Messages

181

General / Re: What to look for in weapons?

« on: May 16, 2017, 06:47:07 pm »

Ok, i understand your point about initiative (i like high initiative myself), though after playing sniper on hard i say that the only place you really need it is the Arena.

Arena is probably the best example and it's where the bonus initiative will be the most useful, but there's plenty of other fights where you won't be able to start from stealth.

Bandits outside SGS if you decide to confront them, bandits in GMS if you decide to talk with the leader, Rathound King if you decide to ask Edgar for help/tell him a rathound joke, Acid Hunters, Black Crawler Gang, Faceless Commander and his troops if you refuse to hand out the Cube, getting caught sneaking around at port Zenith  or simply making a mistake while in stealth and getting spotted by enemies. There's more and while many of those can be also started out from stealth, you will miss the dialogue and possibly satisfaction. Pistols allow you to start the fight on your own terms regardless of your choices/mistakes.

With something like 7 Agi 7 Dex and Paranoia, you already have quite high initiative of 24.

Having 20% chance to act before Carnifex is not exactly what I would call "high". You can expect most enemies to have at least 20+ initiative , 15 at best. Considering you will be usually facing multiple enemies, your chance to act first drops considerably.

And i only need to burst once or twice to kill this guy. Even with 95% accuracy there is a chance for miss, but i don't remember two bursts failing to solve a problem of melee enemies trying to get close.

I seriously doubt one or two bursts were enough to kill Carnifex, much less the problem of him getting next to you on the first turn. Also doubt they were enough to deal with other tough melee enemies such as Balor etc. Anything else is squishy enough to be killed with a pistol with no problems.

On the other hand, not only do pistols increase your chance of him not getting the first turn considerably, even if he does get the first turn, Kneecap Shot is going to keep him at bay in the next one.

It's also AP friendly since Kneecap shot doesn't kill your enemy and you need to fire your rifle to finish the job, while after two bursts with smg i still can shot some other guy with Spearhead and since i didn't have to move (because the reason i had to move is dead now), i don't have penalties for that.

This assumes you are fighting multiple melee enemies tanky enough to necessitate an entire burst to kill them. In my experience this never happens. The only melee enemies that may necessitate the use of a secondary are either swarms of rathounds/spawns/crawlers, stealthy cutthroats or Arena gladiators. In the first case, pistol damage is adequate. In the second and third one it's a 1v1 fight.

Also, 5% accuracy on high Per character with night vision goggles is not very useful.

It is when it matters. I doubt you will have 95% chance to hit against Carnfiex.

You can probably see I mention Carnifex a lot, that's because he's a perfect example of a truly tough melee enemy.

And in case of 2+ melee guys, SMGs have even bigger advantage since burst doesn't have cooldown unlike Kneecap shot.

If 2+ melee guys managed to get close they are rathounds/spawns/crawlers. Pistol damage is perfectly adequate in that case.

And SMGs have natural synergy with snipers because they get increased damage from Smart goggles - around 30-50% increase on ALL your damage from SMG. Compared to that 75% increase in critical damage (50% on Neo Luger, since it has 90% base crit damage) with less than 10% crit chance, is not very much.

This was really a minor point because I don't consider damage to be a priority for the secondary weapon. Pistols will get the smart bonus on kneecap shot and point shot/rapid fire if you decide to take them. If you don't, it's not a big deal.

The only utility i see from pistols that i can't get from SMGs is initiative increase.

Which is the most imporant one. But the point is I don't see why would you go with SMGs instead of ARs if you are so concerned with damage and don't take Kneecap Shot. ARs will deal more damage, allow you to ignore DEX completly and will only need Commando. You don't even need to spend another attribute point on STR, you can just eat rathound barbecue until you get the Steyr. Getting hit by crippling strike is easy enough to fix with adrenaline.

SMGs are even better to deal with small trash mobs since they have less AP cost than pistols  (even if damage is slightly lesser, it's more than enough for them) in case there is only one or two of them. And when there is a lot, bursts are even more effective AP to kill count wise.

