Messages

61

Builds / Re: Do fragmented chaos works with critical bonus from shotgun/critical power?

« on: July 23, 2020, 06:29:42 pm »

First off critical power gives 1.5% crit damage for every 1% critical damage over 100%.

pssst...

"Critical Power - Base bonus changed to 1% (down from 1.5%) and spec bonus changed to 0.1% (down from 0.15%); I'm not happy with this feat in general. Straight unconditional passive damage boost feats is something I'm going to avoid in the future for sure" from https://underrail.com/forums/index.php?topic=1566.msg30430#msg30430

62

Suggestions / Re: New Update

« on: July 23, 2020, 06:26:10 pm »

- penalties for having multiple schools innervated might be expanded to include modifiers to reserve utilization efficiency. For example, as long as you only have abilities from a single school you only use 7 reserve points to restore 10 actual psi points. While 2/3/4 schools would increase it to 10/15/20 points of reserves for 10 psi points.

I'd caution against that sort of thing on the grounds that it directly rewards the most boring play possible, and further punishes newcomers to the game who don't know how to optimize every action.  As it is, I can't say I'm a fan of increasing psi cost combined with global scarcity of psi points, because it actively punishes people looking for variety in how they play the game, and that's just poor design.  With additional reward for single-school, you provide a strong psi bonus for builds that only dabble in psi, or use a minimal selection of it.  The cumulative effect of higher costs and reduced reserve efficiency, combined with the current inability to restore reserve during combat, nearly guarantees that in any difficult fight, bringing a generalized loadout will result in depletion and failure.  If you want to do the same thing every fight for the whole game, there's tin can AR, already. 

Reducing effective skill values for multiple schools - because it's so very hard to magically cave wizard in several different ways all at once and you mix up the tiny details and as a result don't do everything just right - would have weakened psi generalists compared to psi specialists without also mechanically punishing players for trying out new things.  We've clearly seen that Stygsoft can add in debuffs quite easily, so causing activation of a psi school ability to effect a psi school debuff (penalizing skill values, durations, and/or psi costs) on the player would have been simple and it could have done for psi generalists just as well as the current system, but without also sucking quite as hard as the original idea does.  But having "psi bullets" as an actual consumable resource, and then rewarding players for not using variety, and punishing them when they do use it, isn't an effective way to reign in power; it merely reigns in player agency.  If you can't manage the first without disturbing the second, then you don't understand the system you're changing.

63

Builds / Re: An Average Explanation of Outstanding Psi Builds

« on: July 23, 2020, 05:56:10 pm »

We already had a hotfix with noticeable changes so that post will probably be obsolete soon again.

There's a reason I list the "current as of" date in the updated recommendations post.  Don't you worry; I'll keep things current as long as this thread stays relevant.

64

Builds / Re: An Average Explanation of Outstanding Psi Builds

« on: July 22, 2020, 10:02:45 pm »

O, ye of little faith.

Updated post now for current experimental branch psi mechanics.

65

Suggestions / Re: Just thoughts of a new Psi system

« on: July 22, 2020, 09:57:54 pm »

Dude, I was just asking for more psi uses for intelligence, since it was made the basic psi stat. Why did this turn into a discussion of the advantages of crafting and a guide to where to find electronics that are usually only crafted?

Because your OP was premised on Intelligence not being useful enough, now.  To correctly valuate Intelligence, you need to also look at the role it plays in crafting, which is enormously powerful.  You compared it to Perception and Strength and Agility, and indirectly to Dexterity.  I pointed out that Intelligence applies to the most powerful system in UnderRail, crafting, and said I didn't feel it was an apples-to-apples comparison since those stats only affect one or two (or three) skills while Intelligence affects seven, all of which are useful even outside psi.

I'm not really sure why Bruno chimed in without seeing the generalizations you and I were both applying in our discussion.  But to you, my point has been unchanged: Intelligence is higher priority comparatively for psi but it also provides psi with huge benefits.  I don't think you can fairly compare what it offers to other stats.  I also don't think in the current experimental build there's any reason to take Int over 9 for full psi builds, and certainly no reason to go past 12.  There's still a lot of room for Will, and psi builds optimizing for psi benefit used 10 Int pre-patch, anyway.

66

Suggestions / Re: Just thoughts of a new Psi system

« on: July 22, 2020, 08:20:58 pm »

Bre,
You can loot a cloaking device in Slavomir/Bogdans hideout. I also get a cloaking device as reward for this mission (JKK #1).

Which are only optionally available, Bruno.  You can't get the JKK rewards if you don't take the JKK quest, and you can't get into Bogdan's hideout if you sided with Protectorate.  (edit: lel. I forgot who Bogdan was.  You can get to his hideout regardless, and get the cloak regardless.  It is mediocre at best, but anyone can get it) Whereas you can with any choices get crafting skill and components, thus making what I said broadly true.

