Messages

181

General / Re: The lost train, persuasion and joining the Free Drones

« on: October 14, 2017, 06:28:41 pm »

And your way with words must've impressed someone in the drones.

Except they don't if you return the train to Protectorate. Doesn't make any sense.

182

General / Re: Chemical/energy pistols

« on: October 03, 2017, 05:24:06 am »

It seems that hammerer has less AP per shot. 17 AP per shot for strictly inferior pistol is just...sad. It's like it's teasing you with "almost three shots per round" thing. So, in one round you can squeeze 1 more shot more from a hammerer than you can from acid pistol. How acid pistol can be considered "more flexible" is just beyond me.

Also, Carnifex fight is one fight where having more initiative is your best advantage. So, having +7 initiative from Gunslinger is WAY better than anything chemical pistols can bring to the table.

183

General / Re: Chemical/energy pistols

« on: October 03, 2017, 03:41:36 am »

You guys sure ambush works w/ grenades? The description said ranged weapon and off hand I don't remember nade criting with "Ambush!" sign in my game plays.

I don't think it does. I was talking about making lighted area with molotovs, then using regular weapon.

since we are talking about the weapon itself instead of build, anything outside of that particular weapon is irrelevant, as I can also counter the low damage of chemical pistol by saying the damage can be easily made up by an off hand SMG.

Talking about weapon while not talking about how it plays in the actual game is pointless. And if you are using SMG, you are better off using it as main weapon instead of chemical pistol. Greandes are supplementary weapons, they have their own slots and all you need to use them is good DEX and couple points in throwing. I'm not saying that regular pistol is better then chem because you can use grenades. I'm saying that grenades are far superior to incendiary pistol when it comes to activating Ambush, so having this pistol on your hand is not really an advantage.

you are correct that the initial damage of the 0.44 pistol is about 3 times that of a chemical pistols, but the original statement that I replied to said the maximum damage, so my point still stands that the original statement is incorrect counting the on hit effect of chemical pistol.

Don't really see what your point is here. I was just providing numbers to compare those two and hammerer is just superior in EVERY way. Also, that means that your original statement is wrong, because maximum damage is more than 2-3 times higher. It's 4 times higher.

but I feel the difference in direct damage is not flexible when compared to chemical pistol, as the damage of the on hit effect bypass BOTH shield and most armor, the majority damage coming from on hit effect, with very useful effects like entangle and fear that make some fights trivial compared to 0.44, one fight that I can think of is the carnifex fight.

While chemical pistol build has it's enemies entangled and on fire, regular pistol build has it's enemies dead. I don't think i need to explain why later is better.

pistol indeed have special ammos for different situation, but the bypass nature from the chemical pistol is still preferred over, say, W2C, chemical pistol also has corrosive acid that's very useful for the endgame boss and possibly the next expansion.

W2C reduce mechanical resist by 65%. In vast majority of cases it makes this resistance negligible. 10-20% resistance is not enough to put chemical pistols ahead. Maybe you should compare actual numbers instead of intuitively gauging it? Like i did.

Regular pistol build has access to it's ammo for 95% of the game. Corrosive acid is something you get at the endgame only. Also, unlike regular pistol with W2C, chemical pistols loose most of their precious dot when fighting final boss. So i don't think they have any advantage in this fight, since even without any resistance we have an enemy with 2k health and damage form chem pistols is not even close to regular or energy ones.

184

General / Re: Chemical/energy pistols

« on: October 02, 2017, 09:52:55 am »

not even in the same league! so are you just going to ignore my point about the ambush perk which will put the chemical pistol's critical chance even above that of a hammer's

Ambush is not exclusive for chemical pistols. It's even easier to use with throwing molotovs then shooting from a pistol, than with chemical pistols.

Let's see numbers. We have a hammerer pistol with 132 quality frame and incendiary pistol with 133 quality collector and 125 quality dispenser. We have both gun nut and mad chemist. Hammerer does 19-100 damage (60 avg), chemical pisto does 15-25 (20 avg), so there is 3 times the damage. The on hit effect for  a chem pistol is 85% chance to set target on fire dealing 416% damage in two turns. The problem with later is that while this damage is ongoing the target can still attack you. Damage over time is less valuable than direct damage. Then we have the ability to put +50% damage on special attacks on hammerer, and then either +10% accuracy (which also will affect damage per round) or extended magazine (AP economy). We have none of those options for chemical pistol. Then we have the fact that hammerer has range 10 (7 optimal), while incendiary has range of 7 (4 optimal), meaning that you have a lot more flexibility with hammerer than you have with chemical. Accuracy drop from shorter ranges affects dpr too. Then we have the fact that hammerer has crit chance/bonus of 7/125 while chemical has 4/100. Then we have some special feats for firearms, like Gunslinger that does -3 AP per shot and increases initiative by 7 while wielding a regular pistol.

