Messages

451

Suggestions / Re: Couple of suggestions

« on: November 21, 2014, 05:44:56 pm »

1. Shield emitters for low and middle speed are almost useless - the most of the enemies are equiped with guns and energy pistols . Only a couple of guys with a sledgehummers were met who could hit me seriously.

Medium freq emitters can block a good portion of damage from guns/energy guns. Blocking full damage is not necessarily good because it does not let you use your DT. As long as your HP drops down slower that energy shield you'll be fine.

And medium/low freq emitters are good vs burrowers because they can block all their damage and save you from poison.

2. All staff from the stores\looted are better than those you can craft. Only at the end of the game I have created one good shield emitter. All crafted staff should be RARE(components) but BETTER than staff from stores\looted.

Shield emitters are probably the worst example of 'crafting is bad' in this game. Crafted emitters are WAY better that non crafted ones. And you can craft something decent as soon as you complete Junkyard and train becomes operational. Well, you can probably craft it sooner but access to much more shops helps a lot and Underrail is rather rich in electronics shops.

Energy guns also benefit much from crafting.

How good your crafted item will be depends on how will you craft it. Crossbows for example can benefit a lot from their attachments and they have 2 slots for them. Getting xbow of specific model with good quality and 2 attachments of your choice from shops is very unlikely unless you save scum heavily.

And since we're at save scumming, i must say crafting kinda encourages it - quality of components in shops varies, availability varies as well and you need several components to craft an item. Before you get all of what you need there will be better items in shops available. I'm not defending crafting here as save scumming should not be necessary in game.

452

General / Re: Dexterity AP cost reduction

« on: November 16, 2014, 02:04:02 pm »

Using lightning punches with high dex can lead to hillarious results, btw.
Hmm, I haven't actually tried some of those weapons listed here.

Yeah, i've updated my journal original post with tables that take Feats and Items into consideration. Unarmed can be really sexy if you are crazy about Dex.

453

General / Re: Dexterity AP cost reduction

« on: November 16, 2014, 10:12:28 am »

I know, but if you don't call any math function, just assign real to integer, it may get truncated, depending on language.

454

General / Re: Dexterity AP cost reduction

« on: November 16, 2014, 09:34:42 am »

Just like Styg was writing his game in some programming language and not in Excel.

455

General / Re: Dexterity AP cost reduction

« on: November 16, 2014, 09:05:30 am »

By rounding down i mean discarding fractional part:
9.95 becomes 9
4.50 becomes 4
2.02 becomes 2

I should have call it 'floor'. My bad.
If we go to negatives then 'rounding down' would not be 'discarding fractional part' but game does not feature negative AP costs (:

Any weapons generated in previous versions of the game won't be updated with patches. Could those anomalous SMGs be that?

Could be. I could find them in Core City tho, so the problem isn't very old.

456

General / Re: Dexterity AP cost reduction

« on: November 16, 2014, 08:31:45 am »

We get different numbers because of integer rounding. In my case it's rounding down.
I tested about 6 weapons of different categories and AP costs with dex of 14 and 16 and all numbers were correct. It does not mean my table is 100% correct, so if anyone finds an error - let me know.

But... what's up with the two different 5mm jackrabbits and 7.62mm jaguars? Does their base AP cost vary with quality nowadays?

It's a mystery to me as well. I've seen SMG with same caliber but different base ap costs.
I have 7.62 jaguar with 12 AP cost and 600 durability so it' probably not quality issue.
And another 7.62 jaguar with 12 AP with no attachments, so it's not an attachment issue.

457

Suggestions / Re: Riot Gear

« on: November 16, 2014, 08:08:22 am »

Hmm. I spent some time comparing armors and testing stuff... Other than the laminated ballistic panels being crap, IMHO both tactical vest and riot gear are ok (especially crafted ones, best armor option for psionics by far)

But ... psionics can't use their favorite xbows if the use psi beetle shield

Then they should choose psi beetle armor plate (tactical vest) instead of shield

He he, i just understood what you were talking about.
Didn't know you can put Psi Carapace into tac vest's Armor Plate slot.

