Messages

1

General / Re: To late to ask for features?

« on: December 16, 2014, 09:25:50 pm »

This got a lot more attention then I was expecting, thanks everyone for the the reply's. Also to Styg and crew, thanks for the good work you've put into the current product.

As an aside, since you seem to have read this. I am holding off on another play through until feature complete alpha or beta and will run it again with a few builds to near cap/end game for another balance feed back thread. I think I will have some free time in early/mid summer which seems to coincide with your "final early access release" mentioned in the recent Dev Log #36. That said if you need community members to product test under NDA I would happily volunteer some of my time. Cheers.

2

General / To late to ask for features?

« on: December 15, 2014, 12:37:19 pm »

If so then feel free to shoot me down, I have a thick skin. If not, then a companion/pet to fill in where you are weak.


Examples;
A sensor/EOD/black ops non combat drone. ("Run away little fella, I'm gonna to need you later to find out why these guys were willing to die, to keep me away from that safe.")

A piecemeal salvaged turret bot. (Immune to poison, good at wasting ammo, but its got your back.)

An armored Rathound or Railwolf complete with doggie backpack. (Can smell explosives, carry gear, and chew faces off. What is not to love about mans best post apocalyptic buddy?)

A Robo-Wastehound. (Just as good as a regular waste hound but you don't have to feel as bad when fido catches hot sniper lead with his face.)



Should be mortal and require significant investment for both stat points and currency to be effective. I know this is a tall order, but this would allow for challenges to be more demanding to specific access difficulty skills. Also would allow for viability of a greater range of non-conventional builds, with no need for investment of dev time to create lore behind them, you have the models and mechanics needed already, you would just have to adapt them for players to interact with them in a new way.

I wont hold my breath, but it would still be neat to see.

3

General / Re: Excellent. Takes me back to fallout

« on: November 26, 2014, 07:40:59 pm »

Actually just plugged this game on the fallout Reddit.

http://www.reddit.com/r/Fallout/comments/2nadkh/guys_if_you_like_fallout_12_you_have_to_check_out/

4

General / Re: Beta

« on: November 18, 2014, 09:41:45 am »

I keep checking in on this project about once a month, I am glad to see it moving but still cant bring myself to play the current content for another run. Alpha or not this game does some interesting things with the overhead isometric RPG that could have benefited by other recent games in the genera, should they have payed attention. Keep up the great work guys, don't let our impatience force you to make compromises.

5

General / Re: Balancing access, survival, and compensating rewards for specialization

« on: March 02, 2014, 04:14:28 am »

I'm a little sad that no one else wants to have a conversation about this.

6

General / Re: Balancing access, survival, and compensating rewards for specialization

« on: February 27, 2014, 09:13:45 pm »

I to share that distaste for leaving things behind. I will do it, if I must... and I must all to often if I don't have investments in the "subterfuge core." (There is also the issue with mines)

Again going back to the fallout comparison. You can gain access to hacking and lock picking off speced. To go a step further if you start with 9 int and take the educated perk at level 4 you can be perfect in most skills before lvl 22. With Underrail's stat system its not possible. With Fallout, base stats represent starting scores, with Underrail they represent max potential for skill points invested there is no ideal cap to shoot for if all you want is access to extra loot.

That's not to say it's a bad thing in fact quite the contrary, but its certainly a less forgiving.


As for the oddity system, I like it. It allows for re-spawning mobs and enemies, in a more meaningful way with the added bonus of keeping people from grinding to lower the challenge of the games content. It also serves as a great incentive for exploration. That said I wish information via word of mouth was also an oddity. It would serve as a great incentive for both persuasion and intimidation.

7

General / Re: Balancing access, survival, and compensating rewards for specialization

« on: February 27, 2014, 06:09:18 pm »

That't true El, in a normal game without the oddities system. With the oddities system expect to potentially miss experience in locked chests (replay it, there are at lest 4 instances where exp is hidden behind a locked door or chest.)

Also that's a fair build. One of my play through was pretty much that with out Metathermics. But its still at least mostly the subterfuge core.