Trying to kill multiple enemies with a burst is very unreliable if you ask me. The point about SMGs having less AP cost but enough damage to kill trash is valid, but doesn't make up for the lack of utility to me.

Some weapons have more ups than downs while others have more downs than ups. Of course, given sufficient degree of optimization (though we can't assume that for new guys), most weapon choices are viable in a sense of being able to finish the game (except for pure throwing knives build, perhaps). That doesn't mean that the difference is in preferences only - pistols are weaker than SMGs, both as primary and as secondary.

I disagree. To me it seems it's simply a difference in playstyle. It sounds like you are not really using the sniper rifle as a primary and the SMG as a secondary, it sounds more like you are using them both to a similar degree.

In my multiple sniper playthroughs, including a few ironmans (only one successful though), I barely ever use my secondary. In the vast majority of situations there is simply no reason to. Once I get the spearhead it's not uncommon to just take a step back and shoot with the move penalty, a 15% precision penalty is not a big deal when the hit chance was 95% to begin with. The secondary is only reserved for swarms of trash or truly dangerous melee enemies.

182

General / Re: What to look for in weapons?

« on: May 16, 2017, 11:14:37 am »

To be honest, i never understood having pistols as secondary weapons for snipers.

I will gladly explain it.

The point in using pistols as a secondary for snipers instead of SMGs/ARs is that to me damage of the secondary is not a top priority. Good damage is welcome of course, but it's the sniper rifle that is supposed to be the prime damage dealer.

For me what matters the most is utility other than damage, things that complement your sniper rifle and allow you to get rid of whatever makes you unable to use it instead of simply replacing it when someone gets close.

The strong points of pistols are:
1. +7 initiative. This is probably the most important thing, as together with paranoia this allows you to easily reach 30+ initative without too much effort. I can imagine some people thinking that you don't need initiative whn you have stealth, but this couldn't be more wrong. There are plenty of fights where starting the fight with stealth is not an option, Arena being the best example. Other than that, there are a few fights here and there that are initiated after dialogue/cutscene. Not to mention those times where you simply make a mistake and enemies get a drop on you.

I feel like having high initiative is really underrated.

2. Neo Lugers with laser sights have a total of 15% precision bonus (the tight, reliable damage range is very good as well). SMGs and ARs have at most 10%.This makes them the best choice for making sure that Kneecap Shot hits which allows you to make space between you and the melee enemy, which furher allows you to use the sniper rifle. The damage of the Kneecap Shot is irrelevant, I only need it to hit.

3. Pistols have a natural synergy with sniper rifles because Sharpshooter also works with pistols, which basically makes them have 30% more crit damage that SMGs/ARs, even more after Critical Power. This is minor because as I said damage is not a big deal, but it's something to consider.

They require considerable investment to be just ok.

I wouldn't say it's that considerable. Gunslinger and Kneecap Shot are the bare minimum that you need in order to use pistols the way I described. Point Shot and Rapid Fire are just welcome bonuses that you don't necessarily need. Opportunist and Execute are completely unnecessary.

SMGs on the other hand are sniper's best friends - with only two feats (Commando + Spec Ops) you will be able to deal quite a significant amount of damage to everyone who dares to get close to you.

I fail to see why you would even bother with SMGs as a secondary if you are not going to take Kneecap Shot. If all you are concerned about is damage up close and don't intent to use the secondary to make space, you will be better off with ARs that wil ldeal more damage and require even less investment.

I see SMGs as a middle road between pistols and ARs. Not as much damage as ARs, but more utility in the form of no STR requirement and Kneecap Shot. Not as much utility as pistols, but more damage.

Even without a lot of points in Dex you can get 2-3 bursts per turn and since Burst is considered a special attack, your damage will increase even further due to Smart goggles and modules.

The problem with bursts is that while they look good on paper and certainly work good when the build is centered around them, they are usually overkill for a secondary. I don't need to put 5 bullets into a rathound or a spawn, which is what I will usually use my secondary for.

Anything tougher that that, I'm using my primary. The secondary is simply means to get my primary to work, so to say.