With firearm you also have special ammo, like W2C when you need to deal with mech resist and JPH to increase your damage when target has low mech resist. Explosive bullets also very good and increase your overall damage when you need it.

185

General / Re: The Future of UnderRail and it's main storyline

« on: October 01, 2017, 12:49:41 pm »

I just don't see it. What, now every guy who wants to buy Underrail 2 would need a character of level 25 to play? Game already is hard enough on casuals, if they need to figure out whole build before playing, most of them would just drop it. Any separate title should be able to be played separately, so any guy who picks up a second part could play it witout needing to have a high level character ready.

Of course, there is always an option of just "importing" character from previous game, but that would mean playing 25 lvl character in game that would be designed to be played from lvl 1. No challenge.


What i WOULD like is to have an option of giving a save with finished game so that my choices in first game would affect world in second. The deeper it affects, the better.

186

General / Re: WHERE IS THE MUTAGEN SCANNER

« on: September 30, 2017, 04:09:23 am »

I WANT TO DIE

Remember, cut along, not across.

187

General / Re: Super Slam feat question

« on: September 30, 2017, 04:07:11 am »

Yes. I hit 200 instead of 100 with Balor Hammer, thus when I miss I lose more.

I...see. Well, i guess that's where i end it. Not with a bang, but with a snicker.

188

General / Re: Super Slam feat question

« on: September 30, 2017, 12:42:52 am »

Ok, whatever, it's your build. But, just that thing...

That just mean that miss will descrease my dps even more than before.

Do...do you even know how math works?

Wrong. I playe many stealthed builds, crossbower has 10 Agi andI noticed that my atealth is not anough anyway, and higher detection is more important.

Erm, unless your crossbow build had PER less than 7, then this build will be even worse at this. I mean you've got both PER and AGI that is less than that of a crossbow guy with 10 AGI.

to destroyor:

Fenix stated he will reply on stealth. When you attack from stealth you have 0 MP, how are you going to next target without Sprint/Hit and Run?

He is just using his AP for that. Deducing from his reply he has time for 1 taser attack and one regular attack between two enemies.

to epeli:

I may ruin the nice atmosphere here, but I believe destroyor and MirddinEmris overestimate the importance of agility and those feats.

Well, i don't, honestly. It's just his arguments are contradictory to what he is doing and i'm trying to make sense of this. If he said "well, that's how i like it" i would say "well, ok, it's you char". But when he is saying "this makes me better at this" when it objectively doesn't...idk, it just seems weird to me.

I thought it's pretty cool and original to see a sneaky low con hammer build with max perception.

7 PER is not max)

Hit and Run honestly won't get you anywhere

Actually, while it can't be used to retreat, it can be used to move between enemies after killing them, and often it actually can be used to position yourself more favorably at the end of the turn. It is especially useful if you start your combat form stealth.

189

General / Re: Super Slam feat question

« on: September 29, 2017, 04:31:47 am »

Btw, what difficulty you are playing at?

Compared to armored build it is great, or at least not bad in general.

Didn't i just said that armored build with 6 agi, tabi and Sprint has about same mobility that yours does? And unlike your, he doesn't need to take cover. So, no, it's not great by any stretch of imagination. I played several sledgehammer builds, i know what i'm talking about.

I attack from stealth so MP used to move between targets.

So, that means you don't have movement points in the first round at all, meaning having less mobility than armored build and that you are a sitting duck for a whole round.

5% is a lot, it is not a rare case I missed with 95% chance to hit, once even 3 times in a row.

Numbers say otherwise. Damage from balor hammer usually around 2 times more than tichrome hammer, meaning that even with 5% accuracy hit, you get much higher dpr and kill  your opponents much quicker. And if you can't bear that terrible 5% accuracy drp, then just forget about using it at all, unless you want either of those: 1) wait till end game 2) wear crappy armor 3) abuse junkyard surprise every 20 min or so.

Stealth is useless when stealthed enemies detects you faster then you are detecting them, it is a death sentence for such build.
Also I don't like reloading.

