kill him quietly. On the 2nd level you can kill people 1 or 2 at a time, at least until you can get to all the pillars. Shoot or emp grenade the cameras and have a fall back hidey hole.
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HURRRR DURRRR
(https://preview.ibb.co/iW8jW8/20180729165401_1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/n7BhJo)
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This is just too fucking ridiculous
How. The. Fuck. Are. You. Supposed. To. Get. The. Fucking. Stupid. Service. Manuel. WITHOUT BEING DETECTED ?
WHY LOOSING THE EYE OF TCHORT DOESN'T FUCKING DISPOSE OF THOSE CRIITERS ANYMORE ?
WHAT THE FUCK ?
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How. The. Fuck. Are. You. Supposed. To. Get. The. Fucking. Stupid. Service. Manuel. WITHOUT BEING DETECTED ?
Same way you would on any other difficulty. Get Echoing Soliloquy, wait in the closest safe location until Eye of Tchort is gone, make sure all tchortlings reach their holes, get back to the safe location, unstealth and run as fast as possible, enter stealth if Eye of Tchort kicks in. You just have less time, but it's entirely doable.
WHY LOOSING THE EYE OF TCHORT DOESN'T FUCKING DISPOSE OF THOSE CRIITERS ANYMORE ?
It does, but there's so many on them on DOMINATING that you need to wait longer for all of them to reach the holes. I was getting significant lags when they all moved at the same time, so much that sometimes my PC was unable to move himself. Same was happening on the 2nd floor of Emporion when all lunatics were moving to investigate some noise.
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Forget it, i'm a moron, it didn't need the Service Manual after all, my South Gater have enouth mechanics to figure out how to install the parts himself. But I REALLY pity those who will have to get it. The 20 something Tchortling spawn is ridiculous.
But fuck, is DC even possible in DOMINATING without a significant amount of stealth ? I have, gear boosting wise, like 110 + but it's barely enouth.
And Echoing Sillothing doesn't do much . . .
Almost finish then, I will very soon give my enlighted and fair judgement on DOMINATING! . . .
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The. Fucking. Stupid. Service. Manuel.
Why r u so racist, bro?
Hola
(https://southparkstudios.mtvnimages.com/media/images/1106/1106_daylaborers.jpg)
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xD
Manuel is also manual in French :d
Anyway, Tchort bite the dust.
My fair and enlighted judgement : That was SHIT. I was expecting a new difficulty for us who knows "everything" about the game and it's gaemplay, but that garbage HP bloated ennemies spam ? Never. 100 % amateurish retarded pseudo-difficulty. 0 out of 10.
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It's definitely the best handling of different difficulties that I've ever seen. The increased size and variety of enemy groups especially.
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Out of curiosity, what would it take for you to consider it a good difficulty? If not buffed enemies, more nerfs on the player's side then? Completely new AI for every single enemy type?
More active skill for humanoids (why no psy user but the South Gater can have LoC for instance ?), better skills (done right I'd say) better gears for humanoid, new ennemy types for non humanoid (that was done pretty right yes), and the most important : NEW BETTER IMPROVED IA.
There is no fun or point in throwing 20 something HP-bloated ennemies if the can still fall for a dumb chessy shit tactic like minefield of bear traps, or my fav' Wall of Force + 10-iq ennemies hording + Thermo Desta + Alpha Strike.
If one the most used """""""""""""""""""tactic"""""""""""""""""""" in DOMINATING (it seems) is to set a minefield of bear traps and throwing molotov on stuck ennemies, then you should realised that your new "difficulty" is just wrongly done.
And if you can't code a better IA because it's too difficult, then just stick to what I said : more active skills/better gear/better skills/more ennemy types, but let the excessive spam and HP bloat where they belong : in the bottom of a septic tank.
It's definitely the best handling of different difficulties that I've ever seen.
Styg's cum's definitely the best that I've ever swallowed
Couldn't help myself, sorry.
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is DC even possible in DOMINATING without a significant amount of stealth
Yup. Had very little trouble with 0 stealth psi, and 0 stealth heavy sledge. Not sure why you couldn't handle it. Maybe you weren't built properly to handle fights when stealth broke, but didn't devote enough stats and skills and gear to stealth? The fights in DC are wearying, but rarely difficult or dangerous.
And of course SubterminalOptimization's dominating challenge runs showed that you could get through everything with only level 8 values of stealth. I guess you just didn't roll a good character for handling DC.
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Things would be more interesting if they instead wore a selection of kevlar, blast and aluminized coats without any visual difference between them.
Agree.
Not with all AIs though. Dumb animals, mutants and such should stay stupid while human soldiers, robots and other intelligent enemies should behave more intelligently. Different AIs should feel different - crawlers are exemplary.
Agree.
- Adding a simple anti-aoe rule to human soldier AI to prevent them from congregating in blocked chokepoints would do a lot to improve this.
Agree.
- I'm not sure what to think about lame "tactics" like spamming ridiculous numbers of bear traps. They're not fun. They're a crutch, some players will resort to that kind of stuff when they can't manage otherwise. But the thing is, such lame tactics certainly aren't necessary, not even on DOMINATING. Maybe Styg should do everything in his power to prevent taking things like that to extreme (and unfun) levels, but I don't like the idea of limiting player freedom with unnecessary nerfs. If there's something that's wrong, it's whatever is guiding players to such dumb tricks.
