Underrail Forum
Underrail => Development Log => Topic started by: Styg on August 31, 2020, 10:37:53 pm
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(https://www.underrail.com/images/DevLog/PsiUpdate_Header.png)
Hi guys,
On September 7th the psi update will be release on the main branch, but before that happens I want to briefly address this controversial change again and also offer a compromise.
First I'd like to restate that the reason the psi was reworked was not primarily because of its power, though it will reign that in a bit as well. I will not list all the major arguments I've given in the previous dev log here again, but the sum of it is that the psi is too cheap to spec in, in comparison to what it offers, and that there is no way to expand upon it without even further overloading it with combat versatility. There were multiple ways to address it and I went with what I think fits well. I went in a bit too hard with the restrictions, which I have since eased on a bit (check out the patch notes (https://underrail.com/forums/index.php?topic=1566.msg30431#msg30431) for details), but the point of the experimental build was to tweak these numbers and mechanics anyway. I think it's in good place now, where both the (now somewhat nerfed) pure psi wizards and hybrids are viable, though they will require more management in terms of resources and psi selection.
Now in terms of adding more management to the psi build, one could argue that this is adding unnecessary tedium, but if look back at the history of Underrail's development you will find that we do tend to add these sort of complexities and restrictions to our mechanics as we flesh them out. Player is intended to have to pay attention and do some busywork in order to keep his character going. There used to be time when we had no weight restrictions, no selling restrictions, and at one point guns didn't even require ammo, though, to be fair, that was before the game was even available to play to the public. So you may not like this part of our design approach, but it is not at all inconsistent with what we did in the past.
The difference here is, however, that the game has been released for a long time and that the way the psi currently works has been something that's been firmly established. I will concede to the argument that it may not be fair to change it at such a late time. I should have done it way sooner, back when I added the last batch of psi abilities in the late early access stage, but I didn't and I don't have a good excuse. I do, however, still maintain that this is a good and necessary change that will benefit the game in way of build diversity, especially in the long run, even if it comes a bit late.
But for those that are firmly against this change, or maybe just want to finish their current cave wizard rampage, I've made a separate Legacy branch (on both platforms) that will permanently host 1.1.1.6 version of the game. It will receive no updates and no other version of the game will ever be preserved in this way in the future (don't worry, no further major mechanical changes are planned anyway). If you do hop between the version be advised that, as always, saves of a higher version are not compatible with older version of the game. So if you intend to keep playing on this version (either temporarily or permanently), you can switch now.
I hope that this compromise will be agreeable to most of you.
Cheers.
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Well, that is certainly quite the investment into keeping everyone happy. :o
I applaud the thought. Though, personally, I think if I had a problem with the changes (haven't even tried them yet), it would feel like purposefully avoiding a bugfix. :P
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Well, that is certainly quite the investment into keeping everyone happy. :o
It took like 10 seconds to make a new branch.
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Warframe is a game that's fun, but not engaging. Legacy Psi felt that way, as well. I never made a full Psicher. Never felt interesting.
PS: Better late than never.
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... I think it's in good place now, where both the (now somewhat nerfed) pure psi wizards and hybrids are viable, though they will require more management in terms of resources and psi selection.
... So you may not like this part of our design approach, but it is not at all inconsistent with what we did in the past.
... But for those that are firmly against this change, or maybe just want to finish their current cave wizard rampage, I've made a separate Legacy branch (on both platforms) that will permanently host 1.1.1.6 version of the game.
First it's always nice to see continue development and additional effort to Underrail.
I'm one of the more vocal opponent to the psi changes and dislike the tedium design approach. So the tedium part is pretty much settled (tradition: just because we have always done it this way doesn't mean it's right) and that's a lost battle here I guess. I just hope Styg will keep the tedium/fun part in mind in the future. However the question about psi slots effectively making tons of psi abilities useless will not be address at all? If the answer is yes than I must say I'm disappointed. :(
Lastly I really hope the legacy branch will include the bug fixes and improvements (Alt + click ground to move) ... but I guess that's also too much to ask for ...
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I try to keep the busywork at a level where it doesn't become tedious (though, that is subjective, I guess).
I did not, nor do I plan to address every complaint, that would be futile. You are many and I'm just one. But, since I'm here already: I reject the premise that it does make "tons" of psi abilities useless. It makes SOME psi abilities that were already undesirable even less desirable. But that can be further addressed with improving upon those abilities, but it is also fine for some abilities to be very niche.
There will be no updates to Legacy branch. I will not maintain two code bases. It's not a perfect solution, I know, but it's some kind of compromise at least.
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Thanks for the prompt and honest response Styg, appreciate it.
