Messages

1

General / Re: Uhm, the economical and crafting sistems stil need some more loving..

« on: January 22, 2015, 11:11:05 pm »

While I understand at least where you are coming from, I still disagree totally with you. The game is NOT encouraging you to stop what you are doing to try to make money. The vendor purchase restrictions actively DISCOURAGE this. You are, of course, entitled to game the system by farming vendor inventory respawns, but I'd like you to show me a system that can't be gamed. As it is, like I said I've found this system reasonably (not perfectly) balanced - by making intelligent decisions on what to carry, I've had always enough cash for what I need, but (until near the end of the game) never too much. You say that I am playing the game wrong, but I think equally it could be said I am playing the game as intended?

I don't necessarily agree that players will always do whatever earns them the most money - this is an artifact of playing games (like Diablo and Borderlands) that encourage loot and gold grinding. Personally I loathe that gameplay model, and the fact that Underrail discourages it (but doesn't outright prevent it) is a point of charm for me.

Unlike you, it is my experience that the loot you find or craft is better than the loot you purchase, with the occasional exception. This encourages looting and exploring. When I have needed money, I have gone on exploration and looting runs. I found they were quite adequate to get me the cash I needed, when I needed it. I understand where you come from when you say that discourages replayability, but I don't agree whatsoever. I STILL play the four Fallouts just for the joy of exploration, despite literally having discovered all the content in the games. I enjoy this. I think a lot of other people do as well. Maybe Underrail would be more replayable if it had some degree of randomness in the site contents

As for how it can be balanced with the current system, we'd disagree entirely on that because I think we have different ideas on what sort of gameplay to encourage. I'd definitely have vendors carry less cash, thus encouraging more goods bartering. I feel that some vendors should also accept more unlimited classes of goods but at a massive discount, particularly components - this would encourage trading off some of those excess useless components in exchange for that one component you really want. (Or maybe a system of component transmutation. The current breakdown options aren't useful enough.)

I'd like certain types of high-value or unique loot to be found in some of the exploration sites, if only because it's nice to have that sort of reward. But I've found exploration to be both reasonably profitable and enjoyable, despite what you claim.

This however would be antithesis to you, since it further ENCOURAGES the sort of play style I've been enjoying and which you don't like. And this is the problem - when you say it is "objectively unbalanced" you mean it is OBJECTIVELY UNBALANCED FOR YOUR PLAYSTYLE. You also say that most people will play in a way that will gain them the most money. In fact, I have been playing in a way that maximises my profitability, but this comes from identifying what is and isn't a profitable activity. If you consider ferrying every bit of loot out of a dungeon a profitable activity, then by all means do it, but the game discourages it. I think MOST (obviously not all) players will identify this as having a low time cost/profit ratio, and will prioritise their behaviour accordingly.

As far as modding is concerned, I've been a extremely enthusiastic modder over the years. When Styg gets around to releasing modding tools (or maybe even the source? One can hope) I'd be more than happy then to get together with you and we can try to redesign the economy, if only to see how different the game plays.

*EDIT I repeat myself too often

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General / Re: Uhm, the economical and crafting sistems stil need some more loving..

« on: January 22, 2015, 07:29:16 am »

I agree with your distinction between subjective and objective. Your points are still, largely, subjective, because you are saying the system is BAD FOR YOU. For example:

The current system breaks game immersion

This is PURELY subjective. Evidence? I find this system, SUBJECTIVELY FOR ME, increases immersion, or at least balances practicalities of game mechanics with immersion. If it OBJECTIVELY broke immersion, then it would mean it breaks game immersion for EVERYONE. It doesn't.

That is, without recourse, a subjective argument on your behalf. That is fine, but be aware that it is a subjective argument no matter how much you say otherwise.

makes the economy system utherly impossible to balance

I do not agree with this statement.

I can see some areas for improvement with the economy, and certainly after a certain point I have accumulated a large amount of money. I can also see plenty of solutions that do not involve discarding the current system. I think part of the issue here is how we define "balanced"; you want the game balanced towards one style of play, whereas I find the game, as it stands, appeals to my personal style of play. In this sense, I will argue that there is a degree of subjectivity here in your claim as well.

A traditional "vendors purchase anything and have unlimited cash" approach would be much EASIER to balance, but I'd (subjectively) find this boring, because I enjoy the current system and the (slight) strategy involved. Also, again this is an immersion issue - for me, the concept of a merchant who will buy or barter ANYTHING is unrealistic enough to break immersion FOR ME.

wastes either player time to pick up and sell everything, or wastes developer time in all the areas that are created and are not going to be used most of the time because there is no point to it.

This is not Diablo. There are reasons for entering areas other than just collecting loot. This is something of a conflict between HOW YOU PLAY THE GAME and HOW THE GAME IS DESIGNED. For one, I DON'T PICK UP AND SELL EVERYTHING, and the greatest pleasure I have found in the game has been exploration. I loot tactically and selectively. I role play a bit. I'd actually like the system made even more strict, so that greater emphasis on strategy needs to be employed while looting. (I'm probably in a minority here though.)

I break down a lot of stuff I can't carry so that it isn't an entire waste (although I really would like more breakdown options...) I use my Player Home to store components between looting runs, and typically target specific types of components (this definitely could require expansion and balancing, true, but that is not a function of the economy per se) and I have gained immense satisfaction from the game. While the crafting and economic system are far from perfect, I absolutely disagree that it is broken or immersion-destroying, and I whole-heartedly disagree that it means there is no point to visiting areas.

On the contrary, I visit those areas because they're THERE to be discovered, and this for me is truly the charm of the game.

not being able to balance the economy because of the limitation of merchants buying stuff. You can adjust prices all you want, it's not gonna make a diffence because you'll always have enough, too much or too little money no matter if you do sidequests or explore.

