Underrail Forum
Underrail => Development Log => Topic started by: Styg on July 21, 2020, 10:01:40 am
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(https://underrail.com/images/DevLog/Waterways_Cover.png)
Hi guys,
We're rolling out a new content update. It's going to land on experimental branch first in order to thoroughly test it out.
To play experimental branch on Steam, you right click the game in your library and go to "Betas" tab. To do so on GOG Galaxy, you go to Manage Installation -> Configure. Make sure you don't override all your live version saves just in case something goes horribly wrong.
The first major theme of this update is the change to psi mechanics. The full changes are listed below. They are not primarily meant to kick the full psi builds down a notch (though they will do that), but to address the following issues with psi that I find the most problematic and detrimental to the game as a whole, not just in terms of difficulty:
- Psi gives you too many utilities. Due to how the psi functions now (prior to this update) it's almost impossible to add new stuff to psi without extending the already bloated spectrum of combat utilities of any given psi generalist (which most psi builds are) even further, since, unlike with combat utilities, there are no limits to what a psi invoker can access during combat.
- Psi is cheap to spec into. Even though every psi school is a separate skill, they are all based on a single base ability, which is the only one required to be maxed out in order for your character to be powerful. If you invest heavily enough into it, the psi abilities themselves will make up for many deficiencies in other areas. No other robust build works like this, they usually require at least moderately strong investment into a secondary base ability.
- Psi does not require any expendable resource. Pretty much every other build does so I introduced a resource for psi as well. Now it has a dual (or hybrid if you will) resource management aspect. Also I used this opportunity to put a sort of a limit to how much psionic output you can dish out in a single fight, so we'll see how this works out.
- This is the least important point, but it's still worth addressing. Some abilities are a bit too cheesey and easy to exploit so I changed them up a bit. This does not make them perfectly balanced or un-cheeseable and I know there is other stuff out there that's cheese as well. These are just the ones that bothered me the most and were long overdue to change.
Anyway, the detailed changes are in the list below. What I hope to do in the future with psi now that I've dealt with psi generalist question is to facilitate more hybrid builds, which I think the new system will support well.
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The other major theme of the update is a lot of new content for the waterways - one big new dungeon, a couple of smaller locations, many new random encounters and other stuff. I'll leave it to you guys to find out for yourselves.
On a related note I halved the price of all the fancy jet skis and all the parts, so they will be easier to acquire now. We do not need such ridiculous prices anymore since we added the economic component to the difficulty settings.
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Here's the full change log:
General
- Improved the start up time for the game
- Initimidation now scales off either Strength or Will (whichever is higher)
- [Expedition] Halved the cost of most jet ski frames, engines, batteries and suspensions
- [Expedition] Increased the damage of all jet ski weapon attacks
Psi
- You now have to "innervate" psi abilities that you plan to use and you're limited in the number of innervated psi slots (1 + 1 per 3 intelligence, up to maximum of 6). Existing psi characters can use Will stat instead for the number of slots with some downsides, or they can opt to switch to Int by consuming a pill that's been subtly slipped into their pockets.
- Innervating psi abilities from multiple psi schools will now incur global 15% psi cost penalty per additional school
- Introduced psi reserves, which is the long term psi resource that does not regenerate naturally, but through the usage of psi inhalant which can not be done in combat. Psi reserves are depleted when you regenerate psi naturally or through psi boosters. Maximum amount of psi reserves is equal to 5 times the maximum psi points.
- Psi inhalant is craftable with some skill in biology and chemistry.
- All existing player characters will get generous amount of psi inhalants first time you load the game in new version
- Upon loading the game for the first time in the new version, a random set of psi abilities will be pre-innervated for you. If you don't like the random selection, just reload the same save.
Psi Abilities
- Force Field psi cost changed to 40 (up from 25)
- Force Field is now destructable and has its health points scale with invoker's skill. Each segment of the force field has separate health, but destroying one will destroy all of them.
- Thermodynamic Destabilization base damage percentage changed to 30% (down from 50%) and it now scales by 0.5% (down from 1%) per skill point and is capped at 100%.
- Thermodynamic Destabilization action point cost changed to 10 (down from 20)
- Enrage maximum duration changed to 2 (down from 4)
- Increased the amount of damage of Neural Overload and Psi-cognitive Interruption blocked by resolve
- Added psi mentors for all psionic abilities in the game (except one) to the random loot table
- [Expedition] Psycho-temporal dilation and Limited temporal increment learning requirements swapped to their correct positions
- [Expedition] Psycho-temporal contraction now has a high chance of causing its opposite (with randomized power) when it expires
Items
- Biohazard suit now provides full protection from a certain very, very bad gas
- Spearhead sniper rifles will now have base action points of 32 (up from 30)
- Rapid Reloader firearm enhancement will now also have a 25% chance of restoring a random amount of action points ranging from 50% to 100% of the base action point cost of the weapon (but capped at 20ap); this can only trigger once per turn
- Dragunov now costs 30 ap to fire (up from 25) and has 60% chance to restore 10-20 ap once per turn; also has slightly increased damage
- Added shiv blueprint
- [Expedition] Psionic Accelerator now increases psi regeneration by 50% (up from 20%)
- [Expedition] Added Kzozel Yantar, a stronger version of Kzozel
Creatures
- Reduced the throwing precision of hunchback mutants
- Mutant dog's acid blob attack will now deal some of its damage directly
Quests / Areas
- Added a mercantile check when paying to use the Wormhole
- Silas' death will no longer fail the attack on Scrapper base quest; the player can now speak with Colton to get the reward instead
- Added shiv components to certain encounters in which the player loses his inventory
- Added new graphics for a few secret cave doors
- [Expedition] Added more content for the waterways - one big new dungeon, a couple of smaller locations, many new random encounters and other stuff
- [Expedition] Added some new ways to escape from a jail guarded by a hefty knife thrower
- [Expedition] Added a vending machine to the Gray Army base; it accepts zlatortiyas only
- [Expedition] In the same base, it is now possible to translate messages on one of the computers with sufficient intelligence
- [Expedition] Added a tool with which the player can repair/configure a certain camp defense asset; found in multiple locations in the Black Sea
Visual
- You can now zoom the game in by holding shift while scrolling the mouse button, but the feature needs to be enabled in the options first
- High explosive and frag greandes and mines now have new visual effects
UI
- Made a new death screen that will allow you to scroll through the combat log to see exactly what killed you if you didn't catch it during combat
- Fixed the scroll bars so they can be mouse scrolled when moused over
Feats
- Locus Of Control - Change AoE radius to 2 (down from 3)
- Force User - now also increases health of force field by 50% (plus 5% per spec, max 5 spec points)
- Critical Power - Base bonus changed to 1% (down from 1.5%) and spec bonus changed to 0.1% (down from 0.15%); I'm not happy with this feat in general. Straight unconditional passive damage boost feats is something I'm going to avoid in the future for sure
Tweaks
- Acid pistols (and other acid attacks) will now spill acid on the ground regardless of whether they hit the primary target or not
- Certain random encounters will no longer appear in low-level zones (Arsonist in early under-passages, rabid dogs in Crossroad Caves, etc.)
- Balor now has Sprint, and gets an adrenaline shot on higher difficulties
- Cliff can now be given a coagulation shot to stop him from bleeding to death
- Kareem now needs his "memory refreshed" when asked about certain things
- The Black Eels questline can now be started after you've found the drill rotor circuit board
- Halved the amount of money Mykola needs to repair one big machine from 2000 to 1000 charons
- Some dialogs tweaked to reflect the new psi changes
Bugs
- Fixed the bug that cause the energy shield to dissipate at 2% instead of the nominal 10% rate every turn, but I set it to 5% base now instead because 10% just seems a bit too severe to me now; also changed the minimal dissipation rate to 1.5% (down from 2%)
- Explosive barrels and various misc. explosions should now properly trigger volatile entities such as mines
- Throwable barrels and rocks will now behave properly when throw in water (they will not detonate on impact)
- You can no longer double-click while holding a modifier key (shift, alt, or ctrl). This is to prevent situations such as rapdily alt-left clicking to transfer items from a container from also triggering the double-click event and transfering extra items. Let me know if this
- causes any anomalous behavior.
