Normal difficulty, Shotgun build + time build

[woodsparrow]

I played up through the end of the tutorial with a cool SMG build, and a guide. But what I really wanted to play through as was a shotgun build.

https://underrail.info/build/?AQUGBwMJAwcPAAoAAAAACg8PAAAPAAoACgAAAA8FAAAkKxnfvA

Here's my idea of a starting block. 5 strength means I won't use the burst shotguns, but I wasn't planning on that, so I think I'm OK. 6 Dex because I like grenadier, 7 intel because I plan on doing a decent amount of crafting and wanted gun nut. I can be talked out of either if they are traps. But this is just normal mode, so I figured I was probably OK. I may not have the feats to do those anyway.

Plan to take psi empathy and just do temporal.

For defensive skills - should I take dodge and evasion? It seems like no one does, and they just suggest using massive damage, traps, and breaking line of sight instead.

For stealth - I didn't really use it much in my SMG play. I preferred to use traps, line of sight, and other tools. It just didn't mesh much with me. I tossed 10 points in with the intention of boosting it with gear on top of that if I really need to, but maybe that's a waste?

Level 4
https://underrail.info/build/?BAUGCAMJAwceAA8AAAAAChkZAAoZABkAGQAAAB4UAAAkKzkZwrDfvA

Level 9 - I push for 45 effective persuasion to convinces SGS to help in the Junkyard. Max out chemistry for Mark 4 grenades and such, prior to doing Depot A. Same for mech and tailoring, intention is to go in with decent crafted gear. Should I just skip the SGS check and avoid using persuasion?

https://underrail.info/build/?CQUGCQMJAwc3ABQAAAAACjIyAA8yADcAKAAAACgzAAAkKzkZwrDClt-8

Level 10 - probably where I enter the depot, or I gain it during the depot.

https://underrail.info/build/?CgUGCQMJAwc8ABgAAAAACjc3ABQ3ADcALQAAADIzAAAkKzkZwrDClsKQwoffvA

I'm struggling with where to focus on shotgun feats, and where to put in psy feats.

[Ordine]

Might I suggest you read my guide 
https://stygiansoftware.com/forums/index.php?topic=8725.0
It's a little old and I should probably update it with different feats but it gives a general idea
and also read peet's guide
https://stygiansoftware.com/forums/index.php?topic=8908.0

And about your questions
Grenadier is very good, so good that you could clear normal with just that and high tier grenades, I almost stopped using them after early game because I find them boring but the flashbang cooldown reduction is still very useful for longer fights
Gun Nut is meh, 15% upper range is very small as it will average out anyway, might as well choose something else or an utility feat
Dodge/Evasion is all or nothing, you could max one both or none, but I think evasion is better for all the ranged enemies in the game and because a simple bear trap will stop melee. And yes, not getting hit in the first place because the enemy is dead or hiding behind a corner makes them useless, you max them for the situations where you can't do those things. Small exception would be 40 dodge for Escape artist.
Stealth is a gamechanger, scouting ahead, starting combat on your terms and simply deleting an enemy before it even starts or avoid the fight entirely instead of having to shoot everything in the game. You don't even need to max it, 100 effective with skills points + gear boosts is enough to stealth past everything in the game.
Crafting, oh boy. Putting a lot of points early game in crafting means you're not putting them in skills you probably want more but some points are still very useful, I just think you need to change your priorities. First of all, almost every build can get by with uniques and scavenged gear until you have enough crafting to make something better but shotgun(and AR from the top of my head) want a crafted gun as soon as possible, so Mechanics early to make a Forward Grip shotgun I feel is mandatory(and to make repair kits), with 20ap per attack you can now shoot 3 times with adrenaline or Contraction and still have enough AP to use other drugs or reload depending on your belt. A little bit of Electronics early can get you a Taser by getting a very low quality Electroshock Generator from Old Jonas and a core from Ezra but you won't need much. You're playing normal so Chemistry can be delayed and the tier 2 grenades from the merchants are enough to clear Depot A and after that you can buy higher tiers from other merchants, even tier 4 from a couple of them. The real goal would be tier 5 but getting there is much farther than early game, as I said before I don't use many damage grenade after the early game(because I play dominating) and I usually stop at 60 to make tier 3 incendiary, I would see if you have spares after you put points into everything else but it's up to you. Biology is simple, just enough for the drugs you want but remember to get enough for toxic gas grenades by the time you're fully exploring Foundry, you'll thank me later. Tailoring(other than 50 points for repair kits) can be delayed for quite a while(even for the repair kits), finding a decent Tactical Vest is easy and crafting your endgame armor is a long term goal.
Persuasion is completely up to you, it's mostly to skip some fights, easier ways to finish some quests and RP situations.
What I'm not seeing is mercantile, probably the most important skill in the game(change my mind). The expanded merchant inventories is what gets you higher tier grenades earlier and the endgame components for your final gear and the lower prices are a good bonus.

