166
General / Re: Uhm, the economical and crafting sistems stil need some more loving..
« on: January 07, 2015, 02:22:48 pm »
True that you can do it that way, but it's far from not sacrificing anything!
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167
General / Re: Uhm, the economical and crafting sistems stil need some more loving..
« on: January 06, 2015, 01:04:08 pm »
I don't see how you can not sacrifice anything with the 5 crafting skills.
If you use a heavy armor build along with high intelligence then you can forgo the stealth. nut with lockpicking + hacking that leaves you only one skill left for whatever attack type you chose and being restricted to one attack type is never a good thing anyway... I cannot see a 5 crafting skills without sacrificing anythin ever being possible in anyway. Then again, the problem still lies with invest from the begining to only be useful at end game and with any luck for a mission or two in the early game.
If you use a heavy armor build along with high intelligence then you can forgo the stealth. nut with lockpicking + hacking that leaves you only one skill left for whatever attack type you chose and being restricted to one attack type is never a good thing anyway... I cannot see a 5 crafting skills without sacrificing anythin ever being possible in anyway. Then again, the problem still lies with invest from the begining to only be useful at end game and with any luck for a mission or two in the early game.
168
General / Re: Uhm, the economical and crafting sistems stil need some more loving..
« on: January 03, 2015, 06:06:14 am »
Because it's pointless to look for such things right now. there are few people that have the game, even fewer who played at several points in the development and then again, even fewer who bother to write a review or come to any foruns saying anything... I did present some fact pointing that before the game had less complaints with the old system than with the new one. Even if you really want to blow it off by saying it's only a few people, it went from no complainins, everyone loved it to some people don't like the new mechanics. So in the eyes of the public it's a less liked system. I'm sure you would at least agree with me here.
As for how can I be sure that people don't like it. Let's take an example out of a different genre just to debate the main issue here. Look at MMORPGs and tell me. How many people like fetch quest? I fact I belive that the last final fantasy MMO receibed two black marks on not having a proper tutorial and the very first hour of the game being nothing but fetch quest which everyone hated.
Now why does everyone dislikes fetch quests in MMORPGs? Because they waste their time. People want to runaround exploring the land, killing monsters and that sorta stuff. Not being told, waste 2 minutes walking over there, click on that and then waste 2 minutes walking back here.
Now this is not a MMORPG so you don't expect much in terms of that nature but doesn't carry limits do the same? Hit carry limit, stop quest in the middle, go sell or store it somehwere safe where monsters don't respawn and it won't disapear. Return to continue with the quest. I've only went as far as GMS compound but if you can't even do 2 floors of it without being overloaded (ok so maybe a high str character can but he'll probably be close to the limit), then just imagine depot A, then try to imagine other type of places with even more and more loot. We get to a point where I even start thinking. Can I even complete that place with all the trips I'll have to make back and forth? Because respawns set in and I have to start from the begining and becomes a never ending cicle (maybe I'm exagerating but it drives the point across). It's a huge waste of time and it's a major loss in game immersion.
Now if this wasn't bad then there is the trade system which gives me two options. One is to waste several hours to try and sell everything because merchant's don't just buy everything or just throw away all of my hard earnings so I don't waste even more time... You could say if I pick only some stuff and never bring more than I can carry then it solves the problem of wasting time but it's still a huge loss of money. As a player I feel cheated out of my earnings. To compare it to a ARPG, it's the same as killing diablo and just doesn't dros anything or maybe drops only a couple white items. It is on the same level... If I worked to kill those guys, If I explored that place, then it's to make money out of everything I find in there, I'm not doing it for charity. charity I may practice when during the dialogue with a character I decide that's what I want to do, but that is as far as it goes.
As for how can I be sure that people don't like it. Let's take an example out of a different genre just to debate the main issue here. Look at MMORPGs and tell me. How many people like fetch quest? I fact I belive that the last final fantasy MMO receibed two black marks on not having a proper tutorial and the very first hour of the game being nothing but fetch quest which everyone hated.
Now why does everyone dislikes fetch quests in MMORPGs? Because they waste their time. People want to runaround exploring the land, killing monsters and that sorta stuff. Not being told, waste 2 minutes walking over there, click on that and then waste 2 minutes walking back here.
Now this is not a MMORPG so you don't expect much in terms of that nature but doesn't carry limits do the same? Hit carry limit, stop quest in the middle, go sell or store it somehwere safe where monsters don't respawn and it won't disapear. Return to continue with the quest. I've only went as far as GMS compound but if you can't even do 2 floors of it without being overloaded (ok so maybe a high str character can but he'll probably be close to the limit), then just imagine depot A, then try to imagine other type of places with even more and more loot. We get to a point where I even start thinking. Can I even complete that place with all the trips I'll have to make back and forth? Because respawns set in and I have to start from the begining and becomes a never ending cicle (maybe I'm exagerating but it drives the point across). It's a huge waste of time and it's a major loss in game immersion.
Now if this wasn't bad then there is the trade system which gives me two options. One is to waste several hours to try and sell everything because merchant's don't just buy everything or just throw away all of my hard earnings so I don't waste even more time... You could say if I pick only some stuff and never bring more than I can carry then it solves the problem of wasting time but it's still a huge loss of money. As a player I feel cheated out of my earnings. To compare it to a ARPG, it's the same as killing diablo and just doesn't dros anything or maybe drops only a couple white items. It is on the same level... If I worked to kill those guys, If I explored that place, then it's to make money out of everything I find in there, I'm not doing it for charity. charity I may practice when during the dialogue with a character I decide that's what I want to do, but that is as far as it goes.
169
General / Re: Uhm, the economical and crafting sistems stil need some more loving..
« on: January 02, 2015, 04:52:58 pm »
Well most RPGs don't have such carry weight limits so absurd that even doing something on the level of GMS is going to very easily put you over. It takes a lot more advanced content to put you over weight... If carry weights were so bad as in underrail (and i do belive the problem is less of the values but some items which are overly heavy like sledgehammers), they'd probably go from a small annoyance to enough annoyance to quit the game entirely.