- Sledgehammer and machete handle now also count as metal components like knife one
- Fixed the bug that would cause the caster tentacles to crash the game after the player dies or disengages
- Ranged weapon innate precision modifier will now always be applied if it's negative
- Fixed Gorsky's base not being renovated on easy difficulty
- Fixed sometimes not getting a quest note (and subsequent xp once it's completed) from Kohlmeier when starting his quest
- Fixed traps not despawning after Foundry mines have been cleared, which resulted in hostile miners
- Fixed spears and nets not appearing in the loot locker in the Arena
- Fixed Saban not properly receiving his spare W2C ammo
- [Expedition] Fixed JSHQ bioscan not detecting mutagens
- [Expedition] Fixed an entrance to a cave near a certain homestead being impassable, even if discovered
- [Expedition] Fixed an important flag not being set when going through some branches during a discussion about a truly deathly topic with the Ferryman
- [Expedition] Fixed electrified floor destroying auto-turrets in Water Treatment Facility in one of the variations; also added a sound effect during discharge as to give the player a warning
- [Expedition] Fixed a bug where sleeping in the camp (and under very specific circumstances) triggering a certain crucial event even if the player, paradoxically, already prevented its occurence
- [Expedition] Fixed the final quest note prematurely being marked as completed
- [Expedition] Fixed a crash that may occur if the player obtains some floaty things for the camp too early
- [Expedition] Fixed certain native weapons being non-equippable
- [Expedition] Fixed Captain Grim sometimes ending dialog when telling him about some facilities
- [Expedition] Fixed being able to sleep in the camp even after you got fired
- [Expedition] Fixed the bug that caused players to get stuck on some hives after destroying them.
- Minor dialog/map/scripting tweaks
That's it for now guys. Let us know how you like the changes.
Cheers.
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Sweeeet!
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Great job, I'll test everything I can ASAP.
So ... The dissipation rate of energy shield was a bug ... How intresting !
"Rapid Reloader firearm enhancement will now also have a 25% chance of restoring a random amount of action points ranging from 50% to 100% of the base action point cost of the weapon (but capped at 20ap); this can only trigger once per turn"
It was already a very strong item, why the buff ?
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Improved the start up time for the game
Dang, I was using that time to go grab a snack.
Seems like a great update, can't wait to see the new content.
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Some big changes for Psi, that's for sure. Some of the pure psi builds I saw were crazy. Hopefully it doesn't unfairly punish more support-focused uses of psi with this new resource to manage.
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Holy shit psi sniper got nerf hard by quadruple whammy: psi innervate/reserves, thermoD, critical power, sniper AP cost increase (not even counting the possible negative after effect from Psycho-temporal contraction). I suspect the rapid reloader buff won't make up for this, seems like it drop at least one class tier for sure.
Anyway glad to see Underrail is still undergoing healthy amount of of development. Would love to test these right away but can't at least for two more weeks. Damn.
P.S: thinking a bit more about this and reading some Steam comments I have to say - not a fan of the innervate part of this patch. All this will do is make lot of one trick pony builds, make gameplay boring and super unfun - weaker psi abilities will just never gets use. Having an overpower class isn't a bad thing in a single player game so I don't get the obsession about "balancing" - the important thing is to make gameplay fun and increase re-playability and innervate kills that. At the very minimum you should be able to cast non-innervated psi ability with some sort of penalty.
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Bugfixing and tweaking is Superb.
Balance changes took interesting approach, I don't see - for now - anything bad.
Also I won't be able to test it RIGHT NOW cause I'm busy with translation of ToME4 into Russian lol, so it will take a bit longer.
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The zoom changes would be good with more environmental clues missions like the one of dude missions. I dislike the limit of psi abilities, good thing you can atleast change it with consumable. And RIP to builds that base on criticals.
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Build variety for PSI usage is going to take a huge nose-dive. So many of the abilities will just never get used now.
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You can switch set of spells but you need to eat consumable. Thats not bad, the truly bad thing is PSI cost increase with each added spell. I had temporal manipulation taking 90 psi point as fifth spell with psychosis build!!!
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Ho-ho, Vancian cave wizards, here we go!
edit: early impressions: You need 8 slots to be the reasonably attainable max, not 6. You've got 8 skills per psi school, and it isn't even thematically consistent to restrict beyond that. I get the mechanics for how you're limiting psi generalists - and who knows, maybe it'll end up being a fun new way to go instead of the mistake it looks like right now - but you aren't just controlling psi options with 6 innervated slots, you're limiting beyond mere single-school specialization.
I think 2 slots + 2 per 4 Int would be a better number without ever feeling like there's no sacrifices that need to be made. Still would require 12 Int to unlock all the slots so you couldn't have 18 Will *and* all the spells, but it would allow pure psi to roll out the gate with 6 slots and pick up their eighth by Depot A, which is when you really want newer players to have as many options available as possible.
I do like the psi points and psi reserve. That feels like a pretty good resource management tool. Not sure I like wiping out both the psi pool and the reserve when switching innervated slots, though. Seems like the pool should empty then refill from the reserves. But if those inhalers are more common than they first appear to be, it won't really be a problem either way.
As a general statement, though, I hate it. The real joy of psi wasn't the power, it was the ability to try out nifty things and expand replay potential. Congrats, you've gimped psi into a one-trick pony and ensured that we'll all just be cheesing the same techniques again and again. If this is now the next game handles psi, I definitely won't buy or play it.
second edit: You need to do something for poor Psychosis. This psi change isn't bothering Tranquility builds nearly as much. Maybe keep the increased psi cost for Psychosis but give it a psi reserve leeching effect so that the long-term costs come closer to balancing out? When there was no global accruing resource management metagame Psychosis only had to worry the immediate psi pool considerations, but with crit chance being non-deterministic Psychosis again gets the shaft with increased total costs, thus increased global costs, and a benefit gated by RNG.
I do like the new resource management and how it forces non-psi use regularly; but, man, poor Psychosis builds.
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This is a glorious day.
Must try a psi hybrid character immediately.
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I love how the game evolves. I really played a lot in the past year and enjoyed how so many different builds are possible, none of them boring.
I've never been a big fan of pure PSI builds, though, so I don't know how to feel about the general PSI nerf, but the Temporal Manipulation school was great for any non-PSI build and I wish it would be possible to use this in exactly the way it functions right now. For 'real PSI' builds, allowing two schools of PSI and then adding AP/PSI cost for learning/using more might be a simpler and less restrictive choice. I agree with people saying that the limit on few PSI abilities will just reinforce well-known patterns of extremely useful abilities and lots of other abilities won't be cast, a pity. If you allow people two schools, they can at least experiment with "their" specialty.
Having played thematic builds like Snow White and Nova (you can guess what they did focus on) it seems to me, PSI should encourage a player to focus and get better with one set of abilities, but for instance, just being focussed on Ice PSI never felt massively overpowered with the rule set at hand and now introducing different sets of resources for this feels a bit convoluted.
As regards the nerf to spearhead and crit power, I don't know, is this an area where huge imbalances existed? For single player, I don't get why the existing rules needed adaption, my reading of the builds section was: you can build cool glass cannons, or many other different builds and they worked well. If anything, why not focus on builds like sword that get no love as the flurry thing seems a bit underwhelming instead of removing well-working builds? Why tinker with them?
Disclaimer: I'm not on beta, so maybe the nerf to crit power will make no big difference, but for instance the nerf to spearhead seems to make sniper rifles pretty unattractive, as two attacks per round at most seem not that useful... is there any weapon that does less now?
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I do like the psi points and psi reserve.