Yeah, and by increasing your ability to detect them, you decreased your ability to hide from them (stealth depends on AGI), so you basically gained nothing in that area. And if you don't like reloading, then 3 CON and 4 AGI build without good armor is really not the best choice for you.

Even 10 points is good enouh, also you forgot balaclava and ninja tabi, these bonus points gives spare skill points from stealth which I can put into evasion.

I said less than 10. Even 160 quality black cloth will give you 45 stealth, meaning that you get another 9 with Clothier. And you can't expect to find even one of those. What you can reasonable expect is ~130  quality in the end game unless you make a lot of merchant runs or get really lucky in the final area. Balaclava and tabi scale their bonus a lot slower than armor, so you can reasonably expect around 15 points of stealth form Clothier if you wear all 3 of them, meaning that you won't wear goggles that can let you detect enemies MUCH faster or siphoner tabi that'll give you much better evasion and dodge. I don't think 15 skill points worth a feat slot, especially since those 15 points come with some restrictions.

190

General / Re: Super Slam feat question

« on: September 29, 2017, 02:33:10 am »

I have great maneuverability in my siphoner leather armor and tabi boots.

At best it's "ok" maneuverability. Great maneuverability is when you have something like Hit and Run or Fancy Footwork, because that means that after getting close to the enemy and killing it, you can get behind the cover or run far away after. With only 4 AGI and tabi you have enough to get to the enemy, which means it's not that different from guy in heavy armor with Sprint. Good that you have dodge + evasion, but your agi is just too low for it to be the only defense you can rely on with 3 CON (and you didn't max evasion, that's bad, for melee it's more important than dodge, since most guys who try to get close to you will get killed quickly).

Also, 20 is definitely doable, I don't think Styg would put BH if you can't use it.
Also, if no - I always have usual hammers, not a big loss.

I never said you couldn't use it. I said you don't need to aim for 20. You can still use it without 20 STR, you just get accuracy penalty, 5% for each point you are lacking.

Look, the idea for this buld was to rely on stealth and dodge/evasion anyway, so I don't need Con.

The you should've probably put those points in AGI, since PER doesn't do anything for stealth and dodge/evasion. I too like to discover thing with PER, but it is not really useful even when using Oddity xp.

I already decided to give Pummel a try, but its usefulness is limited - I'm already using Taser, also drugs cot 10 AP which is a huge penalty compared to doctor's pouch users, so it could be useful if you really need to finish someone, which is rare thing at least on 16 lvl.

It's usefulness no more limited than that of taser. You can't use taser every turn, it has a cooldown, so you use taser one turn and pummel next. And if you are using setup that is different from tichrome hammer (like with Balor), then you still has those free 10 AP lying around, might as well put them to good use, like using pummel, taser or drugs.

So my pick is Nimble, Deflection, and some of these - Super Slam, Pummel, Clothier, Power Management, can only take 3 from 4.

Super Slam with 3 Con is really not that useful. Even on Easy it's less than 140 damage at lvl 25. Clothier is not that useful for your build, since you want to focus on stealth and evasion and the only fabric that won't push you armor penalty beyond 15% is black and aluminized cloth (blast having 15% penalty and kevlar is 10%), later is killing your stealth and former will get you less than 10 points in stealth (even with 160 quality cloth) from Clothier.

Deflection means that you'll have to keep one weapon slot open constantly and switching to it. If you aim for balor hammer i would recommend keeping it in one slot and tichrome hammer in other. If you need to use Balor, pump up on adrenaline and go to town, then if there is someone left standing, just switch to tichrome and finish them off, because when adrenaline expires it'll be harder to finish someone with just balor, due to accuracy decrease. And again, dodge is less useful for you then evasion, since there are less enemies who go in melee and they will go down first, most probably, since they will be closest to you.

191

General / Re: Super Slam feat question

« on: September 29, 2017, 01:23:34 am »

You can reach 20 STR by having 16 STR, wear Rathound Regalia +1, use adrenaline +2 and rathound BBQ +1.

Or trying to savescum +2 Str out of junkyard suprise every 20 minutes, yes. I was talking about more viable solutions. Rathound Regalia is one of the worst armor in the game, with 3 CON, 4 AGI and this armor he is basically a paper plane trying to fly through incinerator.

192

General / Re: Super Slam feat question

« on: September 29, 2017, 12:46:56 am »

Each point in STR however gives you 7-8% damage increase from boosting your skill and 10% damage boost from having STR above 8. I'm not sure if they are additive or multiplicative, but that damage applies to every attack and also STR increases your accuracy with a weapon, so it's clearly much, much better deal.

