Messages

16

General / Re: Post your experiences with the new Dominating difficulty!

« on: March 17, 2018, 10:03:04 pm »

Previously I would very patiently stealth through this section but the absurd amount of critters now makes this approach basically impossible without a lot of save scumming and luck since on top of the increased numbers Roderick has a penchant for attacking the critters on his own and him dying means automatically a reload since you cannot escape from the island without him. What is even more hilariously stupid and immersion breaking that in real time the PSI beetles tend to no use PSI at all and just rush to him in melee. It bums me that the Silent Isle is now basically a combat exclusive area.

For what it's worth, though I *sometimes* have to load once or twice (the Captain can get randomly engaged over his head, luck does somewhat factor in) it is very much possible to regularly one-shot (no save/loads) (with stealth builds) under level 10.  Do you have interloper and optionally some cheap ninjatabis with +speed or other initial stealth gear (and maybe an Agility steak)? Are you using adrenaline in the "safety" area near the crystal room transition for a quick grab?  Are you using combat-controlled stealth movement to your advantage (it freezes enemies in place if they don't see you yet)?

I have *never* used damage-dealing to complete Silent Isle on Dominating and I've completed several such runs now (and even more completing at least the Silent Isle...always go on the Azure bug side).

However, the way I approach Silent Isle (and the rest of my runs) is to semi-scientifically break down and analyze the geometry, movements, skills, and tactics needed.  I agree with you that you can't just willy-nilly stealth the island like on lower difficulties, but I feel that that is kind of the point.  Dominating *forces* you to fully optimize for what you want to do and go all-in on doing it and will still heavily punish you if you make execution mistakes.  Unless I'm misremembering, this difficulty is specifically designed for people who already know the game from start to finish. 

So it's in no way true that you *must* fight to complete Silent Isle or that you *must* have save/loading in order to use stealth there, but it definitely has potential for bad luck and very thin margins when stealthing.

17

General / Re: [Spoilers for potentially everything] Minimum Level To Complete Dominating?

« on: February 25, 2018, 11:53:39 am »

Thank you guys again for all of the detailed feedback.  It seems that there is a lot to investigate from my perspective.  I definitely look forward to having a chance to do some new and interesting playthroughs.

I wanted to add a detailed update even though at this point it seems clear that my run may be far behind the curve of actual optimization.  At least I think the details in this post can be used as a reference point for how actually "easy" Level 14 turned out to be.  I promise I am not disregarding the other strategies, this post is largely for my own reference and to gauge progress, and maybe as a template for a more "competitive" run summary (especially if they get harder/less obvious to reproduce).  I basically still just wanted to confirm my suspicion that my existing general approach, with slight and not even complete optimization, could fairly easily clear the game at my goal level...so in summary:

I have now completed Dominating at Level 14 using:

Str: 7
Dex: 3
Agi: 7
Con: 3
Per: 13
Will: 3
Int: 7

Feats:
Aimed Shot (I made sure not to use it later on because I wanted to confirm it really doesn't do much but help early game)
Echoing Soliloquy (No reason not to get this right?)
Expertise
Gun Nut
Opportunist
Suppressive Fire
Interloper
Full-Auto
Concentrated Fire
Commando (Didn't end up needing/using double bursts vs. Tchort...I didn't see a good way to line things up to take advantage of it anyway.  Obviously if using AR in any future runs this will be irrelevant anyway sub-14...got its most "useful" use during Coretech Warehouse and Mushroom Forest in particular)

Skills:
Guns 80 (141)
Evasion 60 (75) (I don't think this did much, but I wasted even more points here in Lvl16 run and figured worst case these are wasted but shouldn't be a showstopper)
Stealth 80 (with all gear/buffs effective 235..always using Rathound Regalia because 10% movement speed +25 stealth with Interloper seems to me to be worth more like +100 true stealth)
Hacking 75 (94)
Lockpicking 75 (60)
Mechanics 80 (100)
Electronics 77 (96)
Persuasion 65 (67)
Mercantile 48 (73)