You can also get a cloaking device from duping items.  Should I then by your logic have included that?

67

General / Re: Psi crab coak is not worth it.

« on: July 22, 2020, 07:37:00 pm »

You're really focused on armor penalty.  Armor penalty only affects four things: Dodge, Evasion, Stealth, and move points.  If you don't have Dodge or Evasion, aren't using Stealth at the moment, and have a way to get move points unaffected by armor penalty, then armor penalty has no effect on you at all. Sprint + psi haste is a lot of mobility for a short time, or a fair bit of mobility for a good while.  Sledge juggernauts have been viable with capped ArPen + Sprint for years, and they're melee.

68

Suggestions / Re: Just thoughts of a new Psi system

« on: July 22, 2020, 07:02:15 pm »

My last playthrough was a stealthy psi luddite, so I highly doubt it.

P.S. 60 stealth is enough ... Well, if you do not use it actively, then maybe. I was caught even with 160. Well, I tried to peacefully sneak through the Serpentborn camp, so that's natural.
I already realized that you love crafting just as much as I love stealth and control abilities. This is normal. But don't force your playstyle on people.

What that means is you haven't tried it and don't know; I have tried it, and know.  The way you played is good enough, and you're good enough that it worked well.  Excellent.  But you could do even better with crafted gear, no matter your build (that's why I mentioned weapons; because no matter your build, crafting makes it better).

60 skill points in stealth, plus 50 from Infused Cave Hopper Overcoat, plus 30 from Ninja Tabis, plus 25 from Balaclava, plus 80 from Cloaking Device, gives you 245 effective before Agility modification: 3 base, +1 from the overcoat, and +1 or +2 from food gives you an additional 8.5-17% effective skill bonus.  That can get you safely through Emporion, Serpentborn camp, and maybe even Death Stalker zones if you're very precise.

I'm not forcing my play style on anyone; I'm pointing out the objective fact that in UnderRail crafted gear is superior to looted or purchased gear, and since gear modifies player character power, good crafting makes you more powerful.  This isn't an especially contentious detail; it's been understood for years.  Choosing not to use crafting is choosing to make the game more difficult; no problems there.  But from a fundamental viewpoint of "how can I make my character the best it can be" there's no comparison -- crafting is the correct way to go for the gear you're going to rely on most.

69

Suggestions / Re: Just thoughts of a new Psi system

« on: July 22, 2020, 05:58:31 pm »

I'm about to update my psi build guide, so I'll be brief here, but I'd like to respond to a few of your points:

Agility is not necessary for successful stealth.  If you have a crafted stealth set of gear, you can stealth the entire game on DOMINATING with 3 Agi and 0 Stealth.  You can stealth the entire game easily with 3 Agi and 60 Stealth.
Dexterity is not necessary for successful traps.  The only trap that's really irreplaceable is the simple bear trap which is usable at 0 skill.
Carrying capacity is not important for psi.  There is no gear weight for psi; a headband weighing 1 and armor weighing 12ish with psi beetle carapace.  No ammo, no weapon, no need to wear tabis to optimize attacks.  Wear infused pig leather boots for +30 carry and you have 140+ free carry weight at 3 strength without Pack Rathound.
6 Int is still plenty for full psi, unfortunately.  I'll show that when I update my build guide.  But 10 Int was always the optimal value for psi pre-patch because psi regen mattered in a way it no longer does.
Crafting gear has always been the fundamentally correct way to play UnderRail, so Intellect has always been an important stat to free up skill points and provide even greater benefits to crafted gear.  No looted psi headband will ever match what a crafted one can.  No looted weapon will ever match what a crafted one can.  No looted armor will ever match what crafted armor can.  No looted shield will ever match what a crafted one can.  And you can't loot Tasers or Cloaking Devices, both of which are irreplaceable tools.

70

Suggestions / Re: New Update

« on: July 22, 2020, 04:37:13 pm »

I'd like to add in, if I may, rather than start another thread.  Hopefully the devs will read what y'all have said in this thread; some good constructive criticism.

I'd like to float a couple other ideas I feel are really important right now for pure psi:

--Draining psi and psi reserve when switching abilities has to go away.  Not because we posting here can't work with it, but because it disproportionately punishes new and less experienced players.  If you want a metaphor for it, it's as though all of a sudden when reloading guns all your previous bullets disappeared forever.  The idea behind the innervation system is that full psi users will need to limit themselves per encounter, while still being able to enjoy variety across the game; but by exercising that variety, an enormous additional cost shows up.  Further, getting to a fight and seeing what is necessary should only require "reloading your gun" with the type of ammo most useful for the fight; it shouldn't risk making someone have to run back and "buy new ammo" in the form of additional inhalers now needed just because swapping out fireball and mirror image for lightning bolt and electro trap to deal with robots caused the player to completely lose their ability to cast psi.  If you don't know ahead of time after the fight you just did what your next fight is going to be, then you're getting punished for having the "wrong" abilities readied.  That's just a terrible thing to do to players exploring the game.