Agree, traps feels like a crutch, and grenades too, at least molotovs. I'm trying not to use them at all.
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Couldn't help myself, sorry.
Styg made the best and smartest game I've ever played, whereas you go to forums to cry with fake complaints for attention.
(1 attention token received)
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- I'm not sure what to think about lame "tactics" like spamming ridiculous numbers of bear traps. They're not fun. They're a crutch, some players will resort to that kind of stuff when they can't manage otherwise. But the thing is, such lame tactics certainly aren't necessary, not even on DOMINATING. Maybe Styg should do everything in his power to prevent taking things like that to extreme (and unfun) levels, but I don't like the idea of limiting player freedom with unnecessary nerfs. If there's something that's wrong, it's whatever is guiding players to such dumb tricks.
I like the possibility to use those "lame" tactics and i don't really see the need for balance patch here.
For example in dominating i usually use the bear traps field tactic + molotovs or grenades in Depot A (against mutants) and against the beast. (i do use bear traps on most hard fights, but not by making a preemptive"field" of them).
And i actually like it because it feels like blowing up the whole place to hell is the only solution for me to survive those places full of stupid critters.
I'm pretty sure almost all players including myself reserve that strategy for some rare encounters like those 2, simply because beartraps are too cumbersome and boring to place, so you can't use that strategy every fight or it'll be a real chore (and if some players want to do it ok, why not...).
TLDR : Bear traps fiels is boring if you do it every fight, but i consider it a valid, fun and roleplay strategy to employ occasionnaly in areas full of critters.
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Dominating gameplay stuff
- I don't think less info on the resistances of enemies is better at all, they should be smarter not more obscure
- Better AI around chokepoints for humanoids is a great idea
- Bear trap situation could be improved by human enemies having better trap detection skills and refusing to walk into traps unless they are being fired upon and can't move into cover (could go into Hard too)
I knew Dominating would probably crush stealth/gimmick players (stronger more numerous mobs that both bump into you more easily and kill you faster after) so I played a high CON gunner with 0 subterfuge skills except Traps, and funneled everything into actually combat-useful things like Intimidation for Yell and Throwing so I could routinely throw flashbangs on the exact hex to sleep the enemy but not myself etc, this made the run pretty fun after the difficult beginning.
What I felt was if you get staying power from CON and CON feats then you're set, otherwise not so much as "tricks" don't work as well on this difficulty.
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I think this sort of thing is inherently hard to avoid in a game like this
I think it's the matter of motivation or goal of player. If it's "finish the gaem" then yes.
If it's "interesting and variable tactical situations" then no - I know I can easilly kill half of the game with just molotovs but that's bullshit. So I used traps and caltrops only for Beast fight an masse and ocassionally dropped crawler poson caltrops in few places only, and carry only a single bear trap with me.
I even regret now that I took that feat that allow deploying traps in combat for crossbowman - it would be much more fun without that.
Half of the fun is finding out all that stuff yourself.
Absolutely agree, and that dosn't require math or something like that like in other games.
Just seeing NPC levels in-game would be nice.
Don't do that, more numbers for the sake of numbers. It's not fun.
If you know someone lvl it doesn't give you anything except more feeling that world is artificial.
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Couldn't help myself, sorry.
Styg made the best and smartest game I've ever played, whereas you go to forums to cry with fake complaints for attention.
(1 attention token received)
fake complaints for attention.
Yes, that's an hypothesis.
I have another one you might want to consider : I love this game too, I consider it to be one of the greatest CRPG I have ever play, on part with masterpieces like VTM : Bloodlines, Fallout 2, Arcanum, Shadowrun Returns : Dragonfall, and I take advantage of the official forum to raise valid complains in hope to make it even better ?
epeli : I agree with pretty much everything you said except methink the spam/HP Bloat was most of the time out of control (those mega psi beetle on silent island . . . :puke:)
For those of you give a damn : my DOMINATING! South Gater : http://underrail.info.tm/build/?GQMDCgMDEAgALQAAAAAsUHIAAD9fJS9fwofCh8KHNwAAJDkrPxQqZEdmIQUpV2dIbA
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One possible problem I foresee with many defensive AI behaviors taking precedence over attacking enemies is that some fights could become too drawn out, with neither side getting much done.
Without some sort of interrupt, heavily defensive tactics would seem to pretty much give the player an unbeatable advantage when LOS can be abused, and would enormously benefit characters with heavy-hitting cooldown skills, wouldn't it?
On the other hand, if you could teach Lunatics to take Force User, and huddle behind four-turn Force Fields, alternating with two other kineticists in their group for a permanent ranged blockade.... whoof. I take it back, they're enough hassle as it is. :P
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Epeli, by less info I meant your comment about NPC armors and vests, I think there should be more correlation between what they seem to be wearing and their resists, not less.
About NPCs becoming too defensive to their detriment, I think that can be fixed with making sure the AI will attack if they are out of defensive options (take cover, retreat) and are getting whittled down.