458

General / Dexterity AP cost reduction

« on: November 15, 2014, 09:31:31 pm »

Hello, zoners.
Look at this shiny, little table i made for ya: (Updated: more tables and bold showing "sweet spots")


AP reduction from Dexterity only:

Weapon	AP	6	7	8	9	10	11	12	13	14	15	16	17	18	19
jackknife	8	7	7	7	6	6	6	5	5	5	4	4	4	3	3
ti-chrome knife	11	10	10	9	9	8	8	7	7	7	6	6	5	5	4
steel knife	12	11	11	10	10	9	9	8	8	7	7	6	6	5	5
unarmed	10	9	9	8	8	8	7	7	6	6	6	5	5	4	4
leather glove	12	11	11	10	10	9	9	8	8	7	7	6	6	5	5
metal glove	16	15	14	14	13	12	12	11	10	10	9	8	8	7	7
5mm Hawker	16	15	14	14	13	12	12	11	10	10	9	8	8	7	7
7.62 Hammerer	20	19	18	17	16	16	15	14	13	12	12	11	10	9	8
9mm Neo Luger	25	24	23	22	21	20	19	18	17	16	15	14	13	12	10
.44 Hammerer	32	30	29	28	26	25	24	23	21	20	19	17	16	15	14
laser pistol	22	21	20	19	18	17	16	15	14	14	13	12	11	10	9
electroshock pistol	30	28	27	26	25	24	22	21	20	19	18	16	15	14	13
plasma pistol	40	38	36	35	33	32	30	28	27	25	24	22	20	19	17
5mm Jackrabbit	10	9	9	8	8	8	7	7	6	6	6	5	5	4	4
5mm Jackrabbit	11	10	10	9	9	8	8	7	7	7	6	6	5	5	4
7.62 Jaguar	12	11	11	10	10	9	9	8	8	7	7	6	6	5	5
7.62 Jaguar	13	12	11	11	10	10	9	9	8	8	7	7	6	6	5
8.6 Steel Cat	16	15	14	14	13	12	12	11	10	10	9	8	8	7	7

AP reduction from Dexterity and Feats (Gunslinger and Lightning Punches):

Weapon	AP	6	7	8	9	10	11	12	13	14	15	16	17	18	19
jackknife	8	7	7	7	6	6	6	5	5	5	4	4	4	3	3
ti-chrome knife	11	10	10	9	9	8	8	7	7	7	6	6	5	5	4
steel knife	12	11	11	10	10	9	9	8	8	7	7	6	6	5	5
unarmed	10	7	7	6	6	6	5	5	4	4	4	3	3	2	2
leather glove	12	9	9	8	8	7	7	6	6	5	5	4	4	3	3
metal glove	16	13	12	12	11	10	10	9	8	8	7	6	6	5	5
5mm Hawker	16	12	11	11	10	9	9	8	7	7	6	5	5	4	4
7.62 Hammerer	20	16	15	14	13	13	12	11	10	9	9	8	7	6	5
9mm Neo Luger	25	21	20	19	18	17	16	15	14	13	12	11	10	9	7
.44 Hammerer	32	27	26	25	23	22	21	20	18	17	16	14	13	12	11
laser pistol	22	18	17	16	15	14	13	12	11	11	10	9	8	7	6
electroshock pistol	30	25	24	23	22	21	19	18	17	16	15	13	12	11	10
plasma pistol	40	35	33	32	30	29	27	25	24	22	21	19	17	16	14
5mm Jackrabbit	10	9	9	8	8	8	7	7	6	6	6	5	5	4	4
5mm Jackrabbit	11	10	10	9	9	8	8	7	7	7	6	6	5	5	4
7.62 Jaguar	12	11	11	10	10	9	9	8	8	7	7	6	6	5	5
7.62 Jaguar	13	12	11	11	10	10	9	9	8	8	7	7	6	6	5
8.6 Steel Cat	16	15	14	14	13	12	12	11	10	10	9	8	8	7	7

AP reduction from Dexterity and Feats (Gunslinger and Lightning Punches) and items (Tabi Boots):