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It certainly looks like it would make players focus even more on the best abilities, even if they didn't before. I mostly liked the utility aspect of it, and then also used it for combat because I could not possibly make a psyker also effective at any actual weapon - and I like mage characters. I feel like the changes might make a psi character a lot more one-dimensional, using the same 5 abilities instead of some variety, but I can not judge powerlevel; I never went for crits, and I always considered int mandatory to craft items, so my investment will not change one bit. Or maybe I'll grow bored of it.
It took like 10 seconds to make a new branch.
Guess it's easier than I thought. Never made a branch on Steam. :P
Edit: Though something that would have been nice, even though I know it's probably very hard to do, would have been an option to replace a single feat. I remember that I bought some crafting feats that I never used on my expedition test character because, as a psi-generalist, it just didn't feel right to buy a feat that just benefited a single aspect of it. I know, first world problems.
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There will be no updates to Legacy branch. I will not maintain two code bases. It's not a perfect solution, I know, but it's some kind of compromise at least.
You're tricky. Who will remain in the old branch if there are no updates. This is not a compromise.
Although at the same time I support the decision to transform the psi. This brings variety to the game and maintains balance.
P.S. Only I ask you not to change the visual style of the game, and then in "Infusion", judging by "Real-time 3D Models" it is planned.
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You're tricky. Who will remain in the old branch if there are no updates. This is not a compromise.
Compromise or not, it addresses directly two types of complains
1) "Don't change rules in the middle of a play-though.".
2) "The game was much better before the patch, just let me keep playing that."
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Still does not change the fact that niche spells like Neurovisual Interuption are now obsolete. Are there any plans of making these spells either more viable alternatives or do we get some special slots or maybe let us cast them anyway without memorizing them.
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Here we go again.
Changing psi basicly good, but there all time some "but".
1) Niche abbility - is best way to kill game fun, all time start from ability and ended in class (build). Im rly hope on some changes on some psi abbility like d.field in future
2) Psi shools not optimazed now. Only t.control feels rly good as solo shool.
3) Well pure psi is real bad now, need alot of changes to actulizate it. No matter what "deck" you use, problem in CD and old sence of abillity's. Well i think there will be alot of work.
4) Psi was hobo from start - so bring back regen of regen of reserves *anoing player noices*
Psi now look like children's sores. Im shure it is will gone in time.
And i must admit - i like what devs dont forget lore side of changes.
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3) Well pure psi is real bad now,
This is provably false. Some players still do dominating ironman runs with pure PSI with little to no problems.
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To add to the ever growing mound of suggestions, has it been considered to make a new game option like with classic and oddity exp?
I.e. EZ mode (classic psionics) vs Normal (New psionics)
This approach is almost guaranteed to require something effectively very similar to maintaining two code bases.
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Guys, Styg wont maintain the previous system because he doesnt like it, its not how the game is intended to be played and he doesnt want to encourage new players to play it, at least thats how I see it and I have no problem with that. I get the thing with games are supposed to be somewhat "breakable", many find pleasure in that but its just absurd how psi worked until now, its like you played a different game to some extend. I really like the new changes.
I totally get that the niche abilities wont see much play anymore if at all but that only means Styg will take another look at them and try to see if he can somewhat improve them or design some system so they are not utterly useless.
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Admittedly, before the fix, the psy looked like imba. And these changes, in my opinion, have benefited the game, i.e. complicated it. Admit to yourself that going through something more difficult will get more fun than a light jog.
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3) Well pure psi is real bad now,
This is provably false. Some players still do dominating ironman runs with pure PSI with little to no problems.
Those two statements don't contradict each other.
A) Some people can probably do dominating with really bad equipment, yet good equipment is still helpful, and necessary for most players in most situations. What is useful for the vast majority may still work for some people.
B) Some psi abilities are really good, and repeatable. But the update takes away versatility (purposfully so), so while it didn't hit, or just slightly nerfed, some of the better abilities (though some of them got hit quite hard), it diminished the efficiency of other abilities.
I assume for me it just added a lot of tedium (reinnervating), but I can understand that the high end needed to be balanced.
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Compromise or not, it addresses directly two types of complains
1) "Don't change rules in the middle of a play-though.".
2) "The game was much better before the patch, just let me keep playing that."
1) The fact is that most have already completed the game. And the sequel is unknown when it will be released, and perhaps it will be a separate game.
2) And who forbids whom to play the old version? In addition, whoever wanted - he left it for himself long ago.
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3) Well pure psi is real bad now,
This is provably false. Some players still do dominating ironman runs with pure PSI with little to no problems.
Those two statements don't contradict each other.
A) Some people can probably do dominating with really bad equipment, yet good equipment is still helpful, and necessary for most players in most situations. What is useful for the vast majority may still work for some people.
