Messages

16

General / Re: PLEASE HELP! Minigun and LMG hitchance % either bugged, either I am stupid.

« on: November 16, 2023, 09:30:44 pm »

Why go through all the hoops - why, for supreme firepower .44 and 12.7 calibers offer. Explosive and especially contaminated rounds are dope. Also, not all players go for "most cookie-cutter" things - quite many love a challenge, which is another, completely different, reason.

As for way lower accuracy per bullet - my only guess for a rationale here is that pistols and crossbow fire every projectile after the user made good aim, while minigun spits most bullets while the user is managing the recoil, hence unable to aim nearly as well for each bullet fired.

edit: oh and also, why bother with ARs and SMGs, if Fusion Cannon exists? With a build properly tailored to use all the feats and features Fusion Cannon can benefit from, and going with 2 shots per turn, Fusion Cannon just wipes out things left and right even ARs and SMGs would have some trouble dealing with. And at practically any range bar beyond-usual-vision places (which are very few) where sniper rifles outrange it. %)

17

General / Re: PLEASE HELP! Minigun and LMG hitchance % either bugged, either I am stupid.

« on: November 16, 2023, 09:05:32 pm »

You ain't supposed to go chase things with a minigun, see. You're supposed to find some corner and stand your ground, while slowing any incoming foes. Strafe feat to negate move and shoot penalty to be able to fire without it after hiding behind some corner. Suppressive fire to slow 'em down, with some cryogas grenades on top whenever it's worth it. At least that's how i dig the whole minigun idea: it's intended to make us largely stationary "turret" and mowing down any amount of opposition able and willing to get into minigun's actual effective (~5 tiles) range, while in the same time wounding-or-killing anything beyond that range by the same volley.

18

General / Re: PLEASE HELP! Minigun and LMG hitchance % either bugged, either I am stupid.

« on: November 16, 2023, 08:50:13 pm »

My character has 140 (base) and 294 (total with buffs) Heavy Guns skill, and 17(!!!) (11 base, 14 with buffs+Brute Aim perk) perception, 14 strength.
I tried whatever possible, when I aim anything with minigun at the distance of 7 tiles, I get 16% (!!! ridiculous) unfocused aim chance at 7 tiles away from target, and ONLY 24% when focused.
...
Please help!

Confirmed: 24% hit chance with a minigun vs a camera in Your House at 7 tiles distance, while Focused. Same percentage - with very similar Heavy Guns (effective 301; edit: also it's the same even with 343 effective Heavy Guns) and same 14 Str, as per the screenshot. Seems like it's capped by distance, to me.

As for "please help!" part - this low hit chance is only at 7 tiles distance. It will rapidly go higher and higher the closer you go to a target (or the closer a target gets to you, ofc). It looks like miniguns are hard-coded to behave this way. Not oh so major problem given the amount of bullets they spit out, though - especially with Jumpstart mk2 motor, which is +2 bullets from very 1st volley and +2 more on top after each burst. Though i agree 24% focused at max effective distance is quite too low. Ain't exactly what we expect to see at _effective_ range, yep.

19

Builds / Re: General Build Guide for Heavy Duty DLC (Minor Spoilers)

« on: November 15, 2023, 01:09:56 am »

...
Yeah, it’s the training room, when activating the console you’ll get 3-4 squads of soldiers depending on the options chosen, activating all quadrants spawns 4 squads of 6 soldiers which include 2 intercessors and 3 technomedics. If you kill all the soldiers in the compound (amount depends on difficulty) they won’t spawn. If you do it before killing cognator all of the soldiers will have 4 stacks of the buff. The secret version is if you kill too many patrols, where all of the enemies in the encounter are replaced with psychophracts, who have extremely high damage psi abilities.

Now that's interesting!

In my 2nd going through the Heavy Duty, i took the time to wipe out all the patrols before the training-sesson map (but not anything "beyond" it, if to count maps towards the Cognator). Then i went into the training-session map and activated the encounter, activating all quadrants. After defeating all 4 packs, i then went forward, into maps closer to Cognator's room - and what i encountered is that all the patrols there became psychophracts, BUT the few stationary enemeis in one of following maps - remained varied-class soldiers. And there were quite a lot of such all-psychophract patrols in there, too.

And after i wiped all the psychophract patrols there - i think there were maybe 8 or more - the paths which these patrols used to walk through still remained patrolled, but merely by a single robot (randomly one of two possible kinds), and these single-robot patrols were seemingly endless: i wiped some 30+ of these, but they kept and kept coming. Walked through many maps back and forth, but these lone robots still kept coming.

If all this is somehow related to some "secret encounter", though - then what's the point? I mean, is there any reward for dealing - this or that way - with a crapton of these psychophracts? I didn't find any of the sort...