When I say "Subterfuge core" I don't even include the stealth skill, it synergies well mind you but it's the core skills of-

Dex (+5) -Minimum level to get bonus per level for LP (Crit chance, AP reduction, used in a lot of feats)
Agi  (+7) -Minimum for most agi checks I have come across. (Stealth, Dodge, Evade)
Per  (+7) -Minimum for most hidden object checks and mines. This stat I would venture a guess is usually higher. (Guns, Crossbows)
Int (+5) -Minimum level to get bonus per level for Hacking
With the skills Lockpicking and Hacking


That's what I mean by the subterfuge core. There is no place to get this data but I would venture a guess that most people playing this game have invested in most if not all of this core, because lets face it if you don't have most of it, if not all of it. the game is much harder. Harder because you are leaving a fair bit of loot and EXP behind that should be used to restock your character, for the next set of challenges or get him to the next level reducing the threat of enemies by way reducing the average cost per kill. Harder because with out this core you will step on every mine and have to face every enemy on their terms, or simply take the long way around. (In the case of the junk yard.) You have to see where I'm coming from on this, or at a minimum acknowledge that you have a bias in favor for the core of stats as it exists.

Again I would rather see non-optimal alternatives to these same checks so were not forced to play a certain way, as it makes for a much more boring world.

8

General / Re: Balancing access, survival, and compensating rewards for specialization

« on: February 27, 2014, 06:02:29 am »

I'll even go a step further to elaborate.

If it were truly about access to content not being available in one go you would have frequent skill and stat checks that no one player could hope to do. for example a Agility check a Metathermics check with a Mechanics check in line all to get in the same room. Only a very specific build could pass all 3 checks. Then across the hall you would have another room with specifically a Strength check a Dexterity check and a Chemistry check.

If your build had managed to meet the requirements of one its very unlikely, mind you not impossible to have done both.

 Where as if you had a series of rooms that all had stat checks that worked well together i.e. the standard subterfuge build. (Dex, Agi, Per, Hacking, Lockpicking, Stealth) To get into the same series of rooms a lot more commonly builds could pass it. I think that argument is kind of crap, and shows a bit of a hole in the mentality of the level design and the way skills interact with the world.




I feel I should clarify, I don't want absurd checks, Just non-optimal alternatives to the subterfuge core. Again assuming you are one man versus the world and that team members will at no point be a factor.


Edit: Thought I should add that Fallout can get away with two skill that specifically serve this function. All skills are capped at 100 and you can max them out even with a non optimal starting Special configuration, due to special only dictating starting stats. Instead of the escalating system that Underrail has where stats dictate skill max potential for the points invested. I actually like the UR system better, but it needs to be addressed early before a very small subset of skills and associated stats become unavoidable if you don't want to leave a good portion of the game unlooted/unexplored.

9

General / Re: Balancing access, survival, and compensating rewards for specialization

« on: February 27, 2014, 05:11:21 am »

Your kind of aiding my case here, you like subterfuge. that's cool that you like subterfuge. I like subterfuge characters. 3 of my play through have been a subterfuge build. Two were to see how the other half lived, plus check out the crafting and psi... Cause' you kind of have to forgo those if you want to access all the games content/loot.

Now if you don't like playing subterfuge, or you are trying to play out side the box expect a much harder time with this game with a lot of loot and experience simply unobtainable/ unavailable because you didn't want to play with an almost mandatory core of stats and skills.

If this is how it is, so be it. I'll build my toon to fit the game as needed. However it would be nice to have non-optimal alternatives to the quick and quiet subterfuge route. That's what I'm getting at.

10

General / Re: Balancing access, survival, and compensating rewards for specialization

« on: February 27, 2014, 03:14:30 am »

I would argue the need for resource management. Be it carry weight, Psi, Health, calories, water.... What have you, make the world feel intrinsic, where decisions (and negligence) have consequence. This is a good thing. There are far to few games that force you to think, manage and optimize for a greater margin of success. This is a niche product, I say let that niche be hardcore if that is the dev's vision for the game.

I would then like to state that in a game where experience lies in exploration with the oddities system, there needs to be non-optimal alternatives for characters that are not built around an ideal subset. Specifically Hacking, Lockpicking, and Perception. To a lesser extent Agility.



If you choose to play a bad ass bruiser with a mental deficiency and lust for credits, who is raiding a compound on orders from the SGS. Do you think a decrepit door or lock is going to stop him from getting what he wants?

Perhaps you self identify as more master of Psi who also is a incredibly skilled craftsman, do you think him incapable of finding an alternative solution?


This is what I'm getting at, there are a few skills that you need in order to not miss a fair bit of content, and ultimately experience in this game. I have played through with no subterfuge skills mind you, it is possible. Just less then ideal. On that note I have played all this games content to completion 5 times now, over 2 builds. Each time I get this nagging impression that there are gaps in the way the game plays. I don't like the feeling of being forced down a specific path to explore the game fully. Again in this case specifically a subterfuge based character.