I don't like the current psi reserve mechanic. The fact that when the psi-reserve is expired, the psi-boosters are weakened by half leads to an extreme weakening of the Psionics in protracted battles.
Natural replenishment limits are reasonable, I admit. But the hefty penalties for Psi Boosters make "waves of enemies" a death sentence for the Psi Wizard and a very, very big problem for anyone who relies on Psi.
Why don't we then introduce overheating of the barrels so that gun lovers suffer as much as we do? I know that weapons have wear, but even if you can't repair them in battle, you can change them. Psi reserve is something that we cannot do anything about in any preparation. If we are caught in a protracted battle, which will cost us more than 600 psi, we are dead bodies. With no exceptions.
So much talk about Psi having to gobble up resources just to give us a problem that can't be solved by resources ... Styg, are you serious?
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Having an overpower class isn't a bad thing in a single player game so I don't get the obsession about "balancing" - the important thing is to make gameplay fun and increase re-playability and innervate kills that.
I agree. While I haven't had much time with the beta judging from the comments so far it seems to be an unreasonable "fix" to a non-issue. Balance is a legitimate concern in MP games where you want to encourage a variety of play styles and ensure an even playing field for all players but no one's forcing people to play certain builds in Underrail. All this will do is discourage people from playing psi at all because the cost of doing so is much higher. The alterations to individual powers, like making force field destructible, are enough to ensure they aren't spammed so often but the major changes need to be rolled back because limiting options in a single player game for the sake of "balance" is just silly.
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Congrats killing PSI characters. Even if it's experimental branch, for even considering these nerfs as credible, be sure i'll pirate all your future games.
RIP UnderRail.
I sincerly hope you'll suffer a painful, slow, agonizing death which will bring you alot of psychological and physical pain Styg. I fucking sincerly hope so.
Its a video game, you'll live.
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Changes look very good in general, will comment more after I play-test them.
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Critical power was way overpowered. Its still very strong; this nerf wasnt that much. And swords are plenty strong, especially with crit power.
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New psi bar (reserves) - good, VERY good, now it is rly feel like self power, not bottomless well of some magick power. But no natural recover - is bad. It is just not logical, u can add some minor regen like 1-5 and it is will be enouth. Ppl will still use inhalant, but will be happy see some natural regen. Maybe even done some perks on it (with some mad story in Dude style).
Psi innarvate - not bad idea, but it is give benefits only to some build,where psi is support, not a main instument. But for pure psi it is rly bad, was fun use good amounth of skills for different situation. Pure psi was not best at start, now it is also veeeeery expensive, cost of inhalant is insane for novice, but good for midgame. Also now some psi skills like disruptive field become total ussles, just becouse you dont have slot for it.
Was better if you add some CD between psi schools - like neural swaping or wateaver. Anyway 6 slots is to low for pure builds, there ALOT of of ways to give ppls more freedom - like perks what trade hp for slot, or some other way.
Hope you will listen and done game even more great.
Cheers
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Interesting approach. Now we will hardly see a pure psionic. Psi disciplines are becoming an additional weapon, and not the main one as before, and the use of skills from different schools becomes problematic.
Pure psionics will certainly raise a controversy over this. Maybe it would be worthwhile to reduce the psi discipline easier: by introducing long cooldowns, chances of hitting and some damage reduction?
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- Psi gives you too many utilities. Due to how the psi functions now (prior to this update) it's almost impossible to add new stuff to psi without extending the already bloated spectrum of combat utilities of any given psi generalist (which most psi builds are) even further, since, unlike with combat utilities, there are no limits to what a psi invoker can access during combat.
That's the point of magic though, to have spellbook full of varied spells and cast them on a whim. Sure, it's OP but how can wizard not be OP? Limitting amount of psi abilities that can be cast is disastrous change and I hope you reconsider.
I fully agree PSI needed nerf and making people focus on their spellbook is ok concept. Just the execution is bad because it prohibits casting spells, opposite of what is fun.
Maybe allow casting not-innervated spells with significant psi cost/ap penalty?
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Also, "balance is not important in SP game" kind of reasoning is absolutely incorrect.
For turn-based games, good balance is EXACTLY what sets good games (i.e. XCOM 1/2) from bad games (gazillion of XCOM clones).
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Congrats killing PSI characters. Even if it's experimental branch, for even considering these nerfs as credible, be sure i'll pirate all your future games.
RIP UnderRail.
I sincerly hope you'll suffer a painful, slow, agonizing death which will bring you alot of psychological and physical pain Styg. I fucking sincerly hope so.
Wow. This is totally uncalled for. It's a video game, you don't need to wish horrible pain and death over it.
More to the point, I agree with TheAverageGortsby in that some of the psi changes (particularly the innervate mechanic) will gimp pure psi and overall build variety and leave players with nothing but one-trick pony psi hybrid builds. I sincerely hope that this mechanic will be tweaked, as it seems flat out unfun in its current implementation.
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You can switch up your spells anytime you want, depending on the situation you're in. I haven't found the inhaler blueprint but I get the feeling it won't be anything expensive or rare.
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Ok, so after some (admittingly, rather preliminary) tests of the new innervate mechanic (the way it's currently implemented) I've come to the following conclusion:
It seems to heavily encouraged savescumming for no good reason.
While "spells slots" in classic P&P games (D&D and the like) are time-honored mechanic, this simply does NOT translate well into a video game format (that, unlike P&P, has an option to re-load a save on demand).
What ends up happening is, effectively, any player CAN, in fact, change innervated abilities even after the combat has started -- by simply reloading.
So why not "cut out the middle man" and simply make it so abilities only "lock up" into "innervation slots" after you've used them once? While using psi inhalant would simply "free up" all the slots again. Effectively this will achieve very similar result (limit the number of abilities you can use in a given combat to your number of innervation slots), but it will encourage substantially less reloading.
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Individually, these PSI changes are an interesting way to bring PSI a bit more in line with the rest of the build archetypes.
The biggest problem that I can see is that you've taken several substantial nerfs to PSI and applied ALL of them at once.
The nerfs to the biggest overpowered/overused PSI abilities (P-TC, wall, thermo destab etc) would have been one substantial nerf, the %psi cost increase for using spells from multiple schools would've been another, and then the imbue limit would've been a third. I think it would've been much more reasonable to launch an experimental branch with one or two of these nerfs instead of all three at once.
IMO - you should keep the individual op ability nerf as well as the %psi cost nerf. Make it function like a debuff, if you cast a thermodynamic skill, grant a 15% debuff to the cost of all your other psi school spells for ten turns or something and then just have one for each discipline that applies in turn. This also has strategy implications, as you might want to think about when the most appropriate time to activate that TK skill you want might be, knowing that it'd have consequences on the rest of your abilities.
The imbue limit in my opinion is just outright over the top and should be fully reverted or given a MUCH higher base limit (base of 4, +1 per 3 int sounds far more reasonable if you are really invested in the concept). As it stands, a medium investment psi character (i'd consider 6 int to be medium investment) can use THREE psi abilities. three. Its just too much.
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Congrats killing PSI characters. Even if it's experimental branch, for even considering these nerfs as credible, be sure i'll pirate all your future games.
RIP UnderRail.
I sincerly hope you'll suffer a painful, slow, agonizing death which will bring you alot of psychological and physical pain Styg. I fucking sincerly hope so.
What the fuck is wrong with you xD
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Also, "balance is not important in SP game" kind of reasoning is absolutely incorrect.
For turn-based games, good balance is EXACTLY what sets good games (i.e. XCOM 1/2) from bad games (gazillion of XCOM clones).
The individual tweaks to skills altering cooldown, stat bonuses, etc are fine. This is an overhaul of basic game mechanics that makes it more difficult for any character to use psi. Pure builds suffer from being restricted to a whopping 6 skills max and greatly increased psi cost and hybrid builds that don't invest much in INT will only get 2 on top of everything else and thus not much reason to invest in psi. This can all be fixed with two things.