The wost case scenario is the vast majority of people who buy the game will drop it early on. Granted with mods later on some will pick it up again but again, that will be the credit of the modders to make the game good which is something that could be completly avoided... Don't take me wrong, I greatly respect the mod scene, they make many games great but really, I don't think it's a developer's dream to have their game recognised as good because of a mod someone else made.
As for who said it. I am not 100% sure at the moment, it was a youtube well known person, probably TB but I cannot be sure of that right now. Might have been force or someone else I used to watch regularly.
Don't tell me about the rules of the game. if the rules are bad then it's the game/developer's fault, not the player. If you make a game which consists of people clicking in the screen to make the screen change colour and someone says its bad, you cannot come out and say. Hey, you're just not ready to play by the rules. There are good mechanics and there are bad mechanics. Mechanics that waste people time are just plain bad. Just because a few like it, it doesn't makes it good. Similarly if a game makes you feel cheated out of your hard earnings then the game is doing it wrong. The game should always make you feel like you are acomplishing something, that every scrap you collect is a step closer to your goals. Even if the game is ripping you off, so long as you don't feel it, then it's done right. The moment you feel you are being cheated the game ceases to be fun.
How did I arrive at these numbers. Do i really need to have numbers to understand that people don't like playing games that aren't fun for them? And that games that have bad mechanics suck out the fun of the game? I'm trying not to be sarcastic here but come on...
Proper may be a strong word but if you want to analize the facts we can. Fact is that a large amount of the current playerbase (which is still very small at the moment) doesn't minds mechanics that waste their time and cheat them of their hard earn stuff. However let's compare it to pre carry weights and old economic system.
Old problems of the carry weight limits... Heard no complains whatsoever... currently there are already some complains and again, i'm sure that the current majority will be a minority in the future with the game being release but we'll leave that out of the picture as those are not yet facts.
Old problems of the economic system... There is too much money available! that's the only thing that was ever said... Or to be more specific, there is too little in the begining and too much from midgame... What did the new economic system do? You get even more money! So this problem aggravated itself and now you also have some complains of the buying limits being bad by some people. Again i do belive that the majority who likes it now will be a minority after release but not a fact yet.
Thus we can at very least conclude one thing. Comparing player feedback between back then and now, it only got worse. This is a fact!
The wost case scenario is the vast majority of people who buy the game will drop it early on. Granted with mods later on some will pick it up again but again, that will be the credit of the modders to make the game good which is something that could be completly avoided... Don't take me wrong, I greatly respect the mod scene, they make many games great but really, I don't think it's a developer's dream to have their game recognised as good because of a mod someone else made.
As for who said it. I am not 100% sure at the moment, it was a youtube well known person, probably TB but I cannot be sure of that right now. Might have been force or someone else I used to watch regularly.
Don't tell me about the rules of the game. if the rules are bad then it's the game/developer's fault, not the player. If you make a game which consists of people clicking in the screen to make the screen change colour and someone says its bad, you cannot come out and say. Hey, you're just not ready to play by the rules. There are good mechanics and there are bad mechanics. Mechanics that waste people time are just plain bad. Just because a few like it, it doesn't makes it good. Similarly if a game makes you feel cheated out of your hard earnings then the game is doing it wrong. The game should always make you feel like you are acomplishing something, that every scrap you collect is a step closer to your goals. Even if the game is ripping you off, so long as you don't feel it, then it's done right. The moment you feel you are being cheated the game ceases to be fun.
How did I arrive at these numbers. Do i really need to have numbers to understand that people don't like playing games that aren't fun for them? And that games that have bad mechanics suck out the fun of the game? I'm trying not to be sarcastic here but come on...
Proper may be a strong word but if you want to analize the facts we can. Fact is that a large amount of the current playerbase (which is still very small at the moment) doesn't minds mechanics that waste their time and cheat them of their hard earn stuff. However let's compare it to pre carry weights and old economic system.
Old problems of the carry weight limits... Heard no complains whatsoever... currently there are already some complains and again, i'm sure that the current majority will be a minority in the future with the game being release but we'll leave that out of the picture as those are not yet facts.
Old problems of the economic system... There is too much money available! that's the only thing that was ever said... Or to be more specific, there is too little in the begining and too much from midgame... What did the new economic system do? You get even more money! So this problem aggravated itself and now you also have some complains of the buying limits being bad by some people. Again i do belive that the majority who likes it now will be a minority after release but not a fact yet.
Thus we can at very least conclude one thing. Comparing player feedback between back then and now, it only got worse. This is a fact!
170
General / Re: Uhm, the economical and crafting sistems stil need some more loving..
« on: January 02, 2015, 01:57:09 pm »
I feel you are severely underestimating what people like and dislike in games. Underrail has a small community behind it right now because it is an indie game and because it is in early access. Once the game gets fully released and a much larger mass of people buy it. How do you think they will see this bearing in mind most people don't like having carry limits, they just want to keep moving on and that they can't sell even a third of what they find. Add the time waste to travel between all known cities to try and sell everything plus possible money wasted doing so.
What you see here in the foruns is going to be a very small minority once the game is fully released, this not to mention that even when this current majority becomes the minority, that won't even be the full scale of the problem, We all know the vast majority of people that don't like a game won't complain in the foruns, that's too much work to register an account in a forum just to say why they didn't liked the game. It's a lot easier to just uninstal and try to forget they ever spent money on the game.
Don't forget one thing, this isn't a rogue-like where resoruce management is important. Something like sword of the stars: the pit where you do are limited by inventory space and there is no vendors or anything. You are supposed to chose what to keep and what to leave. This is an RPG where an economy is part of it.
As someone once said about what makes a great RPG. Remove all busy work from it! Have no such things as fetch quests. Have no carry limits. Have no limits to the amount of things you can sell.