NPCs being able to use forcefield also sounds like a very interesting idea, the cooldown would probably keep it from being too annoying anyway.
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Epeli, by less info I meant your comment about NPC armors and vests, I think there should be more correlation between what they seem to be wearing and their resists, not less.
Ah, of course. Stupid me. Personally I would prefer more variation and unpredictability, but that's just from playing too much for my own good.
My guess is Styg wants to keep it so that players can identify what NPCs are wearing as well as our characters could.
So the basic armor type is immediately obvious. If there's a coat, you know what it is. (And there's only 2 different coat sprites, so all NPCs use one of 2 coats...) But you can't tell what someone has inside their plate carrier vest. (Except from how much it burdens them, but that's hard when the only indicator is their movement points.) Or how a suit is padded. Different leathers/metals are too similar to identify without a closer examination.
Oh I see, so you meant there should be more variation that is not restrained by the available sprites. I can see your point now sure.
Gameplay-wise I generally enjoyed knowing who the fire immune guys were (gasmasked grenadiers) as it made me know in advance not to bother trying to set them on fire with bolts or grenades.
It's true that you can't see the plate vests and so on, it seems that mostly Styg relied on 'types' to help the player know what he's facing, like the pistol-armed gasmasked guy who typically uses grenades and has an anti-thermic overcoat... or the sniper overcoat guy who typically uses an anti-rifle overcoat with high threshold, I generally like this 'types' design and haven't gotten tired of it yet, but I'm only about 5 runs into the game.
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So, noob question - does the Faceless in elevator fight are endless?
In case you killed Eidein or in every situation.
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I DID IT !
I manage to save both Braindead Saban and Brainless Dan (bonus : also the witless plasma sentry) with no mines, no bear traps, no grenades !
Only my psi abilities, 10 psi-boosters, and my awsome, genius level intelligence :fap:
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So...
I've finished the game for the first time ever... on DOMINATING.
I reached Deep Caverns on my first char, but was so enthusiastic about rolling a new one on the highest difficulty that I didn't finish it the first time.
I think this generally is a fair game, albeit one that needs encyclopedic knowledge and discipline to be played effectively on it's highest dif. It's fairly open ended, you can choose encounters more or less appropiate to what you can handle, and for the most part you can escape from zones if things go awry. There could even be Ironman mode for the real vets. Me--I'm yet to beat the game on Oddity. Maybe never.
Regardless, I can say that DC beat my ass as in the end because I needed to check things online. I figured how to move around Hollow Earth without getting swarmed--mind you, the first time I walked in I was like, 'Let's see what they are made of.' When both my weapons began breaking down I knew they'd just spawn forever :<. But I had to look up what to do on obtaining the Biocide. In my defence--it's not exactly intuitive that the option appears visible only after powering everything else down. Couldn't even begin to comprehend how to do the mutagen thingy, so I left to explore more and happened, purely by chance, on the last boss. He/it was worth 3 bursts of AR bullets :D after happily consuming the only portion of supersoldier drug/regen mixture I ever needed to consume in the whole game... sad.
Replayed the last battle a few more times, found out a few more tentacle shenanigans... and that's about it. Can't say the ending was very inspiring. But the game is good, almost entirely because of it's purist design on builds and gameplay.
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Couldn't even begin to comprehend how to do the mutagen thingy, so I left to explore more and happened, purely by chance, on the last boss.
Yeah, the mutagen thingie is a steep hill to climb. Thankfully for we mere mortals, epeli included a mutagen calculator in his web site that you probably already know from the character calculator. But if you don't go to the /build subdirectory, you can find a couple handy tools at http://underrail.info.tm/
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Molotovs are nearly a necessity now. Especially for rathounds, but in a lot of other scenarios too.
I haven't used a single molotov so far, I'm inside Depot A right now. Basic frag grenades are still enough to insta-kill normal rathounds regardless of how numerous they are and take a good chunk of alpha's HP.
Playing a sniper/pistol build, no quick tinkering, no trap abuse (I do use them occasionally, but no more than I would on Hard), no cheat engine, etc. The only thing I kind of "abuse" are doors. For example, I saved Newton by letting a single psi beetle wander inside a room, close the door, kill him, repeat until all are dead. In most cases it's easy enough to sneak past groups I'm not able to tackle yet, at least so far.
Oddity drops seem perfectly fine. I would say they are even better considering how many enemies there are, I never maxed beetle brains so early.
I know it's been a while, but can you post this build? I'm interested in playing a sniper/pistol in Dominating.
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Molotovs are nearly a necessity now. Especially for rathounds, but in a lot of other scenarios too.
I haven't used a single molotov so far, I'm inside Depot A right now. Basic frag grenades are still enough to insta-kill normal rathounds regardless of how numerous they are and take a good chunk of alpha's HP.
Playing a sniper/pistol build, no quick tinkering, no trap abuse (I do use them occasionally, but no more than I would on Hard), no cheat engine, etc. The only thing I kind of "abuse" are doors. For example, I saved Newton by letting a single psi beetle wander inside a room, close the door, kill him, repeat until all are dead. In most cases it's easy enough to sneak past groups I'm not able to tackle yet, at least so far.