1. Increase the slots for available spells with the MINIMUM being six.
2. Remove the increased psi cost for having spells from different schools.
There's a few minor tweaks I'd make like how force field should have reduced health but it doesn't dissipate if one column is destroyed but those two points need to be implemented otherwise a lot of potential builds end up in the trash. And I can't believe I have to say this: If you don't like pure psi THEN DON'T FUCKING PLAY PURE PSI. Again, you are NOT FORCED to play one specific way. Pick one of the dozens of other builds that you enjoy and let people have fun being a meth huffing cave wizard.
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You need 8 slots to be the reasonably attainable max, not 6. You've got 8 skills per psi school, and it isn't even thematically consistent to restrict beyond that. I get the mechanics for how you're limiting psi generalists - and who knows, maybe it'll end up being a fun new way to go instead of the mistake it looks like right now - but you aren't just controlling psi options with 6 innervated slots, you're limiting beyond mere single-school specialization.
New psi bar (reserves) - good, VERY good, now it is rly feel like self power, not bottomless well of some magick power. But no natural recover - is bad. It is just not logical, u can add some minor regen like 1-5 and it is will be enouth. Ppl will still use inhalant, but will be happy see some natural regen.
I'd say these two ideas are the best in the thread so far, and would go a long way in relaxing the extreme ruleset in its current implementation. I would definitely recommend implementing these two changes in a hotfix patch for experimentation.
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15% increase psi cost modifier for each cross-discipline spell is wayyy too harsh. If you're using 3 psi disciplines psycho temporal contraction literally costs too much to even cast.
I don't mind the idea (there should be some efficiency or synergy when specializing in a discipline), but if you're going to do that you should lower the base cost of all psi spells. Otherwise it just too much to bear with only 100 psi points.
Also I cast my vote with the others. The base psi ability slots is too low. Should be 4 minimum + int/3 seems good.
On a lighter note. Thanks for making this amazing game :D
[Edit]
On second thought - 2 slot minimum + int or will(whichever is higher)/2. This gives more variance, and 4 is too high for someone who isn't specialized.
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So my thoughts on current update:
Psi spells nerfs - I agree with them, though there will need to be some more numbers balancing in the future imho.
I am not a fan of psi reserve, makes it very harsh to start as psi user. I have another suggestion that might bring required effect while offering some leniency:
Using psi abilities decreased your max psi by % of cost of the spell (10-20%). You max psi cannot be reduced bellow x%(25%?). To "heal" your max psi you need to use inhaler.
I hope implications of such system are clear.
As for innervate spells - While in theory the system is interesting, in practise it will lead to pushing out niche psi spells out of the game. There are spells that need very specific situation that arises maybe once every 2-3 hours of gameplay. And considering most psi users will have 3-5 psi slots, there will not be place for them even if you will be using just one school. I do not think this is a good solution, but I agree that something more needs to be done to limit the versatility.
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Good lord this update is a bit heavy handed, no? Taking what was widely considered the most dynamic and versatile build in the game (pure psi) and reducing it to this frankly pathetic level of one dimensional rinse and repeat drivel is pretty sad to see. I really don't know exactly what you were going for here Styg, but if your goal was to make new players hate Psi and old players ignore it completely in favor of other more tried and true viable build methods then you've most likely achieved that goal with these changes. I'm glad you're still invested in updating Underrail, but this... this just seems like some hamfisted blundering here, not a nuanced refinement of a system that was admittedly a bit overpowered but still absolutely enjoyable to use. I hope you rethink these changes because they don't seem like they do anything but restrict the options available to the player, which in a single player role playing game is very rarely a positive thing.
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Psi nerfs I can agree with to a certain extent. I think that Force Field should be nerfed even more, by only casting a sinlge tile under base conditions and you should get additional ones depending on your Psychokinesis skill.
Crit Power nerf is also something I can live with.
However, I'm really devastated by the nerfs my temporal sniper build have to suffer. It was so perfect. If I interpret the changes correctly, then Rapid Reloader doesn't lower the AP cost at all, it only has a small 25% chance to provide aditional AP from time to time, and even then the bonus will be a random amount between 16 and 20 (with a Spearhead). This makes it completely unreliable and brings more RNG - something my build efficently ruled out in favor of maximum efficency. Now I cannot count ahead with my AP and also even if I receive the bonus, thanks to the Spearhead nerf, I can't shoot 3 times even with max bonus from RR and Temporal Contraction.
The main point in making hybrids was to utilize the synergies between different abilities - that part was the main reason I though so highly about this game's design. Now that's gone. Especially with what happened to the Temporal school. Now there's no synergy anymore, just skills on their own. I can't help but feel that this update is from some bootleg alpha stage.
Regarding Temporal Contraction... that nerf is the death sentence for my build. It's made around using that spell with the fully specialized Acceleration feat, so being buffed every 4th round for a whooping 72 AP 3 out of 4 turns. I honestly thought that with Expedition, this spell being used with the Rapid Spearhead's AP cost of 24 is intentional by the devs promoting psi hybrid snipers. It's not unintentional fortunate circumstances, they acutally thought it out like this. My build is tailored to use this ability not once per battle, but for at least 3 times, enjoying it's effects for 9 turns out of 11. It is why I have increased Will and Intelligence too and took up 3 psi feats. This nerf brokes that to pieces as if you use it once, you better finish the battle within 3 turns (if you wasted a feat slot for Acceleration) because if any enemy is still left standing afterwards, you'll be helpless and die.
This makes Contraction to be used when the fight is nearing it's end. When it'll be completely pointless. The point of this spell is to use it FIRST ROUND when there's many enemies to clear, so you can take as much down as possible before they'll be able to really utilize their advantage in numbers. So after it wears off, you'll be left with less, making it easier to deal with your base AP. Now the fear of it backfiring on you will make most people use it when they can estimate the fight's end within 3 rounds, meaning they already dealt with the enemy's main force. This makes Temporal Contraction utterly useless against crowds - the occasion when you need it the most.
I only used Increment and Contraction (not even force field as it seemed broken and basically cheating in it's former state), so I'm fine with the spell slot restriction too. This update was meant to favor psi hbrids as they have more divided stats and skills compared to pure psi users. But with nerfing Contraction like this, there won't be any point in making psi hybrid builds, I just go pure firearm. Definetly doesn't worth to use Temporal (let alone tailor my build around it) and loose 25%HP for psi empathy, waste all that stat points, all those skill points and 3 feats slots to have a broken build that's specialty is self-pwning when you can invest all that and go pure firearm user and specialize in it completely without suffering the compromises you made for being hybrid.
The Temporal nerf doesn't propagates hybrids, it makes them impossible to use. It benefits complete psi-less builds, thus resulting in the exact opposite of what it hoped to accomplish.
I just hope that update won't be forced on everyone, the devs should leave it to the players which version they want to play depending on if they would like to play hybrids (then go for the previous version) or pure psi users / psi-less builds (go with the new update).
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I really think PSI needs either a new feat or an existing feat allowing us to swap psionic abilities once per combat at least, at some ap cost, maybe even PSI cost. Alternatively additional slots via feats or maybe visiting mentors and getting quests from them could be an idea as well. 8 still feels a little bit too restrictive.
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Explosions looks really good but out of place compared to the rest of graphically aging engine :) But we dont play underrail for graphics.
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If we are caught in a protracted battle, which will cost us more than 600 psi, we are dead bodies. With no exceptions.
Oh, not at all. This is one part of the mechanic that is without flaw from concept to execution - Styg wanted to make sure that psi was not infinite, and it is not; whether you agree that his idea was necessary, it is in this case well-implemented. This makes it all the more important to pick up alternate methods of damage dealing - Grenadier will be coming back into vogue for pure psi builds as something nearly necessary rather than just occasionally helpful. Traps and stealth will become more important when setting up the field of battle for large fights. And, of course, specializing more heavily into the abilities you do use so they're more efficient at killing enemies will be the choice build.