--Psychosis needs a way to recover the additional psi cost the feat causes.  Now that psi is a globally scarce resource, Psychosis pays more "ammo cost" to use the same abilities, meaning once again, Psychosis has taken a step down in desirability.  Making non-damaging and crit-incapable spells immune to the higher cost would be an elegant way to handle it but might be difficult on the coding side; adding in a psi reserve leeching system would probably be far simpler and might even feel more rewarding since it would be visible to the player.  For example, letting crits refund some portion of the psi cost of the ability would be extremely in theme with Psychosis and would reward the fundamental play style; maybe 4% of the ability cost per target critically hit, capped at 20%, since the classic Psychosis opener is the AoE Cryo Orb; this then would also give a visible refund in exchange for the health cost of using Psionic Mania, making it feel more valuable.  Psychosis just needs a little love to deal with this giant change more gracefully.

--Inefficiencies need to be dealt with similarly to other combat styles, rather than harsher.  If you use a lot of "psi points" (bullets) in an SMG build, then your recourse is to bring more bullets because you need a lot.  With inhalers only being usable outside combat, there is no mechanic currently to allow someone who has blown all their points on ineffective abilities to recover and keep fighting*.  It's literally game over, reload.  A third booster type that's usable in combat and restores psi reserve needs to be implemented so that psi can choose to "carry more bullets" into the fight if they need.  Making said new booster scarce and expensive will ensure that it doesn't break the global scarcity of New Psi, while also allowing players who aren't doing everything perfectly to recover from their mistakes without getting punished too harshly for making them.

There are several others, but these three things are IMO the most important changes to be made immediately if full psi is meant to be an actual play style in UnderRail.

edit:   * someone is going to say "but psi boosters can recover 50 psi reserve!" but that's not comparable at all.  With a cooldown on when they can be used, and with 50 points only being 3 basic attack spells at 100% cost, a psi booster isn't sufficient.  Guns have reloading belts; psi needs something to let them use as many "bullets" as necessary to finish the fight.  The global scarcity comes between fights, not during them; you worry about doing merchant rounds to restock, not about rationing what's in your inventory when the shooting starts.

71

Development Log / Re: Dev Log #67: Version 1.1.2.0 - Waterways and Psi Update

« on: July 22, 2020, 04:02:08 pm »

If we are caught in a protracted battle, which will cost us more than 600 psi, we are dead bodies. With no exceptions.

Oh, not at all.  This is one part of the mechanic that is without flaw from concept to execution - Styg wanted to make sure that psi was not infinite, and it is not; whether you agree that his idea was necessary, it is in this case well-implemented.  This makes it all the more important to pick up alternate methods of damage dealing - Grenadier will be coming back into vogue for pure psi builds as something nearly necessary rather than just occasionally helpful.  Traps and stealth will become more important when setting up the field of battle for large fights.  And, of course, specializing more heavily into the abilities you do use so they're more efficient at killing enemies will be the choice build.

All we really need is a third psi booster type, now - one that can be used in combat, is rare/expensive beyond the inhalers, and only restores psi reserve.  That way protracted fights like the natives incursions or the Balor and Beast fights can be managed more reasonably as pure psi.  Alternately, a psi feat that leeches reserve points somehow (like I previously recommended for Psychosis, and still think Psychosis needs to be viable in the current form) into psi reserve would work.  Psi reserve regeneration would also work, but isn't consistent with Styg's desire to have a globally scare resource, so probably won't make an appearance unless he changes his mind substantially.

72

Suggestions / Re: Just thoughts of a new Psi system

« on: July 22, 2020, 03:46:50 pm »

Two stats are really only needed for pistol shooters at the moment.

It's a little bit trickier a balancing act than that, though, because, for example, Strength doesn't help you do anything but be strong, and Perception doesn't help you do anything but aim and find secrets in the world (and as the game is now, you can still find all the secrets with 3 Perception so even there it only serves a QoL function) but Will and Intelligence are the most important skill-boosting stats in the game.  Intelligence makes you better at hacking, shopping, and all crafting skills; Will makes you better at persuasion and intimidation which both have real benefits in the game world.

I just don't think it's a fair apples-to-apples to compare Strength or Perception or Agility or even Dexterity to Constitution, Will, and Intelligence, which are fundamentally more helpful to the character.

73

General / Re: New Stygian Software Developer

« on: July 21, 2020, 05:18:06 pm »

Welcome, Yog!  Nice to meet you.