Make your game stand by the solidity of it's good mechanics, don't add mechanics that waste people's time.
I think I couldn't really put it better myself.
Some people do not mind time wasting mechanics or mechanics that cheat them out of their stuff. That is ok but those people are a minority.
You do are right that I keep saying the same thing over and over again, but this is something that needs to either be changed or at least have an option implemented as soon as possible. The reason is that when the game is released it's working well with a proper trade system.
What you see here in the foruns is going to be a very small minority once the game is fully released, this not to mention that even when this current majority becomes the minority, that won't even be the full scale of the problem, We all know the vast majority of people that don't like a game won't complain in the foruns, that's too much work to register an account in a forum just to say why they didn't liked the game. It's a lot easier to just uninstal and try to forget they ever spent money on the game.
Don't forget one thing, this isn't a rogue-like where resoruce management is important. Something like sword of the stars: the pit where you do are limited by inventory space and there is no vendors or anything. You are supposed to chose what to keep and what to leave. This is an RPG where an economy is part of it.
As someone once said about what makes a great RPG. Remove all busy work from it! Have no such things as fetch quests. Have no carry limits. Have no limits to the amount of things you can sell.
Make your game stand by the solidity of it's good mechanics, don't add mechanics that waste people's time.
I think I couldn't really put it better myself.
Some people do not mind time wasting mechanics or mechanics that cheat them out of their stuff. That is ok but those people are a minority.
You do are right that I keep saying the same thing over and over again, but this is something that needs to either be changed or at least have an option implemented as soon as possible. The reason is that when the game is released it's working well with a proper trade system.
171
General / Re: Uhm, the economical and crafting sistems stil need some more loving..
« on: January 02, 2015, 03:48:49 am »
No mater how much you want to try and shy away from common practice, loot is at the end of the day exactly that. Either something you use or money. You want it as a part of a gun, it has a use. It's an armor better than yours? It has a use. When it doesn't has a use then it has a monetary value so that if useful stuff doesn't drops, you buy it.
Everything in underrail is useful! can you tell me of something that you pickup that has no use? Even if you can I'm sure it's something incredibly rare. Everything has a use. Society has collapsed, the few survivors life in the metro and bunker dug and fortified inside the earth. Resources are scarse, do you think people who scavnge for stuff wouldn't horde and sell everything? If they found a place with stuff they'd pick it clean! Eveything has a value!
Obviously people can't carry a train on their back nor do the merchants really have unlimited amounts of money. But this is where gammy sense has to overcome real sense and if needed you can justify it very very easily. You can have some sort of backapack that can magicly (or tecnologicaly) store whatever you put inside and with no weight associated to it. Merchants will never buy you anything at all, each town has a storage which buy anything and everything, they have quite literally tons of money. Merchants only buy things from storage to sell so the storage just has lots of money because merchants need to aquire stuff from them. Easy to justify things if you really want but above all, it stands to reason that gammy sense has to prevail over real sense in some parts to make things work.
Also it's wrong to compare this to ARPGs (or hack and slash games as I call it). In ARPGs you are put in a situation that it's neither profitable nor timely to get every piece of loot. White loot won't even pay for a scroll and the time lost in going to town every 10 seconds would make playing the game pointless... Even then there are ARPGs that do that right. Look at Sacred 2 and you have a perfect example. You have a huge inventory and you can instantly sell from the inventory at a smaller margin but the value of white items are not high so the loss is insignificant, meanwhile you keep getting every piece of loot and selling and not stop playing thus not breaking game immersion. Do they bother explaining how you can do that? No, why would they? It's a thing meant to keep you playing and have fun, it only has to make gammy sense, not real sense... But going back to proper RPGs which use a turn based system you are supposed to pick up everything. Take fallout 2 as an example. Did you leave any loot behind? I know I didn't. I know I sold everything I got my hands on! If there was too much loot I'd store everything I couldn't carry in a closet near the exit and make trips back and forth. this is where the game could have used a little bit of a hand. No carry limits would make those parts less boring and keep you constantly engaged on the fun. Similarly there was no unlimited amount of money on merchants but in any given place they could always buy all I had and if not I'd just start getting stimpacks as money replacements since you use a lot of them anyway. There was no limit or this type only of items that they bought from you and again, if they had unlimited money, it would only have made it better because again, it would have less of boring trading time and more time engaged in playing the actual game.
I understand that Styg has different views for his game and I do respect that he wants to do some things differently. But in these areas I feel it's an exercice in futility. People don't like these things. People don't like to have their time wasted or feel like they are being cheated out of their money. He could have dealt with it the same way he dealt with the oddity system. Make it an option, not an obligation... At any rate it's very likely people will mod these exact things I'm talking about. It might take a long time or it might come up quickly. But it's sure to be expected to happen either way because most people won't like it as it is. The same will go for the crafting, I'm sure someone will mod it to make crafting useful from the very start but that's a whole new can of worms.
What I mean is. If it's already well known that mechanics which make people feel cheated of their stuff or make people feel like it's wasting their time is pretty much widely disliked. Why go so hard on making sure the game has it? Why give the moders the credit for making a game good instead of the developers taking the credit for having made a good game? Again, so long as there is options and you can chose whether or you want those mechanics or not, then there is no problem.
Of course you can say those can be added last and you'd be right, but then how much testing is the game going to have with those options? Sure the early access is mostly a way to gain revenue to help funding the game but still, if you can use feedback to improve the game then it should be used in all aspects of the game.
Everything in underrail is useful! can you tell me of something that you pickup that has no use? Even if you can I'm sure it's something incredibly rare. Everything has a use. Society has collapsed, the few survivors life in the metro and bunker dug and fortified inside the earth. Resources are scarse, do you think people who scavnge for stuff wouldn't horde and sell everything? If they found a place with stuff they'd pick it clean! Eveything has a value!
