Messages

31

General / Re: Sledgehammer build

« on: June 01, 2016, 04:36:57 pm »

Yes but it requires 10 AGI which means dumping either DEX, CON or significally weakening STR and thus damage/precision. Neither a good option IMO, at least not for a crit based sledgehammer build. 1 x 20 AP every 10 rounds is just not good enough here, unlike for snipers/xbow guys that can additionally utilize stealth for Snipe and generally profit from 0 armor penalty. Dodge/evasion at 10 AGI  and 50 - 60 armor penalty is lower than with 3 AGI at 0 armor penalty, that's too much of a waste.

It could be ok for a glass canon though but I can't tell. I never played melee glass cannons except for PSI monks which heavily relied on CC with psi, Combo and Fatal Throw. Those are nerfed now so not even that is reliable anymore.
Maybe you could do 10+++++/7/9+/3/3/3/5 and swap between infused syphoner and rathound leather whenever you need critical chance vs extra dodge/evasion. Juggernaut gets replaced by Nimble for 0 armor penalty so Heavyweight is out. This way you're trading critical damage for critical chance.
Major problem is you can't cause bleeding with leather armor so probably a better option would be to go for 6 INT, take both Nimble and Armor Sloping for quite low armor penalty and still get hp bonus from the sturdy vest + bleeding from one serrated blade.

How ever you turn it around I still think that a heavy CON based sledgehammer build makes more sense and that weapon seems to be built around it.
Next time I do a sledgehammer run I think I'll try the psi mix again for max possible critical chance (still with metal armor). With adrenaline it's 3 tungsten hits + pummel on a stunned, strongly debuffed target thanks to Electrokinesis + Electrokinetic Imprint. Pretty much the PSI build I posted a while ago but with PSI feats earlier and Taste for Blood later as it doesn't offer AP reduction anymore.
One nice advantage is how easy you can get around that dangerous adrenaline fatigue debuff. When you get it you can cast Force Field and often force enemies to wait their turns out or walk around (and waste time) until fatigue wears off. Force Field is also very beneficial vs ranged enemies when you have problems closing in because of medicore movement points caused by high armor penalty or when you can bottleneck a larger group to go through a one tile wide corridor you created and set on fire with a molotov, and pick them from the corner one by one. Underrail is not always about everybody standing in the open and you killing them before they kill you. "All we need is just a little patience... patience... mwmmmhmhyeahhh." 

[edit] I'll have to ditch Bone Breaker in future. It's usefulness is just too limited for sledgehammers. Most things that (actually have ribs) end up dead in one hit anyway because of the crit damage. It used to be pretty good for a DEX based monk that could hit for 4 AP with metal gloves - before the DEX and TfB nerf.

32

General / Re: Final part a trick/hack to stop the respawn?

« on: May 29, 2016, 12:01:31 pm »

There are sevreral different player made maps which can help you to quickly navigate through DC: http://www.underrail.com/wiki/index.php?title=Maps

33

General / Re: Sledgehammer build

« on: May 28, 2016, 04:55:22 pm »

Later on it's not that much of a problem as you can actually afford to max stealth and the penalty can be reduced with soft padding, not to negate the string but it helps. But yeah 3 x tichrome hits demand tabbis so best to stick with that anyway.

34

General / Re: Sledgehammer build

« on: May 28, 2016, 04:22:22 am »

Gave the build another go and it seems the option with 2 x tungsten + 1 x fist can't go vs 3 tichrome sledgehammer hits. Buffs/debuffs are great indeed but they can't make up for the loss of damage because of 2 vs 3 hammer hits/turn.

This sledgehammer was crafted with a 119 quality tichrome bar, 104 electroshock generator and 134 plasma core. It's still not top quality but it already greatly outdamages a 2 x tungsten + fists combination.


So the classic strategy remains the best - keep both, tungsten and tichrome hammers in active slots and use Pummel when you can. Another advantage of tichrome is you can throw a grenade and still hit twice with the hammer.

