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General / Re: Post your experiences with the new Dominating difficulty!
« on: December 27, 2017, 11:28:58 pm »
Wall of text warning.
Preface: the purpose of my test is to check the return of investment of dodge/evasion, while comparing the opportunity cost of the required 270 skill points. I'm also trying to see if it's possible to keep enemies' accuracy down to 10% most of the game in ver 1.0.3 dominating.
1) The problem is if you are playing oddity mode there's just no way to bring burrower's accuracy down to 10% with evasion early game on dominating, 50% is just not good enough.
2) My point w/ Grover is that he's a very weak npc, my char was overleveled with the best setup possible for dodge and it STILL FAILED. 50% dodge rate is just not good enough.
3) I was specifically talking about the weakest creature in game - rathound, and it's a bit ridiculous how high you need in order to be immune to them. Dodging rathound alpha is a separate problem. Good luck dodging alpha during early game. (spoiler: total failure)
4) Alpha strike is when you manually entering combat (usually from stealth) and completing your turn of combat. If you can kill everyone in one turn that means combat is over before your enemies have a chance to act.
Taken to the extreme that would be Blitz + adrenaline + base AP = 90 AP, mix in fatal throw (cost 11AP @17 DEX, return 18AP) = 97 AP total.
I disagree w/ the statement: "However, if overall survivability is what you're after, it is important that you don't neglect use of Uncanny Dodge and Sprint + Evasive Maneuvers, which (let's be honest) provide Dodge & Evasion builds with most of their end-game power.". In the past (pre ver 1.0.3) many dodge/evasion builds are without uncanny dodge/sprint/evasive maneuvers (see my guide, character build section - check the last updated date). This is either because there are far better alternative and/or just simply can't afford the feat slot. These builds traded skill point in order to save ability points and/or feat slot, with the prime example being crossbow builds. I would argue uncanny dodge + evasive maneuvers greatly enhance dodge/evasion but are not truly the core of d/e builds. You simply cannot activate uncanny dodge when you are ambushed by a lurker (and lost initiative check) assassin. Evasive maneuvers will only save you from aimed shot/shock bolt/burst for one turn while realistically d/e builds need to be safe from those threats for more than one turns. In addition, if you have enough MP for evasive maneuvers/sprint to be effective it's usually far better to run away (outside enemies' weapon optimal range) and/or break line of sight. This is not ... the desired tactics for some special melee build such as a crit brawler/psi monk.
In any case I will continue on w/o uncanny dodge/evasive maneuvers/sprint as they are outside the purview of my test. I'm also testing d/e to see if running around under 30% health full time in order to trigger survival instinct is still viable. Right now the initial results aren't promising as the return of investment in d/e are poor. With the latest changes to mercantile (getting higher crafting component which directly impact your damage, survivability and utilities) it's probably better to take those skill points away from d/e and pump them into mercantile + crafting skills such as chemistry for high level grenades/biology for medicines. I'm still reserving judgement on classic mode mid ~ late game.
*snip
I see Evasion helping somewhat against midgame enemies, like Camp Hathor burrowers. Mitigates about half the shots. My current value is 211.
How many punches does Grover miss out of 20 or more, if you can check? Can we take assumptions on Grover's Melee skill from his bare first damage? Better the sample count (i.e. hits taken),
better the estimate we can make. Statistics don't lie.
I think rathounds aren't representative in general since Alphas got buffed to hell and back on Dominating. Before they were cakewalk, now two packs before GMS entrance required some serious thinking for my characters, and one failed as result.
Can you explain what is "alpha strike"?
*snip
Preface: the purpose of my test is to check the return of investment of dodge/evasion, while comparing the opportunity cost of the required 270 skill points. I'm also trying to see if it's possible to keep enemies' accuracy down to 10% most of the game in ver 1.0.3 dominating.
1) The problem is if you are playing oddity mode there's just no way to bring burrower's accuracy down to 10% with evasion early game on dominating, 50% is just not good enough.
2) My point w/ Grover is that he's a very weak npc, my char was overleveled with the best setup possible for dodge and it STILL FAILED. 50% dodge rate is just not good enough.