It's a different approach. All 3 options (pistols, SMGs, ARs) have their ups and downs, it all comes down to preference.

183

General / Re: What to look for in weapons?

« on: May 15, 2017, 12:42:29 pm »

Now that my character is around level 10 I really don't know what to look for in weapons. I have been investing points into crafting but have not yet crafted any weapons because I am not sure what is good.

With sniper rifles I would say you generally want to focus on:

1. Being able to shoot twice per turn ( so getting the AP cost to 25 or less, or 35 and using Adrenaline/Blitz)
2. Precision bonuses (this is only true up to a certain point, I will talk about this later)
3. Critical damage bonus
4. Special attack damage bonus
5. Critical chance bonus
6. Base damage

Usually in that order, but this can change depending on preference, how far are you in the game and a ton of other factors.

Being able to shoot twice instead of once is a pretty big deal. That way you can one-shot 2 enemies on the first turn with Snipe + Aimed Shot and later be able to deal twice the amount of damage with regular shots, not to mention yuor chance of getting a random crit is twice as big.

Precision bonuses are extremely important early on when your hit chance is still not all that reliable. It doesn't really matter how much damage you can deal in a single shot if you miss. As your guns skill increases and when you find night vision goggles, precision bonuses stop being as important.

Crit damage is the bread and butter of snipers. Their high base damage together with high critcal damage and crits on demand with Aimed Shot allows you to deal enough damage to one shot basically anything in the game. Stack as much critical damage as possible, but remember precision might be more important early on.

Special damage bonus is something you get from smart goggles/weapons with smart modules. It multiplies theoverall damage of anything that sn't a regular shot (so Aimed Shot and Snipe for snipers) by a pretty big percentage. It's like a cherry on the cake thatm akes your already high critical damage even higher.

Critical chance is nice, but not nearly as important as everything above. Aimed Shot already provides a reliable guranteed crit every 3 turns. Get more critical chance when you can, but never at the cost of anything else.

Base damage is not nearly as important as rate of fire, critical damage or special attack damage. The difference between different sniper rifles are mostly negligible compared to how much of a difference other factors make. It's something you can safely ignore in favour of all other things.

When I'm playing sniper builds, this is how my weapon progression looks like:

Early game: 8.6 Corsair/Harbinger with bipod, smart module and standard scope. The frame is not really a choice, it's just that those two are what you are most likely to find early on. I choose 8.6 instead of 12.7 because I don't like the idea of 50 AP cost- any effect that reduces your AP, even by 1, will make you unable to shoot and effectively useless. The bonus base damage is not worth it. Bipod and standard scope for 20% bonus precision. Smart module for special attack damage.

Alternatively, you can go with 7.62 Corsair with the regular scope and no bipod. This will cost only 35 AP to shoot, so you can shoot twice with Adrenaline/Blitz. Don't reccomend it though, it's a little awkward and less consistent.

Mid game: 8.6 Reaper with bipod, smart module and anatomically-aware scope. The reaper frame has 25% crit bonus so it's a no-brainer, use it as soon as you find it. Anatomically-aware scope has 50% crit damage bonus and at this point we can deal with 10% less precision that the standard scope would give.

Again, a 7.62 reaper with no bipod is an option.

Late game: 7.62 spearhead with rapid reloader, smart module and anatomically-aware scope. Spearhead frames are only available in 7.62 and cost 30 AP instead of the usual 35. Together with rapid reloader (-20% AP cost) this drops to 24 AP, just enough to shoot twice instead of once every turn. Spearheads can't use bipods, but at this point we don't need added precision anymore.

All of this is crafted. You can't get most of those mods on looted/bought stuff, spearhead sniper rifles are crafting only as well.

I also have assess to the Drugnov but it doesn't seem very good

It can be good. The 25 AP cost makes it basically like a Spearhead but without the 50% crit damage and special attack damage snice it doesn't have any mods. This will make your damage quite low compared to other options, but smart goggles and crit damage from Sharpshooter/Critical Power should make it enough to still one-shot regular enemies. Give it a try.