35

General / Re: Sledgehammer build

« on: May 24, 2016, 10:47:50 pm »

There are no mobs in the game with that much health, so what's the point? If you can't move to their position then the damage will be not 2-4k, but 0 ^_^

Health is usually not the issue, mechanical damage resistance is. There are critters and heavily armored guys near mechanical damage immunity. Unlike somthing like a xbow user, a sledgehammer build is actually very good in overcoming it because it ignores damage threshold, damage is done in large spikes, bonus electrical damage is really good and Expose Weakness turns everybody into a paper bag. I'd still say you can never have too much damage.

Mobilty can indeed become a problem. There are many open areas with little to no opportunities to kite behind a corner or a doorway. Stealth pays off big in Underrail, even for a 50% armor penalty guy. Anything above 60% is not worth it for melee IMO. Heavyweight critical bonus is of little use if you need most, if not all of your AP to reach the target. One exception that comes into mind is the arena boss.

For medium/high armor penalty builds it's actually better to use striders instead of tabbis (beware of sneak penalty). Movement speed increase scales with spring quality, eventually reaching 30+ % in speed increase. That's alot better than 10% tabbis have. Sledgehammer also doesn't really need to rely on tabbis -1 AP bonus. The only thing that becomes unusable is hitting 3 times/turn with a tichrome hammer because of 17 AP per hit. Still not a big deal as you can use the supperior tungsten two times + Pummel and for the turns where you don't have Pummel you use a tichrome serrated knife as your secondary weapon. With as little as 6 DEX (you need it for Cheap Shots anyway) you hit with it for exactly 10 AP - perfect alignment with a 20 AP tungsten hit and same AP like consumables. However I have a few problems with a knife in this build: Weak synergy with STR and they don't apply for neither Bone Braker and Heavyweight. A leather combat glove is naturally much stronger here and in the case of the two unique leather gloves if offers great debuffs.

The problem with the gloves on the other hand is, at 7 DEX without tabbis they hit for 11 AP so doesn't fit with a 20 AP tungsten hit. Luckily food offers flexibility here. The solution is to keep both, good striders and tabbis on the character and mix accordingly with either eel sandwitch or rathound barbeque.
When you need mobility: Eel sandwich -> 8 DEX + striders -> 10 AP hit for gloves.
When you need damage: Rathound barbeque -> 16 STR + tabbis -> still 10 AP for gloves.

At this point in buildcrafting it might be a good investment to sacrifice Pummel for Wrestling. When you fight vs. dangerous 1-2 enemies you can't kill quickly it's usually better to put strong bufffs/debuffs first - Taste for Blood, Vile Weaponry, Bone Breaker, contaminated (the Claw) and Wrestling which is good vs both melee and ranged. Cth debuff is flat - it can't be compensated with high skill and I don't think that anything is immune to the tackle debuff. All other Feats are still more important so I'd take this as the very last one. If you'd prefer Pummel instead of Wrestling take it at level 2 and Opportunist at level 22. As a heavy trap user I'm personally sticking to early Opportunist.



It's too bad that Juggernaut doesn't count total armor penalty but only the suit. Otherwise this build would be best played with an infused rathound leather armor with 50% armor penalty (would be possible with metal helmet). Top quality can reach up to 15% critical chance which would in this case double the chance! Good critical damage is only as good as the critical chance it requires.

It can be done by going low on armor penalty and dumping Juggernaut along with Heavyweight, favoring DEX instead of CON for even better critical chance but then it doesn't make sense to focus on sledgehammer anymore as there is much less hitpoints without metal armor + sturdy vest. It would suit better a metal glove/power fist build.

36

General / Re: My SMG/Sniper build

« on: May 24, 2016, 07:49:54 pm »

Critical damage bonus for firearms can be also be improved by the Sharpshooter feat (30%) and Anatomically-Aware Scope (50%). Hornet is better specced for precision with a normal scope, and Chimera for critical damage. Chimera also has incendiary ammo craftable which makes sense for the purpose of Ambush.