I crafted (with House):
9mm Smart Muzzled Hornet 18-59, +40% special attacks
Efficient High Frequency Shield Emitter 1011 Capacity, Conversion Rate 10.9, 12/37/115/168/213
+62 stealth cloaking device
+32% Special Attacks Smart Nightvision goggles

Noncrafted:
Standard +18 stealth balaclava, ChemicalAssaultUnit Armor for Tchort, RathoundRegalia everywhere else except early (before Core City main quests)
18%/23 stealth Ninja Tabis (I am sure I could have wasted fewer points elsewhere and crafted better...also probably could kill Coretech Runners for better, but not even necessary)..I wore these for Tchort fight but probably there are better choices...
Bullet Belt (of course)
W2C bullets for all the "major" fights in Deep Caverns obviously (Faceless +300 is enough for everything)

Notes of interest (at least to me):

Overall

- I barely took any more time in Deep Caverns or Tchort than my Level 16 run except for the Arke fight (which I now know what that looks like, I oneshot it by just running into the back corner and having the robots crowd each other, Commando was useful here)...still just needed 3 reloads on Tchort. ~2.5 hours Deep Caverns.
- I don't believe at any point in this run I needed to saveload more than approximately 10 times to force "super RNG".  So in other words, this seems like very consistent "easy" run and so not as much of an achievement as I thought it might be.

Tchort Fight Consumables

- I don't know how to get focus stims without killing Coretech employees, so right before I take elevator I just "burn that bridge" and killed some for use during Arke and Tchort fights.  I had a third for mushroom forest but didn't actually need it.
- I don't know how to get regenerative mixture except by killing Caerus Residential Vents guy "Guntar Vasilica" so I'm just doing that in lieu of a better way?
- I got lucky and found exactly one Aegis in Junkyard early on (below the final inner gate in that hut locker?).  Is there a way to 100% reliably obtain this?
- I don't know how to get Iron Gut so I just went ahead without it (assuming at least Lvl14 I could scrape by without it and I did...), is there a way to 100% reliably obtain this?
- Since I'm friendly with faceless I have 100% reliable Super Health Hypos to pair with Morphine (although I guess you only could ever really use 1?)
- I saveloaded for +2 Constitution -2 Dex (or something useless) Junkyard Surprise (previously I used a +1Constitution Burger, which seems much less smart).

Tchort Fight Details

- I still didn't need to do Mutagen Puzzle (I didn't actually come that close to dieing at all with a logical Morphine timing, the only problem is Fatigue when my adrenaline wears off..Tchort has got to go right around that time or I lose)
- I stealth down the ladder, drug up in the little hut, then stealth up to the first tentacle (somehow I can do this even with my goggles and CAU armor...why is that even possible with so little stealth?)
- I can still kill tentacles in a single burst so I just kill the front two and start focusing Tchort...only takes 3 bursts if I decently roll. 
- The adds (side spawn enemies) barely don't reach me in time and after Tchort dies they more or less clean themselves up.

Arke Basement

- This was a *noticeably* bigger pain with <120 effective hacking (which I had on Lvl16 run).  I did a probably silly strategy where instead of killing everything with traps, I planted one TNT and lured almost ALL spiders out of big electricity room and into hallway where they had a civil war fighting scorpions and I was able to actually sneak by without fighting (except earlier, the first small room with two spiders for door key to open the big electricity room).
- I wonder if 13 perception is even worth it if doing a Lvl14 run, maybe +11 Per and then +2 higher intelligence makes for better crafting gear and hacking so it's actually even easier overall?  Not sure on the math.