Oddity drops seem perfectly fine. I would say they are even better considering how many enemies there are, I never maxed beetle brains so early.
I know it's been a while, but can you post this build? I'm interested in playing a sniper/pistol in Dominating.
Basically a regular sniper build with Gunslinger feat (and probably Paranoia). Wield pistol in your active weapon slot to gain initiative boost.
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I know it's been a while, but can you post this build? I'm interested in playing a sniper/pistol in Dominating.
(https://i.imgur.com/faNUey1.png)
Gear:
Seeker night vision goggles (smart A-A spearhead with all the crit damage feats is enough to reliably 1-shot almost everything, at that point crit chance becomes more valueable than another smart bonus)
Efficient double low freq shield
Infused pig leather armor with high density foam and black cloth
Utility belt
Infused pig leather tabis
Rapid smart Anatomically-Aware spearhead
Rapid neo luger with a laser sight
Taser and all kinds of grenades
It's kind of an iroman-y build (only reloading on death, goal is to die as few times as possible) I came up with after the infused siphoner tabis nerf, wasn't really meant for dominating in particular but worked really well regardless. I think I died once or twice, can't remember exactly. The overall idea is to have high initiative in case the stealth approach fails or is impossible, high mech DT/DR against melee, shield against guns that also helps against low speed projectiles, high HP for anything else. Also high mobility with a way to break free from immobilization.
Always walk around with the pistol in the hand for bonus initiative, switch to the rifle when needed. Pistol is mostly used to apply Kneecap Shot, reliably hit enemies with high evasion (that's why it's a Neo-Luger and laser sight, also makes it more likely for the Kneecap Shot to hit), delete squishy enemies with low DT/DR up close with Rapid Fire and HP rounds, killing or finishing off other enemies with W2C, etc. Biology is to make focus stims for that sweet 15% crit chance, chemistry is for making W2C rounds.
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Question for you bloodthirsty maniacs - do you try to finish all pieces of content on Dominating? Minus some extremes, like Oculites questline if you're playing a char with no stealth. Or do you strictly stick to the critical path?
Also, what would be a good option for a brute force/ironman like approach? I'm thinking full PSI char with 10 con, but if there are other options hit me with them. Ideally as little reloading as possible.
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Thick Skull is the first piece of the puzzle to make your DOMINATING run as easy as possible, imho.
I don't know how pure psi fares, but I hear it's quite the cheese. So I think you might be combining the two best things for the run x).
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Question for you bloodthirsty maniacs - do you try to finish all pieces of content on Dominating? Minus some extremes, like Oculites questline if you're playing a char with no stealth. Or do you strictly stick to the critical path?
Also, what would be a good option for a brute force/ironman like approach? I'm thinking full PSI char with 10 con, but if there are other options hit me with them. Ideally as little reloading as possible.
Always all content. Gotta get that exp ;)
Psi is a very good choice, *if* you'll pick up Locus of Control. Stealth AR is also not a bad choice because ARs are ridiculously powerful, but you'll want Thick Skull for the stun prevention, unless you're really quite sure that you'll be carrying around a ton of Bullhead and using it all the time. . But for minimum possible reloads, you're going to want to be in stealth all the time so you usually have the opportunity to set up positioning first. You won't need Grenadier or Quick Tinkering for success, but if you've got free feat slots in your build (edit:and, obviously, enough Dex) those are the first two you'd want to pick up, in whichever order suits you.
Basically, psi is possibly the single strongest thing in the game, but it's very close with stealth. Put 'em together and you're a wrecking ball. But if you don't want to be a cave wizard, an assault rifle will clear the way all the way to Tchort just fine, and when you pop adrenaline you can kill his eye in one turn of bursts.
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Question for you bloodthirsty maniacs - do you try to finish all pieces of content on Dominating? Minus some extremes, like Oculites questline if you're playing a char with no stealth. Or do you strictly stick to the critical path?
Also, what would be a good option for a brute force/ironman like approach? I'm thinking full PSI char with 10 con, but if there are other options hit me with them. Ideally as little reloading as possible.
Always all content. Gotta get that exp ;)
Psi is a very good choice, *if* you'll pick up Locus of Control. Stealth AR is also not a bad choice because ARs are ridiculously powerful, but you'll want Thick Skull for the stun prevention, unless you're really quite sure that you'll be carrying around a ton of Bullhead and using it all the time. . But for minimum possible reloads, you're going to want to be in stealth all the time so you usually have the opportunity to set up positioning first. You won't need Grenadier or Quick Tinkering for success, but if you've got free feat slots in your build (edit:and, obviously, enough Dex) those are the first two you'd want to pick up, in whichever order suits you.
Basically, psi is possibly the single strongest thing in the game, but it's very close with stealth. Put 'em together and you're a wrecking ball. But if you don't want to be a cave wizard, an assault rifle will clear the way all the way to Tchort just fine, and when you pop adrenaline you can kill his eye in one turn of bursts.