Obviously people can't carry a train on their back nor do the merchants really have unlimited amounts of money. But this is where gammy sense has to overcome real sense and if needed you can justify it very very easily. You can have some sort of backapack that can magicly (or tecnologicaly) store whatever you put inside and with no weight associated to it. Merchants will never buy you anything at all, each town has a storage which buy anything and everything, they have quite literally tons of money. Merchants only buy things from storage to sell so the storage just has lots of money because merchants need to aquire stuff from them. Easy to justify things if you really want but above all, it stands to reason that gammy sense has to prevail over real sense in some parts to make things work.
Also it's wrong to compare this to ARPGs (or hack and slash games as I call it). In ARPGs you are put in a situation that it's neither profitable nor timely to get every piece of loot. White loot won't even pay for a scroll and the time lost in going to town every 10 seconds would make playing the game pointless... Even then there are ARPGs that do that right. Look at Sacred 2 and you have a perfect example. You have a huge inventory and you can instantly sell from the inventory at a smaller margin but the value of white items are not high so the loss is insignificant, meanwhile you keep getting every piece of loot and selling and not stop playing thus not breaking game immersion. Do they bother explaining how you can do that? No, why would they? It's a thing meant to keep you playing and have fun, it only has to make gammy sense, not real sense... But going back to proper RPGs which use a turn based system you are supposed to pick up everything. Take fallout 2 as an example. Did you leave any loot behind? I know I didn't. I know I sold everything I got my hands on! If there was too much loot I'd store everything I couldn't carry in a closet near the exit and make trips back and forth. this is where the game could have used a little bit of a hand. No carry limits would make those parts less boring and keep you constantly engaged on the fun. Similarly there was no unlimited amount of money on merchants but in any given place they could always buy all I had and if not I'd just start getting stimpacks as money replacements since you use a lot of them anyway. There was no limit or this type only of items that they bought from you and again, if they had unlimited money, it would only have made it better because again, it would have less of boring trading time and more time engaged in playing the actual game.
I understand that Styg has different views for his game and I do respect that he wants to do some things differently. But in these areas I feel it's an exercice in futility. People don't like these things. People don't like to have their time wasted or feel like they are being cheated out of their money. He could have dealt with it the same way he dealt with the oddity system. Make it an option, not an obligation... At any rate it's very likely people will mod these exact things I'm talking about. It might take a long time or it might come up quickly. But it's sure to be expected to happen either way because most people won't like it as it is. The same will go for the crafting, I'm sure someone will mod it to make crafting useful from the very start but that's a whole new can of worms.
What I mean is. If it's already well known that mechanics which make people feel cheated of their stuff or make people feel like it's wasting their time is pretty much widely disliked. Why go so hard on making sure the game has it? Why give the moders the credit for making a game good instead of the developers taking the credit for having made a good game? Again, so long as there is options and you can chose whether or you want those mechanics or not, then there is no problem.
Of course you can say those can be added last and you'd be right, but then how much testing is the game going to have with those options? Sure the early access is mostly a way to gain revenue to help funding the game but still, if you can use feedback to improve the game then it should be used in all aspects of the game.
172
General / Re: Uhm, the economical and crafting sistems stil need some more loving..
« on: January 01, 2015, 03:38:49 pm »
1 - I belive everyone was saying before that shields were only craftable and never showed for sale or as loot drops. Everyone was actually saying that this fact was a very good reason to pick crafting alone. I was merely going along with it but if it's not true, even more of a reason not to craft.
2 - Well if you can't buy mk5 grenades I guess they just haven't been implemented for sale yet or they might never be. But it takes 112 I think just to get to them. So an average intelligence character gets that when, level 20? Right........................
3 -
A - You shouldn't be crafting appropriate level gear. Again that is ridiciculous. What you find as soon as you arive in junkyard for example is gear that is higher level than you, this is why it's not worth it to craft. You should be able to craft even better gear at this point. Again, crafting should always keep you ahead of the curve, never behind at any point during the game. I'll keep saying this till he end of times.
B - Are you really going to tell me that you don't have the required money to buy all the expendable craftables throughout the game?.. Sure you might not be able to buy the very best, example being the MK5 grenade but you do buy most things.
C - Not it doesn't and you know it doesn't. I've already told you that transforming thousands of charrons into repair kits which you still wouldn't be able to sell all but those you would only turn to a few hundred is not a solution, it's as good a solution as leaving stuff behind for all purposes and effects... Loot is never junk, loot is money!
D - I saw your post and yeah, if you're lucky and get some appropriate low level stuff that you can craft then sure, you can make something hard a little bit easier. But just as syphoner skin is something new, can't you just buy stuff from the stores made out of it? Even if you can't all you're saying is. Sure, use crafting to get through a single quest easier. Still not worth the investment.
4 - I will not say I know exactly how much skills I need in crafting, but I know that 100 is not something light, it's something at very least level 17. Not like you max one skill in 5 levels and then max the next in another 5 levels so you can tier it up slowly. The investment is rather heavy because you almost always need multiple crafting types... Chemistry is a bad example there, for mk5 grenades they need a very high skill, borderline insane if you are to ask me. Besides you do say you don't need more than 100 for most things. I don't know, the higher quallity the stuff is, the more skill it asks, if you put attachements, each one is going to increase the total skill by 10%. While I haven't been there because crafting has mostly been a waste of time, I can see things escalating easily above 100 unless components that require more than 80 points do not exist.
5 - My earlier problem with the crafting was never the lack of materials, it was the absurdly high requirements of it! That problem is still not addressed and Styg pretty much said he is not going to change it. It is his game however so it's his right to say how things are made. I feel however that when the game is released that nearly no one will go crafting route as it is.