Mushroom Forest

- Is this actually doable without CAU Armor?  These guys do serious damage to me even when wearing that.  It's a good thing I kill those sentries in one burst.  I used adrenaline to run past the second half of room before the heart room.
- Taking the "northern" path to the heart and hiding behind the rock or whatever allows me to alternate between killing the sentry and shooting the heart from relative safety

Tchort Institute
- Without the 120 hacking skill I was worried that I would need to spend a lot of time to get to the elevator (either slogging fighting or questing)...
- But I didn't realize until just yesterday that you can sneak into Eidein's office, kill his guards to trigger "tremors", go down elevator, go BACK UP elevator, and he is there?!
- So I just assassinate him and go back down and done with Institute, within minutes of joining the Institute.
- I do not know if this is a "bug" but it is confusing that some zones "autohostile" you even when stealthed (rest of the Institute) and others don't (elevator area) even when they both have an alert "Eye" to indicate "Controlled Zone"

Lunatic Mall

- I open the door at the entrance without combat, then kill the first two Lunatics in a single burst turn (while patrolling guy is not in line of sight).  This allows ending combat and waiting out the "Noise Alert Movement" (is there a term for this?) of the rest of the floor.  After this happens, I could directly stealth to floor 2 without anymore fighting.  This is definitely 100% reproducible.
- On floor 2 I perform the same quick kill/wait out Noise Alert Movement for the 2 guys on the left-hand-side, then the patrolling guy, then the person inside the bottom left store
- I can destealth, adrenaline, stealth from the bottom left nook to the statue without any more fighting (it's fairly tight but with 235 stealth not too bad, could definitely do with some amount less)
- So in total I completed Lunatic Mall with 2 + 4 kills total.

Coretech Warehouse

- I just like Coretech, it probably makes no sense for me to have joined them
- For the Warehouse fight, I used 30 bear traps on nearly every entrance square and bursted every trio of enemies as soon as they entered within 2 turns.  I was able to exit combat/save after every single triple.  Commando definitely trivializes this fight.



So until somebody posts a more detailed tutorial or beats me to it, I guess I have to ponder: should I try jumping right into a Level 4 tinker run?  Or should I play it "safe" and try Level 12 psionic?  Will update again if/when I am able to find any success (or any failure  ).  Thank you all again for the inspiration and feedback and discussion.

18

General / Re: [Spoilers for potentially everything] Minimum Level To Complete Dominating?

« on: February 23, 2018, 08:56:32 am »

That was fast, thanks for all of the responses!  I think I've learned a lot already here, and I'm humbled by how much I was not aware of.  I also have many more questions.  I am definitely motivated to try to push further.

TheAverageGortsby: Interesting about Grenadier, I've never gotten it.  I've haven't been using grenades all that much, though I know molotov fire is quite impactful, but it seems I've been missing out.  The Psi build information is exactly the kind of thing I wanted to read.  In all honesty I have zero clue of what you're describing (always did AR builds) but you are convincing me that perhaps I've been really missing out on some overpowered abilities/math. I will definitely want to explore this (if somebody else does not first).

Tygrende: Incredible if true, I had no idea.  Are you really saying it should be possible to kill Tchort on Dominating with traps at Level 4?  I have been using Bear Traps quite liberally but I had no idea such a thing was possible.  I am not even sure where to begin?  I didn't even know traps worked on Tchort? (I've only ever actually set Bear Traps and even then out of combat.)

At level 4, how do you not get one-shot/stunlocked/rooted by anything and everything?  Surely you can't stealth to even approach Tchort so you fight your way there with traps?  How are you not overwhelmed by all of the enemies?

And you have no problem anywhere else, such as Arke?  You simply place as many traps all over the floor as possible with max stealth gear otherwise?

I don't directly doubt you, it's just that off the top of my head it makes me feel like I must really misunderstand some fundamental mechanics of the game if this is possible.  I'm interested to learn more if you're willing to elaborate.

destroyor: Okay cool, I'm happy to hear confirmation on some points and I also feel as though I am more in your corner in terms of concerns (roadblocks).  Other comments here make me think that I've been really overestimating the complexity of beating the game at low level so at least I'm not crazy in thinking some of these things, even if doable, are at least not *obvious*.

First it was traps and now throwing, two things that I just automatically assumed could not possibly be effective in the final fight are heavily recommended in this thread.  Extremely interesting to me.  I have never run a character with more than Throwing 0.  I seem to have really misunderstood the effectiveness of these weapons?