I have been using pistols as my close range gun of chose but the damage has really fallen off and I can only do 2 shots a turn with them. Would I better of just equipping two snipers(one for the first shot, and one for the closer range action)?

Equipping two snipers doesn't make much sense. The whole point of a secondary is to use it when your primary is not an option.

Sniper rifles have very harsh move/close range penalties and 5 STR requirement. This means in any situation where you are cornered/have to move/get hit by Crippling strike your hit chance will be reduced greatly.

The point of pistols as a secondary is that they don't suffer from neither of those. They are perfect to take rid of weak enemies that are swarming you (like rathounds or spawns) or to make distance between you and the enemy with Kneecap Shot so you can use the sniper rifle again.

With 7 DEX and Gunslinger the AP cost of 9mm pistols should be 20 AP. If you take Point Shot, you can shoot 3 times per turn. With Rapid Fire you will be able to shoot 4 times.

184

General / Re: Is my build doomed or should I keep playing it?

« on: May 10, 2017, 01:27:40 pm »

My new starting stats are:
S 5
D 7
A 6
C 5
P 10
W3
I 5

That's one attribute point more than you can start with. I would either start with 9 PER (then bump it to 10 at level 4, preferably end up with 15 at level 24) or take a point out of INT or CON.

Just one comment: if you are going to be stealth-based, you should at least consider the Interloper feat, and for this you need AGI 7.

Interloper is very convenient, but hardly something that can make or break the game fo you.

But yeah, if you find the stelath movement speed too slow, it might be worth to take another single point out of PER/INT/CON and bump AGI to 7.

185

General / Re: Is my build doomed or should I keep playing it?

« on: May 10, 2017, 12:06:14 am »

It's really hard to make a truly "doomed" build as long as you don't actually doom it on purpose (like a 3 WIL psi build). Bad choices can be a major handicap but mistakes are a part of the experience.

My goal was to be a stealth based guy who uses  snipers and pistols

That just happens to be my favourite build to play too.

S 5
D 10
A 6
C 5
P 7
W 5
I 3q

It's not perfect, but not that terrible either. Definetly salvageable.

STR is fine. Just enough for all sniper rifles except for one unique towards the end of the game that needs 6, but frankly it's not worth it.

DEX is a little too high in my opinion, unless you want to focus on pistols more than snipers. 7 is my sweet spot on sniper builds with pistols as a secondary, just enough for Gunslinger.

AGI is fine, 6 is just enough to pick Sprint feat.

CON is fine as well. Some people go for 3, but I usually go with 5 just like you did. Extra HP is always nice.

PER is the biggest issue here. You need 10 for Snipe and Sharpshooter feats, both are absolute must have for snipers and high PER is general benefits them a lot. You get 1 new attribute point every 4 levels so you can salvage this, but it will take a lot of time. I usually start with 10, at least 9, and end up with 15/16 by the end of the game.

WIL is too high. There is little reason to go above 3 if you're not using psi, maybe 4 if you want to avoid a penalty to persuasion/mercantile/intimidation.

INT is pretty low. Snipers really benefit from crafting their own rifles and goggles. I wouldn't go below 5, 7 if you want to take crafting feats.

My feats so far are Aimed Shot, Expertise, Gunslinger, and Escape Artists.

That's alright. I would take sprint too, it's really great for that kind of build. As a matter of fact it's great for everyone.

I am fine with changing how I play this character, but if I have made to many mistakes I would rather start over now instead of getting 30 hours in before I relies I can't finish the game.

You should be able to finish the game if you spend the next 3 attribute points in PER. You really want to have Snipe and Sharpshooter as a sniper.

If you want to start over, just make sure you DEX is at least 7 and PER is as high as you can afford, start with 9 at the very least and bump it to 10 at level 4. That's all you need for a sniper/pistol build.

186

Bugs / Re: Impact speed of unique assault rifles

« on: May 04, 2017, 06:30:58 pm »

Everything else seems in order. Goood workan.