B) Some psi abilities are really good, and repeatable. But the update takes away versatility (purposfully so), so while it didn't hit, or just slightly nerfed, some of the better abilities (though some of them got hit quite hard), it diminished the efficiency of other abilities.
I assume for me it just added a lot of tedium (reinnervating), but I can understand that the high end needed to be balanced.
I can agree that pure psions are somewhat less versatile after the update.
But they are nowhere near being "real bad".
Pure psion is still one of the strongest builds overall.
1) The fact is that most have already completed the game. And the sequel is unknown when it will be released, and perhaps it will be a separate game.
2) And who forbids whom to play the old version? In addition, whoever wanted - he left it for himself long ago.
1) There are always some players that haven't completed their current run.
2) Um, that's the WHOLE POINT of having a separate legacy branch. Unless such branch exists, the game will simply automatically and irreversibly update to the newest version.
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3) Well pure psi is real bad now,
This is provably false. Some players still do dominating ironman runs with pure PSI with little to no problems.
Those two statements don't contradict each other.
A) Some people can probably do dominating with really bad equipment, yet good equipment is still helpful, and necessary for most players in most situations. What is useful for the vast majority may still work for some people.
B) Some psi abilities are really good, and repeatable. But the update takes away versatility (purposfully so), so while it didn't hit, or just slightly nerfed, some of the better abilities (though some of them got hit quite hard), it diminished the efficiency of other abilities.
I assume for me it just added a lot of tedium (reinnervating), but I can understand that the high end needed to be balanced.
I can agree that pure psions are somewhat less versatile after the update.
But they are nowhere near being "real bad".
Pure psion is still one of the strongest builds overall.
1) The fact is that most have already completed the game. And the sequel is unknown when it will be released, and perhaps it will be a separate game.
2) And who forbids whom to play the old version? In addition, whoever wanted - he left it for himself long ago.
1) There are always some players that haven't completed their current run.
2) Um, that's the WHOLE POINT of having a separate legacy branch. Unless such branch exists, the game will simply automatically and irreversibly update to the newest version.
Bad =/= weak. I just dont like swap psi deck evry 5 mins and care tonns of inhalators at bag. it is just nasty.
With slots was needed change psi skills as well. Old deck was have high cd, and this was fair, now... with slots it is anoing.
Just more comfort now play at other builds, they much fun now.
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At first I saw this update as something horrible that would completely take away the versatility of the psyche, but then I realized that this update was very important to nerf the psyche that were really mutating.
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1) The fact is that most have already completed the game. And the sequel is unknown when it will be released, and perhaps it will be a separate game.
2) And who forbids whom to play the old version? In addition, whoever wanted - he left it for himself long ago.
1) There are always some players that haven't completed their current run.
2) Um, that's the WHOLE POINT of having a separate legacy branch. Unless such branch exists, the game will simply automatically and irreversibly update to the newest version.
1 and 2) I don't know how it is on steam, but GOG has a stationary version of the game that will not be updated as needed. And those who have not yet completed the game can use it.
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Last I checked Steam forces you to update.
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Last I checked Steam forces you to update.
See attachment.
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Last I checked Steam forces you to update.
See attachment.
What you just posted proves that steam forces you to update by default.
All option in that list are branches that developer manually added. I.e. if "Legacy" wasn't added manually, it wouldn't have been an option.
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What you just posted proves that steam forces you to update by default.
All option in that list are branches that developer explicitly added.
Ah sorry I misread that, I thought there was confusion on whether or not legacy would be possible on Steam. My bad.
If I'm not mistaken though, turning on the option in this attachment and then running underrail.exe directly from the Underrail folder prevents Steam from updating the game unless you run it through Steam again. In case that's something people want. This works for most games on Steam.
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If I'm not mistaken though, turning on the option in this attachment and then running underrail.exe directly from the Underrail folder prevents Steam from updating the game unless you run it through Steam again. In case that's something people want. This works for most games on Steam.
Sure, but most players will get an auto-update first, and only then realize that they may not like the new system all that much.
At which point without a legacy branch there wouldn't be an option to go back to the previous version.
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I really liked the way psi worked before and I'm a bit sad about the changes, but I must admit you really care about the game's community and our feedbacks. You really try to find compromises, it is not an easy task and it's... Not common.
So, thank for that. I though it was important to mention it.
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what armor is that
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I've owned the game for a while but got discouraged when I tried it a while back. Since then there's been a heap load of QoL changes and a bloody expansion even. I've been playing the game for about 5 days now and I'm loving it. Any new addition or tweak to the game is fine for me. I actually don't run any psi on my current playthrough but it would see I should try it out now.
I'm patiently waiting for my steam client to show me the update is live.