On a side note Avadon: The Black Fortress while good does not have as diverse a skill set as Underrail even as it is now. Especially If they flesh out their content, this has the potential to be the far superior representation of the genera, challenging Baulders Gate or Fallout. (Yes those game's are 15+ years old) That is also with Wasteland 2 on the horizon, which I see as this games primary competition.

11

General / Balancing access, survival, and compensating rewards for specialization

« on: February 25, 2014, 09:00:13 pm »

In the light of new content, I decided to do another round of play through with two starting builds I found encompassed most of what the game offers, taking into consideration what I learned the last time I played.

The builds following, were my starting stats for later reference as well as an abridged synopsis of how they weathered the games challenges.

"Psi Tank v.2"
Base
S- 8
D- 3
A- 3
C- 6
P- 3
W- 10
I- 7

Skill
Melee, Hacking, Mechanics, Electronics, Tailoring, Thought Control, Psychokinesis, Mercantile

Synopsis
-Awful in the early game, even with the reliable lvl 1 access to a hammer when purchased from the armory, I don't know if I would have stuck with it if I didn't have fore knowledge there was a Metal Armor shaped light at the end of a long tunnel. Really had to stretch my options to get through the GMS compound. Solid Single Target, and AoE damage. Some CC. Predictable health loss once the stars align to to see fit to actually give you at level components to craft the gear this build demands. Have to leave a lot of lockers and doors and vents shut, will step on every mine, will never find a hidden... anything. Will rarely have the option to start a fight manually unless you know it's coming before hand.

"Commando v.2"
Base
S- 6
D- 5
A- 7
C- 5
P- 10
W- 3
I- 4

Skill
Guns, Melee, Dodge, Evasion, Stealth, Hacking, Lock picking, Mercantile

Synopsis
I kind of feel a similar build to this is almost forced on you (I'll get into that in more detail below.) Easy in the early game, absurd single target damage in the late game. Hard to keep in ammo, No real AoE or CC. That makes some fights harder then they should be, mitigated of course by stealth and smart positioning. Relegated to the gear that you find or pops up at vendors, but that is less of a hindrance then with the psi tank. No door, lock or obstruction will do more then slow you down. (You may have to come back later)



With that out of the way, on to the meat an potato's of why I'm posting. There seems to be something... well from where I sit it could be two things, or a list of many things on the not yet implemented... I'm not a Dev or even a regular part of the community. Also I feel I should clarify, that I am not trolling for behind the scenes stuff (always welcome if volunteered) just making my opinion on known on what feels like gaping wounds in game play.

Anyway. I said before, two things. First, party system that would allow you to optimize a set of player characters with synergy to mitigate the individuals short comings. this would require a rework of almost all game elements... So I don't think its coming, especially not soon. Second, which I believe to be the more reasonable. The ability to circumvent optimized specialization through the use of tools or psi abilities. An example of the latter already exists with the crowbar on vents.

I have some Ideas I will list in bullet format take them, leave them, or ignore me for being so presumptuous.

EX: Example Game Element (Guiding Skill- Base Stat)
- Eame Element - Base Stat or Guiding Skill - Tool - Drawback

Locks Doors and Chests, Vents (Lockpick- Dex)
- Doors- STR- Hammer- The stronger the door the longer it takes the louder it is and the more it decays your hammer. The door cant be shut again
- Doors- Mechanics- Tool box- Tool boxes are heavy and make a lot of noise. (Perhaps carrying one should drop your sneak?)
- Doors- Chemistry- Demolitions Charge- Rare, Loud.
- Doors- Metathermics - "New Psi ability" - Psi intensive, time consuming. (push ice in the lock, heat the lock to swell the metal, cool it off again to create a gap. Open door)
- Chests- STR- Crowbar- Chance to break Crowbar. Injure self. loud.
- Chests- STR- Hammer- Time consuming, decays Hammer. chance to break or damage whats inside. Loud
- Chests- Mechanics- Tool box-  Tool boxes are heavy and make a lot of noise.
- Chests- Chemistry- Demolitions Charge- Rare, Loud.
- Chests- Biology- Concentrated Burrower Acid- Doesn't work on all locks, have to make it yourself.
- Chests- Metathermics - "New Psi ability" - Psi intensive, time consuming. (push ice in the lock, heat the lock to swell the metal, cool it off to create a gap. Open door)


Hacking Doors, Chests, Special Circumstance (Hacking- Int)
- For the purpose of saving room refer above for doors and locks, they can pretty much carry over on a case to case basis. I just put it here to show it wasn't forgotten,
- Special Circumstance- Thought Control- Mind Machine remote interface - Psi intensive alternative


Hidden object (Perception/ trap)
- Doors - Thought Control - "new psi skill" - +5 perception lasts x amount of turns based on skill.
- Traps - Psychokinesis - "new psi skill" - Duration and area of effect based on skill. (You could also allow us to use ranged attacks to disarm them.)

