Messages

151

General / Re: Uhm, the economical and crafting sistems stil need some more loving..

« on: January 20, 2015, 03:11:35 pm »

I don't use the oddity system, never liked it but hey, it's optional so no harm there!

As for finding material for crafting, still not enough reason, you don't really need crafting and if you absolutly must then merchants have enough stuff from what I hear so again, not reason to get off the beaten path. You are encouraged not to do anything of the sort because you get no tangible rewards... Maybe if you are really needing a level or two but I doubt you'll need it anyway.

152

General / Re: Uhm, the economical and crafting sistems stil need some more loving..

« on: January 20, 2015, 01:58:10 pm »

Again, If I do that then I am discouraged of doing any sidequests and exploring. Really all I need to do is the main story line as I'll already get more loot than I can sell. What incentive do I have to go on exploring or doing sidequests when I will not gain anything from it?

That is the whole point. The current system doesn't just discourages you from picking everything up. It discourages you from playing more than half the game.

153

General / Re: Uhm, the economical and crafting sistems stil need some more loving..

« on: January 20, 2015, 12:59:48 pm »

It's not my appeal to trading. People are saying that the reason for this bad economy system is because it encourages trading and trading is a part of the game. I was merely telling it was not true, the game has no trading component to it whatsoever. Glad you agree on that.

Fallout and arcanum (will only talk about the games I know) have only a small limitation, not a huge limitation that severely hampers the enjoyment of the game and make exploration and sidequests useless.

In Fallout you don't chose what you keep and what you leave behind. You just waste some time going back and forth but you don't chose.

In arcanum you don't chose too, you can carry everything with you, the weight limitation is there just cause, there are no instances that you cannot do without carrying all the loot.

Similarly, in underrail you don't need to chose to leave everything behind, nor do you have to chose to only sell a few things. You can carry everything by taking huge loads of time, this is aggravated by repawns. You can sell everything, you just have to sit around doing nothing for 45 minutes for the merchants to reload. However this is highly contrived.

The game will always have restrictions. But those shouldn't be related to inventory space or merchants buying stuff. Why? Because it completly nullifies the point of side questing and exploring. You do that for extra loot and extra money (both being directly tied together). If you say that people can barely transport anything at all because some items are absurdly heavy and can't sell everything within a reasonable timeframe. People are just going to ignore the game. Now I ask you, how much of the game is sidequests and explorable area? I'd bet over 50% So players are encouraged to ignore most of the content because of a bad decision? Is that right?

Decisions come from, what skill set are you going to use? What options you take to solve quests and side quests. What equipment do you use.

154

General / Re: Uhm, the economical and crafting sistems stil need some more loving..

« on: January 19, 2015, 04:23:11 pm »

Stealing or findng something and selling is just that, selling, not trading. By definition trading you go around, buying cheap selling high.

If we were to implement a real trade market like what you see in trading games then all merchants would buy everything at normal prices and expensive for items that they really need though I suppose it would be fair to say some items they'd have in surplus and buy at low prices too. At any rate this wouldn't fit an RPG.

I will not talk about BD series nor System shock since I didn't play them.

Fallout buys everything at the same price, the only modifier is your barter skill, not whether they need it or any such non-sense. Arcanum similarly buys everything at the same price. What changes the price is how much people like you which is affected by your beauty and possible quests made (race too depending on the place)... As a matter of fact did you ever had a problem in fallout selling loot? No, you might have had some problems carrying it, but there is no respawns so you store all loot of the area in one container and just go back and forth until all is sold (this only creates unnecessary busywork that beneficted the game in no way). As for Arcanum it's a non-issue because with all the party memebers you have you'll just be able to carry everything no matter what area you clear and in arcanum merchants don't even have money limits which makes it even better than fallout in that aspect but given how much longer after fallout it came it's only natural that they improved the formula. The carry weight is there only cause since it makes no real diference.

So as you can see, neither does underrail has a true trading system nor would it benefict the game in any way. What we are left with is a subpar economic system that still gives us too much money, doesn't encourages us to go out of the beaten path and frustates the players for not allowing them to sell their hard earned loot.

Not everything is bad of course. The early game as far as economy is concerned has improved. Even with the little I managed to tolerate of this economic system to play I could reasonably say that you get a lot more necessary starting money. But past that things are much worse than when I started playing.

Therein lies the problem. Not only does the current economic system aggravates players (yes not all of them but some right now and I imagine a vast majority when the game goes live), but it doesn't encourages you to go off the beaten path. What does that makes of the game? Well if players are not encouraged to go out of the beaten path then only a small part of the gamers will actually bother to see everything the game has to offer, that kinda makes a void where the developers spent time creating all those areas for nothing... It's exactly the same as I've always said about the GMS vault. It's a waste of time to go there! Why even design an area whose only purpose is to waste people's time? Most players are either going to go there once and never again touch it in any following playthroughs or they will read the wiki, see that tehre is nothing to be had there but a huge waste of time and they will not even go there once. This basicly means that developers wasted time doing something no one will care about.

A good game design will have players be rewarded by risk and time investment. If it's not worth it, players will ignore it and that nullifies the whole point of the developers having spent time and thus money in creating those areas.

155

General / Re: Uhm, the economical and crafting sistems stil need some more loving..

« on: January 17, 2015, 08:35:20 pm »

I respect trying and failing. But one thing is to try and fail, another thing is to try, fail and just leave it as it is just because you wanted to be different.

You are content to loot only what you know you'll be able to sell. That is a point of view.

