Underrail Forum
Underrail => Builds => Topic started by: Koveras on November 15, 2020, 01:38:47 pm
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For once I did not go for a meme build, I wanted to explore the new waterways easily. So, stealthy assault rifle build, with thoughts control support; it's no rocket science, but it's a nice change from tin can, so here it is. AR is for damage, TC for is for crowd control and defence. As expected the build is ridiculously strong: middle/high stealth, can one burst kill nearly any ennemy in the game, reliably fires 3 AR burst per turn without haste, can evade 9 attacks with Pseudo Spatial Projection, can break CC with Locus of Control, neural overload is a free AoE nuke... It can one turn kill the final boss using either two AR bursts or a single Neural Overload.
Overview:
Build link: https://underrail.info/build/?HgcDAwMNCgfCoF8AAAAAwqBPcAAAZG4rS1rCoAAAAAAAYCtPJCY7FSpKwrxJISxlBSnCtWbCu8Kdwp7CruKfogLip6oD4qe0Ct-_
Gear: 7.62 rapid muzzled hornet, Høddurform, psi sturdy stealthy tactical vest, psi headband (see below), any boots you like (I used bison tabi boots)
No critical low caliber Assault rifle:
Everyone knows AR are kinda broken, but generally people insist on including some critical. And yes, crit is good for AR, but it is by no mean necessary. I used a standard 7.62 rapid muzzled hornet. The new rapid reloader can activate on every individual shot, so it has about 90% chance of activating on a burst. The minimum AP gained this way is 4 with this rifle, which is exactly the amount needed for a second burst (27 AP for a burst, 2*27=50+4). Then we have Expertise, which is amplified by Concentrated Fire. Fully specialized Concentrated Fire goes up to 300%. Enemies are sad (and dead).
(https://i.imgur.com/ClewR9n.png)
That's a naga protector dying to one burst, using W2C ammo, no active buffs at all.
10 WILL Thought control:
There are two main reasons to go TC: Pseudo Spatial Projection and Locus of Control. These, a sturdy tact vest, and a 2K energy shield makes it rather easy to survive. And then I scaled Neural Overload as much as I could. Since crit chance is low, I only use NO when Psi Mania is available. It's hardly a problem since NO is best used with either Mental Breakdown or LoC, and they both have long cooldowns too. I was a little worried that 10 WILL would be low, turns out it is fine. Specialized headbands are kinda cool.
(https://i.imgur.com/QylgAAr.png)
Like, really cool! Who needs high WILL when you can just get a 40% multiplier out of nowhere.
(https://i.imgur.com/TO8ntgu.png)
To be fair, the final boss has quite a high INT score, so that number is clearly higher than the typical NO. Still enough to one shot most of the bosses, or nuke packs with LoC.
Final notes:
This build is not completely beginner friendly because of the 3 CON, but it is only a slight issue at the very start of the game. After that the only real problem is the usual one with AR: it gets kinda boring. Still way better than the standard tin can AR in that regard, with stealth and TC to spice up things. The build could probably be optimized a little bit to include Temporal Manipulation, for Stasis and Acceleration, but I'm not even sure it would feel stronger.
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Was it flawless?
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In my opinion there's no such thing as a flawless build in underrail, I guess that's why I like the game so much.
This build is on the glass canon side of things, with all the problems that come with it. It is not as fragile as a Survival Instinct character wearing rathoud leather, but mistakes can get you killed quite fast. For reference, I ended up with 320 HP. The armor offers excellent protection against non sniper bullets, but nothing else.
Also, I found Pseudo Spatial Projection very reliable, but I still got one shot through it a few times. Happened twice with natives and once with a protectorate sniper. The sniper was my bad though, I got overconfident and turned off my shield...
And as I said, begining is a bit rough, especially without meta knowledge. I bypassed most of depot A with stealth and hacking, fighting my way through it would have been a painful experience for sure.
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Oh no, I didn't mean the build; was rather asking about the playthrough. Was curious if you died at all, and if you did - how you died, ect.