You had me at cave wizard. Couple questions though. Does 10 con (for thick skull) even make sense if I'm eventually getting LoC? I suppose it would make the journey to that point easier since LoC is level 14 or 16 I believe. Also, should I pick stealth if I'm going PSI? Tranquility vs Psychosis?
In any case, I'm strongly leaning towards PSI, even though the stealth AR sounds very appealing, but the thought of carrying insane amounts of ammo with me doesn't. I've played SMGs and Crossbow on Hard before and felt that it was already stretching the limits of what I'm willing to put up with on the inventory micromanagement front. If you have a psi build for dominating I'd love to see it.
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Does 10 con (for thick skull) even make sense if I'm eventually getting LoC?
It can actually do more harm than good. With LoC, you can simply break free from the effect and continue as if nothing happened. With Thick Skull, you will always get dazed and lose 15 AP.
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That's not always true, though...
Not having stun immunity still makes enemies use abilities to their disadvantage. One example I can give is a scenario against Lunatics where if you're immune to stun, you will get Bilocations cast on you immediately instead of Mental Breakdowns. The Mental Breakdown is preferable because it will waste their empower psi skill and there is always another mob after the one that used the Breakdown to put you out of the status. Even though a Psi build has the means to deal with the Bilocation clones, I don't think somebody would want to waste their AP on that, instead of just keep killing Loons.
Yes... there is an immunity for 3 turns, but after that you can still get poisoned and stunned.
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You had me at cave wizard. Couple questions though. Does 10 con (for thick skull) even make sense if I'm eventually getting LoC? I suppose it would make the journey to that point easier since LoC is level 14 or 16 I believe. Also, should I pick stealth if I'm going PSI? Tranquility vs Psychosis?
If you have a psi build for dominating I'd love to see it.
I don't usually go with high CON for psi builds, just because psi is starved badly for stat points. To make a psi build work on Dominating, you're going to need to have 15 or 16 Will at the top. So then you basically need to figure out if you want to have a larger health pool, or more crafting ability. I take 10 Will, 10 Int (8 Int in the expansion, given what we've seen in the preview videos about there being agility checks in the game world; 5 base Agi is good enough but 3 mostly isn't) because I like crafting. If you don't like crafting, you'd want to consider taking at least enough Con to get Fast Metabolism, which is really great for psi.
14 levels come really quick if you're on Classic XP, and still not too slowly on Oddity. Classic xp, you can be level 13 or 14 when you finish Depot A if you've really gone hunting for the side stuff (you can handle the Burrowers but the Lunatics are sometimes a stretch depending on your support skills). And the side quests for the battery and Hathor are some more easy xp. So don't sweat making it to LoC.
Stealth complements psi wonderfully. Your health pool is lower so you're not really able to tank too many hits, and stealth gives you the ability to position and get the drop on your enemies. But you don't need much stealth, even with the higher detection enemies have on Dominating. 50-70 points with 3 Agi is enough if you can craft your own stealth gear.
Psychosis is objectively stronger at all lower difficulties. Tranquility catches up on Dominating. The reason is that the HP increase on Dominating is such that you're better off not trying to do raw, direct damage to kill an enemy, but rather some form of shenanigans-style damage (like a double TK Punch or Implosion for those pesky Ancient Rathounds, or burning living enemies to death so they run around in panic, or stunning and slowing enemies so you can kite them a bit) and Tranquility lets you use more abilities per turn. I recommend Tranquility for Dominating but Psychosis would be just fine. Would you rather see big numbers (Psychosis) or do more things in a turn(Tranquility)? Up to you.
Sure. Here's the first psi build I beat Dominating with: http://underrail.info.tm/build/?GQMIAwMDEAoPHgAAAAAAUUYARVVfJTlVS8KHwocvAEAoFys_FCoWLj0hZGdmRlc Idea was to have high initiative because no stealth; high traps because low health; Grenadier because it's an amazing support ability for almost every build; just enough Thought Control for LoC and max out the other two as the bread-and-butter damage dealers. Craft a headband with +crit and psi mufflers, craft a vest with psi beetle carapace, enough bio to make Focus Stims and Trance which help in the bigger fights. Premeditation is a must for any psi build. Force User is great if you think you might like to be able to back up to a wall and hang out, invulnerable, for four turns while your abilities cool down - or lock an enemy in place for four turns. Either way. It's a strong psi build and cruises through the game easily even on Dominating. However, you might consider taking two points out of Dex, putting them into Per, taking those 15 points out of Guns and putting them wherever, and putting Snooping in place of Gunslinger. It's nice to get those extra secrets discovered, and the initiative boost from Paranoia is enough because you'll end up manually starting most fights anyway. If you want stealth, you'll have to decide what to pull points from. Persuasion is min/maxed so that you can pass the hardest check in the base game, but only while wearing the Noble Robe; Hacking makes the highest check; Lockpicking is good enough for all but two boxes (and they don't have special loot, but if you really want is, with Omnitool and +2Dex junkyard surprise you can get those two, also); Throwing is obviously bare minimum for Grenadier. That's the only downside of psi - you're hard pressed for stat and skill points more than many other builds. You want something, you're paying for it by losing something else quite good. (edit: Oh, also, Ballistics ended up being underwhelming so I don't strongly suggest it)
Psi is strong enough that stealth is absolutely optional.