Mine is that if you are just going to look at the loot and then go "meh, don't need it cause I can't sell it anyway" and as such ignore it, then you remove the reasons for exploration and sidequests.

Why would I go and explore or do sidequests if I cannot sell the loot? Because  make no mistake. The rewards of exploring and doing sidequests is the loot. You search the place, indiscrimatedly kill whatever crosses your path and what is your reward for all aof that? Loot.

If you suddenly say that what your reward is nothing but a waste of time because you can't sell it, then really all there is to it is follow the main storyline and don't bother with anything else. it's just pointless.

If you want to force players into chosing what they take and what they leave behnd you make a game that has no merchants at all and no monetary system. You then limit the inventory size either by space or weight and force the player to chose what he wants to keep and what he has to live without... Unfortunatly such systems do not work for RPGs. they are mostly meant for roguelikes.

156

Suggestions / Re: Speed Up the game/movement (CheatEngine)

« on: January 17, 2015, 02:52:45 pm »

Your walk speed is supposed to be that because of things like detection mechanics. You could indeed just speed the whole game but then in some cases people would complain that they get very little reaction time.

I definitly understand your point but I personaly would hate if I had less reaction time when I'm trying to sneak around.

157

Suggestions / Re: A "Flag as Junk" button would solve some minor sorting irritations

« on: January 17, 2015, 02:50:29 pm »

It might, I mean adding something to allow you to flag an item should be pretty easy and fast to implement. All it needs is an option of right click to flag and pain a small colour on the corner of that item to leave it marked.

158

Suggestions / Re: A "Flag as Junk" button would solve some minor sorting irritations

« on: January 17, 2015, 11:25:13 am »

Both ideas have their merits, but I prefer hilts for one simple reason. junk is nearly everything, precious is only a few things you want to keep. Thus it takes much less time to just makr what you want to keep ranther than mark all you want to sell.

159

General / Re: Uhm, the economical and crafting sistems stil need some more loving..

« on: January 17, 2015, 09:30:49 am »

I don't see how trading can be a big part of the game. To put things into perspective. Trading means aquire goods in one place and sell them at higher prices on another place. That is what trading really is and if Styg did that, people would get even richer with trading... An RPG is not a trading simulator, there are many games out there doing that already with varying degrees of success.

If we were to implement real trading into the game then merchants would buy everything at normal prices but they would have a specific item or two that they would buy at a much higher price, encouraging players to sell those items there instead of any other place which would mean the player would still be going between towns selling things where he would be paid more and buying things from merchants to sell to anothers for a profit.

To a degree this wouldn't be as bad of a system as the current one because at least you could get the normal price for the items you have anyway, but it would still create a pointless chore to get more more money, whether or not needed... I suppose I can say (and I say I because it's my point of view and not everyone else) that underrail currently is suffering from a maledy that many games suffer. It's trying to be more than what it is. And what It is is an isometric RPG. Pulling mechanics that fit into other games just to make this one seem more realistic or simply to try and give it more depth is not the right way to go about it.

160

General / Re: Uhm, the economical and crafting sistems stil need some more loving..

« on: January 12, 2015, 04:56:31 pm »

Assuming you get a 50% bonus, you start with 15 points, gain 5 per level that's level 18 when you get 100 base points to get 150 total from bonus. Too much investment.

161

General / Re: Uhm, the economical and crafting sistems stil need some more loving..

« on: January 12, 2015, 03:17:40 pm »

That isn't exactly right. Combat skills have to alwys be maxed, they are your damage dealers, you need them to work as best as possible. Crafting has lots of requirement, while you can conceivably stop at a certain value, that value is very high so you need to keep it up really high until you hit that sweet spot, then you can start putting it somewhere else. Even then crafting requires skills so absurdly high that by the time you have them on over 150 you're probably close to max level anyway.

And yes you can say you only put 20 points into biology, yes, biology is quite a bit useless in my opinion too. But it's a purely theorical conversation about having 5 crafting skills and not losing anything.

There is always loss in the example given by epeli. Not only you don't have enough for hacking and lockpick as he said, there is also no etra for the social skill as he said. More however if you have a high intelligence and a high will you will not have many points more to allocate elsewhere. If you want to go heavy armor you will not have strenght for it. If you want to go lighter armors you will then need an extra skill which is stealth in order to be able to start the combat in your terms (this is so your CCs will work properly).

162

General / Re: Uhm, the economical and crafting sistems stil need some more loving..

« on: January 12, 2015, 01:03:08 pm »

Taking into account that you can chose a max of 8 skills (divide starting points by 15) and you stick 5 crafting skills and 3 psionic skills, I don't see where you get enough for lockpicking, hacking and a social skill of your liking. That would requir you to have 45 extra starting skill points and 15 extra skill points per level.

163

General / Re: Uhm, the economical and crafting sistems stil need some more loving..

« on: January 12, 2015, 07:23:32 am »

Merchants lowering the price with more stuff they buy won't make the problem go away, it will only agravate it because then people will feel that it's only worth selling one item rather than a few or all.

164

Bugs / Re: 0.1.13 bugs

« on: January 07, 2015, 11:17:41 pm »

Nope I didn't post it here. This thing is a very old bug already. I first found it when there wasn't weight limits and merchants were awesome (can't remember which patch was that).

165

General / Re: Uhm, the economical and crafting sistems stil need some more loving..

« on: January 07, 2015, 05:22:22 pm »

Of course. But I feel it's more worth to sacrifice something that is only good for end game in order to get something that is good for the entire game.