[woodsparrow]

Yes! I read both builds and thought I would try a bit of a crossmash of what I found interesting. I wasn't sure how playing in normal would effect choices since the player has way more health and the enemies have way less.

I totally get how useful stealth is, I just don't think I enjoy it. I was hoping I could skip it. But if I've got people who are really good at the game saying it's that important I'll adapt. To me it feels like if I was going stealth I'd like to go full ninja or sneak snipe.

Chemistry I was thinking of moving up for mark 4 frag. Are you saying skip it, for the most part, then buy grenade because the created ones are a bit over kill? It was nice having a 'delete you' button by using mark 4 frags at level 10 or 11

I like the idea of bumping evasion but using enough dodge for uncanny and then calling it a day. Do bear traps work on every enemy? I know by the end of depot a I have not run into everything the game offers. If they don't, how do you control melee from getting into range?

I'll give the guides another read tonight.

[Ordine]

Stealth is not "important", since you haven't played through the full game having the option of knowing what you're up against when exploring would make the game less frustrating, but if you don't like it you could instead put some points into con so you won't be gunned down as easily, maybe even forego some damage with the crit chance armor I'd wear and wear heavier armor, maybe even go for metal armor, that would require some stat reshuffling but it's an option. Only gear boosts plus a cloaking device if needed is enough to stealth from a lot of enemies on normal so it's still an option.
I would skip it because you can buy mark 4 and because I don't like them, but if you want you can use them earlier. I'm just min max oriented so I don't want to put points into things I won't use.
Be careful about uncanny dodge, only 2 attacks at the minimun requirements means all the actions from a sledgehammer enemy but only 2 out of the many attacks from an enemy with a knife which makes it kinda pointless.
Using bear traps effectively requires a bit of meta knowledge that I can share:
all enemies will try to get to you in the shortest path to you,
enemies will not walk over fire or acid, I don't remember exactly but I think if they're immune to either of those they will walk over them, for example acid dogs walking over the vomit they just launched at you
animals are dumb and will walk over traps so you can put one between you and them and trigger it easily
humans are different, they all have their own detection stat which will check against your traps skill so even if you can use a simple bear trap with 0 skill they will detect it and walk around it, if you're in stealth and they detect it they'll even walk to it and disarm it which  could be useless to lure people. But there's a trick, if you put a bear trap right around a corner they'll try to path to you using the shortest distance and because they couldn't detect the trap before they turned the corner they'll walk right into it, once again line of sight is king.

[woodsparrow]

That's funny, I was accidentally using that corner trap thing the other night when clearing out the Protectorate jail - bear trap the door then walk around the corner.

I think I'm OK with skipping stealth. I can save-scum my way through scouting a bit. It will be less optimal, but in theory I should be able to trap, grenade, or just shotgun, my way through.

I forgot that Gun Nut only effected the top damage range - less useful. I'll skip it, which in turn means skipping the 7 int requirement.

I don't think I want to go full heavy armor, I'll probably try to stick around 15% to take advantage of nimble. BUT, the first 5-10 levels I don't see any points to really put into dodge or evasion, so should I scrap that idea and go heavier armor? Just forgo nimble entirely then?

Skipping stealth also means I don't take blindsiding. And lowering int means no Philosophy perk I guess (would need 7 to get to level 3 with a buff), but I'm not sure if that matters since I would mostly be using TM for stasis and the related 'adrenaline shot style' feats.

I can start with 5/6/8/5/8/3/5 and not have any penalties aside from will, which I won't be using. I could go to 3 or 4 on intelligence but since I want to do moderate amounts of crafting, the penalty seems like a bad idea to take on. Con I figured offsets my 'not using stealth' approach, strength I need 5 for most shotguns, 6 dex for grenadier because I do quite enjoy it and think I'll stick with using them, even if I just buy grenades.

For crafting, I will say I don't want to depend on house, drug, other things to 'temp boost' my stats. I'd prefer to just having to going right, so the no intelligence penalty thing is really appealing.

Level 4 would look something like this:

https://underrail.info/build/?BAUGCAUJAwUeABQAAAAAABkZAA8FFAoFHgAAAB4AABkkORnCsN-8

Pushing to level 10, I've put mercantile at 25 because that's what's best before depot A, per various things. 20 points in Bio for gas grenades but I stopped there. Pushed TM to 35 per advice from a couple guides. Throwing to 30 for grenadier. Tailoring pushed to 50 for siphoner leather armor. Pushed some more crafting skills since I wasn't quite sure where to put points. Could have started on dodge/evasion I guess.