Grab a comfy chair, and a nice drink, becuase you are showing up just in time to see some angry people show up 

74

Development Log / Re: Dev Log #67: Version 1.1.2.0 - Waterways and Psi Update

« on: July 21, 2020, 04:56:05 pm »

Ho-ho, Vancian cave wizards, here we go!

edit: early impressions: You need 8 slots to be the reasonably attainable max, not 6.  You've got 8 skills per psi school, and it isn't even thematically consistent to restrict beyond that.  I get the mechanics for how you're limiting psi generalists - and who knows, maybe it'll end up being a fun new way to go instead of the mistake it looks like right now - but you aren't just controlling psi options with 6 innervated slots, you're limiting beyond mere single-school specialization.

I think 2 slots + 2 per 4 Int would be a better number without ever feeling like there's no sacrifices that need to be made.  Still would require 12 Int to unlock all the slots so you couldn't have 18 Will *and* all the spells, but it would allow pure psi to roll out the gate with 6 slots and pick up their eighth by Depot A, which is when you really want newer players to have as many options available as possible.

I do like the psi points and psi reserve.  That feels like a pretty good resource management tool.  Not sure I like wiping out both the psi pool and the reserve when switching innervated slots, though.  Seems like the pool should empty then refill from the reserves.  But if those inhalers are more common than they first appear to be, it won't really be a problem either way.

As a general statement, though, I hate it.  The real joy of psi wasn't the power, it was the ability to try out nifty things and expand replay potential.  Congrats, you've gimped psi into a one-trick pony and ensured that we'll all just be cheesing the same techniques again and again.  If this is now the next game handles psi, I definitely won't buy or play it.

second edit: You need to do something for poor Psychosis.  This psi change isn't bothering Tranquility builds nearly as much.  Maybe keep the increased psi cost for Psychosis but give it a psi reserve leeching effect so that the long-term costs come closer to balancing out?  When there was no global accruing resource management metagame Psychosis only had to worry the immediate psi pool considerations, but with crit chance being non-deterministic Psychosis again gets the shaft with increased total costs, thus increased global costs, and a benefit gated by RNG.

I do like the new resource management and how it forces non-psi use regularly; but, man, poor Psychosis builds.

75

General / Re: Psi crab coak is not worth it.

« on: July 21, 2020, 04:48:16 am »

I don't think that's a fair trade. Do you?

For the tac vest, it's close.  That's why I said if it had 5% psi cost reduction I'd be all over it. You also show a lot of numbers but aren't really appearing to consider actual use cases.

Why are we assuming basic 200% bullet resist?  If we're not using Kevlar, what are we using?  Not black cloth - the armor penalty is so high we're not sneaking in this thing no matter what.  Aluminized?  Then the heat resist from the cloth stacks with the psi crab, getting us to 70%/25.  Since standing in flames is now capped on damage rather than being a flat % of max health, that means you can safely stand in fire and take no damage, which could be a big deal if you like molotovs and also are Tranq specced, or if you use Exothermic Aura defensively a lot and end up standing in the lake of fire you generated even after the ability wears off.  Also makes the Industrial Bot fights trivial since their flamethrowers won't much bother you, even without Metathermics in your build.  But maybe we're using Kevlar cloth after all.  In that case, it's pretty easy to get bullet DT over 120, making you fundamentally immune to pistols and SMGs and most ARs.  That means when you're fighting groups of enemies with firearm weapons, you can safely ignore several opponents.  That makes some fights a whole lot easier, tactically and mechanically.

And really, who cares about armor penalty?  You're not wearing this to sneak, and if you're so fully psi that you're wearing psi tac vests you don't really have much investment in dodge or evasion.  So, what?  Move points?  Like I said, psi haste ignores armor penalty, and moving around in real-time mode doesn't appear to be affected by armor penalty.  So you're only slow on the turns when you can afford to be slow.  Heck, if you went into it expecting to use psi crab, you maybe even picked up Sprint to go with psi haste, in which case you're highly mobile even with 95% armor penalty.

Even without considering optimized cases, there are further advantages that the psi crab brings.  Tac vests are notoriously garbage against melee attacks, but with the extra threshold from crab you can survive stealth ambushes a little better, especially when stacked with the effective threshold of Cryo-Shield (which presumably a cautious psi player keeps up when walking around unknown areas).  Electric resist is hard to come by, but crab carapace offers a fairly decent amount of it, and with galvanic vest and galvanic padded boots can get the player up well over 60%/30, which is a fair bit of protection.

Is it worth it to me? No, I don't use it; everything it offers all combined isn't worth just the 10% cost reduction alone to me, because I've played this game so much I only get hit when I want to so armor rating is purely academic.  But with 5% reduction, I'd use it, and for people who aren't fully savants about the game, maybe it's worth it even as it is, since it does offer a lot of survivability that beetle doesn't.