Yes, the mirror images aren't perfect defence and on a similar note - I am not a big fan of tactical vests. They can't even protect you well versus 9mm ARs. There are some great Expedition leathers which can provide excellent protection, however. The crafting perk for leathers can give you melee immunity with just two pieces of a set together with something like 65 % physical resistance. Not shabby at all.
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Oh well, I'm not the overly careful type of player, so I did die quite a few times. But most of the deaths can be summed up as "I fucked up". The run was extremely smooth overall, but here are some issues I can remember.
Magnar was probably the most annoying fight, because of his evasion. My NO only hit him for about 1800 damage, then I had to pray for PSP to block everything while I tried to finish him with 20% accuracy bursts. And he has a lot of friends. I could have cheesed the fight with a smoke bomb, but I try never to use them.
I had a few deaths in the Fetid March because I was sneaking past everything and bumped into a crab once or twice. No recovery from engaging 10 wyrms while wearing stealth gear.
I also died several time cleaning the goliathus colony in deep caverns. That's one of the few spot where you can't just yolo in and expect things to go smoothly (not with that build, I remember my Laser character having a blast there)
I died two or three time during Nevil's quest, because I forgot to bring W2C ammo... I had to kill a bunch of industrial bots with standard ammo.
On the other hand, a few things went great. I could one burst locust hives, then use NO to one shot all the locusts that appeared, in a single turn. I could reliably take two hives in one turn with only a few surviving locusts. I did the foundry fight a little late, and it was a slaughter, I had time to repair my rifle between waves.
On gear: the expedition leathers are nice, but heavy. In most cases I feel like mobility offers a better protection against melee, on top of making it easier to break line of sight. I had 56 MP, and I really liked having mobility on an AR build. You need to be close to single target burst, and far to spread the bullets on a group, being able to move is great. And of course, tact vest comes with a bonus to psi, which was the main reason I picked it.
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I wouldn't use heavier gear all the time. Rather put it on for specific fights because you can become immune to melee with some of them. That's not worrying at all about how much damage you will take. Yes - Balor will hit you for 0 on a 3 Con psicher :D.
I see no problem in using Vanishing Powder Grenade. You can't use them all the time, plus they aren't reliable as I've observed them not putting a character into stealth. For the Magnar fight in specific I think you can use your stealth to remove the few guard before the corridor and then just rig it with bear traps and gas 'nades. Then your NO will one shot him.
You can do something similar for the Goliathus beetles - make a field of toxic gas and watch them go down.
No EMP3 for Nevil :)? With a decent Infused Hopper Leather and Tabbis you can run to gates and catch individual groups before they even come in the main room. You don't have Grenadier so you probably won't be able to save him, but you won't have great problems, either. Them Nagas you one shot are a good source of SS.
I generally avoid the Marsh, tbh. I don't much like the area and I don't consider there being something that worthwhile to go through all the fodder. Abandoned Waterways is much better for the loot.
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The "problem" with Vanishing Powder is that it makes all enemies lose sight of you when it is used, whether or not re-stealthing is successful. If you are standing in their line of sight, they will re-detect quickly most of the time, and the fight will keep going. But if you cut line of sight or run far enough before using the grenade, then combat will end even if stealth was on cooldown. It is rather easy to use this to prematurely end any fight after alpha strike, and to exploit zone transitions. The only time I used it in that playthrough was in the native temple, to exit combat mode before the high priest could see me and summon the damn wyrms.
Balor did 0 damage to me indeed, since he could not reach me :) As I said, against melee, running beats armor almost every time. But I think those heavy leathers would be very nice against crawlers, and probably make spider nests even easier.
And I went to the marsh because I always try to do everything and go everywhere, to get a good feel for the build. Plus, it has a bunch of unique oddities, and I like having my oddity panel filled. Actually, I got 100% oddity for the first time on this character.
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Slowly reviewing and researching build for my guide. I think this is an excellent build! I'm going to recommend this to as a first build for new players over the old tin can AR but with the following changes:
Removed Power management as its benefit is minimal and replaced it with Iron Will. Resolve is already high but once you have it at level 30 you can pretty much tank Neural Overload and Bilocation from NPC. Another alternative to Iron Will would be Ambush for help dealing w/ high evasion enemies; although it's not going to help you against Magnar since there's no dark spot available. Gun Nut/Psycho-temporal acceleration/Blindsiding/Fight response are also viable choices for this last feat slot.