Last and never least. While you could be right that at some point players look more into equipment than levels for power (quite frankly I always look into both for power at any point) there is a limit to how much stuff you can do. Many builds completly make crafting unviable. I crafting is supposed to ever become a requirement to late game then a lot is lost because of it which means, poor balance. Crafting should keep you ahead of the curve because characters who craft can't do a lot of other stuff thus they power their way with better equipment. Characters without crafting are more powerful in other areas so they don't need the extra power from equipment, simple balance... I think that despite combat mechanics being clear it won't change much. The vast majority will not like the crafting system and not use it. Just as many people will not like the carry weight which is unbearably low even for a 10 str character. They will also not like the economic system. Whether some of these things will have an option to be turned off or made better I do not know, but if not I'm sure people will start modding the game to solve these problems. Right now that do is my only hope. That the game gets released and someone mods it to deal with the carry weights, merchants and crafting.
2 - Well if you can't buy mk5 grenades I guess they just haven't been implemented for sale yet or they might never be. But it takes 112 I think just to get to them. So an average intelligence character gets that when, level 20? Right........................
3 -
A - You shouldn't be crafting appropriate level gear. Again that is ridiciculous. What you find as soon as you arive in junkyard for example is gear that is higher level than you, this is why it's not worth it to craft. You should be able to craft even better gear at this point. Again, crafting should always keep you ahead of the curve, never behind at any point during the game. I'll keep saying this till he end of times.
B - Are you really going to tell me that you don't have the required money to buy all the expendable craftables throughout the game?.. Sure you might not be able to buy the very best, example being the MK5 grenade but you do buy most things.
C - Not it doesn't and you know it doesn't. I've already told you that transforming thousands of charrons into repair kits which you still wouldn't be able to sell all but those you would only turn to a few hundred is not a solution, it's as good a solution as leaving stuff behind for all purposes and effects... Loot is never junk, loot is money!
D - I saw your post and yeah, if you're lucky and get some appropriate low level stuff that you can craft then sure, you can make something hard a little bit easier. But just as syphoner skin is something new, can't you just buy stuff from the stores made out of it? Even if you can't all you're saying is. Sure, use crafting to get through a single quest easier. Still not worth the investment.
4 - I will not say I know exactly how much skills I need in crafting, but I know that 100 is not something light, it's something at very least level 17. Not like you max one skill in 5 levels and then max the next in another 5 levels so you can tier it up slowly. The investment is rather heavy because you almost always need multiple crafting types... Chemistry is a bad example there, for mk5 grenades they need a very high skill, borderline insane if you are to ask me. Besides you do say you don't need more than 100 for most things. I don't know, the higher quallity the stuff is, the more skill it asks, if you put attachements, each one is going to increase the total skill by 10%. While I haven't been there because crafting has mostly been a waste of time, I can see things escalating easily above 100 unless components that require more than 80 points do not exist.
5 - My earlier problem with the crafting was never the lack of materials, it was the absurdly high requirements of it! That problem is still not addressed and Styg pretty much said he is not going to change it. It is his game however so it's his right to say how things are made. I feel however that when the game is released that nearly no one will go crafting route as it is.
Last and never least. While you could be right that at some point players look more into equipment than levels for power (quite frankly I always look into both for power at any point) there is a limit to how much stuff you can do. Many builds completly make crafting unviable. I crafting is supposed to ever become a requirement to late game then a lot is lost because of it which means, poor balance. Crafting should keep you ahead of the curve because characters who craft can't do a lot of other stuff thus they power their way with better equipment. Characters without crafting are more powerful in other areas so they don't need the extra power from equipment, simple balance... I think that despite combat mechanics being clear it won't change much. The vast majority will not like the crafting system and not use it. Just as many people will not like the carry weight which is unbearably low even for a 10 str character. They will also not like the economic system. Whether some of these things will have an option to be turned off or made better I do not know, but if not I'm sure people will start modding the game to solve these problems. Right now that do is my only hope. That the game gets released and someone mods it to deal with the carry weights, merchants and crafting.
173
General / Re: Uhm, the economical and crafting sistems stil need some more loving..
« on: December 31, 2014, 03:28:22 pm »
Well, if crafting is only useful for end game content and early to mid game isn't really that useful becuae you can find better stuff then i will still look at it and say it's not worth it. I don't want to be investing into skills for a quarter of the game, maybe less?
This not to mention that crafting has a problem. While the idea is good it ends up being a problem in the same token. Crafting has synergies. I tend to look at crafting and think. I want tailoring for armor, but I'll laso need mechanics because some parts will need it, then I'll need electronics because shields and well, weapons can use it too. That's already 3 skills and if I want to make bombs add one extra skill... It is too much to ask when any character I make will need at least 2 weapon related skills hacking and lockpicking, probably stealth unless going for heavy armor. possible dodging and evasion, possible 3 psi abillities.
So huge problems, too much investment needed right from level 1 to only be really useful at end game for a small part of the content.
This not to mention that crafting has a problem. While the idea is good it ends up being a problem in the same token. Crafting has synergies. I tend to look at crafting and think. I want tailoring for armor, but I'll laso need mechanics because some parts will need it, then I'll need electronics because shields and well, weapons can use it too. That's already 3 skills and if I want to make bombs add one extra skill... It is too much to ask when any character I make will need at least 2 weapon related skills hacking and lockpicking, probably stealth unless going for heavy armor. possible dodging and evasion, possible 3 psi abillities.
So huge problems, too much investment needed right from level 1 to only be really useful at end game for a small part of the content.
174
General / Re: Uhm, the economical and crafting sistems stil need some more loving..
« on: December 31, 2014, 05:51:47 am »
Only in shields because you can't buy shields. Anything you can craft you'll find better for sale. You only advantage is adding thing like laser sights and whatnot. Most weapons you can only find with one modification where crafting allows you to get 2, but the weapons will still be much weaker than what the shops have to offer you in terms of raw damage.
I crafted leathers and guns very close to my skill limit at an average intelligence value but maxed crafting skills and I can tell you that whatever I crafted even with no extras was vastly inferior to what shops had to offer. To give you a better understanding. If I crafted an assault rifle right before going into the junkyard it would be worse or at best very close to what I had by then. However it would be vastly inferior (and I do not say vastly in any light terms) to anything on sale in junkyard.