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I made an account just to ask this question; With this Psi update now on the mainbranch does the waterways update come with that? I know it isn't clearly stated but I don't want to assume. If not then I'll wait to start another playthrough. Thanks in advance!
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It's not a perfect solution, I know, but it's some kind of compromise at least.
It would be better if the system actually did what you claim it is meant to do. Because as far as I have seen and played the system feels like a shoehorn of D&D systems into this game with spell-slots and such. Wouldn't a better system have been to make psi abilities more like an actual weapon choice rather then simply trying to break the whole point of playing a psion, the versatility?
Are you actually open to alternatives to this system that may make both sides happy? Or is it just your way or the highway at this point?
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Now in terms of adding more management to the psi build, one could argue that this is adding unnecessary tedium, but if look back at the history of Underrail's development you will find that we do tend to add these sort of complexities and restrictions to our mechanics as we flesh them out. Player is intended to have to pay attention and do some busywork in order to keep his character going. There used to be time when we had no weight restrictions, no selling restrictions, and at one point guns didn't even require ammo, though, to be fair, that was before the game was even available to play to the public. So you may not like this part of our design approach, but it is not at all inconsistent with what we did in the past.
I find this argument strange. Tedium decreases attention. Duplicating the psi points bar and adding yet another type of potion didn't add any complexity to combat so far. To compare it with bullets: for me the fun part with pistols was experimenting with different damage types, but I never bothered to count how many my character had, because of their overabundance and ease of crafting. But there are no different types of psi points. It's just micromanagement for the sake of micromanagement. And then you add vancian magic-like memorization s lots on top of that.
Compromising doesn't always work. As I've read once: if you can't decide which shoes to wear, wearing one of each pair is a compromise. Doesn't make it a good solution.
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Not a fun of new psi rework. Instead of "collect them all" and using when i feel like, now i'm forced to be one trick pony all the time. There is still problem with 0 gear for psi based character. And gear that was added in expansion was nerfed like next patch. My character was wearing same armor for 60 hours, including ALL late game and all expansion. I also used spear as only pure-psi based weapon which was nerfed to the ground, so again - no weapons for psi either.
Tranquility while being best path also has big problem - staying at 100% health is impossible. Game like WoW which has same talent just allowed it to work until your health drops to 80%. So no longer random cough steals your bonus.
Instead of nerfing psi you should just make it harder to get, so if you want more then couple utility spells - invest more, specialize in it. If you playing pure psi build you already have 0 weapons/armors/utility choices besides craft 1 head gear, 1 armor, 1 shield and use knife for trap bonus for whole game (and uprade everything like 3 times). So reducing amount of abilities you can use makes it even more bland.
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This is really bad changes and it fixes nothing. If psi builds will be forced to specialize in one tree that means even more excess skill points and more cheaper build to spec in overall.
What psi does have an issues is lack of sustainability in any of the school, lack of spells, and high expense of those.
4 Branches (1 is support) so it cannot be counted as an actual damage branch.
So 3 branches. None of them are sustainable to walk you through the game. You can do it with knives, you can do it with sword, you can do it any gun selection, but you cannot go through the game with just 1 psi branch.
I was going metathermics and telekinesis before last boss, where I had to switch to thought control to kill him. Because metathermics maxed out would deal no damage to Tchort, unlike though control that ripped him apart in 1 turn.
Thought Control absolutely useless vs robots and if you go it I cannot see you getting through GMS compound. Even if you go telekinetics, Electrokinesis is a very weak and highly expensive spell vs robots, and metathermics is useless.
Psi builds are extremely slow due to "spell cooldowns" and the need to regenerate psi points, the 100 you have is like 2 spells or 1 turn at best. Note as well as due to low agi low dex, low str. Any psi build is lacking = Good metal armor, Good initative, Good movement speed, Good dodge and evasion. So you are literally a glass canon that always moves second, you also already have minus -20-25% hp vs any other game class.
Overall changes would not be that bad if you would fix each branch of psi making it more variable and sustainable and add proper weapons to psi build, cuz running whole game without weapon, and just later crafting 1 vest and 1 headband is beyond lame.
Yes when you had access to all 4 branches, there was a lot of utility and crowd control. But this limits don't solve any of the issues of the psi and I would not say PSI was OP in the first place.
Making a knife build allowed me to clear the game like twice faster never have issues with any robots, or running out of psi.
Like seriously can anyone please try to start a new game and spec into psi build chose your school and play it through? Doubt you will even clear first mission with rathounds.
The first spell learned - TK Punch costs 50% psi, does LOW damage and has 3 turn cooldown. So you will have to use guns instead of psi....
So overall.
Psi builds were weaker than any knife / weapon build before update and cleared game slower, now its not even worth starting a game with a psi build, good luck specializing in one tree and getting through whole game.
