Messages

16

General / Re: Chemical/energy pistols

« on: October 02, 2017, 07:49:38 pm »

not even in the same league! so are you just going to ignore my point about the ambush perk which will put the chemical pistol's critical chance even above that of a hammer's

Ambush is not exclusive for chemical pistols. It's even easier to use with throwing molotovs then shooting from a pistol, than with chemical pistols.

Let's see numbers. We have a hammerer pistol with 132 quality frame and incendiary pistol with 133 quality collector and 125 quality dispenser. We have both gun nut and mad chemist. Hammerer does 19-100 damage (60 avg), chemical pisto does 15-25 (20 avg), so there is 3 times the damage. The on hit effect for  a chem pistol is 85% chance to set target on fire dealing 416% damage in two turns. The problem with later is that while this damage is ongoing the target can still attack you. Damage over time is less valuable than direct damage. Then we have the ability to put +50% damage on special attacks on hammerer, and then either +10% accuracy (which also will affect damage per round) or extended magazine (AP economy). We have none of those options for chemical pistol. Then we have the fact that hammerer has range 10 (7 optimal), while incendiary has range of 7 (4 optimal), meaning that you have a lot more flexibility with hammerer than you have with chemical. Accuracy drop from shorter ranges affects dpr too. Then we have the fact that hammerer has crit chance/bonus of 7/125 while chemical has 4/100. Then we have some special feats for firearms, like Gunslinger that does -3 AP per shot and increases initiative by 7 while wielding a regular pistol.

With firearm you also have special ammo, like W2C when you need to deal with mech resist and JPH to increase your damage when target has low mech resist. Explosive bullets also very good and increase your overall damage when you need it.

since we are talking about the weapon itself instead of build, anything outside of that particular weapon is irrelevant, as I can also counter the low damage of chemical pistol by saying the damage can be easily made up by an off hand SMG.

you are correct that the initial damage of the 0.44 pistol is about 3 times that of a chemical pistols, but the original statement that I replied to said the maximum damage, so my point still stands that the original statement is incorrect counting the on hit effect of chemical pistol.

you are also correct that initial damage is preferred over dot damage, and that 0.44 out class chemical pistol over this aspect, and there's no way I can argue otherwise with the existence of smart module, but I feel the difference in direct damage is not flexible when compared to chemical pistol, as the damage of the on hit effect bypass BOTH shield and most armor, the majority damage coming from on hit effect, with very useful effects like entangle and fear that make some fights trivial compared to 0.44, one fight that I can think of is the carnifex fight.

pistol indeed have special ammos for different situation, but the bypass nature from the chemical pistol is still preferred over, say, W2C, chemical pistol also has corrosive acid that's very useful for the endgame boss and possibly the next expansion.

chemical pistol outperforms the pistol, particularly the 0.44 over some areas while underperform on others, I could accept that 0.44 has more general application, I strongly disagree that they are not even in the same league.

17

General / Re: Chemical/energy pistols

« on: October 02, 2017, 08:59:17 am »

I'm sorry, but no chemical pistol arrangement can even come close to competing with a .44 Hammerer. The latter accepts a rapid reloader and takes advantage of Gunslinger, meaning its AP cost is lower than a chemical pistol (22.6 vs 25); at the same time it has 3-4 times the maximum damage of any chemical pistol, it has a higher critical chance and higher critical damage, and it can accept a smart module and use Rapid Fire, both of which make it far better at deleting large targets. With a chemical pistol you're trading off all of that for inconsistent single target CC (46% chance to entangle on acid blob pistols with a QL130 dispenser - seriously?), and damage over time that typically won't bring the total damage per shot of the weapon in line with a .44 even if it does take effect.

If you want to argue that chemical pistols are less boring for you to play with than firearms then that's one thing (I would rather use molotovs and flashbangs for CC and use my pistols to kill stuff, personally), but you cannot argue that they're even in the same league when it comes to power, the numbers simply don't agree. If you found otherwise then you were using firearms wrong.

SMGs are as far above .44s as .44s are above chemical pistols. SMG builds have higher damage output than AR builds.

Edit: There is actually one chemical pistol in the game that almost approaches the power of a firearm, which is the XAL-001 unique. It deals 25-35 damage at base 16 AP per shot. It still falls somewhat short of the power of a late-game .44, and it carries a penalty that requires a particular equipment setup to offset, but nonetheless if you're interested in chemical pistols it's a good idea to keep and use it, as unfortunately you will never craft anything anywhere near as good.

not even in the same league! so are you just going to ignore my point about the ambush perk which will put the chemical pistol's critical chance even above that of a hammer's, and using acid pistol's stats when fire pistol's on hit chance is much stronger, with a 85% chance of 350% of the base damage with mad chemist perk with just 100 quality components, never mind the cc from burning and the fact it's fire damage, the number is just not agreeing with both of your facts that 1. chemical pistol don't trigger enough, and 2. the critical chance is higher than that of a chemical pistols. I also would like to point out that as the average damage of hammer is roughly about 2 times that of a acid chemical pistols and 3 times that of a fire pistols ignore both the on hit effect and the enemy armor type, counting the on hit effect the damage per shot is about the same if counting mad chemist. you could argue the addition of a smart module puts the damage per shot of the hammer with special attacks at about 50% more, and that's certainly a valid point, but I'd argue the cc of the chemical pistol and the armor bypassing nature of it makes it worth the 50% less damage part, I'd also like to talk about corrosive acid but that's really nitpicking, it's certainly not leagues below that of a hammer 0.44.

the reason why I prefer a custom one over the XAL-001 is that it triggers on hit effect around 10% and less depending on the quality of your hand made acid pistols, and I only keep acid pistols around for the on hit effect, with mad chemist perk and the fact that I need that one particular suit from that one questline makes it not worth it for me, I could definitely see it working better with a custom fire chemical pistol though.

I wasn't aware that SMG out damages AR, that's a good point there.

18

General / Re: Chemical/energy pistols

« on: October 01, 2017, 06:58:27 pm »

Nothing wrong with playing on normal. I rather judge builds by how they perform compared to other builds. By that metric it's pretty difficult to see chemical pistols as anything but the weakest subgroup of an already weak weapon group.

that's where you are wrong my man, in my normal playthrough my chemical pistol build performs way better than my critical pistol build, the damage per shot in average is higher and there's just no comparing the cc potential, as both acid and fire gives me amazing kiting ability, with execute + Taser and the critical chance bonus that one perk gives me because fire in dark places, I encountered almost no difficulty once the build is complete in normal, while my pistol build has huge difficulty fighting large mob and enemy with high armor and robot enemies, I haven't had the chance to make a submachine gun main but I can't see how it outperforms chemical pistol, assault rifle is indeed better but I don't want to admit such brain dead and boring weapon exists, so gun-wise chemical pistol is actually my favorite, it is the only weapon that had a chance to kill Tanner after all.

19

General / Re: Chemical/energy pistols

« on: September 22, 2017, 04:21:47 pm »

Well, at least you have clarified it was normal.

yep, I'd rather play wacky build on normal than power gaming through hard.

20

General / Re: Chemical/energy pistols

« on: September 18, 2017, 09:02:15 pm »

nah man, chemical pistol is very good, way better than the regular pistol for my taste

Why, though?

Yo, I duel wield a fire and acid pistol and use whichever depending on the situation, with mad chemist the damage and cc is just dope, ditched that boring ass critical pistol build the first chance I got, if it got me through normal, its good enough for me.

21

General / Re: Chemical/energy pistols

« on: September 18, 2017, 06:29:10 pm »

nah man, chemical pistol is very good, way better than the regular pistol for my taste