Keeping Hacking because INT is high, increase effective value to threshold.
Removed Lockpicking due to 3 DEX <- this is a personal preference to save skill point, optional change
Increase effective pickpocketing to 32 with eel sandwich for All-In, optional change
Increase e.chemistry to 69 for MKIV grenades
Increase e.bio for supersoldier drugs
Increase Temporal to 70 for haste + stasis <- imho the most important change as Stasis is a good panic button
Decrease e.merchantile to 105 to unlock all vendor special merchandise tiers.
https://underrail.info/build/?HgcDAwMNCgfCoF8AAAAAwp9UACAAZG4xV1rCoAAARgAAVCtPJCY7KhVKwrxJISxlBWbCtcK7wqfCncKewq7in6IC4qeqA-KntArfvw
I think a sturdy black cloth psi beetle tact vest is perfectly fine as the goal of the build isn't to tank. Early game even on dominating can be done with liberal use of bear traps, caltrops, and grenades. I added a link to this post to my Steam In-depth FAQ. Good work Koveras!
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Hey! Glad that you like the build. And thanks, I'm still using your guide after about 1000 hours...
After re-thinking about it, I agree that this should be a nice beginner build. Most of my problems came from playing Dominating/oddity. Magnar, for example, would die in one Neural Overload combo on hard or below.
And yes, adding Temporal Manipulation should make the build better. I was perfectly fine without, but having it can't be a bad thing. Just a little oversight when you tinkered the build: I picked Psycho-Neural Optimisation (mostly for testing, it was hardly useful), you should replace it with one of the other feats you recommended, since it won't work anymore.
Also, I'm physically incapable of leaving a locked container behind me (I might suffer from Al-Phabet syndrome), so I won't comment on not taking lockpicking ^^
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Yes that was an oversight, fixed:
https://underrail.info/build/?HgcDAwMNCgfCoF8AAAAAwp9UACAAZG4xV1rCoAAARgAAVCtPJCY7KhVKLEkhZQVmAsK1wrvCp8Kdwp7CruKfogLip6oD4qe0Ct-_
Yeah you can totally take all skill points from pickpocketing + some points from stealth to reach lockpicking threshold. It's just with 3 DEX you are not really getting the best bang for your buck. :)
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This looks like a very fun build! May I know the stats distribution (for lvl 4, 8 etc...) and which feats to prioritize when leveling up? This is my 2nd walkthrough but I still consider myself new to builds management.
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The feats are already ordered by level in the underrail.info page, just look at the bottom left.
For stats, you're going to want to get your target strength from the start, since you won't be able to wield an assault rifle without it (though maybe you can start at 5-6 and wait until level 4). After that, be sure to look at the stat requirements of your feats, to make sure that you'll have the right stats by the level you'll take them. If you start with 7 Will and have to take Psycho-neural optimization at level 12, be sure to raise it by then.
I'd probably go with 7 Strength, 10 Perception, 7 Will, 7 Intelligence (3 for the others) at level 1, raise Will to 10 by level 12 (it can also wait until level 16 for Locus of Control), then go full Perception after that. You can't really start with low Intelligence if you want Premeditation early.
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It's always a bit hard to give a roadmap for a build, it really depends on how you like to play. It also depends on the component you find. No point pushing Mechanics if you can't find a good assault rifle frame. But I'll try to give some useful generic rules, and an example of what I think is a proper order.
General idea:
There are two sides to the build: assault rifle and psi. Overall you want to start playing as a pure gunner and progressively add psi. In particular, it is useless to take the pill at level 1, neural overload is really weak early on. Better wait level 4-5 when frighten and mental breakdown become available.
Base stats:
start: 7 STR, 3 DEX, 3 AGI, 3 CON, 10 PER, 7 WILL, 7 INT
Then you need to put 3 points into PER and 3 points into WILL during level up. You need to have at 10 WILL at level 16 so you can pick Locus of Control (the feat is extremely strong, we absolutely don't want to delay it). So you have to pick 1 PER and 3 WILL before level 16, then 2 PER at level 20 and 24. I feel like the best choice is to pick PER at level 4, then WILL at level 8, 12, 16, then PER at level 20, 24.