37

General / Re: My SMG/Sniper build

« on: May 24, 2016, 08:11:34 am »

Unlike hitchance it's not capped at 95%.

38

General / Re: My SMG/Sniper build

« on: May 24, 2016, 06:35:01 am »

Ambush only requires you to stay in darkness and target in light. No stealth mode or stealth skill needed. You'll notice the difference when your target is easier to hit because of halved evasion. Sometimes it's not obvious though.

39

General / Re: Requesting pistol build from Wildan

« on: May 23, 2016, 10:56:31 pm »

Hmm interesting, I don't think I ever found a dropped weapon with rapid reloader on it but I also never pay attention to base AP of those weapons. RR is indeed among the most rare components, along with napalm c. Too bad for the 90% quality of components though. Styg should make it 95%, just because it's the cool magical number in RPGs.

40

General / Re: My SMG/Sniper build

« on: May 23, 2016, 10:52:40 pm »

Sorry for digging this out but those numbers are wrong. You cant have quick tinkering and 10/10/10 in those stats. Also that glass cannon sniper you suggested will have only 15 PE

There is no need to raise STR to 5 for snipers. You can leave it at 4 and use rathound barbeque to get a temporary +1 buff. In older game versions food buffs lasted for 5 minutes I believe so it was a bit tricky. They last 20 minutes now which is plenty and you only need to keep a few with you at any time (+ a couple extra for DC). It's also possible to do the same with only 3 STR if you use the unique Rathound Regalia (+1 STR) but it's a risky armor because of +200% fire damage you get. Ancient rathound boots/tabbis can help here. One thing that sucks about that armor is the 10% speed bonus doesn't stack with 10% tabi speed bonus or boot springs. I didn't realize this for a long time.
Also Blitz is not possible before level 24 unfortunatelly. Well it is, but than you'd have to postpone either Quick Tinkering or Thick Skull to level 24 and those are like MirddinEmris said more important.

Total # of statpoints at level 24 is 46 so you'll see it fits. 3/7/10/10/10/3/3. You're right about the glass cannon build though. Max possible PER would actually be 13 here, my bad.

If you go for Blitz I'd say it's easier to play an assault rifle/sniper build than with SMGs. You could dump DEX for a SMG build too but then you have to rely on weaker SMGs like 5mm. 11 AP assault rifle builds work very well with Blitz and adrenaline because of 33 AP burst.
With 50 AP you can either:
fire twice with the RR Spearhead sniper.
throw a grenade + burst once with a 11 AP AR (7.62 Hornet/RR 9mm Hornet/RR 8.6mm Chimera)

With 70 AP you can:
burst twice for 66 AP. Usually good for 2nd turn when you can use Blitz.
throw a grenade + fire two sniper shots. (usually good in dark areas when you're under adrenaline, but still have Aimed Shot cooldown (3rd turn). Molotov causes enough light for sniper Ambush.
With 35 AP (fatigue) you can still burst once or fire sniper once and use medicine.

Thick Skull is amazing indeed but I don't need to rely on it for permadeath. 6 CON + relatively full, strong shield + regnerative vest + Fast Metabolism is most of the times good enough to survive the stun consequences which are getting more frequent in later parts of the game. CON also passively buffs fortitude so unlike glass cannons you can resist stun more likely now and then.

Also in this case you don't have to invest 6 points in STR for ARs. 5 + barbeque is fine and you don't need to save an extra point with the regalia as you'll have 16 PER anyway in the end.
I call this guy Sniper Commando:



3 INT is a problem for crafting only early in the game. Thanks to Uncanny Dodge you can keep dodge relatively low and still be good in avoiding melee pretty well (you'll obliterate them with burst fire + Commando + Concentrated Fire anyway). This will save lots of skill points later when you stop investing in dodge. So leaving INT at 3 will pay off big late in the game when you actually have 16 PER and can still craft all the guns and special ammo (even 8.6mm rounds) IF you make use of player home crafting bonus and Junkyard Surprise. Crafting a shield with 150+ quality might not be possible with 3 INT but it's not a big deal, hard to find that quality components anyway. You can distribute skills something like this:
http://underrail.info.tm/?build=AwGloJgVhGGYQEZQDYloQxcYsWAqfbGEkFAFlivCWCrIoHYQckIaDbb8JW0isBFBZQAnORhN8TBEypMpEgBzAgA