Obstruction - Vaulting Over (Agi)
- Obstruction- Psychokinesis- Force Jump- perhaps give this a limit to weight based on skill.

Obstruction - Clearing out of the way (Str)
- Obstruction- Mechanics/ int - Leverage/ block and tackle- Weight in inventory
- Obstruction- Psychokinesis- Force Push- ... Bison is doing it.


Merchants (Int)
- I'm going to leave bullet format now, and just say that the mercantile almost seems to be working against you if your goal is clearing your inventory. So much for selling ice to Eskimo's I cant even sell surplus guns to an arms dealer.

I ended up scraping a LOT of of valuable gear and throwing away a lot of organs and crowbars that could have other wise been used to fund crafting or inflate my stockpiles, because I was over encumbered. I feel there should almost be a whole sale/ general goods vendor that has a lot of credits and gives very little of the items value for those not skilled in mercantile. As an example if the armorer would give you 60% of the items value the whole sale vendor would give 30% and not have any thing to trade except coins or credits. The advantage being he will always buy every item type in exchange for a reduced amount in raw currency.

Crafting Bonus (Int)
- If you are going out of your way for crafting every point you are spending on being better at your craft is another point that is not being spent on utility or situation based combat applicability. If you look at the Elder scrolls they take this into account with Smiting, Enchanting and Alchemy. As in they give you bonuses that you other wise would have to forgo with out the expertise to apply it to your self.

As an example you could make Metal armor "well fit" giving it slightly more DT or resistance. You could use electronics to add servo's that allow the suit to be powered granting movement AP and bonus melee damage or stabilization for improved ranged accuracy... Chemistry to deconstruct grenades to their base components and put them back together representative of your skill. A stronger adrenaline with less drawback, precision optimized gun's granting an extra shot with a burst or more accuracy... The list can go on for a while but I think my point is made. Crafting as it currently exists does not give you any thing you could not other wise find in the world. Each of them requiring a consumable to balance the bonus, and a reduction in resale value to vendors.

The points invested are effectively being carried... If not holding back combat, subterfuge, and psi skills instead of synergizing with them. Again I'm not abreast to what your development plans are but this is my take on the game and it's content as it currently is.





That's pretty much all I'm willing to write-right now, I'm interested to see if you guys see where I'm coming from or fill me in on something I'm missing. I don't think I've said it yet but Styg keep up the great work on the alpha. This is already better then Shadow Run returns and competes with FO1/2 for mechanics... Were yet to see much of a story, cant wait for that. Keep it coming and I'll keep dropping my two cents.

12

General / Re: A bit of Player Data and Pure Opinion

« on: October 11, 2013, 09:03:39 am »

Doing another play through, give me another day for part two.

13

General / Re: A bit of Player Data and Pure Opinion

« on: October 09, 2013, 02:35:26 pm »

I assume that what you mean is - it's comparable to regular attack with a sniper rifle, not to the snipe attack itself, right?

Yeah, the snipe attack amplified with Stealth is crazy damage. I'm making a comparison of the Sniper basic and Aimed Shot. Snipe is its own ball game.

14

General / Re: A bit of Player Data and Pure Opinion

« on: October 09, 2013, 02:00:17 pm »

No, it's not as strong as a sniper rifle. Even if you crit you'll never get the sniper pornographic amounts of damage but for a cheap spell it is rather high damage inducing.

I'm at work right now so It'll be a little bit until I finish what I started, with part 2. Thought I would take the time on my break to answer any questions that came up.

Yes it is comparable at level 10 to a sniper Rifle, But in the same way that a track shoe is compared to a work boot. They both cover your feet and share a set of similarities. However its the differences that make the determination as to which is better.

With a Psi helm that gives bonus to Metathermics total, Crit chance +(~6-8%) (26-28% total with Psychosis) Crit Damage +(~27-38%). It will do about 10-20 damage less at the high end but never miss, never needs to be reloaded, never needs maintenance, can be used on the run and in CQC. Im a caster as well, I'm not putting it down or belittling it just saying that its a bit out of alignment in terms of balance with other options.

Here is the biggest difference. The Guns or any other skill doesn't allow you NEAR as much versatility as what is afforded by the metathermics or any other Psi school. For one reagent, mana. You can not disagree with that, which is the point im attempting to elaborate.

15

General / Re: A bit of Player Data and Pure Opinion

« on: October 09, 2013, 11:17:32 am »

More coming, Give me a bit.