One example I can give is a scenario against Lunatics where if you're immune to stun, you will get Bilocations cast on you immediately instead of Mental Breakdowns. The Mental Breakdown is preferable because it will waste their empower psi skill and there is always another mob after the one that used the Breakdown to put you out of the status. Even though a Psi build has the means to deal with the Bilocation clones, I don't think somebody would want to waste their AP on that, instead of just keep killing Loons.
Yes... there is an immunity for 3 turns, but after that you can still get poisoned and stunned.
Psi is actually extra strong against Lunatics and psi vs Lunatics is one of the places the power of psi is most apparent. If you've got LoC and are fighting a group of Lunatics, you just pull them with a grenade, turtle up behind your Force Field, and when they're all nicely gathered up, you LoC+(something sneaky). You can LoC+Enrage and have them kill each other. LoC+Bilocation if you have a way to trap them in place is decent. LoC+Psicognitive Interruption is just borderline unfair. LoC+Mental breakdown puts them all in incap so you can pick them off one at a time with TK Proxy doubling up your TK Punch or Implosion; find the middle of the group, put a ThermoD on it, and knock it out and it'll AoE two to three times its own health in damage, instakilling everyone around it.
For the most part, you don't hold LoC for the stun resist. You pop it to break stuns (if necessary) and then AoE some monster Thought Control ability.
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Thanks, I'll certainly give this a shot.
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But if you don't want to be a cave wizard, an assault rifle will clear the way all the way to Tchort just fine, and when you pop adrenaline you can kill his eye in one turn of bursts.
Huh, is that really possible? I thought Tchort has way more health on Dominating than on the lower difficulties.
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One example I can give is a scenario against Lunatics where if you're immune to stun, you will get Bilocations cast on you immediately instead of Mental Breakdowns. The Mental Breakdown is preferable because it will waste their empower psi skill and there is always another mob after the one that used the Breakdown to put you out of the status. Even though a Psi build has the means to deal with the Bilocation clones, I don't think somebody would want to waste their AP on that, instead of just keep killing Loons.
Yes... there is an immunity for 3 turns, but after that you can still get poisoned and stunned.
Psi is actually extra strong against Lunatics and psi vs Lunatics is one of the places the power of psi is most apparent. If you've got LoC and are fighting a group of Lunatics, you just pull them with a grenade, turtle up behind your Force Field, and when they're all nicely gathered up, you LoC+(something sneaky). You can LoC+Enrage and have them kill each other. LoC+Bilocation if you have a way to trap them in place is decent. LoC+Psicognitive Interruption is just borderline unfair. LoC+Mental breakdown puts them all in incap so you can pick them off one at a time with TK Proxy doubling up your TK Punch or Implosion; find the middle of the group, put a ThermoD on it, and knock it out and it'll AoE two to three times its own health in damage, instakilling everyone around it.
For the most part, you don't hold LoC for the stun resist. You pop it to break stuns (if necessary) and then AoE some monster Thought Control ability.
Maybe I'll try exactly that the next time I play :D...
Naah, I had me this idea about an Unoptimized build.
Thanks for the tips anyways.
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But if you don't want to be a cave wizard, an assault rifle will clear the way all the way to Tchort just fine, and when you pop adrenaline you can kill his eye in one turn of bursts.
Huh, is that really possible? I thought Tchort has way more health on Dominating than on the lower difficulties.
There's a guy who beat dominating at level four using AR bursts.
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Doing everything I could.
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There's a guy who beat dominating at level four using AR bursts.
Well, did he kill Tchort in one turn?
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There's a guy who beat dominating at level four using AR bursts.
This sounds amazing. I've gunned down 15+ enemies in a single turn by emptying a smart muzzled 762 Hornet (adren, muzzle, full auto, commando, obv) but I wasn't aware it's single target damage could rival Sniper builds. Is there a link to this feat?
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https://i.imgur.com/3m97PdT.png
Went there at level 8. After the initial shock wore off it actually went quite smooth, only needed two reloads to figure out the pulls. Had 1+2, I'm not sure if there's a way to separate the two at the container. As usual, molotovs+pathfinding saved the day by buying me some breathing room when one of them went over to the other side of the island :D
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But if you don't want to be a cave wizard, an assault rifle will clear the way all the way to Tchort just fine, and when you pop adrenaline you can kill his eye in one turn of bursts.
Huh, is that really possible? I thought Tchort has way more health on Dominating than on the lower difficulties.
There's a guy who beat dominating at level four using AR bursts.
Does he have any videos/documentation? That sounds really cool
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But if you don't want to be a cave wizard, an assault rifle will clear the way all the way to Tchort just fine, and when you pop adrenaline you can kill his eye in one turn of bursts.
Huh, is that really possible? I thought Tchort has way more health on Dominating than on the lower difficulties.
There's a guy who beat dominating at level four using AR bursts.
Does he have any videos/documentation? That sounds really cool
http://underrail.com/forums/index.php?topic=3388.0
Cool, thanks!