[edit]One small tip: In order to use Snipe you DON'T have to be hidden away from enemy. The only requirement is to be in stealth mode so even if the enemy is aware of you (red eye) you can still perform Snipe if he doesn't shoot at you (you'll be forced out of stealth mode regardless if you get hit or not) but thanks to 16 PER (good precision), Sprint and 10 AGI you can sometimes get away far enough for the enemy to waste all his MP and AP to close in. Even easier if the enemy is under suppression. Just remember that you need 10 AP to enter stealth and there is a small cooldown on it. So let's say you're under fatigue, have only 35 AP, are too far too have good burst precision, it might actually be a good idea to shoot once with the sniper, get distance and use those 11 AP left to go into stealth and hope the enemy will just try to reposition. Next turn it's Snipe time.

41

General / Re: How important is dodge/evasion?

« on: May 20, 2016, 09:10:05 pm »

So 0 dodge and 0 evasion char with full plate is not a good idea. Good to know. I guess 0 stealth is also bad idea since monsters will get always first turn unless you have high agility.

If by full plate you mean metal armor crafted with multiple plates (very high armor penalty) then ofcourse it makes sense to leave defensive skills at 0 because they will be reduced below usefulness anyway. Check my first post again where I explained how armor penalty plays a role, no need for sarcasm. 

Metal armor doesn't neccessarily has to be that restrictive however. With Armor Sloping selfcrafted TiChrome and Supersteel variants paired with Nimble can get the penalty low enough to still be worth investing in both dodge and evasion. That character will not dodge/evade as good as a 0 penalty Nimble guy but it's a good mixture of both ends of the defense spectrum - Damage avoidance vs. damage mitigation. We can't be exceptionally good in both.

There is also a different damage reduction that gets applied after the armor: Conditioning (10-15+%), Stoicism (1-24%), lifting belt (10%), aegis (15%), morphine shot (50%), mushroom brew (10%) and ancient rathound leather (2 x 5%). Naturally it's more of an all or nothing approach. 10 - 15% reduction is of no big help but if you can combine most of those you can become almost immune to mechanical damage and reduce a big deal of everything else too (drugs have a rather short duration though and morphine shot can kill you). Most characters can't make a optimal use of this but there are exceptions like DEX-independent sledgehammer wielders or max CON assault riffle/sniper guys in full ancient rathound leather gear.

There are indeed lots of enemies capable of stun, incap etc. but certainly not so many to render dodge/evasion useless. With good use of stealth and game experience in general it becomes easy to determine who should be taken out first. Enemies are not randomized (I wish they were to some degree though).

42

General / Re: How important is dodge/evasion?

« on: May 20, 2016, 04:57:05 pm »

Btw i got idea for this thread from Rpg codex where guy stated that evasion/dodge is useless.

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/underrail-the-incline-awakens-released.105387/page-231

Almost too painful to read some of the nonsense he spews out. I honestly believe he's mentally challenged and has no other choice than to rely on savescumming in every encounter.

To sum the answer up: Comparison between 0 and max effect of dodge/evasion is getting hit 19 out 20 times vs. 2 out of 20, or roughly 10 times less shield/health.

43

General / Re: How important is dodge/evasion?

« on: May 18, 2016, 11:23:02 pm »

Zero investment in dodge/evasion results in 95% hitchance for the enemy unless it's reduced by external factors such as darkness, distance, burst penalty, move and shoot penalty etc (flat amount).