EVERY game economy can be gamed. As it is, I only started gaining too much cash near the end of the new content.

For most of the game, I've had more or less just enough cash for important things, have crafted some things to fill in the gaps, and when I've really wanted a big ticket item, I've gone out, explored a lot of the out-of-the-way content and looted and traded intelligently until I could afford it. (For example, there was one particular quest where I required a very substantial amount of cash. There are various ways of getting that cash. I looted abandoned places and robbed bandits for it, and rather enjoyed the experience.) This sounds to me very close to the ideal balanced economic system you described. It isn't perfect, but it is not unbalanced to any degree that can't be fixed with tweaks. I think it is absolutely workable.

It seems to me that your problem is that the current system DISINCENTIVISES loot grinding, and you want loot grinding. I loathe loot grinding (and level grinding). Subjectively speaking, I think the current system WORKS because it discourages loot grinding, without outright preventing the player from doing it if they wish (or need) to.


The very fact that I have not had the same problems as you, and in fact have almost entirely had THE OPPOSITE EXPERIENCE from you, suggests that:

1)  We have very different styles of playing, and
2)  The game is balanced more towards one style than another, which means
3)  All of your arguments are based around YOUR STYLE OF PLAY (including your unsupported argument that the system is impossible to balance),
4)  Which makes your arguments subjective.

I am sorry, but that is what subjective means. If you say "This OBJECTIVELY DOESN'T WORK AND IS IMMERSION BREAKING" and I say "But it works for me and I find it immersive" and then your statement is subjective, not objective.

Feel free to make your arguments based on how you feel the game should play, but don't try saying it is OBJECTIVELY anything when it is in fact based precisely on how you feel a game should play.

It is my personal opinion that the current system

i)   is workable (and does in fact work for me rather well)
ii)  is potentially enjoyable (because I actually enjoy it), and
iii) should remain in the game, although I accept
iv) it still needs tweaking.

Like your opinion, this is purely subjective, for what it is worth.

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General / Re: Uhm, the economical and crafting sistems stil need some more loving..

« on: January 22, 2015, 12:04:29 am »

Elhazzared, I don't think "objectively"  means what you think it means.  The very fact that we are able to argue over the economic system suggests it isn't objectively bad at all.  It is self-evidently a subjective issue. Personally I think the current system is workable - I've had virtually none of the problems you've had,or at least not to the extent you've had them. Furthermore it is a point of distinction with other RPGs. I think one of the points of contention  you seem to hold -  that it is different from your favourite RPGs -  is actually a selling point of the system. The "wasting time"  issue is an artifact of how YOU are playing the game. I've not had this problem myself, and I've progressed much further in the game than you.


Debate is useful, but you'll need to do better than claiming the system is "objectively" bad based on your subjective opinion.

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General / Re: Uhm, the economical and crafting sistems stil need some more loving..

« on: January 21, 2015, 12:34:35 pm »

I'm sorry Elhazzared, but I'm of almost the opposite opinion to you. I'm a significant way through my second "full" playthrough (the first was an earlier build), and while I feel the crafting definitely needs some tweaking, I absolutely have to disagree with your views on the economy and carrying capacity.

Part of the joy for me is being forced to make difficult decisions about loot - what do I keep and what do I leave? What is more likely to sell? To me, this is the ESSENCE of RPGs - role-playing. Not looting, but instead trying to make decisions for my character. Loot is good, but there are plenty of other reasons for exploring a game world.

Completely removing the vendor restrictions or carrying capacity would destroy this aspect of the game. Anyway, all this excess stuff requires storage - it provides an incentive for me to use my Player Home. (Incidentally, more Player Homes, possibly upgradable or with unique attributes, would provide an excellent gold sink...)

That's not to say I don't feel the system needs tweaking. I just also think removing the carrying and vendor restrictions is a case of "throwing the baby out blah blah".

5

Suggestions / Re: A "Flag as Junk" button would solve some minor sorting irritations

« on: January 17, 2015, 02:32:32 pm »

Actually that is a far better idea.

I had read the devlog, so I didn't figure anything would come of a suggestion this late, but as you say it is always good to discuss game design.

6

Suggestions / A "Flag as Junk" button would solve some minor sorting irritations

« on: January 17, 2015, 08:27:03 am »

Good afternoon. I have been enjoying this game for quite a while now. The improvement on the very early versions is spectacular, to say the least. I do have one very minor issue which has remained since the earlier builds. I have only had a quick glance through the forum, so this may have been mentioned in the past (in fact, it almost definitely has) but I couldn't see it anywhere.

One of the few annoyances which still remains is the inability to flag equipment as junk. When I have collected, say five or six Hawkers or Zephyrs, I'll compare the items. The best item I'll keep, and the remainder I'll take to trade.

The problem is that there is no easy way to tell which item is which. With guns I'll unload all the guns I plan on selling, but with items like armor or crossbows, once they're in the inventory I need to painstakingly compare each item with all the others in their class to work out which one is the item I planned on keeping. When you're changing weapons in the middle of combat this can be particularly irritating to have to go through five crossbows to work out which was the one you wanted to use. My habit is to leave the first four or five inventory slots for the weapons I'm keeping, but that's only useful if you don't hit "sort".

My suggestion is a way of Flagging items so they don't appear in your inventory when it is filtered (eg if I selected "Weapons" on the filter, it would only show unflagged weapons).

Obviously this is hardly a game breaker, but it is a (relatively) simple solution to a (relatively) minor annoyance. Apologies if this has already been suggested and rejected for any reason.

Cheers,
Termy