I don't think I want to push biology much beyond 20 - I don't want to farm deep caverns or fish, which seems to be a requirement.

I put my spare stats into perception - which means I wouldn't get blitz. If I instead put them into agility I could get blitz, but is it worth pushing for by 10? Online reviews vary from 'it's absolutely needed' to 'it's completely useless'. Wasn't sure how it would mesh with normal mode's lower health pools on enemies giving me more resources to work with via more kills, and me having adrenaline and TM available anyway.

Then after 10, after depot A, not quite sure what to do aside from continue to increase guns, hacking/lock, try to get crafting to 100-150 apparently, and I guess mercantile up.

[Ordine]

If you don't want to use stealth then I would consider getting at least evasion + nimble or getting metal armor and skipping nimble or your f9 will suffer, but be careful if you use metal armor as hit and run works off of you max MP and high armor penanlty means you have no base MP which means you'll have to remember to use sprint(which increases max MP) before you start shooting or you'll be a sitting duck.
I wouldn't put points into trap if you only plan on using the base bear trap and using corners,
Blitz if you can get the full AP is one more, which is one more dead enemy(hopefully), without stealth it's going to be a little harder to juggle your MP to maximize it as you would need to use them to get to the enemy.
Basically the normal encounter resolution for the stealth version would be:
approach unseen right near an enemy for barrel stare, sprint + contraction then blitz for 2 more shots(or Contraction plus the MP from Hit and Run+ 2 spec points if you want to keep Sprint to reposition), kill the enemy in front of you and get MP from Hit and Run, move to another enemy, kill, repeat. With so many attacks that first turn there's very few places where you aren't done but if that happens you have statis or 1000 MP to reposition.
Without stealth, with low armor penalty you could do the same thanks to the natural MP you have and 1 of the many other tools you have. with metal armor you probably have to wait around a corner or you won't have enough MP.
I love blitz for this build, one more attack is a lot for a weapon that uses so much AP but if you don't want to bother with the MP juggling you'll have to live with the decrease in damage and you can decrease AGI to 7, but if you do get it put the first 2 point into AGI so you can have it as soon as possible.
Skill minmaxing is an art, a very painful art, you could check destroyor's guide on steam
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=843557165
the Skill check thresholds has values for the non-crafting skills so you don't overshoot, and if not the drugs you should consider at least the most common equipment that boosts those skills(not the specific faction equipment).
For crafting it is different, you don't have enough skill points to do everything, that's why everyone has the benches in mind by default + food and drugs, I managed to get enough without the food + drugs boosts but that's because I didn't use dodge/evasion

[woodsparrow]

Thanks! I cross checked the skill thresholds, and it seems like 30 for grenadier is good for me, plus 20 in biology and chemistry if I don't want to push for mark 4 frag and higher tier incendiary. 130 on the locks/hacks, mercantile up to about 140 since I have the DLCs, and up to 160 in traps if I want to be able to disarm everything. I'm on the fence about that.

I still like the idea of no stealth, so I think I'll try to make medium armor and nimble work, while fitting in dodge and evasion. I'll focus on blitz by level 10, with TM as a supplement as I can fit in stats.

So start like this:

https://underrail.info/build/?AQUGCAUIAwUPAA8AAA8PAAoKAAUABQUFAAAAAA8AAAUkGd-8

Then by level 5 end up somewhere like this:

https://underrail.info/build/?BQUGCQUIAwUjAB4AABkZABkZAAoKFAoKBQAAABkAABkkGTnCsN-8

By level 10, be ready to enter depot a:

https://underrail.info/build/?CgUGCgUIAwU8AB4AADIyACgoABQPFBQUMgAAACgAABkkGTnCsBbClkffvA

I pushed TM to 35 effective, I pushed tailoring to 50 for siphoner leather. Mechanics I let lag. 20 in bio/chem to be able to make toxic grenades but I left them there. Electronics for making a taser and parked. Keep dodge/evasion up 5-10 points below the hard cap as I'm able, hacking/locking should be enough

At 11 I'll probably push lock/hack to 50 because I believe there are some checks for that in depot A, and I'll normally be going in around 10-11. I'll dump another 5-10 into traps as well, just to be able to disarm the mines.

Level 15 guess
https://underrail.info/build/?DwUGCgUJAwVVAB4AAEZGAEFBABkoKBQUMgAAADIAADIkGTnCsBbClkfCmMKP37w

Pushing to level 16 we can get Tricky trajectory - which I don't think I've seen anyone else take. It seems like it would be a good take, for evasion and bonus damage? If it's bad, I can swap it with Pellet Mayhem, which I still haven't grabbed.