All we really need is a third psi booster type, now - one that can be used in combat, is rare/expensive beyond the inhalers, and only restores psi reserve. That way protracted fights like the natives incursions or the Balor and Beast fights can be managed more reasonably as pure psi. Alternately, a psi feat that leeches reserve points somehow (like I previously recommended for Psychosis, and still think Psychosis needs to be viable in the current form) into psi reserve would work. Psi reserve regeneration would also work, but isn't consistent with Styg's desire to have a globally scare resource, so probably won't make an appearance unless he changes his mind substantially.
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This is clearly going to be a very divisive update. Don't you agree it would be a better idea to introduce this as an option for players rather than a requirement, like oddity/combat exp is, since it's such a massive overhaul of already preexisting mechanics that have been in place for years? This would render characters (like mine) that people (like me) have over 60 hours of playtime in basically useless because we didn't spec ourselves out with these mechanics in mind. For its own game mode I think this is all fine and dandy but I think it's super unfair to players to bust out such a major overhaul in a game that isn't even in early access when you can sink such a massive amount of time into the game on one character.
I'm currently on my first character and after 60 hours I would honestly be pretty pissed off if a random overhaul just rendered her useless or made her any weaker than she already is tbh, I would be demotivated to make a new one just to get back to where I was in the story because I got hardlocked since suddenly I can't use half my abilities. I also agree with people saying this would discourage psi hybrids, it's a very strict new set of mechanics and in my case a 4 will 5 int squishy psi monk would suddenly not be able to survive a lot of situations that they previously would barely be able to scrape by.
I mean if that *has* to be pushed on players then at the very least is there a way to skip out once it leaves experimental? I got it on steam so idunno if that's even a possibility.
also I really don't like the choice to give Force Field HP only due to the fact that enemies can already shoot *through* it if it's placed diagonally or if they're standing diagonally facing the player. I mean there's literally a whole ass wall in front of them but somehow they can shoot through it and I can't, so unless that gets fixed first it'd really risk making that ability not worth using in too many situations.
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Well, the new patch makes the cave wizard power fantasy alive again, if that means trivializing the game only and nothing more.
Even a dipper has 3 slots now, which is enough for the static tempo buffs+Stasis. A real cave wizard will have 6 at the very least, which is more than enough. 10% per school is very livable. It counterbalances the Expedition power creep somewhat but not enough to challenge the vets, yet quite deterring to a lot of players. Make the whole thing optional sounds like the right option.
Reserves is a real pain in the ass though, more bookkeeping + crafting + backtracking for little effect. Fill up for free in Pasquale's for early game?
As for Rapid Reloader, the change is a bonus on top of what it does, so it is a buff. People needs more than bland technical writing for laundry lists, Styg should have formatted the whole thing better. Snipers also get a new crazy feat that plinks 2 punks with a big boy for free in a turn, so they are bonkers now.
Contraction works as an additional shot of Adrenaline now, which is more fair if not fun. Psi cost reduced in new patch helps multischoolers.
Forcefield is still very powerful, if more situational, for a dedicated build. Force User is among the better Psi feat anyway.
Meanwhile, knife and firearm pistol cry in the corner with Critical Power nerf and no compensation. Weapons are generally in a good place though.
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Thank you so much Styg. I made an account to tell you how much I love this update. I wish it was kept to the original (before the hotfix) version. To me Psi has always been that thing I don't really touch because it's so ridiculous compared to attack builds.
I will now be enjoying some awesome psi builds and actually enjoy managing a resource and thinking about my loadout instead of taking every psi ability I can and just using them whenever it's needed.
Maybe most people won't appreciate just how amazing this update is but I wanted to say I absolutely love it and I love you guys for implementing it! The game really needed it and I believe it's now a much, much better game.
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Intimidation scaling with Strength is a small but awesome change.
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Hello Underrail forums. I decided to finally make an account so I could leave some thoughts on the recent changes. I think... overall... I like them. I can see potential with the new circuit system. I don't think it's perfect yet, but I like the direction that I see Psi going in terms of it's being reigned in.
1)- Psi reserves. This feels... it feels good to have to manage another resource. It means that long protracted battles will wear down a psion (battles for the aegis incorporated beach for example) but that feels about right. Other builds need to bring enough ammo or batteries, or risk getting into the thick of it in these situations. Now Psi also has this consideration. I would like to see the depletion of psi and psi reserves upon innervation to be removed (or lessened) as it feels more restrictive for a heavy psionic user to swap out powers for others when preparing for different situations.
2)- Innervation circuits. When this patch was first released on the 21st I felt that 3 was way too restrictive. Even hybrid characters, like the ones I tend to make (pistol psi, sword psi, etc) felt like they could use another slot but for 9 intelligence (and only 6 total) was a wee bit too restrictive. The recent change gives enough breathing room that I don't see problems for dual spec characters that decide to get to 8 int. By that I mean - they feel about right; they still will have to make choices as to what to memorize before engaging in certain enemies (bots vs. mutants as in depot A), and the limited selection means carefully selecting the right tool for the job.
I'd like to see some feats which can be taken for other slot unlocks. Or maybe a feat that unlocks a specific slot that, whatever ability is placed inside of it, gains a +% to crit, or lowers the PSI/AP cost, or increases it's range, or lowers it's cooldown or some such. Would be interesting to see theories about which psionic disciplines to stick in certain circuits if such were implemented. Or maybe a quest (as Sykar thought) could work. Maybe those twins could give such. I also think the trade off of power vs utility (in terms of feat selection: gain a circuit or two for a feat or two vs. increasing the power of select psi powers) could be a nice way to balance Psi.
3)- The increased Psi cost. I'd like to see this handled a different way. Instead of penalizing a player for taking 'spells' from different schools why not reward them for selecting fewer? Like... with only 1 single school in the circuits the cost is reduced to 90% and the abilities cost 2 AP less to use. If 2 you only get the 90%. At 3+ no bonuses. (or something to that effect).
Overall - I like the way this is headed in terms of the psi mechanics changing. Well done Styg.
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When is it going live? (not the test one but the official one)
One would really hope not anytime soon. I really don't like what I've seen thus far from these changes. And no matter what I feel its going to be divisive in the Underrail community. Even more so as this as some have stated is a SP game and thus "balance" really shouldn't be at the forefront.
If game mechanics and design are what they are going for which is what it seems like here than that's fine but I don't like that this change effectively kills the entire playstyle of specific builds. Updates and changes to design should allow for more diversity and not more restrictive to a specific style.
Am I the only one that feels its more restrictive now? Maybe I'm alone on that island.
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I really don't like this update, mostly new core psi mechanics.If the update comes out like this, then most likely I will quit playing.
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Well I'm mostly not bothered with the changes to psi at the moment, although I do have to say this change is very drastic (but interesting nonetheless).
But damn, having a chance to suffer the opposite effect for psycho-temporal contraction as it has become my best friend.
All in all, I'm interested in seeing how this fares in my coming playthroughs when the changes hit live.
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I really don't like this update, mostly new core psi mechanics.If the update comes out like this, then most likely I will quit playing.
Version 1.1.2.2 added a lot more flexibility for psi focused characters in the form of feats looks like. Keep in mind that this update is still in development, so if you have any concerns now is the time to address them. Adopting a defeatist attitude doesn't help anyone.
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The new psi system will now allow 8 slots.
Are pure psi and psi hybrid viable and effective under the new system, even on dominating?
Yes.
A special mention of Force Field for psi hybrid - under the new system FF will get you kill and is not worth using for 3 WIL psi hybrid and I permanently taken it out of my loadout as a result.
However with the max 8 slots limit, a lot of psi abilities will never get use now.
- Psi-cognitive Interruption, great for npc, almost useless for player. It was maybe useful for taken one psi enemy out before the change (X: doubt) but now the opportunity cost of having it taking up one valuable slot is way too great.