Basic precision is 70% - the enemy has the same attack skill vs your defense skill. It can be reduced by 60% max if your defense is twice as high. So if enemy has 140 melee skill, then you'd need 280 in dodge to bring his hitchance down to 10% which is lowest possible. That's why the arena boss is so hard to hit unless stunned, incapped, immobilized or have his exceptionally high dodge negated by any other means. For the same reason are traps and sledgehammer Pummel so effective against him.

Beware that both dodge and evasion (along with stealth and MP) are reduced by armor penalty (the same amount in %), so having 280 (or any) points in dodge is pointless for a 80% armor penalty character, leaving only 56 effective points as defense. I usually don't bother rasing dodge at all if late game I can't have 150+ effective points together with tabbis/syphoner armor. Otherwise dangerous enemies will hit regardless. One exception is the Uncanny Dodge feat that works well even with little dodge.

Evasion on the other hand is always useful even with medicore values because in worst case, if it doesn't help much to avoid ranged attacks at least it always reduces AoE damage to some degree and anything is welcome against one-hit killers like high tier frag grenades/mines.

44

General / Re: Requesting crossbow build from Wildan

« on: May 18, 2016, 03:23:26 pm »

Armor Sloping works only for metal armors and those require 8 STR to wear without penalty. STR makes little sense for knife fighters because of weak STR damage bonus for them and no STR based feats like unarmed fighters have them (Wrestling/Bone Breaker).

Weaponsmith can work well to compensate for the loss of offensive ability though. For now probably the best thing for a knife build is to make a strong bond with throwing, especially grenades and to focus on it as early as possible. In order to bring both grenade feats (Grenadier/Three-Pointer) in AND weaponsmith one more feat has to go and that should be Cut-Throat and here is why. Cut-Throat requires 30 AP to perform and with only 20 AP left there are 4 options:
1. Attack 3 times with the melee knife (18 AP) which is pointless considering that throwing is the best asset in this build but remains unused.
2. Attack once with the melee knife (6 AP) and throwing knife (11 AP) which will often not be enough for a Fatal Throw kill (18 AP refund) and again leaves grenades unused.
3. Throw a grenade (15 AP) which will do good damage but leave only 5 AP left - not enough to use a throwing knife or even a single melee attack.
4. Pop in adrenaline shot and with 40 AP do all of the above but while it's not a rare drug it would still be a waste opening a majority of battles with it and can be dangerous when fatigue kicks in and the bulk of enemy force just arrivied attracted by the sound. Should be kept for strategical use to overcome a disadvantage only when needed.

So the best thing is to forget about Cut-Throat, sneak around until enemies group together as close as possible, then enter combat mode and open up with a grenade, kill a wounded survivor (less than 25% hp) with a throwing knife getting 18 AP back, use Sprint and with remaining 42 AP attack exactly 7 times with the melee knife which makes a full use of all AP. Second turn starts with plenty of MP for 20 AP Blitz bonus which means all of the above can be repeated plus 3 extra melee attacks or use adrenaline for a total of 108 AP (including 18 AP Fatal Throw refund) allowing for up to 16 melee attacks. To improve the crit chance even further infused rathound leather armor would be a good choice as main armor.

Build progression:
S 3
D 10++++++
A 10
C 3
P 3
W 5
I 6

01 - Recklessness
01 - Sprint
02 - Nimble
04 - Quick Tinkering
06 - Grenadier
08 - Fatal Throw
10 - Three-Pointer
12 - Ripper
14 - Critical Power
16 - Cheap Shots
18 - Taste for Blood
20 - Expose Weakness
22 - Blitz
24 - Weaponsmith

This way knifes are far from useless but like I said, they still seem inferior to combat gloves which have a stun potential with Combo and good debufs with Wrestling and Bone Breaker (knife fighter has the Kukri though). A DEX based unarmed fighter has worse critical chance and damage but can reach 4 AP attacks which equals many attacks even without Blitz.

45

Suggestions / Re: Why no shotguns/rocket launchers??

« on: May 18, 2016, 06:50:22 am »

I hope so Epeli. One day I'd love to see stuff like a two weapon special knife attack, properly animated.