Seriously a much better change would be to add psi weapons, wands or whatever, and make them chargeable with batteries or something like that. They would amplify one particular branch of psi abilities and cost certain energy per each spell casted.
Also add +6 spells to each branch or rework existing ones to allow different types of damage. Does not make sense to spec into psi build that only damages humanoids.
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This is really bad changes and it fixes nothing. If psi builds will be forced to specialize in one tree that means even more excess skill points and more cheaper build to spec in overall.
What psi does have an issues is lack of sustainability in any of the school, lack of spells, and high expense of those.
4 Branches (1 is support) so it cannot be counted as an actual damage branch.
So 3 branches. None of them are sustainable to walk you through the game. You can do it with knives, you can do it with sword, you can do it any gun selection, but you cannot go through the game with just 1 psi branch.
I was going metathermics and telekinesis before last boss, where I had to switch to thought control to kill him. Because metathermics maxed out would deal no damage to Tchort, unlike though control that ripped him apart in 1 turn.
Thought Control absolutely useless vs robots and if you go it I cannot see you getting through GMS compound. Even if you go telekinetics, Electrokinesis is a very weak and highly expensive spell vs robots, and metathermics is useless.
You are not supposed supposed to only use a single school through the game under new psi system.
The only thing new system really limits is using multiple (realistically, more than 2) schools in the SAME combat encounter. But you are not fighting robots AND Tchort at the same time, are you?
Psi builds are extremely slow due to "spell cooldowns" and the need to regenerate psi points, the 100 you have is like 2 spells or 1 turn at best. Note as well as due to low agi low dex, low str. Any psi build is lacking = Good metal armor, Good initative, Good movement speed, Good dodge and evasion. So you are literally a glass canon that always moves second, you also already have minus -20-25% hp vs any other game class.
This is so wrong on so many levels I don't even know where to start.
Nothing prevents you from using psi-cost-reducing gear and boosters to sustain your psi pool almost indefinitely.
Nothing prevents you from taking high agi if you want mobility and stealth.
Nothing prevents you from using stealth to always get the highest initiative.
Etc, etc.
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This is really bad changes and it fixes nothing. If psi builds will be forced to specialize in one tree that means even more excess skill points and more cheaper build to spec in overall.
What psi does have an issues is lack of sustainability in any of the school, lack of spells, and high expense of those.
4 Branches (1 is support) so it cannot be counted as an actual damage branch.
So 3 branches. None of them are sustainable to walk you through the game. You can do it with knives, you can do it with sword, you can do it any gun selection, but you cannot go through the game with just 1 psi branch.
I was going metathermics and telekinesis before last boss, where I had to switch to thought control to kill him. Because metathermics maxed out would deal no damage to Tchort, unlike though control that ripped him apart in 1 turn.
Thought Control absolutely useless vs robots and if you go it I cannot see you getting through GMS compound. Even if you go telekinetics, Electrokinesis is a very weak and highly expensive spell vs robots, and metathermics is useless.
You are not supposed supposed to only use a single school through the game under new psi system.
The only thing new system really limits is using multiple (realistically, more than 2) schools in the SAME combat encounter. But you are not fighting robots AND Tchort at the same time, are you?
Psi builds are extremely slow due to "spell cooldowns" and the need to regenerate psi points, the 100 you have is like 2 spells or 1 turn at best. Note as well as due to low agi low dex, low str. Any psi build is lacking = Good metal armor, Good initative, Good movement speed, Good dodge and evasion. So you are literally a glass canon that always moves second, you also already have minus -20-25% hp vs any other game class.
This is so wrong on so many levels I don't even know where to start.
Nothing prevents you from using psi-cost-reducing gear and boosters to sustain your psi pool almost indefinitely.
Nothing prevents you from taking high agi if you want mobility and stealth.
Nothing prevents you from using stealth to always get the highest initiative.
Etc, etc.
So a PSI (magic caster) build is forced to have high agi / stealth? What is this nonsense?
New system essentially punishes using multiple schools, more than one, by the very least you have to get +1 useless feat keeping psi expenses the same when using 2 schools.
So a psi build cannot work without craftable gear to lower the psi costs? Cool.
Yes you do fight tchort and robots at the same time in multiple locations over the game.
Psi build is the only one that has no weapons and loses a lot on it.
Psi builds already have to max will - for damage output and max INT to be able to innervate spells.
Even before the patch it was lacking a lot, now its simply not worth playing.
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So a PSI (magic caster) build is forced to have high agi / stealth? What is this nonsense?
"Caster" is not a complete build. It just gives you "casting" as such. If you want other things (mobility, initiative, etc), you need to build for them. If you choose NOT to build for them, don't act all surprised when you can't win initiative rolls and have poor mobility.