- Neurovisual Disruption: probably maybe useful for psi hybrid that want to snipe next turn, but even that is doubtful as you can just use 5 more AP to enter stealth mode and save up a valuable slot.
- Force Emission: not that great before the change but now absolutely garbage under new system.
- Disruptive Field: super useful before against ranged with its long range and low cost, now again the opportunity cost of having this take up a slot is too great, will never get use.
- Cryo-Shield: opportunity cost, never get use, you get the idea.
- Psycho-temporal Dilation: situationally useful before change, now oc, never get use. I'm a broken record
- Entropic Recurrence: hard to use before, now absolutely garbage under new system, oc, never get use. You know the drill.
- Temporary Rewind: same as above.
- Precognition: I occasionally turn this on before the change hope RNG goddess will smile upon me. Now? Please, oc, never get use, blah blah.
This is at least 9 psi abilities out of 32 available that will never get use due to opportunity cost at a staggering rate of 28.125%. Styg you said you want to expand the psi system, but what's the point of adding new spell if it'll either:
1) never get use because slots are valuable and it's simply not good enough to make the loadout, or
2) It's very good and a must have to be included squeezing another spell out of loadout making the old spell effectively window dressing
See for me, when I play full psi the fun comes from using specific spells under specific condition or using spells unconventionally to giving me an edge: Pre-casting Pseudo-spatial Projection and Cryo-Shield before a tough fight, Disruptive field against a sniper/xbow taking this one enemy out of the fight for several turns, cryostasis/cryo-shield against that native boss using exothermic aura, ThermoD to take out enemies' cryo-shield, Stasis to take out an enemies' pseudo-spatial projection, force field blocking npc into a far corner so he can't yell for friends, FF moving NPC to pickpocket him, cryo-shield yourself when you are on fire, etc.
The above situations do not happen all the time and occurred every once in a while. They added variety and made things fun. With the new system there's simply no place for these kinds of shenanigans now. This is why pure psi are less fun and boring now - you are doing the same thing over and over in order to be viable and effective. It does not make sense to innervated these spells to prepare for an edge case that might never come.
I prepose all psi user getting a free ability once you take the psi pill that will allow the casting of a single non-innervated spell at various cost and/or penalties with the ability itself having a cooldown of 50 ~ 200 turns to cover these edge cases.
On the topic of fun, I do have more comment on this as it had been bugging me for a while now:
There's a very thin line between having challenging mechanics and annoying, extra tedious "work".
The increased weight of repair kits means you need to return to base for repair far more often, breaking game flow making it annoying. Seriously have you try playing a pure AR tin can and watch your gun's durability take a sky dive after every fight? Or play a 3 STR SMG char trying to use trap? Locus? I know they were reduced after much outcry. A certain powerplant not letting you power everything in one go? I know you are trying to drain player resources by making them backtrack to confer a sense of hopelessness and dread - but all these changes and the design philosophy behind them, imho, had crossed this line and ventured firmly into annoying, tedious territory making the game feels like work sometimes and do not, again imho, increase the fun and challenge of the game. This trend is indeed worrying especially with Infusion currently under development and I suspect Styg is using Underrail as a test bed for future system.
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This is at least 9 psi abilities out of 32 available that will never get use due to opportunity cost
It's actually the opposite when you think about it.
It was before that those skills wouldn't see as much use whereas now the norm becomes character with combat abilities and one psi school. Duo, Trio or All-Psi school characters are going to be the odd-balls - viable still - but odd-balls nonetheless. Possibly Tri-Psi school are going to be the rarest of the bunch.
But regardless, it's precisely because of the system now favouring single school Psi that those skills are going to see more use.
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This is at least 9 psi abilities out of 32 available that will never get use due to opportunity cost
It's actually the opposite when you think about it.
It was before that those skills wouldn't see as much use whereas now the norm becomes character with combat abilities and one psi school. Duo, Trio or All-Psi school characters are going to be the odd-balls - viable still - but odd-balls nonetheless. Possibly Tri-Psi school are going to be the rarest of the bunch.
But regardless, it's precisely because of the system now favouring single school Psi that those skills are going to see more use.
This is my thinking as well.
To this I would like to add my opinion on changes to psi, it is good.
I wished for a long time that more specialization is rewarded to encourage focus on one school, and now this is true to a degree.
it is understandable that the penalty to using multiple schools and the limit on psi powers are annoying for those used to the old system. I believe that it is a matter of adapting, there will be many useful psi builds still, and the oddest spells can find use in hybrid builds, or be tweaked a bit.
For me personally, the same philosophy applies for limits applied in the form of repair kit weight, trap weight etcetera. Play with a character who is dependent on resources like these, there is usually a solution, like the Pack Rathound feat, even specialization. Or more strength, and leaving the cumbersome loot behind, only taking the lightest, most valuable stuff.
(I did however make a suggestionin the appropriate forum earlier that the Trap Expert feat would let you halve the carry weight of traps, as an alternative way of being a trap expert.)
I do realize that some players will disagree, and that is fine. I like being punished and finding ways out, and will take quality of life feats at the cost of offensive/defensive ones if I have to, it is a matter of personal taste. (I never play on dominating dificulty.)
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Let's take a look at the spells for pure psi:
Telekinetic Punch
Telekinetic Proxy
Implosion
These three are the bread and butter vs. single target
Thermodynamic Destabilization
Add in thermoD and you are cover on AOE
Psycho-temporal Contraction
Stasis
PTC for AP/MP, Stasis as reliable panic button.
That's already 6 of the 8 slots taken, if you are running psychosis build you 100% want:
Cryokinetic Orb
Now you have 1 slot remaining, please discuss how you could justify choosing those edge case spells over the following:
Cryostasis
Pyrokinesis
Force Field
Electrokinesis
Electrokinetic Imprint
Limited Temporal Increment (a must if you also take Grenadier)
Let's say you are running Trans psi build, and forever reason(s) you don't pick up Cryo orb, again please explain why you'll choose those edge case spells over the above objectively better spells.
Or if you have some alternative loadout for pure psi that would take edge case spell as core spells I would love to hear it.
Alright let's look at 3 WIL psi hybrid:
I'm running 6 or 7 INT for Premeditation and crafting related spells, force field is out due to it's low hp and unreliability. I have 5 slots, a typical load out would be:
Thermodynamic Destabilization + Limited Temporal Increment (w/ Grenadier I have triple explosions within 2 turns, the most effective combo hands down)
Psycho-temporal Contraction (for AP + MP)
Stasis (panic button)
So with the one slot remaining, what would you pick and what's your reasoning?
For me it's one of the following:
Cryostasis - great silent control
Electrokinesis - build specific such as pistol build would use this to execute, otherwise use as stun on demand
Electrokinetic Imprint - instant trap
Again the edge case spells are not even worth considering due to opportunity cost. If there's some factor I'm not considering where edge case spells should be consider as core spells please post them.
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Okay Styg if there was one mechanic that I could get you to completely remove from the recent Psi-nerf it would be the increased cost penalty for cross school usage of Psi-powers. That is absolute cancer and it makes it near impossible to function if you rely on Psi-powers to get you through the game if you ever get in a encounter more dangerous and/or complex then several mook tier enemies. If I where to be honest everything else is more or less fair such as forcing Psions to think about what powers they want to use in a specific encounter and also making them reliant on resources like any other class (Though I think some tweaks are needed for those aspects as well.). However that one mechanic is a big kick to the bollocks that just destroys your ability to play as someone who relies on using Psionic abilities from multiple schools on anything but the lowest difficulties and even then its hell, and I can't even imagine what it would be like if I made a Psychosis build.