This is why I've always said crafting was not worth it and to some degree people agreeded with me. Of course grenades were good to craft some patches back when they asked for lower crafting skills, now it's probably better to just buy them as you need to invest too much and are likely to find better tiers before you can actually craft them.
Now with the shields which can only be crafted, sure there is a reason to invest into a crafting skill. Electronics and really that's the only reason to invest into it right now (and maybe 20 in biology for doctor feat, not actual crafting).
I don't see how you can say that you can craft much better items than you can find on average skills. The crafting skill requirements have never been dropped after all. I know my knowledge of this is a bit old but I know this wasn't changed and I'm pretty sure the merchants weren't nerfed in the quallity of weapons they have because if they were people would be having problems to fight monsters with guns that would be so weak that even crafting could make better.
I crafted leathers and guns very close to my skill limit at an average intelligence value but maxed crafting skills and I can tell you that whatever I crafted even with no extras was vastly inferior to what shops had to offer. To give you a better understanding. If I crafted an assault rifle right before going into the junkyard it would be worse or at best very close to what I had by then. However it would be vastly inferior (and I do not say vastly in any light terms) to anything on sale in junkyard.
This is why I've always said crafting was not worth it and to some degree people agreeded with me. Of course grenades were good to craft some patches back when they asked for lower crafting skills, now it's probably better to just buy them as you need to invest too much and are likely to find better tiers before you can actually craft them.
Now with the shields which can only be crafted, sure there is a reason to invest into a crafting skill. Electronics and really that's the only reason to invest into it right now (and maybe 20 in biology for doctor feat, not actual crafting).
I don't see how you can say that you can craft much better items than you can find on average skills. The crafting skill requirements have never been dropped after all. I know my knowledge of this is a bit old but I know this wasn't changed and I'm pretty sure the merchants weren't nerfed in the quallity of weapons they have because if they were people would be having problems to fight monsters with guns that would be so weak that even crafting could make better.
175
General / Re: Uhm, the economical and crafting sistems stil need some more loving..
« on: December 30, 2014, 08:39:06 pm »
Pretty much sums up the problems I find with the game. Crafting keeps you behind the curve, not ahead. You are always finding something better than you can craft, either as a drop or merchants selling it. the only use I see for craft now (since grenades were put at too high levels) is shields. Other than that crafting is nothing but a waste of points in my opinion.
The current merchant system is equally bad. Not because it gives you too much money but ratehr because it doesn't buys everything. I much prefered the old where I had a lot less money but I could at least sell everything. It definitly made me a lot happier. That and no carry limits because doing 2 levels of the GMS already gives me more things than I can carry. I breaks game immersion to stop in the middle just to go sell/drop loot. Leaving loot behind for me is just not an option.
I'll tell you right now however that there is no plan to change this, some people like it as it is, some people dislike it as it is. The developers firmly belive this is the better way and Styg stated it would not change, neither the crafting nor the economy system. We'll have to wait for a full release to see if at least some options are included to change this and if not, wait for mods to bring the game more in line with what we like.
The current merchant system is equally bad. Not because it gives you too much money but ratehr because it doesn't buys everything. I much prefered the old where I had a lot less money but I could at least sell everything. It definitly made me a lot happier. That and no carry limits because doing 2 levels of the GMS already gives me more things than I can carry. I breaks game immersion to stop in the middle just to go sell/drop loot. Leaving loot behind for me is just not an option.
I'll tell you right now however that there is no plan to change this, some people like it as it is, some people dislike it as it is. The developers firmly belive this is the better way and Styg stated it would not change, neither the crafting nor the economy system. We'll have to wait for a full release to see if at least some options are included to change this and if not, wait for mods to bring the game more in line with what we like.
176
Suggestions / Re: Some thing that could be slightly changed, possible spoilers inside
« on: December 28, 2014, 12:14:32 pm »
If that was the case then the lunatic bandits should have always auto detect me and they did once and after that they were not. That indicates a bug. Also the mutants in depot A (acid ones) are not an equipment user creature as far as I'm aware.
177
Suggestions / Re: Some thing that could be slightly changed, possible spoilers inside
« on: December 27, 2014, 05:53:41 pm »
I did noticed that yes and it's not just for them, it's for everyone as far as I've noticed. If one goes orange all go orange. I imagine it's because the suspicion is too high they start alerting eachother.
178
Suggestions / Re: Some thing that could be slightly changed, possible spoilers inside
« on: December 27, 2014, 04:41:52 pm »Good point, I was reflecting too much on my own limited experience. And I often play low con/will + high int characters, which makes psibugs' neural overload really scary... it's almost mandatory to keep them from using it.
Indeed, their mechanical threshold will definitely be a problem for melee characters who don't have the str to use off-build sledgehammers, but I find str useful for melee dexxers, or maybe I'm just used to str being a necessity for them.But is it really that bad with (metal) gloves and heavy punches?
The mushroom cove base also has some nice spots where you can lure them to a corner or abuse doors, sometimes getting them to reveal their brain almost right next to you before realizing they don't have enough AP left to attack. You'll never have to fight more than one at a time unless you chase them across the base. Instead, let them come to you whenever possible.
On stealth:
The only situation where instant detection applies is when you're trying to cheese your way past too high level mobs, and I bet that's intended. I did manage to trigger instant detection against the lvl10 lunatics with a freshly-created lvl1 character with only 37 stealth, no big surprise there. But I can't think of any other way to trigger it. The stealth requirements don't seem to be high, but I can't test it on very low (<5) level characters without taking the effort to edit some characters.
Here's a random lowbie wearing metal armor, standing almost at their faces, in a brightly lit spot, and still not detected. Not even at orange. lololol.It is a case of rendering the one and only form of defense of some characters completly uselessNow THAT is absolute fucking bullshit.