New system essentially punishes using multiple schools, more than one, by the very least you have to get +1 useless feat keeping psi expenses the same when using 2 schools.
It only "punishes" using them within the same encounter. In no way it restricts you from having access to all schools as long as you don't try to use all of them at once. And even then 10% extra cost is not a major "punishment".
So a psi build cannot work without craftable gear to lower the psi costs? Cool.
Your point being?
Most other build will not even HAVE a good weapon without crafting. While with psionics gear mostly effects sustainability.
Yes you do fight tchort and robots at the same time in multiple locations over the game.
No, you don't. Please provide video evidence of an encounter where you are forced to fight both robots and tchort at the same time.
Psi build is the only one that has no weapons and loses a lot on it.
I fail to see how psions having no need for a weapon to deal the same damage with their mind alone is a bad thing.
If anything, it means you can use any weapon without interfering with psionics.
Psi builds already have to max will - for damage output and max INT to be able to innervate spells.
No, they don't. You can innervate spells with int of 6 or 8 just fine.
Even before the patch it was lacking a lot, now its simply not worth playing.
Some players have completed the game on dominating with psions without a single reload pre-patch. If that's "lacking", do show me some evidence of another build can pull that off.
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I'm going to offer my input on this as someone who only played pure psi and only on DOMINATING difficulty:
Maximum amount of psi reserves is equal to 5 times the maximum psi points.
I can't see myself beating the hardest encounters on DOMINATING difficulty with just 6 bars of psi points. This only encourages zone transition cheese and AI abuse to drop combat and use inhalers.
multiple psi schools will now incur global 15% psi cost penalty per additional school
This makes the above even worse.
you're limited in the number of innervated psi slots (1 + 1 per 3 intelligence, up to maximum of 6)
That's 15 Int for just 6 spells? You can't use any weapon with all the points in Int, and 6 slots aren't enough to even use only the best stuff from just two schools. Not to mention that there won't be enough cooldowns to rotate, so you'll be stuck casting something like Neural Overload or Cryokinesis, which are worse than any weapon. And you'll fail to progress in the game.
What's going to happen is pure psionics will disappear. No other build will have access to more than 2-4 spells, so every psionic build will be one of the weapon builds, but with moderate investment in one school, or low investment in two.
Force Field is now destructable
Thermodynamic Destabilization base damage percentage changed to 30%
Enrage maximum duration changed to 2
Psycho-temporal contraction now has a high chance of causing its opposite (with randomized power) when it expires
Actually, I'm not sure if any veteran will even take the psi pill now. Just delete the magic from the game if you're gonna do all this, so that newbies don't screw up their builds by using it.
If you absolutely want to go through with these nerfs, change the spell slots to 1 per 2 Int, and add perks with high Will requirement that would at least double spell slot gains, double psi reserves, and maybe reduce multischool cost penalty. Though I'll just stick to an older version if I want to play a psionic, don't mind me.
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you're limited in the number of innervated psi slots (1 + 1 per 3 intelligence, up to maximum of 6)
That's 15 Int for just 6 spells?
You're a little late to the party and that info is somewhat outdated, now. You only need 12 Int to get the max of 8 slots, and with the current New Psi system 6 slots really is plenty for a full psi build. I updated my guide several weeks ago and it's still accurate: https://underrail.com/forums/index.php?topic=4149.msg23828#msg23828
I'm not saying you're wrong to dislike this massive change - I certainly don't like it - but it's not quite as bad as when it rolled out and psi is certainly still DOMINATING-viable, and possibly even still DOMINATING Ironman viable.
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I'd like to add that not everyone dislikes the changes because it made psi less powerful. I'm fine with psi abilities getting toned down; it's the addition "fiddling around" with having to innvervate abilities, use yet another consumable, rinse & repeat. I've played a psi until core city with the current patch, so I'd say I gave it a fair try, but at this point it's just not enjoyable to play.
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You're a little late to the party and that info is somewhat outdated, now.
Yeah, my bad, I should've checked the patch notes too. My previous post is pretty much irrelevant. Still, all those changes at once look scary, I'm not sure I want to risk starting a new playthrough on a latest patch. Psi reserves seem like a chore and a potential hard cap on your performance in the hardest encounters, and the spell slots are quite restrictive no matter how you look at it. With only 8 slots I'll die from analysis paralysis.
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Psi reserves seem like a chore and a potential hard cap on your performance in the hardest encounters, and the spell slots are quite restrictive no matter how you look at it. With only 8 slots I'll die from analysis paralysis.