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Full psi builds are my favorites. They were indeed more powerful than other builds and I can understand the desire to tone them down. But there are too many nerfs at once. It would be understandable if the goal was to make full psi builds impossible and to force players to chose them as complementary utilities, but it seems you want the full psi build route to still be possible. In this case, you should reverse some of the nerfs. The major advantages over other builds were unlimited resources and versatility. The introduction of the limited psi pool per fight is like denying a player to use grenades, even if they are in his inventory. You have the necessary resources in your inventory but you can't use them. And the introduction of innervated abilities is like denying a player to use grenades, even if they are in his inventory because he didn't chose them before the fight. It could make sense balance wise with other builds (you have to carry the grenades, and if you don't take them with you, you can't use them, so with the same idea, if you don't innervate your ability, you can't use it). But with the introduction of psi reserves, a psi user already has to carry its ammo (the psi boosters AND inhalants).
Like some others, I think that, at least, the increased cost penalty for cross school usage of Psi-powers should not exist, as the limited number of innervated psi slots will already limit the versatility of psi users.
"Psi does not require any expendable resource". That was true outside of combat, but now, with 2 different ressources, I could imagine Deep caverns to be a real pain.
I also personally think that psi boosters don't really make sense anymore, lore wise. If psi is something that doesn't regen naturally and if you need psi inhalant to gain psi back, what do psi boosters do ? Psi inhalants already give you psi. I understand it gameplaywise, but not lorewise. With the former system, it made sense: Psi regenerated slowly, so you had to use outside sources to get it back quicker.
Here is my proposition:
- We keep the "innervate abilities" and the limited psi reserves. This pool doesn't regen, so you still use one ressource (either psi inhalant or psi boost) to get psi back in the reserves. You can still use them during a fight to replenish your psi reserves. Maybe only one of them could be usable during fights to replenish psi reserves, but more rare and craftable later. Your usable psi pool regen slowly (maybe slower than now), but we get a new action that costs action points, "concentrate", which transfer psi from your psi reserves to your usable psi pool. Like a reload action for psi. The more intelligence (or will), the less it costs (AP), or the more psi you transfer. It could also bring nice possibilities for creatives feats linked to this action. But we should not need a consumable to do that.
And the increased cost penalty for cross school usage disappears.
It would bring psi builds in line with other builds without making them subpar.
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For me the issue with the new system - which I haven't tested, so this is just by looking at the changelog - is that it looks new player unfriendly. It's easy to discuss the usefulness of schools & abilties when you've played a ful psi at least once. But for a new player? Psi, while not a new sci-fi concept, is not very intuitive, at least compared to weapons.
I'd rather have changes to how abilities work (e.g. being able to destroy force fields is a great idea, because enemies were unable to do anything against it before), and changes in enemy ai and usage of skills (does anyone even use temporal for example?).
Half of the fun with my very first character was experimenting with all the psi schools and abilities. But it looks like the upcoming changes are aimed mostly at experienced players and don't take into account how a first playthrough usually goes.
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For me the issue with the new system - which I haven't tested, so this is just by looking at the changelog - is that it looks new player unfriendly. It's easy to discuss the usefulness of schools & abilties when you've played a ful psi at least once. But for a new player? Psi, while not a new sci-fi concept, is not very intuitive, at least compared to weapons.
I'd rather have changes to how abilities work (e.g. being able to destroy force fields is a great idea, because enemies were unable to do anything against it before), and changes in enemy ai and usage of skills (does anyone even use temporal for example?).
Half of the fun with my very first character was experimenting with all the psi schools and abilities. But it looks like the upcoming changes are aimed mostly at experienced players and don't take into account how a first playthrough usually goes.
Yes, perhaps the single biggest issue with the changes to psi is that it takes a game that is already quite unforgiving to new players by design and further reduces the accessibility of one of its major features to said new players. Simply put, newcomers are going to be far less likely to try out (and more importantly stick with) a full psi playthrough. It's just too convoluted and tedious now to be considered over something tried and true like a tin can SMG build for example.
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I'm going to make one hail mary patch feedback, and shut the fuck up after this. This is really a copy and paste from my post from here:
https://steamcommunity.com/app/250520/discussions/0/2797251375477334477/
https://underrail.com/forums/index.php?topic=5732.msg30350#msg30350
The first major theme of this update is the change to psi mechanics. The full changes are listed below. They are not primarily meant to kick the full psi builds down a notch (though they will do that), but to address the following issues with psi that I find the most problematic and detrimental to the game as a whole, not just in terms of difficulty:
Psi gives you too many utilities. Due to how the psi functions now (prior to this update) it's almost impossible to add new stuff to psi without extending the already bloated spectrum of combat utilities of any given psi generalist (which most psi builds are) even further, since, unlike with combat utilities, there are no limits to what a psi invoker can access during combat.
Psi is cheap to spec into. Even though every psi school is a separate skill, they are all based on a single base ability, which is the only one required to be maxed out in order for your character to be powerful. If you invest heavily enough into it, the psi abilities themselves will make up for many deficiencies in other areas. No other robust build works like this, they usually require at least moderately strong investment into a secondary base ability.
Psi does not require any expendable resource. Pretty much every other build does so I introduced a resource for psi as well. Now it has a dual (or hybrid if you will) resource management aspect. Also I used this opportunity to put a sort of a limit to how much psionic output you can dish out in a single fight, so we'll see how this works out.
This is the least important point, but it's still worth addressing. Some abilities are a bit too cheesey and easy to exploit so I changed them up a bit. This does not make them perfectly balanced or un-cheeseable and I know there is other stuff out there that's cheese as well. These are just the ones that bothered me the most and were long overdue to change.
If you refer to the above quote, the purpose of innervation are:
1) Psi have access to too many utilities.
2) It's impossible to add new stuff to psi
3) Psi is way too cheap to spec into: You only need high WIL and 6 INT for Premeditation
4) Psi does not require any expendable resource
5) Some psi abilities (again, hereafter refer to as spells) are way too cheesey/powerful
If you re-read my post #18 on this thread you'll see that I already said non-core spells are now window dressings. Whether the spells I listed are worthless or not are always up to debate. @Tamiore, in fact, you agree w/ me some spells are just not good enough to justify a slot. By default, the innervation slot system will screen out some spells as non-core spells, making Purpose #2 pointless. I already said as such:
This is at least 9 psi abilities out of 32 available that will never get use due to opportunity cost at a staggering rate of 28.125%. Styg you said you want to expand the psi system, but what's the point of adding new spell if it'll either:
1) never get use because slots are valuable and it's simply not good enough to make the loadout, or
2) It's very good and a must have to be included squeezing another spell out of loadout making the old spell effectively window dressing
Again, this point was never addressed nor acknowledged by Styg and rarely seen in any discussion unless I bring it up.
Now onto purpose #1, 3, 4, 5: this is exactly why under the old system psi is newbie friendly: easy to build, learn and use, with a vast array of spells to choose from. Another newbie friendly build is tin can AR build and I frequently hear complaints that it is boring: burst, burst and more burst. Psi was never boring; it allows shenanigans which makes it fun. This is important and not just a moot point as it made Underrail more accessible to new players. The whole point of making a game for a dev is to make $. The whole point of playing a game for player is to have fun. When a game is hard, boring, frustrating with a high barrier of entry, than it is unlikely to sell a lot of units = less $.
With the new slots system, you are going to be doing the same core spells over and over again, which is more boring = less fun => I do not know why some of you do not seem to understand that.
For the record, I am not a fan of innervation. However since the system is here to stay I want non innervated spells to play a role and allow to be use every once in awhile (under restrictions and within limits), not an extra slot.
Styg seems to see purpose #1, 3, 4 as a bad thing. I see them as a good thing but it's his game so ...
I agree w/ purpose #5 and some spells should be adjust accordingly.
Originally posted by destroyor:
- Cryo-Shield
Never used it before. Because opportunity costs was already too high in the form of psi/AP cost.