Another noteworthy point: 15 PER is a lot for an assault rifle build. I did it to compensate the absence of critical, and because I played on dominating. If you play in a lower difficulty, you should be totally fine transferring one or two points from PER to CON. This build doesn't need the extra HP, but it would give you some error margin during the fights.
Skills:
Just a few rules:
- max Guns and Stealth every level
- max Thought Control from level 4
- invest in Temporal Manipulation when you have access to Psycho-temporal Contraction / Stasis
- raise throwing until you are comfortable with your grenades accuracy
- raise electronics early to craft a taser (and do that on every build, btw ^^)
- crafting skills: Mechanics is the most important (rifle), then electronics (shield and headband), then tailoring (tact vest and footwear)
- specialization: Commando, then Concentrated Fire, then Full Auto
Build order:
I used Destroyor's modified build as a basis. I delayed investment in Mercantile compared to what I did, which should be fine unless you play on dominating. Once again, you should feel free to modify it to match your preferences. As long as you max Guns / TC, which you should be doing, you will meet the skill requirement for the feats.
level 1 (https://underrail.info/build/?AQcDAwMKBwcPDwAAAAAPDwAPAAcPDwAIAAAAAAAAAE8k378) : no psi yet, wait for level 4; push effective chemistry to 20 at level 2 for Molotov crafting
level 4 (https://underrail.info/build/?BAcDAwMLBwceHgAAAAAeHgAWAA4eEAAIHgAAAAAAAE8kJjsr378) : max TC from there, only using it for control at this point ; Suppressive Fire / Opportunist combo makes bursts slightly better
level 8 (https://underrail.info/build/?CAcDAwMLCAcyMgAAAAAyMgAgADIeHgAIMgAAAAAAAE8kJjsrFSrfvw) : 60 hacking for depot A turrets ; enough mechanics to craft a decent AR (try to get a Muzzle Brake) ; Full Auto makes burst significantly stronger at this point
level 12 (https://underrail.info/build/?DAcDAwMMCAdGRgAAAABGMgAgADweHgAIRgAARgAAAE8kJjsrFSpKLN-_) : put a lot of point in Temporal Manipulation to get to Stasis threshold as soon as possible ; Concentrated Fire makes single target burst deadly at close range ; try getting a rapid reloader as soon as possible
level 16 (https://underrail.info/build/?EAcDAwMLCgdaRgAAAABaMgAgAFoeHgAIWgAARgAARk8kJjsrFSpKLEkh4qeqAd-_) : push mercantile to start looking at the good stuff of the merchants that should now be available ; with Commando the dps starts being ridiculous
level 20 (https://underrail.info/build/?FAcDAwMMCgduXwAAAABuMgAgAGRRHgAIbgAARgAAVE8kJjsrFSpKLEkhZQXip6oD4qe0At-_) : push crafting skills to make nice things ; Neural Overload is now fully effective (Mania + LoC) ; specialization into Concentrated Fire significantly increases single target burst damage
level 24 (https://underrail.info/build/?GAcDAwMNCgfCgl8AAAAAwoJUACAAZFUeAEbCggAARgAAVE8kJjsrFSpKLEkhZQVmAuKnqgPip7QG378) : the build is pretty much finished, the last few feats can be safely exchanged according to personal preferences
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Koveras got the progression down nicely. I already said this on my Steam guide but I'll repeat it here: I'll try to squeeze an update re: build this weekend.
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OH wow thank you so much!
I totally missed the bottom left on the build page, my bad.
I can't wait to try it out!
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Interesting build but why 7 int? No feats you chose require it and you do not get an extra innervation slot out of it. Is it just to shave off some skil points from int related skills? If you shave off one point from int to will you should be able to get LoC at 14 instead of 16. You could still get 7 later at 20 or 24 if you want to.