Psi reserves really only heavily limit low level characters, and newer players. If you understand the mechanics, and you add grenades and traps into the mix, then you'll always have plenty of psi to get through a fight. If it's truly a concern for you, make sure you pick up a tiny bit of stealth. You can always break combat partway through, stealth up to get away, and huff a paint can real fast. By the time you get solidly into the mid-game, you'll start to pick up some psi cost reduction and though you can't stack it to 60-70% all the time like you used to be able to, you'll still have plenty of effective psi pool and reserves to get through the beach invasions and Lurker map clears and Emporion and the other big fights. If you're really worried about psi reserves, play Tranquility. With Meditation and Neurology, plus Philosophy a little later on, you'll have lots of reserves. And there are a lot of psi inhalers in the game; you won't run out.
Spell slots just make the game less fun, not harder. Increased cost for cross-school use just makes the game less fun, not harder. The only reason psi might be less Dominating+Ironman viable now is because Force Field, Enrage, and ThermoD were automatic "I win" buttons before and now aren't quite as guaranteed to get you out of sticky situations, and that has nothing to do with psi reserve or spell slots - they were always highly psi point efficient and still are. Don't worry about choice paralysis - just load up your 6-8 most broadly effective abilities and keep cruising on through; and if that happens to mean you're using three schools, well, there's a feat for that.
Or, as you correctly point out, play the legacy branch and avoid this poorly thought out change entirely.
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I've played three kinds of thought-control melee builds through three playthroughs of varying difficulty.
I have preferred the most recent iteration of PSI on this knife build the most.
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So Styg when will you address the niche PSI abilities problems? You know the abilities you hardly used before and now became completely useless because the opportunity cost due to slots became far too high?
Copied from a post by Destroyor:
However with the max 8 slots limit, a lot of psi abilities will never get use now.
- Psi-cognitive Interruption, great for npc, almost useless for player. It was maybe useful for taken one psi enemy out before the change (X: doubt) but now the opportunity cost of having it taking up one valuable slot is way too great.
- Neurovisual Disruption: probably maybe useful for psi hybrid that want to snipe next turn, but even that is doubtful as you can just use 5 more AP to enter stealth mode and save up a valuable slot.
- Force Emission: not that great before the change but now absolutely garbage under new system.
- Disruptive Field: super useful before against ranged with its long range and low cost, now again the opportunity cost of having this take up a slot is too great, will never get use.
- Cryo-Shield: opportunity cost, never get use, you get the idea.
- Psycho-temporal Dilation: situationally useful before change, now oc, never get use. I'm a broken record
- Entropic Recurrence: hard to use before, now absolutely garbage under new system, oc, never get use. You know the drill.
- Temporary Rewind: same as above.
- Precognition: I occasionally turn this on before the change hope RNG goddess will smile upon me. Now? Please, oc, never get use, blah blah.
This is at least 9 psi abilities out of 32 available that will never get use due to opportunity cost at a staggering rate of 28.125%. Styg you said you want to expand the psi system, but what's the point of adding new spell if it'll either:
1) never get use because slots are valuable and it's simply not good enough to make the loadout, or
2) It's very good and a must have to be included squeezing another spell out of loadout making the old spell effectively window dressing
I think this bears repeating. Either these abilities get an update/upgrade or the opportunity cost to use them needs to be lessened.
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I haven't gone through a full psi playthrough since the change yet, but it seems to me that every time your reserves go low, you have a free opportunity to tweak your slots a bit. Really, if you're having an encounter that could use a niche spell, the only cost to using it is a desaturated psi inhalant, regardless of your current reserves.
If you have a minimal investment in biology, that cost is just 3 Mindshrooms and a bunch of stuff you find in barrels.
In my opinion, that doesn't sound much worse than changing your equipment before a fight.
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So Styg when will you address the niche PSI abilities problems? You know the abilities you hardly used before and now became completely useless because the opportunity cost due to slots became far too high?
Copied from a post by Destroyor:
However with the max 8 slots limit, a lot of psi abilities will never get use now.
- Psi-cognitive Interruption, great for npc, almost useless for player. It was maybe useful for taken one psi enemy out before the change (X: doubt) but now the opportunity cost of having it taking up one valuable slot is way too great.
- Neurovisual Disruption: probably maybe useful for psi hybrid that want to snipe next turn, but even that is doubtful as you can just use 5 more AP to enter stealth mode and save up a valuable slot.
- Force Emission: not that great before the change but now absolutely garbage under new system.
- Disruptive Field: super useful before against ranged with its long range and low cost, now again the opportunity cost of having this take up a slot is too great, will never get use.
- Cryo-Shield: opportunity cost, never get use, you get the idea.
- Psycho-temporal Dilation: situationally useful before change, now oc, never get use. I'm a broken record
- Entropic Recurrence: hard to use before, now absolutely garbage under new system, oc, never get use. You know the drill.
- Temporary Rewind: same as above.