First, stealth works brilliantly if you specialize in it (ie. try to have it as your "only defense"), which you adamantly have refused to do so far. Whatever you say has no relevance until you actually try it.
Second, it will never be anyone's only defense. Speccing into stealth means you have powerful synergies for dodge/evasion and high MPs. Not to mention even leather armors have resistances, even if they are the lowest. In all honesty, CC is the main defense (defense being any method to reduce incoming damage) for all builds.
Well my strenght was 3 because I wanted a quick punching, very high agility and dexterity and depend on dodging + stealth. I know that higher strenght gives me more damage but really, if I want to benefict from strenght then I'd go for sledgehammers. As for the metal gloves, haven't tried them but I don't want them as they have a much higher AP cost, the only reason I want leather gloves is only because I know you always need gloves, pure unarmed doesn't works, especially when you meet robots. Heavy punch, I don't remember if it has a strenght requirement or not but 180% damage for 200% PA cost... Highly innefficient use of AP in my opinion, 2 punches will deal more damage for the same amount of AP (ok maybe not with damage reductions but more punch more crit possibillities anyway).
Yes you never have to fight more than one if you fight them smartly but the point still remains that for unarmed characters they ar much of a challenge alone and if they are not alone you can't even engage.
I tried to reproduce the stealth thing. I was actually wrong on the level, I'm level 4 actually but with 43 stealth, apparently I have +11 stealth on my armor. I had already cleared part of GMS (but not leveled up because right now gaining levels is a pain in the rear, I think that classic mode right now might need an experience buff cause killing mobs nearly give you no XP at all, at least I can't seem to level by killing stuff like I used to, the vast majority of XP I get comes from completing the quests, not sure if it's intended to stiffle leveling this much or just an oversight of the classic system).
Anyway, I wasn't able to reproduce the problem this time. I entered the place and I was able to sneak somewhat closer to them. How you can get so close to them on 44 stealth I have no clue when with 43 getting closer to even the dogs gets me on orange very quickly, but the lunatics this time weren't going auto red immediatly. I remember the past atempt the dog was still barely on yellow and they turned immediatly red, they didn't went through any other colour stages and this is the same character with the same equipment at the same level... I can only assume that this is indeed a bug, but doesn't hits every time. As my luck would have it, I couldn't manage to reproduce it when I was activly trying to get you screenshots.
You do are right, CC is the primary form of defense of my character to be honest. But my CC will only get to work in the first place if I dictate the rules of engagement. This means I have to get into the right position before I iniciate combat! I must be close enough to use my psi abillities. I must be in a place or at least the enemy has to be in a place where I can easily CC a few in a round... Stealth plays a major role in it and it's incredibly hard if not impossible to be able to use my CC if my stealth isn't allowing me to dictate the rules of engagement.
You aren't right that I don't focus on stealth. Agillity is 7, while not my primary stat it is already a good bonus. Of course my primary is will for the psi build. I also have made that character for punching right? He is either 8 or 9 agillity. Also don't forget that I don't divide my points. If I pick a skill I am always going to level that skill up to it's max on every level up, excepting for the biology in which I only care enough to get the doctor feat, then it goes into persuasion.
So while CC might be the form of defense all characters use, I don't think primary would be right, you cannot just says, CC and you die. In a heavy strenght character you can tank damage, that's your primary form of defense until your CC can start to kick in. In a character that uses stealth, stealth is your primary defense until you can get into a position where you are able to beggin the combat by laying down the CC first and foremost... I actually think it was a very poor idea (and that is just my opinion anyway) to make stealth remove all MP. Sure there is interloper to kinda circunvent that, but that is for the people who have the liberty to take it. My character does not, the first skill it needs is marksman to get those stun bolts going at 25-AP and then the psi feats which I very much need start showing up so interloper is again left behind, much like the doctor feat. It's a great feat but really, most characters just do not have the liberty to pick it until much later in the game when nothing else of use for their build is being offered.
Of course the reason I stopped playing again are none of these problems. I was already getting pretty annoyed that I couldn't sell everything I find, heck, not even half! Then comes along GMS where I can't even do the middle and lower section without having to go back to unload my inventory, it was the straw that broke the camel's back. For me anyway.
179
Suggestions / Re: Some thing that could be slightly changed, possible spoilers inside
« on: December 27, 2014, 05:44:47 am »
Precisely my point with the azuridae. As for the throwing knifes, I was on a pure unarmed/throwing character the skill was maxed, damage was 0 without brain exposed, around 7 with brain exposed. Unarmed melee is 0 without the brain exposed, with the brain exposed it swung between 1 and 5 per punch (using leather gloves) If not for the number of attacks which would every once in a while get me a critical, it would be next to impossible to kill them and if you face more than one that's GG... I don't feel the quest is badly designed for any other fighting type, but it's badly designed for those specific forms of combat. I think the smaller variant of the azuriade here would have been better for the sake having unarmed melee be effective.
On another point on the throwing knives. With 10 dex and 15 points in throwing (straight out of the character creation) you cannot kill a rathound with 3 throwing knives, considering the cost per throwing knive and the damage i'd say it's pityful. The idea is good but the damage right now is laughable to say the least. They either need a serious damage buff or an AP reduction cost as well as a much lower price.
I don't remember what my stealth was at but it was agi 5 with maxed skill for my level which was 6. No bonus on equipment as neither my starting equipment nor drops granted me extra stealth and I'm too greedy to waste a ton of credit in an armor piece which has only a stealth advantage over mine but no real bonus to my defense.