Yeah, I don't like armored beast types, so I did stealth Con 3 hammerer and figured out that he at least should oneshot everything, so 20 Str and Balor's hammer is the goal (initial).
It is ~ like this http://underrail.info.tm/build/?AwGlEYXA2KBYSwQZhAdhKjocgJygHqhollgUAco1FATDbkxbrOJZh3KHHiAKwI0-fMiA

Actually armored sledg is the best one in my experience. With Sprint and good tabis you get enough movement to get around enemies and with super steel armor you can get enough resistance that mechanical damage doesn't bother you. So i would still recommend 6-7 CON sledg build. 3 CON for a build with a relatively low maneuverability is too savescummy for me.

And you won't hit 20 STR without supersoldier drug which you can get only at the end of the game (and not with your biology skill, i tell you that). With maxed STR what you can expect is to take rat barbecue and inject yourself with adrenaline in combat, then you'll have 17-19 str, meaning only 5-15% accuracy penalty on the hammer.

About your build, i think it's good enough to finish the game but you WILL hit a lot of roadblocks where you can get mostly by luck after a lot of reloading. 7 PER is almost useless, there just not enough secret places for you to discover with effective 10 PER for it to be even remotely worth it 4 attribute points and 1 feat investment. I would recommend you to take Pummel and Taste for Blood on your next level ups. Pummel is really good, since under adrenaline you can swing you Balor 3 times for 20 AP each and then still hit someone with Pummel for 10 AP (or taser someone, or take some drug). Taste for blood also works decently with sedgehammer build since it also gives you one stack for killing someone and with decent sledge build you can expect to kill 1-2 enemies per turn, each one increasing your further damage by 5%, and since sledg deals damage in large spikes, it's a noticeable increase.

That's the build that i finished the game with http://underrail.info.tm/build/?AwGloJgVhBGGBsIkHYQGYPLD0t0zggCcewsIAHGkfnhGXLBE0bcIVUUrACxyUQvULxi9iIKGgSgEElDEqhK-SlCA

193

General / Re: Super Slam feat question

« on: September 29, 2017, 12:11:25 am »

Although there are many other options for nullifying enemy dodge when necessary, I think Pummel is still handy to have because of its low AP cost.

Super Slam has funny synergy for easy difficulty and I think it's fairly well balanced for normal. It's weaker on hard, but always better than just auto-attacking if your feat budget isn't too tight. This may change at some point in the future so it works the same regardless of difficulty.

Yes, 10 AP sledgehammer attack is actually what i found most useful form this feat, even if for 50% damage only.

Well, yeah, it is better than just an attack (with all other being equal), but the benefit is not particularly noticeable unless you are playing on easy, so there is always better choice for that feat slot. Especially it's not worth making CON > STR sledg build, both in general and with that feat.

194

General / Re: Super Slam feat question

« on: September 28, 2017, 11:24:33 pm »

Why Pummel at all?

Pummel so that you have less chances to miss, i guess, since it reduces evasion and dodge to 0. Still, taking 3 attacks to kill someone, unless this someone is bladeling, industrial bot or something like that is not a great example of a good sledg build in my opinion.

195

General / Re: Super Slam feat question

« on: September 28, 2017, 11:19:29 pm »

Super Slam is really not great. It's OK on easy and normal and almost useless on hard. Let's see, each point in CON at lvl 25 gives you: 24 health (30 with juggernaut) on Hard, 51 (64) on Normal and 102 (128) on Easy. That means that at lvlv 25 each point in CON gives you: 6 dmg on Hard, 13 dmg on Normal, 26 dmg on Easy. Damage that you can apply only once or twice per combat. Each point in STR however gives you 7-8% damage increase from boosting your skill and 10% damage boost from having STR above 8. I'm not sure if they are additive or multiplicative, but that damage applies to every attack and also STR increases your accuracy with a weapon, so it's clearly much, much better deal.

So i don't think that Super Slam worth it in 90% of the cases even if it multiplies on the crit. For sledgehammer users it's much more viable to put their point in STR rather than CON (that's being said, having 7 CON is recommended). A nice bonus is that if you have 15-16 STR then you can put adrenaline and rathound barbeque on top of that and use Balor hammer for about 3 rounds in combat, which often is enough to eliminate your enemies, given that with that weapon it's usually 1 hit = 1 kill.