3) I was specifically talking about the weakest creature in game - rathound, and it's a bit ridiculous how high you need in order to be immune to them. Dodging rathound alpha is a separate problem. Good luck dodging alpha during early game. (spoiler: total failure)
4) Alpha strike is when you manually entering combat (usually from stealth) and completing your turn of combat. If you can kill everyone in one turn that means combat is over before your enemies have a chance to act.
Taken to the extreme that would be Blitz + adrenaline + base AP = 90 AP, mix in fatal throw (cost 11AP @17 DEX, return 18AP) = 97 AP total.
*snip
Gotcha. Yeah, with those definitions, it does not seem like one is able to achieve a "viable dodge/evasion build" on Dominating difficulty, at least not without significant power-leveling on Classic.
However, if overall survivability is what you're after, it is important that you don't neglect use of Uncanny Dodge and Sprint + Evasive Maneuvers, which (let's be honest) provide Dodge & Evasion builds with most of their end-game power. I do not consider the usage of either feat to be "cheating" in any way, as they are included within the game and intended for use by Dodge & Evasion builds.
It may not be possible for a 52 effective dodge character to completely avoid every single attack from a rathound on Dominating, but with Uncanny Dodge, they most certainly can dodge everything that gets thrown at them. At 52 effective Dodge, you can dodge 3 melee attacks in a row for one turn, guaranteed. At 135 effective Dodge, the bonus becomes 6 guaranteed dodges for one turn. Similarly, an AGI 10 character with Sprint (for a total of 75 movement points), will get a bonus of 225 Evasion from Evasive Maneuvers for one turn. Granted, most battles are unlikely to last for just one turn, but you cannot deny that these bonuses provide significant survivability for any character.
So I would encourage you to continue your testing with an Uncanny Dodge / Evasive Maneuvers character, and determine the "true viability" from there. I'm doing the same with my own character, but my SMG build only allows for 8 AGI, and I'm not bothering with Nimble or 0% Armor Penalty. And, of course, I have some other tricks up my sleeve.
I see Evasion helping somewhat against midgame enemies, like Camp Hathor burrowers. Mitigates about half the shots. My current value is 211.
How many punches does Grover miss out of 20 or more, if you can check? Can we take assumptions on Grover's Melee skill from his bare first damage? Better the sample count (i.e. hits taken), better the estimate we can make. Statistics don't lie.
Yeah, I have to agree with Twiglard here. Some more statistics would be helpful in providing a more representative outlook on the viability of Dodge & Evasion builds on Dominating difficulty.
I disagree w/ the statement: "However, if overall survivability is what you're after, it is important that you don't neglect use of Uncanny Dodge and Sprint + Evasive Maneuvers, which (let's be honest) provide Dodge & Evasion builds with most of their end-game power.". In the past (pre ver 1.0.3) many dodge/evasion builds are without uncanny dodge/sprint/evasive maneuvers (see my guide, character build section - check the last updated date). This is either because there are far better alternative and/or just simply can't afford the feat slot. These builds traded skill point in order to save ability points and/or feat slot, with the prime example being crossbow builds. I would argue uncanny dodge + evasive maneuvers greatly enhance dodge/evasion but are not truly the core of d/e builds. You simply cannot activate uncanny dodge when you are ambushed by a lurker (and lost initiative check) assassin. Evasive maneuvers will only save you from aimed shot/shock bolt/burst for one turn while realistically d/e builds need to be safe from those threats for more than one turns. In addition, if you have enough MP for evasive maneuvers/sprint to be effective it's usually far better to run away (outside enemies' weapon optimal range) and/or break line of sight. This is not ... the desired tactics for some special melee build such as a crit brawler/psi monk.
In any case I will continue on w/o uncanny dodge/evasive maneuvers/sprint as they are outside the purview of my test. I'm also testing d/e to see if running around under 30% health full time in order to trigger survival instinct is still viable. Right now the initial results aren't promising as the return of investment in d/e are poor. With the latest changes to mercantile (getting higher crafting component which directly impact your damage, survivability and utilities) it's probably better to take those skill points away from d/e and pump them into mercantile + crafting skills such as chemistry for high level grenades/biology for medicines. I'm still reserving judgement on classic mode mid ~ late game.