187

Bugs / Re: Impact speed of unique assault rifles

« on: April 28, 2017, 04:38:08 pm »

Thanks. I'm also wondering if the complete lack of move and shoot precision penalty on all unique assault rifles (as opposed to 5% on standard ones) is intentional. Also applies to the unique Jawbone crossbow.

188

Bugs / Impact speed of unique assault rifles

« on: April 27, 2017, 08:23:57 pm »

I just noticed that while the impact speed of all regular, craftable Marauder/Huszar/Hornet/Chimera assault rifles is set to high, it's only medium for all unique assault rifles.

I don't know, maybe it's intentional, but it seems a little odd. None of the other unique weapons have impact speeds different that their standard, craftable counterparts.

189

Development Log / Re: Dev Log #52: Jet Skis

« on: April 24, 2017, 10:54:20 pm »

Question: does this mean sniper-only and hammer-only characters are non-viable for the expansion?

I don't think it's going to be bad to the point of not being viable whatsoever. I'm assuming in some situations snipers will be able to reach enemies on jet skis while standing on the ground thanks to their long range.

As for sledges, If you look closely at the gif and the vehicle window, you can clearly see it's equipped with not one but three rocket launchers.

That said it does sound like sledges will struggle a little bit more. We will see. Kinda wish it at least applied to assault rifles as well for the sake of consistency, but oh well.

190

Development Log / Re: Dev Log #52: Jet Skis

« on: April 24, 2017, 04:59:07 pm »

Awesome doesn't even begin to describe how this sounds. You have really outdone yourselves this time. I have so many questions but I will try to keep them to a minimum.

1. Will we be able to use crafting to create better parts or upgrade the jet skis in any other way?

2. Will they be limited only to the expansion, or will we be able to ride them around base game areas as well? I doubt it since there are not that many places in the game where that could be done, but I could imagine riding them around the cave waters.

3. Was making only sledgehammers and sniper rifles unusable (rather than all two-handed weapons, so assault rifles, crossbows, two-handed shotguns, etc.) a balance issue?

Don't get me wrong I'm probably the last person to complain about having to improvise and adapt. It just seems to me like excluding other two-handed weapons would give a whole new reason to consider using smaller weapons such as pistols, SMGs, etc. and make them much more attractive. Particularly firearm pistols, making them even more worthwhile as a "sidearm" type of weapon. I could understand leaving crossbows usable though since they have no alternatives.

191

Suggestions / Re: Small suggestions that don't deserve their own thread

« on: April 21, 2017, 12:06:37 pm »

Coming back to the original topic, I would really like to finally see some sort of indicator for Ambush feat that makes it clear if it will take place. Sometimes it's very hard to tell.

192

Suggestions / Re: Small suggestions that don't deserve their own thread

« on: April 21, 2017, 12:03:53 pm »

Dont see what kind of tactics you planning if you missed your first hit with 5 ironmans or faceless.

Don't know who "ironmans" are, but in case of faceless, there are multiple ways to make up for the missed first shot.

You can simply shoot again. Even if you are using sniper rifles, you can either use Spearhead with a rapid reloader or Dragunov to shoot twice. If you are too early in the game to get them, you can use a 35 AP rifle and have 2 shots with adrenaline or Blitz. If you're using a rifle with a standard scope and/or bipod, you are making it far more likely to hit the first shot but still need to deal with the possiblity of missing.

You can throw a flashbang. In the rare occurence it manages to incapacitate all enemies, you can re-stealth. If it doesn't, you still have to deal with less enemies for the next few turns. Or you can use other crowd control abilites.

You can run if there is enough space and you have a lot of move points. Yuo can also run behind an obstacle to break theline of sight.

You can set up traps in advance.

You can use slowing/immobilizing abilites on the enemy standing in a tight passage making it impossible for others to get through. Bear traps or kneecap shot are a good example.

You can survive the damage with an energy shield, good armor, good dodge/evasion, good HP, drugs such as morphine or aegis, defensive feats, etc.

And more. There are more than a dozen of way to circumvent missing. You simply don't see them because you savescum and never have a real need for them as a result.