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Oh, nice catch! In my original post I had Power Management, that is what the 7 INT was for. Not sure where else I would put this point though, the skill point gain still seems to be the best deal here. At 7 INT you can get 60 hacking at level 8, which is nice for depot A. And I would not pick Locus at level 14 anyway, because Commando becomes available at that level.
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Personally I would still keep INT 7 so you can get philosophy III using Hypercerebrix. In the grand scheme of things this STAT point could go to INT/WIL/PER and wouldn't make that much of a difference anyway.
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Well even with my suggestion you would be able to reach 7 int. The question would be if you want LoC at 14 or not.
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I'm currently level 21 and I still have not reached Core city. This build ABSOLUTELY rips everyone. My main difficulty remains fighting crawlers without tinkering but I can take a bunch just fine. Beginning was a tad harder due to the 20% penalty but I was grinning when I killed balor on the first turn (on my 1st run, I had to improvise a lot while now not so much). Right now clearing areas is a breeze and I'm loving it!
Did you craft the headband or you bought it? Its the only item I'm missing
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Hey, glad the build is working for you too! You definitely want a good headband to make Neural Overload work, and you have to craft it. Mine used the following parts: Thought Control Modulator, Stable Neural Amplifier, Magnifying Neuroscopic Filter Neural Overload. In my original post I showed a end game headband with high quality components, but a medium quality one can carry you through the whole game without any issue.
Even if you find a Universal Modulator with a higher quality, go for a TC modulator. The skill bonus will probably still be higher, and most importantly it will gives sizeable bonuses to the Stable Neural Amplifier crit damage bonus.
It's a pain to find a high quality Neuroscopic Filter, but if you find a low level one go for it. At 50 quality the damage bonus is already 22%. Ezra sometimes sell it. If RNG is against you, replace the Neuroscopic Filter with Mufflers, that would still be a solid mid game headband.
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Well even with my suggestion you would be able to reach 7 int. The question would be if you want LoC at 14 or not.
The current meta is to kill everything as fast as possible. LoC + maniac + Neural Overload is a one shot AOE will a long cooldown whereas Commando should proc every turn. At level 14 your AR out-damage LoC NO so I still think Commando is more important - so no change to the current build/feat order.
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Hey!
What do you recommend as a fifth ability besides NO, Pseudo-spatial Projection, psycho-temporal contraction and stasis?
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Mental Breakdown for double NO damage. Enrage is another good choice if there's a boss type enemy on the map.
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Started a new playthorugh with this build. It has been great so far! My only issue is that I am playing on oddity and having 0 lockpicking is making me feel like I maybe missing out on exp. Also, the GMS compound level with the bots was a bit harder because I couldn't get vents open with an omni-tool. It sure was fun to stealth doge all the bots though. I am wondering if having 0 lockpicking will cause any serious issues later on.
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Started a new playthorugh with this build. It has been great so far! My only issue is that I am playing on oddity and having 0 lockpicking is making me feel like I maybe missing out on exp. Also, the GMS compound level with the bots was a bit harder because I couldn't get vents open with an omni-tool. It sure was fun to stealth doge all the bots though. I am wondering if having 0 lockpicking will cause any serious issues later on.
You'll miss mostly some loot and some missions will be harder due to not be able to access vents and some doors, but that's it, not really a serious issue, just a little downside of the build. I don't think you'll miss a lot of oddities but i have no reference for that.
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I generally explore maps obsessively so I just hope I will still find enough oddities to level up reasonably. Just have to train myself to control the FOMO when I run into locks. Overall, I am loving this build. Never used pickpocket before, it's quite fun. I like the fact that you don't have to be in stealth to pickpocket from friendlies. It's much more realistic than some other games imo.
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In my original build I had lockpicking, because I'm a compulsive looter. That being said, I'm confident you will not have any major issue leveling without it. Actually I think that pickpocketing will compensate the lack of lockpicking, at least in early/mid game. And if you really want some lockpicking, you can transfer skill points from throwing, tailoring, biology, stealth... The build performs really well in combat, so it is quite flexible.
Also, if you want to use vents, you can probably use a crowbar. Most vents can be opened with 8 STR if I recall correctly, so with one STR buff it should be fine (Regalia, Barbecue).