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Question for you bloodthirsty maniacs - do you try to finish all pieces of content on Dominating? Minus some extremes, like Oculites questline if you're playing a char with no stealth. Or do you strictly stick to the critical path?
Also, what would be a good option for a brute force/ironman like approach? I'm thinking full PSI char with 10 con, but if there are other options hit me with them. Ideally as little reloading as possible.
Always all content. Gotta get that exp ;)
Psi is a very good choice, *if* you'll pick up Locus of Control. Stealth AR is also not a bad choice because ARs are ridiculously powerful, but you'll want Thick Skull for the stun prevention, unless you're really quite sure that you'll be carrying around a ton of Bullhead and using it all the time. . But for minimum possible reloads, you're going to want to be in stealth all the time so you usually have the opportunity to set up positioning first. You won't need Grenadier or Quick Tinkering for success, but if you've got free feat slots in your build (edit:and, obviously, enough Dex) those are the first two you'd want to pick up, in whichever order suits you.
Basically, psi is possibly the single strongest thing in the game, but it's very close with stealth. Put 'em together and you're a wrecking ball. But if you don't want to be a cave wizard, an assault rifle will clear the way all the way to Tchort just fine, and when you pop adrenaline you can kill his eye in one turn of bursts.
Figured I'd give you an update, since you were kind enough to hook me up with builds - I'm using a modified version of your PSI template http://underrail.info.tm/build/?GQMDBQYDEAoAAAAAAAAoV3MAAFVVCy5VwofCh8KHMgA_KyhQPxQ9Vy4qZ2RmIScc . Hit 25 yesterday, still have entire Upper Underrail to explore, but I did pretty much everything in Lower/Caves already, including Balor, Arena (at lvl 16), Foundry quests, even got to the last step of Oculite questline AND successfully navigated the Gorsky's warehouse quest, despite very low stealth. That actually ended up being a really nice surprise. Couple observations from my run so far:
1) Dominating is so much fun that I don't think I'll be able to go back to Hard.
2) Mercantile is god-tier skill. Holy shit.
3) I've changed my mind about the usefulness of evasion/dodge. Maybe I'd actually need them on other types of characters, but PSI can get by with 0 investment just fine.
4) I expected more enemies to be honest. Most encounters don't seem that different from hard, an enemy or two on top of the standard formation, from what I can tell? Please tell me if I'm wrong.
If you have a template for a stealth AR build I'd LOVE to see it as well, because I'm really tempted to start a parallel run. Crafting with Mercantile is so much fun that I literally don't mind playing the game again lol.
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1) Dominating is so much fun that I don't think I'll be able to go back to Hard.
2) Mercantile is god-tier skill. Holy shit.
If you have a template for a stealth AR build I'd LOVE to see it as well, because I'm really tempted to start a parallel run. Crafting with Mercantile is so much fun that I literally don't mind playing the game again lol.
1) I agree. I would only play below Dominating if I needed to test something out. It's too fun a difficulty.
2) You think that's amazing, pair it with Salesman. You'll be hard-pressed to ever play a build without it once you try one or two merchant runs with 100+ Mercantile and Salesman on top.
How are you liking Hypothermia? I never actually used it because I didn't imagine up very many scenarios where it was helpful. Are you finding it helpful?
As I recall, I restarted twice on my AR, but ended up with something like this: http://underrail.info.tm/build/?GQcHBQcKAwfChx4AAB5kRkEyADxkZCc0WgAAAAAAVCRTUBYwRU4VSSY7SktV
That's the bare minimum on every crafting skill to make what you need, with house crafting bonus: quad-plated super steel armor; top-quality energy shield & cloaking device; incendiary rounds; bullhead; and top-quality carrier vest in your armor, plus good-quality infused cave hopper leather armor with soft padding and black cloth for your stealth set. The hacking and lockpicking are obviously optional but I'd have a fit if I had to pass up all that potential loot. If you don't mind, you can claw back a good number of points there.
The build has some real drawbacks, because it tries to do a bunch of things. You *must* always keep the Rathound Barbecue buff up, if you're going to use heavy armor (and if not, take out 1 Con and Juggernaut), because you don't have the Str. That means even one Crippling Strike and you're losing action points. Your dodge is crap but with QT you can usually just drop a bear trap and keep melee two tiles away so you can burst them to death safely - except sometimes you can't. Didn't take Sprint and missed the lack of it sometimes, but as a ranged character mobility is only highly useful, instead of essential. Passed on aimed shot because I found I never really used it after Depot A, and couldn't afford a "wasted" feat.
Still, it's a build that can (and did) win with some planning before the big, setpiece fights.
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I only took Hypothermia because I didn't have any better ideas at the time. It was my second to last perk pick (before Pack Rathound, which I took for carrying quest items in DC). It's somewhat useful because I use Cryokinesis a lot, but I was also considering a number of other perks - Nimble (for more stealth, but I realized I don't need it), Conditioning (very small bonus), Sure Step (never saw the need for it), Clothier (would gain some extra stealth from it, hardly worth it), Power Management (this would be useful since I rely on Cloaking Device sometimes, but both my CD and shield have ~110 capacity so it's not exactly mandatory), Cerebral Trauma - this one seems like the best replacement candidate because I use Neural Overload a lot as well, but in the end I picked Hypothermia for tanky targets like Burrower Warriors etc.