Weapon	AP	6	7	8	9	10	11	12	13	14	15	16	17	18	19
jackknife	8	6	6	6	5	5	5	4	4	4	3	3	3	2	2
ti-chrome knife	11	9	9	8	8	7	7	6	6	6	5	5	4	4	3
steel knife	12	10	10	9	9	8	8	7	7	6	6	5	5	4	4
unarmed	10	6	6	5	5	5	4	4	3	3	3	2	2	1	1
leather glove	12	8	8	7	7	6	6	5	5	4	4	3	3	2	2
metal glove	16	12	11	11	10	9	9	8	7	7	6	5	5	4	4
5mm Hawker	16	12	11	11	10	9	9	8	7	7	6	5	5	4	4
7.62 Hammerer	20	16	15	14	13	13	12	11	10	9	9	8	7	6	5
9mm Neo Luger	25	21	20	19	18	17	16	15	14	13	12	11	10	9	7
.44 Hammerer	32	27	26	25	23	22	21	20	18	17	16	14	13	12	11
laser pistol	22	18	17	16	15	14	13	12	11	11	10	9	8	7	6
electroshock pistol	30	25	24	23	22	21	19	18	17	16	15	13	12	11	10
plasma pistol	40	35	33	32	30	29	27	25	24	22	21	19	17	16	14
5mm Jackrabbit	10	9	9	8	8	8	7	7	6	6	6	5	5	4	4
5mm Jackrabbit	11	10	10	9	9	8	8	7	7	7	6	6	5	5	4
7.62 Jaguar	12	11	11	10	10	9	9	8	8	7	7	6	6	5	5
7.62 Jaguar	13	12	11	11	10	10	9	9	8	8	7	7	6	6	5
8.6 Steel Cat	16	15	14	14	13	12	12	11	10	10	9	8	8	7	7

"Sweet spots" give us more attacks per round than previous value.

459

Bugs / Re: Report spelling/grammar errors

« on: November 15, 2014, 09:58:18 am »

Expose Weakness ability description:

Preform a special melee attack
-> Perform a special melee attack

I also see a grammar problem in description:
"Perform a special melee attack that deals normal damage and reduces target's mechanical resistance and threshold by 50% if it lands for 2 turns."

Should be:
"Perform a special melee attack that deals normal damage and, if it lands, reduces target's mechanical resistance and threshold by 50% for 2 turns."

or:
"Perform a special melee attack that deals normal damage and reduces target's mechanical resistance and threshold by 50% for 2 turns, if it lands."

460

Suggestions / Re: Riot Gear

« on: November 15, 2014, 09:41:04 am »

I actually lied to You, guys. Best riot gear i've seen had 28%/5. That 30%/6 armor was tactical vest looted in Core City. But riot gear of same quality would have same defenses.



My primary problem with riot gear is not that it has too low defense vs melee.
Riot gear has too low defense in general.

I compared it with leather armor vs melee to show how seriously low it's defense is. Even vs melee, it's supposed to specialize against, and with encumbrance twice/thrice as high it's not better (even slightly worse) than leather armors.

Melee is not the only type of attack (yeah, obvious, i know). Melee + bullets also aren't.
There are other forms of attack: crossbows, shrapnel, throwing knives, burrower spikes. And riot armor is too weak vs them IMHO.
I know armor can't specialize vs everything. But i think DT/DR (unspecialized) should go up with encumbrance, but it does not in case of riot gear (just compare it to tactical vest).



To illustrate a problem i'll use item names from Underrail + mechanics with simpler numbers.
Armors have 2 stats: defense and encumbrance. Higher defense is better, higher encumbrance is worse.

Our first armor is Leather Armor:
def 4, enc 2
That's our everyday, average light armor. Boring.

Next armor is Tactical Vest that is specialized vs bullets:
def 3, enc 2, +200% def vs bullets
It has 1 def less that Leather but to compensate it's got +200% vs bullets.

Let's move to something heavier. Another armor is, let's call it, Gladiator Armor (it's not in the game):
def 5, enc 3
That's our everyday, average medium armor.
If we compare it to Leather we'll notice 1 def more. But there's also 1 enc more to balance things out.

Now we want something like Gladiator Armor but specialized vs melee and bullets. Here comes Riot Gear:
def 4, enc 3, +100% def vs melee and +100% def bullets
Comparison of Riot to Gladiator is pretty similar to comparison of Tactival to Leather.

With assumption that 1 point of goodness = 1 def = -1 enc = +200% def vs specific attack type those 4 armors are balanced with each other.
All of those four armors score 2 points of goodness.


But Underrail gives us different Riot Gear. It gives us:
def 3, enc 3, +100% def vs melee and +100% def bullets
This armor scores only 1 point of goodness. That's not good.


Another thing is Underrail does not have regular, everyday, normal Medium Armor that we could compare Riot Gear to.