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Hi! I have been using this build as a blueprint to my own character (I dropped throwing for Persuasion for roleplaying purposes, aside from that it's almost identical) but I wanted to ask about Neural Overload and psi crit chance.
So far I'm level 13 and only use psi for CC. I haven't even learned any TM spells because of the cost. I have taken the Psychosis perk but I'm suddenly running out mana very quickly and can't CC as efficiently as I could. TC doesn't have all that many offensive spells so I had a few questions:
1) Can I drop psychosis for Tranquility and drop this tree entirely or does Neural Overload become insanelly good after a threshold? I like having more spells to cast but it may be because I'm being short sighted at the moment.
2) Does psi crit chance do anything for non combat spells (fear, enrage, etc) or does it only affect the damage of combat spells?
3) What are the must have spells that I should always innervate (I have frighten, mental breakdown, enrage, neural overload and bilocation)? I always try to start with enrage and bilocation but non of the enemies are aggroed by bilocation. I want to keep frighten, mental breakdown, enrage and 2 other spots (already 70 in TM so I was going for some time psi abilities) in temporal manipulation.
Thanks
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Short answers:
1) You can drop Neural Overload and the associated feats, AR damage is more than enough.
2) Psi crit does nothing for non damaging spells.
3) Must have psi abilities are Pseudo Spatial Projection, NO (if you for it), Mental Breakdown, Psycho-temporal Contraction and Stasis.
Now I'll just elaborate a little on how and why I used NO, but once again: dropping it for lower psi costs and more utility feats is perfectly reasonable.
NO is an extremely high damage spell in late game, as shown in my original post. But to be good it has to crit, and it is not possible to get crit chance high enough in that hybrid build. That's why I picked Psionic Mania, and only ever use NO after Mania. Psychosis is taken as a prerequisite for Mania, the feat in itself is indeed a net loss.
My experience is that the extra cost is okay, because the fights are short anyway. As I progressed through the game I used less and less CCs, it was faster and more reliable to just kill everything. Typically the first turn would be:
Premeditation -> LoC -> Mania -> NO -> Burst -> Burst -> Burst
Not many groups of enemies can survive that.
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Short answers:
1) You can drop Neural Overload and the associated feats, AR damage is more than enough.
2) Psi crit does nothing for non damaging spells.
3) Must have psi abilities are Pseudo Spatial Projection, NO (if you for it), Mental Breakdown, Psycho-temporal Contraction and Stasis.
Now I'll just elaborate a little on how and why I used NO, but once again: dropping it for lower psi costs and more utility feats is perfectly reasonable.
NO is an extremely high damage spell in late game, as shown in my original post. But to be good it has to crit, and it is not possible to get crit chance high enough in that hybrid build. That's why I picked Psionic Mania, and only ever use NO after Mania. Psychosis is taken as a prerequisite for Mania, the feat in itself is indeed a net loss.
My experience is that the extra cost is okay, because the fights are short anyway. As I progressed through the game I used less and less CCs, it was faster and more reliable to just kill everything. Typically the first turn would be:
Premeditation -> LoC -> Mania -> NO -> Burst -> Burst -> Burst
Not many groups of enemies can survive that.
That sounds right up my alley, thank you very much for the strategy! right now I always started stealthed, approached an enemy, initiated combat, got a first burst, stunned the one I got close to with the tazer and threw a grenade or used adrenaline for the extra bursts.
Also, any good strategy for fighting crawlers? So far I could out-stealth them and initiate combat or throw pre-emptive molotov cocktails but I just wanted to know if this build had an anti-crawler strat.
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This build does have tools to deal with crawlers:
- Locus of Control makes you stun immune; it can even be used when stunned to break it.
- Pseudo Spatial Projection can be cast in advance, when entering an area with crawlers, causing them to miss their opening attack (most of the time).
- I played without Temporal Manipulation, but since you got it: Stasis is amazing against crawlers. Just run in the middle of the area and Stasis yourself to bait the crawlers. When Stasis end you'll have a pack of crawlers around you, and you can burst them or nuke them with Neural Overload.