Either way if this is not a bug it's pretty awefully implemented. You should always have a way of knowing whether the enemy will easily spot you or not. Worst case scenario is a 2 second timer to get detected. Meaning the eye changes state each second... However I do fully belive it's a bug because this happened to me in previous versions of the game when I had completed the available content at the time. For example the mutants in depot A. The green acid spiting bastards. Most of the times they would auto detect me and I was supposedly high enough level for that are having finished already all other quests except 2 side quests. Some times however they wouldn't detect me and the timer would go down at the normal rate of the other mobs wandering around like the acid dogs... In fact depot A was more of a per zone basis. If one mutant in that zone auto detects you, then all the others do too, if one doesn't, then none do. Letting the depot A reset would randomise the areas in which you were auto detected and not... If this was not but then I dunno what it was because I'm pretty sure all mutants are of the same level, bar 1 level difference tops between the inner and outer zones at most... As for the lunatics. They always auto detect. As far as I played in the earlier versions it didn't mattered your level, you are auto detected and that's the end of it. Even if you were level 16 agi 5 but otherwise maxed stealth skill. Now I don't know if they are still just like they used to be, but the fact is I got there, I was instantly detected... There should be no instant detection and the situations where auto detection always applies should be checked just as I reported it too back then.
It isn't so much that you die because you were detected and were not able to start the combat in your own terms. It is a case of rendering the one and only form of defense of some characters completly useless that annoys me.
On another point on the throwing knives. With 10 dex and 15 points in throwing (straight out of the character creation) you cannot kill a rathound with 3 throwing knives, considering the cost per throwing knive and the damage i'd say it's pityful. The idea is good but the damage right now is laughable to say the least. They either need a serious damage buff or an AP reduction cost as well as a much lower price.
I don't remember what my stealth was at but it was agi 5 with maxed skill for my level which was 6. No bonus on equipment as neither my starting equipment nor drops granted me extra stealth and I'm too greedy to waste a ton of credit in an armor piece which has only a stealth advantage over mine but no real bonus to my defense.
Either way if this is not a bug it's pretty awefully implemented. You should always have a way of knowing whether the enemy will easily spot you or not. Worst case scenario is a 2 second timer to get detected. Meaning the eye changes state each second... However I do fully belive it's a bug because this happened to me in previous versions of the game when I had completed the available content at the time. For example the mutants in depot A. The green acid spiting bastards. Most of the times they would auto detect me and I was supposedly high enough level for that are having finished already all other quests except 2 side quests. Some times however they wouldn't detect me and the timer would go down at the normal rate of the other mobs wandering around like the acid dogs... In fact depot A was more of a per zone basis. If one mutant in that zone auto detects you, then all the others do too, if one doesn't, then none do. Letting the depot A reset would randomise the areas in which you were auto detected and not... If this was not but then I dunno what it was because I'm pretty sure all mutants are of the same level, bar 1 level difference tops between the inner and outer zones at most... As for the lunatics. They always auto detect. As far as I played in the earlier versions it didn't mattered your level, you are auto detected and that's the end of it. Even if you were level 16 agi 5 but otherwise maxed stealth skill. Now I don't know if they are still just like they used to be, but the fact is I got there, I was instantly detected... There should be no instant detection and the situations where auto detection always applies should be checked just as I reported it too back then.
It isn't so much that you die because you were detected and were not able to start the combat in your own terms. It is a case of rendering the one and only form of defense of some characters completly useless that annoys me.
180
Suggestions / Some thing that could be slightly changed, possible spoilers inside
« on: December 19, 2014, 08:43:35 am »
I've tried playing the game again, probably won't be going much further in as the carry weight and inabillity to sell even minimal quantities of stuff really kills the game for me but I've noticed a few things that might need to be addressed.
The first is newton's quest. Azuridaes are a bit too tough an opponent to fight so early on. While most characters can take them on with reasonable ease so long as they don't get close to eachother, if you aim for a character that fights unarmed or possibly with combat gloves, then this becomes an unnecessarely tough fight. I had to just waste a bunch of grenades because unnarmed combat was not possible and throwing daggers were laughable... In fact, I think throwing dagger's damage is pretty laughable in general, it's a nice addition but I think the damage output of them should be slightly increased.
The second has to do with stealth and it's nothing new. It happened before and it still happens. Some enemies (especially the dangerous ones) seem to just instantly detect you when you are in stealth. In this specific case I was at the GMS mission, when south of the GMS cause I know there are the lunatic bandits there, a tough fight before but still doable. I have maxed stealth, even if only agillity 5. I get close to the dog and he doesn't detects, me bar starts going up but as soon as I am within range of any of the lunatics they instantly detect me for no reason. I am way too far for the bar to even go up on any other enemies, at the point where the eye is green but at a going down rate, however for them, as soon as it's close enough for the eye to show, it immediatly goes red and starts combat... This happened before, it also happened a lot of time with mutants (and the weird thing is that sometimes it happened sometimes it didn't, there was neither ryhm nor reason to it)... It becomes hard to relly when stealth when it doesn't works half the time for no apparent reason.
The first is newton's quest. Azuridaes are a bit too tough an opponent to fight so early on. While most characters can take them on with reasonable ease so long as they don't get close to eachother, if you aim for a character that fights unarmed or possibly with combat gloves, then this becomes an unnecessarely tough fight. I had to just waste a bunch of grenades because unnarmed combat was not possible and throwing daggers were laughable... In fact, I think throwing dagger's damage is pretty laughable in general, it's a nice addition but I think the damage output of them should be slightly increased.
The second has to do with stealth and it's nothing new. It happened before and it still happens. Some enemies (especially the dangerous ones) seem to just instantly detect you when you are in stealth. In this specific case I was at the GMS mission, when south of the GMS cause I know there are the lunatic bandits there, a tough fight before but still doable. I have maxed stealth, even if only agillity 5. I get close to the dog and he doesn't detects, me bar starts going up but as soon as I am within range of any of the lunatics they instantly detect me for no reason. I am way too far for the bar to even go up on any other enemies, at the point where the eye is green but at a going down rate, however for them, as soon as it's close enough for the eye to show, it immediatly goes red and starts combat... This happened before, it also happened a lot of time with mutants (and the weird thing is that sometimes it happened sometimes it didn't, there was neither ryhm nor reason to it)... It becomes hard to relly when stealth when it doesn't works half the time for no apparent reason.