20

Builds / Re: Glass cannon minigun

« on: November 15, 2023, 12:59:03 am »

TL;DR

Ok, man, specially for you - the TL;DR version: "go max Str Versatility craft 200-ammo 12.7 mm 14-str-req minigun and crapton of Contaminated ammo plant TNT wait for mobs to gather and pwn big time".

Better?

21

General / Re: LMG gameplay feels unsatisfying

« on: November 15, 2023, 12:56:14 am »

LMGs have better damage than SMGs. A Muzzled Ratchet cost 25 ap to fire and shoots 15 9mm bullets per burst with Full auto, Mag Dump, and Mag Dump Spec. With Specced Heavy metal you turn 75% of armor penalty into damage, the max armor penalty you can get is 173, so you get a ~130% damage increase for your heavy guns. You will generally kill the majority of enemies in 1-2 bullets with that much damage, but against tanker foes like dreadnoughts or nagas you have concentrated fire for an even larger damage boost. Specced Bullet trance damage gives a 10% damage boost per kill up to a max of a 50% damage boost after 5 kills. You get less bursts and less bullets than an SMG, but in exchange each bullet deals tremendously more damage. You’re both wrong in what the best ap to damage ratio is though, Fusion cannon beats both LMGs and SMGs because it benefits from extremely high base damage, heavy metal, high technicalities, tricky trajectory, and deals damage types that are rarely resisted.

Good arguments, but still disputable. Heavy Metal itself - i already mentioned how ~twice more bullets translate into twice more potency of Expertise, which at least reduces the edge LMGs get outta Heavy Metal. Now we're talking specialization - well then, what about Critical Power fully specced for a Steel Cat SMG build with properly potent (read - 100% crit chance) Ambush on top? What good huge damage per bullet does, if SMGs can similarly kill most enemies with 1-2 bullets whenever bursting vs ambushed foes? And you can illuminate wide areas with Telekinetic Proxy, incendiaries and even 8.6mm incendiary ammo, which Steel Cats can fire (unlike all but one LMGs).

I.e., don't think LMGs get uniquely much extra damage potential outta all sorts of feats and features - SMGs get along rather swell too. My post above was more or less "non-crit base damage comparison" only...

22

General / Re: LMG gameplay feels unsatisfying

« on: November 14, 2023, 03:42:46 pm »

...
- Best AP to damage ratio in whole game, bar none. You can get 80+ damage per non-crit bullet at lvl 10, and shoot 11-13 of them at lvl 10. With 80%+ accuracy. For 25 AP. This means you can deal 2K damage per turn, without any AP boosts at lvl 10. No other weapon type can match that. And you scale well from that as well in the end game.
...

This is not true. Best AP to non-crit damage ratio was, and still is, an SMG build (while best AP to crit damage is, of course, crafted energy pistols with their insane crit damage bonus when min-maxed for it). An SMG would go like this:

- Dex 12 (by level 8 ): 7.62 mm Steel Cat is ~8 AP base cost (with Rapid Reloader, which LMGs can't use);
- Spec Ops feat (level 8 feat): 200% burst cost (only works for SMGs), hence ~16 AP burst cost;
- same +2 bullets per burst from Muzzle Brake LMGs use;
- same Full-Auto feat for +2 bullets more, Str allowing, which LMGs also can use;
- Commando feat: an extra free burst every turn provided something dies after initial 3 bursts. Doesn't work for LMGs - AR/SMG only feat.

The latter is level 14 feat, though obviously it's just too good not to mention.

Result being, 4 bursts per turn without any AP bonuses (16x3 = 48 AP, plus a free one from Commando feat) - in any fight where such firepower would be desired (multiple enemies). Base damage is not too hugely different, too: q158 7.62mm Steel Cat SMG - deals 16-49 base damage (before any Per damage increase), while q159 9mm Grudge LMG - deals 38-47 base damage, i.e. even lower maximum damage than said SMG. Reload costs for lower SMG ammo capacity - can and should be trivialized with corresponding belt and/or feat. Also, Rapid Reloader proc practically guarantees some extra AP for an extra reload every turn - again, something LMGs don't get.

And then, with further +Dexterity increases (as it should be for an all-out SMG build), base and burst AP costs will further decrease at higher levels: 7 AP base / 14 AP burst at level 20 (with 15 Dex), and even 6 AP / 12 AP burst at level 26. The latter allowing to do 5 bursts per turn (with Commando), before any AP bonuses.

Bottom line: 4...5 9-bullet bursts per turn, with barely lower base damage (SMGs) - vs just 2 13-bullet bursts per turn (LMGs). That's 36...45 bullets spit out (SMGs) vs 26 bullets (LMGs). And more flexibility - shorter but more numerous bursts allow to better control overkill and multiple directions, as needed. Clear winner, to me, is SMGs - and by far. Damage-wise for non-crit, that is.