- Precognition: I occasionally turn this on before the change hope RNG goddess will smile upon me. Now? Please, oc, never get use, blah blah.
This is at least 9 psi abilities out of 32 available that will never get use due to opportunity cost at a staggering rate of 28.125%. Styg you said you want to expand the psi system, but what's the point of adding new spell if it'll either:
1) never get use because slots are valuable and it's simply not good enough to make the loadout, or
2) It's very good and a must have to be included squeezing another spell out of loadout making the old spell effectively window dressing
I think this bears repeating. Either these abilities get an update/upgrade or the opportunity cost to use them needs to be lessened.
Sorry to say Styg reject the premise already:
https://stygiansoftware.com/forums/index.php?topic=5931.msg31218#msg31218
I try to keep the busywork at a level where it doesn't become tedious (though, that is subjective, I guess).
I did not, nor do I plan to address every complaint, that would be futile. You are many and I'm just one. But, since I'm here already: I reject the premise that it does make "tons" of psi abilities useless. It makes SOME psi abilities that were already undesirable even less desirable. But that can be further addressed with improving upon those abilities, but it is also fine for some abilities to be very niche.
There will be no updates to Legacy branch. I will not maintain two code bases. It's not a perfect solution, I know, but it's some kind of compromise at least.
Better bet now would be to wait for infusion, promptly give feedback/wishlist for a psi system in infusion that *you* would want to play and hope for the best.
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At the very least Styg could attach extra slots to a feat. Expanded PSI Capacitance would be a good choice for example, 1 extra slot base and up to 3 extra slots via specialization points. Could increase the intelligence requirements to 8 or even 10 for that. With that we had 12 slots which would equal 1 and 1/2 school powers. That would give us a semblance of the old general cave wizard. He could attach a 50% reduced cost to innervate PSI abilities attached to the Psycho-Neural Flexibility feat which can further be enhanced through specialization and open up innervation during combat. Currently losing everything makes innervating a no go during combat if it were possible.
I will never get why RPGs tend to mindlessly favor the hyper-specialization route where you spam the same shit over and over. It is boring and trite.
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Wow, I picked an interesting time to come back after not having played for 4 years. So a big set of restrictions JUST got made for Psionics, eh?
I agree with the idea to add additional costs to Psi via reserves (as you could effectively blast a group of enemies into oblivion at no cost whatsoever, no equipment durability damage, no expended ammunition, no consumables, etc). It's only a mild inconvenience but it does add some upkeep to Psionicists that they lacked before.
The Innervation definitely seems more tenuous to me. Like others have noted, this makes more niche psi abilities likely to practically never see use.
One possible idea that came to me: instead of making it so you simply CAN'T use non-innervated psi abilities, just give them an additional psi point cost. That way, you'll primarily stick to your innervated abilities as they're more cost-effective, but you won't be totally locked out of using more niche abilities.
Maybe you could pick entire Psi Schools to innervate instead of specific Psi Abilities.
Just a few thoughts off the top of my head.
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Wow, I picked an interesting time to come back after not having played for 4 years. So a big set of restrictions JUST got made for Psionics, eh?
Tbh it's actually not as bad as some people said.
It just limits the Psi, from swiss knife with huge-ass machete attachment, to a specialised toolbox.
You can still play as hybrid, but you need to think which skills will help your build. For example, sniper metathermics still able to do their old strategy, with ThermoD or Cryogenic Induction's shatter with splash of Temporal Manipulation for LTI and PTC. It's still within a class idea. But now you can't suddenly shoot ice chunks or summon hose of fire or rewind and stop time.
But in this case, TM now requires you to max it out instead of just 40 point wonder, which is honestly very fair.
Tl;dr it ain't that bad, just plan your character and skills they need
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Wow, I picked an interesting time to come back after not having played for 4 years. So a big set of restrictions JUST got made for Psionics, eh?
Tbh it's actually not as bad as some people said.
It just limits the Psi, from swiss knife with huge-ass machete attachment, to a specialised toolbox.
You can still play as hybrid, but you need to think which skills will help your build. For example, sniper metathermics still able to do their old strategy, with ThermoD or Cryogenic Induction's shatter with splash of Temporal Manipulation for LTI and PTC. It's still within a class idea. But now you can't suddenly shoot ice chunks or summon hose of fire or rewind and stop time.
But in this case, TM now requires you to max it out instead of just 40 point wonder, which is honestly very fair.
Tl;dr it ain't that bad, just plan your character and skills they need
Hybrid is barely touched by this, only pure PSI has suffered significantly. AR was and still is superior to PSI. What many liked about PSI WAS the flexibility in approaches. Now? Most will spam the same 1-3 loadouts over and over. This update has made previously niche PSI abilities basically worthless.