You missed out. You can pre-cast cryo-shield + PSP before you manually start a hard fight so the AP costs are irreverent, meaning two extra layers of "free" defense. Under the new system, sure you can still pre cast them and than reset your slots but even if you are willing to spend the two psi inhalants this "solution" is bad because:
There's a very thin line between having challenging mechanics and annoying, extra tedious "work". .. breaking game flow making it annoying. .. but all these changes and the design philosophy behind them, imho, had crossed this line and ventured firmly into annoying, tedious territory making the game feels like work sometimes and do not, again imho, increase the fun and challenge of the game. This trend is indeed worrying especially with Infusion currently under development and I suspect Styg is using Underrail as a test bed for future system.
So now to have the same effect you need to spend oh my god 2 extra inhalants /s and click click click click click - fucking tedious. At the very bare minimum there should be a streamline option for this - use a non-innervated spell, auto consume 2 psi inhalant without the multiple clicks + annoying loadout adjustments.
Variety to gameplay is like spices to food: They are not necessary but sure made the food a hell lot more enjoyable.
If you are serious about this discussion and genuinely interested on patch feedback, you should review all existing patch feedback threads. It could be here, steam forum, reddit, and what have you. You will find that I am not alone in believing psi was fun to play, a strong selling point for Underrail and this latest patch reduce this fun factor. You can laugh and dismiss this as a non issue all you want; Maybe Styg never intended psi to be this way, but we are not alone on this opinion, nor are we the minority. There are dozens of us! DOZENS!
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I think that new system is great. Before there was no reason to not add one-few psi schools to every build, now you must specialize. Just like any other type of character. Can't be good at everything.
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You and Tamior are both meta slaves... just use a little imagination when playing this game.
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I think that new system is great. Before there was no reason to not add one-few psi schools to every build, now you must specialize. Just like any other type of character. Can't be good at everything.
No it is not great, at least no in execution. Full PSI is basically dead and unfun to play. You did not have to specialize. There were plenty of 1 or two school builds. Temporal was always worth a consideration as a support school to take. Many used just 45 points for Psychokinesis to get Force Field and Imprint. Many throwing builds would go Meta for Thermo. Destabil.
So yes there were very good reason to get a single school for certain hybrid builds.
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So yes there were very good reason to get a single school for certain hybrid builds.
They were ? It's still the case.
I think hybrid builds has been left mostly untouched by the update.
I'm mostly playing hybrid builds, and I replayed some of my classic personnal favorite. Not much has changed, beside I have to take new asthma psi medecine.
Even when mixing school, the increased in psi cost does not even bother that much since anyway you were using something else to do damage.
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It would require more tuning of course, but with the psi slots I wonder if it could be better balanced (so as to not completely push out niche utility spells) if each psi ability had an innervation point cost associated with it. That way your PT Contraction would cost '6 points' to innervate (or however you want to flavor it) while your neural overload only cost 1 or 2. The point cap still scales off of some combo of will and intelligence, but at least now the opportunity cost of innervating different abilities isn't locked in at a 1:1 ratio. You can either load up on
several many different utility spells or a core of high-impact ones.
Basically aping the same system as the memory utilization / skill chips similar to what's used in Nier Automata or other games. Maybe with some scaling bonus attached if you're not using up your full allocation.
I do feel that the current implementation as laid out does push out the more niche spells.
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On the topic of fun, I do have more comment on this as it had been bugging me for a while now:
There's a very thin line between having challenging mechanics and annoying, extra tedious "work".
The increased weight of repair kits means you need to return to base for repair far more often, breaking game flow making it annoying. Seriously have you try playing a pure AR tin can and watch your gun's durability take a sky dive after every fight? Or play a 3 STR SMG char trying to use trap? Locus? I know they were reduced after much outcry. A certain powerplant not letting you power everything in one go? I know you are trying to drain player resources by making them backtrack to confer a sense of hopelessness and dread - but all these changes and the design philosophy behind them, imho, had crossed this line and ventured firmly into annoying, tedious territory making the game feels like work sometimes and do not, again imho, increase the fun and challenge of the game. This trend is indeed worrying especially with Infusion currently under development and I suspect Styg is using Underrail as a test bed for future system.
Getting a bit off-topic, but I have to concur. Styg has slowly been losing sight of the fun factor over the years. It's the little things that are starting to add up. You bring up some good examples of things that slowly add up during a long playthrough and may not come up in the devs' internal testing. Some annoyances also arise as side effects of well-intended changes, for example preventing armor changing in stealth. It stops the exploiters just fine, but now everyone else has to deal with yet another cooldown, and a rather pointless one at that. Things of that nature.
There is some built-in tedium in the overarching design principles and core gameplay as well and I believe the dev team acknowledges that, but that a different thing altogether. I suspect some things are too big to change even in Infusion which builds on Underrail rather than reinvents it, as I understand it.
Now that destroyor and epeli have posted this, upon reflection, I do also agree a bit with this increasing tedium issue. I've played SMG builds recently and the constant repairing/heavy weight of repair kits leads to some cycle of fighting, and then having long down-time picking up all stuff, recycling it, making kits, repairing own stuff ... ten minutes later the journey continues. But SMGs already suffer from needing so much ammo, why also have the degradation? Other examples have been mentioned by destroyor and epeli. So, yeah, it feels like the game gets more complicated and more tedious in some ways, and maybe Styg and the devs could really look a bit into this from the player perspective for a future update. This is not about power, but much of the nerfs could probably be also achieved differently as in less tedious, for instance with PSI, instead of adding another layer of complexity with PSI reserves, why not just make normal PSI not regenerate automatically. I'm sure this requires balancing but the balancing for new PSI right now seems extensive, too. Same about the nerfs that increase tedium. I love playing the game, but I don't think it should become ever more complex, tedious and focussed on every build doing the same amount of damage at each level.
One quick suggestion on reducing "recycling" tedium: Add a button "recycle all" to the loot window, and if clicking it, the protagonist tries to recycle every item in the loot window they can recycle automatically and then just adds the resources. If the skill isn't high enough, the item just remains intact. That way, when looting, you first pick what you want to keep, then recycle the rest in one click and leave what you can't turn into resources. Might really take the edge off a bit.
Edit to add: or have some sort of repair mode, where you just drag a similar item on the one to be repaired and the dragged item will be scrapped and added to the durability. So if I want to repair my AR, I can use any AR I find and just drag it over it to repair (probably needs some tweaking on the exact way this happens, but this would also speed up a bit the tedium of repairing your stuff)
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In my opinion, the game as it is its in a perfect spot, it has the perfect amount of tedious work needed and its pretty well balanced.
Maybe the repair kits could drop in weight something like 0.5 but that's about it.
Only slight problem that I see is the wide range of randomness in the stuff available at vendors but them having a more consistent stock would make for an easier time to "break the game" (what I mean having a vendor guarantee to have napalm C or high quality stuff etc.) so in that regard its perfect how it is. It makes you do more travel between them so it ads to tidiness but its good tidiness if you ask me.
The game is intended to be this way, its not for many people that's for sure, but the ones that stick around really love it and it shows, those complains come from dedicated people who like the game and want to contribute to its improvement but I stick with Styg's side of doing things, in my books he's done a perfect job. I can't even imagine how he managed to create this work of art.
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Totally agree on the tedium issue. Repairs, weight limit, constantly having to run between vendors to see if they got something you need and to sell your stuff mars what's otherwise a fantastic experience.
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I don't mind repairs - probably because I almost never play with gun builds lol - but what gets me is recharging.
Dunno, what if descrease deterioration speed twice and like, make rapair kits cost twice more money, and requaring twice more scraps? Same for batteries.
This is obvious decision, so I don't belive nobody thought about it, that mean there is some problems with it.
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Isn't that equivalent to just giving everything more max durability and making kits a bit lighter?
I do like the idea of a "scrap everything" button for a selection of items, though.
I think Infusion could certainly do with that.
So what are everyone's experiences with the patches, now? I believe I might still have a PSI character lying around (or not - I think it was from the Alpha) who was pure psi; But tranquillity, not psychosis. Never played psychosis. I do wonder: Is this essentially a buff of psi-beetle carpace over psi-crab shell?