Styg is going to improve Riot Gear variant that focuses on DT and bullet stopping. That's cool.
My suggestion is to buff DR oriented variant to the level of Pig Leather, it's also DR focused. It would indirectly buff defense vs melee, which is good.

3.
I think the logic is more like this: armor bonuses and penalties are based on components in a somewhat logical fashion and there is no quota of how many resistances an armor should have. The only limit is what the blueprints can take.

If that was true, shouldn't Riot Gear have same encumbrance as Tactical Vest? Both are crafted from same components.

461

Bugs / Re: Ranged hit chance

« on: November 14, 2014, 04:58:09 pm »

Maybe that's 'optimal weapon range' in action (:

462

Suggestions / Re: Riot Gear

« on: November 13, 2014, 06:16:58 pm »

Wow, that's some really valuable Wall of Text, epeli. What about you make a new thread in General Discussion starting with that Wall of Text? Discussion about dodge/evasion/THC most definitely deserves it's own thread.
I'm impatient to answer to this but if we continue this discussion here riot gear issue will be overshadowed.

Otherwise, I would look into armor stats first and consider dodge/evasion a secondary concern.

And here's my problem - riot gear is not better armor than leather ones or tact vest if we ignore encumbrance. It's only better if:
you fight against melee
AND
you have shield
AND
you don't care about dodge (because shield and you almost certainly want galvanic or regenerative vestment, both of which have 30% enc.)
AND
there are no ranged enemies as well because shield does not help against them at all, it only slows you down.

And we should not forget very important problem with shields - they limit you to one handed weapons only (and no, SMGs are all two handed). That may not be a problem with some builds but you can't, for example, equip sniper rifle and pistol, and start battle with powerful alpha strike from big range, using sniper.

463

Suggestions / Re: Change DT calculations for hybrid damage types.

« on: November 13, 2014, 05:27:13 pm »

@epeli you are right about cryokinesis being a hybrid damage type, i forgot about this. But if there are more hybrid attacks in the game it only makes this change more necessary.

It's important to notice a difference between hybrid damage type and multiple channels of damage (which can use different types or not).
Electroshock weapons would fall under multiple channels category. They have mechanical and zap damage types. Both channels would need to go through full DT. Just like burst or magic missile from D&D - multiple projectiles, each of which needs to go through DT separately.


I have 2 more cards i'm gonna use to convince You to my suggestion.

1.
There are energy shields in game. They are using DT mechanics to reduce damage. The difference is that any damage absorbed by shields is substracted from shield's capacity.

What happens if we shoot plasma at someone with his shield activated? believe it or not but damage from plasma (whole damage) needs to go through shield's DT only once. There is no separate substraction for fire and plasma. If plasma damage is 120 (60 fire, 60 energy) and shield has 80 DT vs very high speed attacks, damage that will bypass shield is 120 - 80 = 40 (20 fire + 20 energy). Not 0.

Game is inconsistent here.

2.
Say we have 25% fire DR and 75% energy DR. We get attacked by 100 dmg (half fire, half energy). What damage should we take? The answer comes easily - it's 50. And this is correct answer.

Why 50? Game takes average* of your fire DT and energy DT and uses it to reduce damage.

(25% + 75%) / 2 = 50%
100 - 100 * 50% = 50

You can try it with different DR values if you wish.

But if damage is reduced by DT it has to go through sum of fire and energy DTs. Why SUM and not average this time?
That's another inconsistency.


* This is actually weighted average but since damage is split exactly in half between fire and energy it gets reduced to normal average.

You mean with a high level attachment I can create a weapon that nearly always crits? Damn, I gotta try that.

No. I mean energy weapons get increased energy consumption (to already high consumption) by installing attachments.

Really, energy weapons, plasma in particular, suffer from problems other weapons didn't even heard about

464

General / Re: Beta

« on: November 13, 2014, 03:25:49 pm »

By 'beta' i meant whatever developers mean by it (:
Since we have alpha, beta is next logical step.

but after the next update there will be more word on what's the plan.

Glad to hear this.

465

General / Re: [Poll] Which XP system do you prefer?

« on: November 13, 2014, 03:20:41 pm »

"Could not cast your vote. Error returned by server: Invalid request"


Oddity. You get it for exploration and i just love to explore worlds in RPGs. Also, in fights where i have some allies i don't need to 'last hit' my enemies to earn XP.