Where LMGs get ahead - is not damage, but range, if to compare with SMGs. Thus it much depends on playstyle: is long-range burst fire much desired? Then go LMGs and/or ARs. That's when these truly shine. But if sheer AP-to-damage is the goal, then go SMGs (and no heavy armor - high mobility is king whenever playing mid-range SMG builds). And it's quite right things are so - in real world, a good SMG is also usually better at close/mid range sheer firepower, outta sheer fire rate (Uzis and such) and compactness of ammo (P-90 and such). That's why SMGs exist to beging with - a crapton of firepower in a compact package.

P.S. Oh and as for Heavy Metal feat - replace it with Expertise for SMG non-crit damage, which most likely won't be as potent as Heavy Metal, but given how many bullets per turn SMGs can dish out - is nothing to sneeze at either, especially at higher levels. It's up to 900 damage per turn from Expertise alone per every 5-burst turn by level 20 - almost half of said 2k LMGs can spit out. With times more damage outta SMG itself and all relevant damage bonuses, of course. So 2k total damage per turn - is quite low, see...

23

General / Re: Lore / references question

« on: November 11, 2023, 10:39:33 pm »

I'm not so sure if it's zombies because it probably would have mentioned walking corpses or the living dead rather than ravenous beasts, which in itself is pretty vague. My money is on Metro:2033.

Vague indeed. May or may not be zombies, yep. Metro:2033 though? Strange. Tunnels and metro stations are dark alright, but not quite "lands", you know? And above-ground, iirc, Metro:2033 is proper daylight when appropriate. Also, "lifeless"? How exactly M:2k33 "lifeless"?

24

Builds / Re: General Build Guide for Heavy Duty DLC (Minor Spoilers)

« on: November 11, 2023, 10:32:12 pm »

It's a 40 50 AP single fire, AoE weapon which does 100-129 base electric and 100-129 base energy damage per shot to an area

It's also the only unique weapon that you have to put together yourself, meaning that depending on the quality of the components you use to assemble it, it may perform better or worse than the example you gave or the one that the wiki gives.

You _can_ put it together yourself, but you don't have to do it. Further, you can't learn the blueprints required to craft it if you got no Disassemble feat - and i recon, most builds don't take Disassemble. So even to craft it - you gotta find a Fusion Cannon (ready to be used weapon) 1st, anyway. Otherwise, there would nothing to disassemble to learn the blueprints from.

Damage number i gave above are from a Fusion Cannon i found in my 1st going, wiki lists a bit different damage numbers, so it may be that Fusion Cannon can spawn with a bit varying damage range / quality.

And yes, if one goes to craft it, then it can be much different damage / durability / energy capacity. I've crafted one with 183 plasma core and 159 emitter, which in practice pretty much the best possible to get (with a lot of shopping), unless supremely lucky to find all the fine needed electronic components significantly above quality 160 in DC, which is on the screenshot.

25

General / Re: (Underrail: Heavy Duty) I think I lost the gunslinger

« on: November 11, 2023, 05:55:28 pm »

Didn't check if he's near the train. By "testing", i mean i tried it in multiple maps - it was at least 3 different maps, possibly 4 - and he disappeared (from the spot i told him to wait at) every time i tried it.

Great to know he may well be back at the train, too. Thanks!

26

General / Re: Lore / references question

« on: November 11, 2023, 05:52:31 pm »

Any zombie apocalypse scenario?

It sounds quite like it's something with zombies, yes - but the mysterious part, to me, is "dark and lifeless" lands. Especially "lifeless".

27

General / Lore / references question

« on: November 11, 2023, 03:43:18 am »

In the attached screenshot, there are references to works of art about postapocalypse, which i instantly recognise - except one: the 2nd option. What it refers to?

P.S. The others are, i recon, this: 1st is a reference to Waterworld; 3rd is clearly about Underrail itself; 4th is Mad Max; and 5th is Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind.

28

Builds / Re: NOOB - Advice on LMG Tin Can

« on: November 09, 2023, 04:17:33 am »

He mentioned crafting, even considering getting crafting perks. All crafting skills are Int-based.

29

Builds / Re: Glass cannon minigun

« on: November 09, 2023, 03:22:59 am »

Why not just go 11 (or 12) str and 16 per (effectively 19 with brute aim)? You'll have way higher guns skill and spec points to spare. Str versatility doesn't make sense when there's  the Brute Aim feat.