On the hard it means you basically dead in their turn.

Definetly not. If missing the first shot means certain death to you, your build is simply too weak or not using all the options available to you. In that case you should either strive to get better and use your options better, or lower the difficulty. Not try to incorporate exploits as an essential part of your tactic.

I dont use savescamming if fighting simple creeps like rathounds and etc... but for  fights on hard first hit means a lot.  But when I have 95% chance to hit and I miss every second fight with first hit, it is just annoying.

If your chance to hit is 95%, you are not missing every second fight, roughly every 20th fight. RNG in Underrail is rather fair and working properly, I did some test in the past to confirm that. You are sipmyl suffering from a cognitive bias- we are far more likely to remember frustrating situations and take pleasant ones as the norm and overlook them, which makes the frustrating ones appear much more common than they actually are. I even attached a picture proving this.

And I am saying you can introduce a perk or something with cooldown or whatever and doesnt change much in gameplay.

How does cooldown change anything when the ability is used before the start of a fight?

For people who like to be Wildan (dunno who it is), you can make a tickbox in character creation to remove this perk from the list... would be hardcore mode or whatever. But again as long as you can reload anytime and you have autosaves every location, it means nothing to me when people trying to not save because its too easy.

Lack of savescumming is not playing "hardcore", it's playing how the game was intended to be played. Again, game should not be designed around exploits. You could savescum the second shot and later claim it should be guranteed because you are dying if it misses.

Common if you play like this, you die, just make new game and forget about saves, that like in real life, no saves. But they will never accomplish this game on hard...

I'm pretty sure Wildan did finish the game on hard with no deaths and reloads, as did I. Just a matter of being familiar with the game and proper planning.

You know, on my ironman sniper runs, the higlight of the entire game is fight with Carnifex. It's something I need to specifically build and prepare for precisely because he's likely to act first and even if he doesn't, it's very likely to miss the first shot. I have like 6 different tactics against him depending on if the first hit misses or not, if the flashbang works or not, if the taser works or not, of the kneecap shot hits or not... you get the idea. Having a guranteed first hit against him would trivialize this. That's how much it affects the game design.

Furthermore, there is a lot of other things that make the game not real, when you move from one area to another with hostilities left in first one, noone come after you... and a lot of things like that... so do not try to make the game looks like real, just by not using save reload.

I don't think me or anyone else said anything about realism. That's not the point, the point is savescumming goes against how the game is designed. Which is not bad by itself because you are free to enjoy the game however you like, but again, it's not something that the game should be designed around.

193

Suggestions / Re: Small suggestions that don't deserve their own thread

« on: April 20, 2017, 10:49:18 pm »

would be nice to have a perk or just permanent fix that first hit which engages the battle have 100% chance to hit.

Way too much of an advantage. Almost game breaking for sniper rifles.

I am pretty sure everyone just click f9 when you miss your first hit.

Definetly not. Not everyone has a habit of savescumming. I'm pretty sure you would just savescum the second shot if the first one was guaranteed, or the third one if the first two were guaranteed. It's a slippery slope.

As long as you can use reload as many times as you want it doesn't affect any aspects of the game, but will save you a lot of time and make gameplay more enjoyable.

It affects the game a lot. You can theoretically savescum perfect accuracy 100% of the time with enough dedication and patience, this doesn't mean the game should simply get rid of accuracy and make everything hit 100% of the time. Personally I enjoy the possibility of missing and accounting for it while planning out my tactic. I's a part of the game.

Savescumming is called that for a reason, it's basically breaking the intended game design. I don't really care what people do in singleplayer games to have fun but the game should never be designed around exploits.

194

General / Re: DC Psimorphic Biocide Grenade (spoiler alert)

« on: April 14, 2017, 07:32:36 pm »

Have you met a certain old man already? If I remember correctly he does have a hint regarding what to do with mycokardia.

195

General / Re: Critical Power + Sharpshooter?

« on: April 07, 2017, 09:26:21 pm »

I admit I never actually used Heavyweight. Sounds like a bug.