I didn't take Salesman on purpose because my understanding was that it doubles the number of items that merchants buy at 100 skill - so instead of 2 firearms they'd buy 4, but it didn't mention if their funds go up as well and I often can't sell more than 2 or 3 items to a single merchant anyway. Two weapons worth ~7k and the merchant is 400 charons down already. Did I misunderstand how the feat works?
Thanks for the AR build, I'll look it over later when I have more time and see if something can be changed.
The hacking and lockpicking are obviously optional but I'd have a fit if I had to pass up all that potential loot.
No kidding lol, I'm the same.
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I didn't take Salesman on purpose because my understanding was that it doubles the number of items that merchants buy at 100 skill - so instead of 2 firearms they'd buy 4, but it didn't mention if their funds go up as well and I often can't sell more than 2 or 3 items to a single merchant anyway. Two weapons worth ~7k and the merchant is 400 charons down already. Did I misunderstand how the feat works?
Well, Salesman's greatest use is that it makes all those *other* merchants viable sources of charons. You're right that weapons merchants are easy to pull money off of, but when you're in Foundry and the guy next to Kevin is willing to buy 12 of those Advanced repair kits? Suddenly you can get all his money *too* and maybe one or two nice components as well. Fixer, in Junkyard, when he's buying 5 chem pistols at a time? You can buy out his entire stock. Heck, you can show up with no chem pistols, buy up his stock, craft on the spot, sell them back to him, and still walk away with all his drugs and money. Salesman isn't really about making the weapons merchants better sources of income, it's about making everyone else just as good as the weapons merchants.
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That makes sense. Ultimately I don't think I need it though, I've never had money issues in UnderRail, even when I bought all the workbenches and some house upgrades. I'd prefer if Salesman allowed you to invest in stores to increase their liquidity. There was another RPG that I played where this was possible, but I can't for the life of me remember what it was. Skyrim maybe?
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Skyrim and Oblivion yeah.
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Welp I finally managed to finish my Dominating playthrough with a subpar psi-unarmed build, there are very unsavory areas I wish not wanna return ever, a shame the final boss turned out to be a cakewalk but the optional one was plainly impossible so I decided to eat the pride and turn in the McGuffin, maybe I will take another ride in Expedition... maybe.
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I know it's been a while, but can you post this build? I'm interested in playing a sniper/pistol in Dominating.
(https://i.imgur.com/faNUey1.png)
Gear:
Seeker night vision goggles (smart A-A spearhead with all the crit damage feats is enough to reliably 1-shot almost everything, at that point crit chance becomes more valueable than another smart bonus)
Efficient double low freq shield
Infused pig leather armor with high density foam and black cloth
Utility belt
Infused pig leather tabis
Rapid smart Anatomically-Aware spearhead
Rapid neo luger with a laser sight
Taser and all kinds of grenades
It's kind of an iroman-y build (only reloading on death, goal is to die as few times as possible) I came up with after the infused siphoner tabis nerf, wasn't really meant for dominating in particular but worked really well regardless. I think I died once or twice, can't remember exactly. The overall idea is to have high initiative in case the stealth approach fails or is impossible, high mech DT/DR against melee, shield against guns that also helps against low speed projectiles, high HP for anything else. Also high mobility with a way to break free from immobilization.
Always walk around with the pistol in the hand for bonus initiative, switch to the rifle when needed. Pistol is mostly used to apply Kneecap Shot, reliably hit enemies with high evasion (that's why it's a Neo-Luger and laser sight, also makes it more likely for the Kneecap Shot to hit), delete squishy enemies with low DT/DR up close with Rapid Fire and HP rounds, killing or finishing off other enemies with W2C, etc. Biology is to make focus stims for that sweet 15% crit chance, chemistry is for making W2C rounds.
Thanks, again. I know it has been a while yet again, but I am curious about your build. It is a sniper build, yet persuasion is very high. What are you using it for? To get optimal quest outcomes [such as SGS allying with Eels]?
I just didn't think that there would be a lot of synergy with that skill on a sniper build. You don't have a lot of points to spare on Dominating.
Given the improvements to the barter system, I would have thought that if you were to invest in a social skill, it would be barter. Maybe even take some barter feats - getting good gear is important.
Also, how do people feel about these modifications to the build in Dominating:
Constitution from 5 - 4
Intelligence from 5 - 6
Taking a point from CON into INT because Int 6 is more useful for crafting + it can go up to 8 in the expansion, which opens up more options.
Also, I could go with barter instead of persuasion.
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All good in dominating, except of many over hp buffs, which make fightings prolonged and boring.
For example, Pulveriser received 2k hp, but still not learn how to throw flashbangs, not good.
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What do you mean? Last time I fought him, he do threw flashbangs, which was a death sentence.
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Recently killed him with a dagger and traps at low lvl, for the energy shield. There were a lot of opportunities to throw a flashbang, but he didn't.
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He doesn't do it immediately as it's death sentence to player, on;y after his adrenaline expired I guess.