There are multiple, combining answers to this question. Some are given in the "Pros of the build" section (lines ##4, 5, 6, 7, 13). Others are mentioned in "notable gear" section, like Power Fist and Balor's Hammer. Yet the main reason - wasn't mentioned yet: how often do we get to play a build featuring maxed or almost-maxed strength which is yet highly capable in ranged combat as well? These are quite few, if any, because normally there's little reason to do this, indeed. But high Str requirement of miniguns makes this option way more attractive.

There is still one more reason, on top: considering what we're getting by going Heavy Guns / high Perception path for a minigun-focused build. 19 effective Per vs 19 effective Str (before any buffs, but keeping Rathound Regalia's +1 and +3 from Industrial Exoskeleton, averaged to +2 for the sake of simplicity) - so it's plain simple +25% effective skill value (from said 80% Versatility percentage to 100% of "naturally developed" Heavy Guns). This ain't oh so big damage increase, and it'll work for Heavy Guns only: merely +16.8%.

The above is calculated by this: level 30, with 160 base skill points invested and 19 effective stat, effective skill value will be 160 * 2.275 = 364. 80% of this - is 291. Damage scaled for these two effective skill values - are x355% and x304% correspondedly. Therefore, going Per way - means damage increase of (355% / 304%) x 100% - 100% = 16.8%.

There would be even smaller practical accuracy increase, as at such high skill levels accuracy is maxed in all but few cases even in Dominating. This is the usual for all combat skills: damage formula effectively implements diminishing returns, meaning the higher you get, the less relative increase you obtain per each skill point increased.

So i asked myself: do i want to invest into Heavy Guns skill and make Per the main stat, knowing there ain't any feats i need (obviously, Brute Aim does nothing if going Strength-based Versatility, so this one is not desired for this build at all if going Str) - merely for a modest damage increase for already hugely-damaging (if need be) minigun build - or do i want freedom to pick Aimed Shot, Ambush (both require Guns - not Heavy Guns), all the melee feats, and get all the things i started this post with? The answer is quite clear to me: screw Heavy Guns. Fast and stronk - is the way of a reckless minigunner!

Edit: oh, and your math is off, too: going 11 hard-pt strength, with all other stats unchanged, will only allow 14 hard-pt Perception - not 16. Shave a few percent off that +16.8% above, then. Edit2: and if you meant going Int 3 and no Versatility whatsoever - then there's one major problem with this: you can't kill every single hopper and lone psi beetle with minigun bursts. These things eat tons of ammo which is hella expensive, which means side arms are key for a minigun build to be any good. LMGs as only good type of sidearm is an idea which would most likely work in non-Dominating runs, but it has more than one drawback in it even if doable without too much suffering. This is why Versatility is a pillar in and of itself, and it requires Int 5. The only question to me was which skill would be the maxed skill for Versatility - not whether to do a Versatility build or no-Versatility build.

30

General / Re: Underrail character builder - new one provided by Stygiansoftware?

« on: November 08, 2023, 11:34:34 pm »

... For these reasons, character builder is very useful to me, min/maxing exploration skills without wasting any points. ... in the end Character Builder is just a quality of life tool.

Ah, and about this. This is very true for a "more recent" / "new generation" turn-based player, yet in the same time it's very wrong for the old-school way of playing. And it's not just a history thing - fact is, there are great reasons for _both_ ways (with and without using a builder).

- if one uses a builder, then:
-- he saves time whenever many sufficiently different combos of various things are to be "tried", especially if the user is not very agile about juggling numbers inside their mind (ariphmetics, short-term memory for multiple stats' values, etc), and thus a builder can be very helpful for them. But,
-- he risks, at all times, to miss some important detail or even get something wrong merely because the builder is incompletely and/or even incorrectly models how the game handles all the numbers and systems, which, depending on both builder and specific build, can be anything from insignificant to very bad.

- if one does not use a builder, then:
-- he often spends more time to try various things, needs to make specific permanent saves at specific points to later load for experiments of all sorts, etc. However, if the user has a habit of doing this, he also saves time needed to alt-tab and duplicate any particular partially-built character in a builder, and overall is not bothered much 'cause he's just used to do it this way (lots of old-shool players are), so this may range from not inconvinient at all to pretty inconvinient, depending on user;
-- there is no risk of something working "not exactly how it does in game", because it _is_ in-game.

I.e., builders are quality of life tools, yes - but only for some players, not all. And again, i think there ain't no "proper" way here: both kinds of players have proper reasons to prefer this or that way. In ideal world, both kinds of players should have all the quality of life tools avialable to them, and each uses whichever they prefer however much they prefer: above, it's "either-or" merely for simplicity, in practice many players use builders not as much as they could, but still use 'em somewhat. But again, there are reasons not to have builders available, per above great discussion.

Sigh. Guess Styg will just do whatever is his thing and it'll be it. No easy way out, eh. %)