In my mental simulation of a throwing/trap character vs. Tchort, I climb down the ladder, a tentacle pops up, and I instantly die.  If I highroll, I kill one tentacle and then die to the next 3.  Can you point out my misconception here?  It really sounds like I'm grossly misunderstanding how survivability for these builds works.  I am assuming Chemical Assault Unit armor...is there something that is better for this fight that I could have at level 4 or level 10?

sthalik: Buying the best possible early stealth gear plus eating an Agility steak and patience + saveloading will let (I believe) nearly any character build successfully sneak past the Newton Azuridae.  I've never actually fought them on Dominating before.  To be fair though, I've never actually tried 0 points in stealth + low agility builds.  If you are a stealthy build and/or have Interloper you can realistically do it without even saveloading (though it wouldn't be trivially easy).

The most powerful build?  Not sure, it depends on how you define power.  It seems fair to say though that any build that can complete Dominating at levels 16 and below is surely a *very strong/effective* build.  So probably every single build mentioned in this thread is extremely strong.

19

General / [Spoilers for potentially everything] Minimum Level To Complete Dominating?

« on: February 22, 2018, 11:23:36 am »

Hi! I've enjoyed this game very much, approximately 200 hours worth so far.  I'm sure this will strike many players as weird, but I approach this game as a puzzle game in optimization.

So far, I have only ever played variations of one build (assault rifles with core feats commando / suppressive&opportunist / full-auto / concentrated fire) and on one patch (current / 1.0.3.20; not sure if I played on a slightly different version before that).  I have done several full run-throughs (starting with normal difficulty and proceeding to dominating).  For my runs (and purposes of discussion here) no Export/Import of characters, CheatEngine, file editing, bugs**, etc. are involved.

I have just today completed a run at Level 16* on Dominating but was able to confirm that at least 1 (and likely 2) feats are unnecessary, though I'm not sure about how many skill points can be cut.  So far I am not having to save/load an outrageous amount (almost certainly less than 1000 loads throughout the whole run, Deep Caverns from elevator to elevator only took ~2.1 hours real time). Tchort itself only took 3 attempts (no mutagen puzzle).

To be clear though, I am not optimizing for time, only minimizing level for now.  Has anybody else attempted this or theorycrafted on the topic?  I admit I didn't search too much because I believe Dominating is relatively new and I also wasn't sure whether this is the same as a "challenge run" or other terminology.  The only challenge involved should be the optimization and planning. In fact, the execution has gotten extremely easy for the most part as each piece has been figured out in detail (though this will probably change at lower level).

Is there a different build that I should attempt for lower levels?  My goal is probably 14 with stretch goal of 12.  It's actually not even clear to me how exactly I should best proceed below 14 right now, but I believe 14 should definitely be doable with very close to the approach I am using now.  I don't have much evidence but based on my limited experience it is hard to imagine sub-12 being possible even with perfect luck (unless there is some insanely broken item or skill I am unaware of).  Am I wrong here?

Lunatic Mall and Tchort seem to be the two gatekeepers so far, though the IRIS Core Fight is probably going to become non-skippable and might be an issue (I've embarrassingly never tried that fight in any play through).  Though painful and arduous, I can imagine at least the Lunatic Mall being completed at Level 11 with copious traps and patience (including the patience to obtain and craft level-optimal House-buffed gear).  I'm not sure about getting past the other two.

Many thanks in advance for any input or knowledge this forum can share!  I have really appreciated both this site and the wiki for reference during my most recent run especially.

*Level 16 points were the last points spent and my Save Files indicate Level 16 but the Character Sheet will show 17 due to gained experience.
**At least as far as I know, certainly hard to be certain since I don't know exactly how to define a bug, but nothing that clearly trivializes the game or is explicitly indicated as not intended via GUI.  For example (almost certainly not a bug but hopefully this conveys the idea), if Rathound Regalia working in Deep Caverns is a "bug" that could only be confirmed by the developer I think.