Level 20
https://underrail.info/build/?FAUGCgULAwVuAB4AAFpaAFpaAB48PBQUMgAAAEYAAEYkGTnCsBbClkfCmMKPw6LCkCjit7AF37w

I'm starting to understand why people suggest skipping crafting and using house/drugs - it looked like there were plenty of skill points but honestly I feel like maxing out guns, keeping hack/lock/dodge/evasion at useful levels, then throwing on mercantile to support crafting and crafting skills, plus TM, is too much. Looking at the skill check requirements, I don't think I'll end up meeting them for mercantile, and I'm not sure I'll meet them for lock/hack.

Also at 20 I realized I forgot to take the psi-empathy feat, so I clicked that then did temporal acceleration. Whoops. Probably should have done that more around level 14?

Level 25
https://underrail.info/build/?GQUGCwULAwXChwAeAABubgB4bgAeRkYUFEYAAABVAABkJBk5wrAWwpZHwpjCj8OiwpArwocowojioIoB4rGWBOK3sAXfvA

You can _really_ see that I'm lost here. I started picking up psi feats I probably should have had earlier. I stop TM since I have effective 75, which I believe is the cap.

Level 30
https://underrail.info/build/?HgUGCwULAwXCoAAeAADCjMKMAMKCbgAeX18UFF8AAABVAADCgiQZOcKwFsKWR8KYwo_DosKQK8KHKMKIwqTCtT_ioIoF4qWKAeKxlgTit7AF37w

So here's basically the end, I guess? I don't know that crafting proved useful or that I had enough ranks. Maybe I should stick 20 points in bio/chem for gas grenades, then do mechanics for making shotguns, and skip the rest? Or skip the rest and go mechanic/electronic for shields and shotguns crafting?

Traps and throwing ended up around 30 - not sure if it's worth more, or even worth going that high, I ran out of points to put into traps very early on and stopped, so maybe those 30 points could be redirected to dodge/evasion, or to throwing.

Mercantile...got there eventually, but I have a suspicion it would be in the last leg of the game. Not sure if that's too late to be useful.

If I skip traps, bio/chem/tailoring I can end up with something more like this:

https://underrail.info/build/?HgUGCwULAwXCoADCmwAAwqDCoADCgm4AAF9fAAAAAAAAVQAAwoIkGTnCsMKWR8KYwo_DosKQK8KHKMKIwqTCtT_ioIoF4qWKAeKxlgTit7AF37w

[Ordine]

I'm looking at the lvl 30 and I'm already seeing some big mistakes, for example you put too much in lockpicking and hacking, what you need is the number in parenthesis not the skills points invested, or some wrong feats like Tricky Trajectory  which only works with grenade launchers, not hand thrown grenades.
This is what I would do given your desires:
lvl 1
https://underrail.info/build/?AQUGCAUIAwUPAA8AAAAPAA8PAAAPDwAAAAAAAAAAAA85JN-8
lvl 30
https://underrail.info/build/?HgUGCgUMAwXCoABFAAAowqAAX1QAAGjChzFNfAAAAEYAAFMrOSTCsBbClh5Hwo9BGcKHJsKQwpjCtcKkMeKgigXip5YF4rewBd-8
Main points to note:
put the first 2 stat point into AGI for blitz, put the rest in PER for damage
it needs 3 items to meet the lockpicking/hacking/mercantile thresholds, jackknife(lockpicking) which you find very early during the GMS compound quest, huxkey(lock and hacking) which I recommend you spoil how to get as it can be missed in a long quest chain, Large waist pack(mercantile) which you can find in the world as random loot or from merchants.
No need for drugs(drug really, there's only one that boosts INT which boosts crafting) or food to boost crafting but you do need the benches to reach the hypothetical 160 quality of all components for the gear you should wear (mechanics, electronics and tailoring), chemistry to craft tier 3 incendiary which you could boost to 69 with benches to craft grenades tier 4 or even put points into it to reach normally, 90 biology to craft the best health hypos but this could be lowered(not recommended) maximum to 45 as you can't buy Focus Stims
The build has 30 free points which you could use if you don't want to spoil the huxkey and you miss it, if you find it you could put them in throwing but it doesn't really matter.
Equipment is the same recommended from my build, maybe going for the double shotguns in hand so you don't even have to reload.
I skipped dodge and put lots of tools to deal with melee, kneecap shot makes metal armor enemies basically immobile and other enemies will have a hard time reaching you, uncanny dodge  can be used to al least evade a sledgehammer to the face for one turn(vs knife it's going to be a little harder but better than nothing).
80 effective throwing so you don't miss when throwing 4 tiles away which is enough so you aren't in the range of the grenade
skipped Traps, you only need it to disarm them which is not needed and with high PER you'll still spot all of them on normal and because we're short on points
couldn't fit persuasion but with some reshuffling you could use it for some checks but might as well skip it entirely
Mercantile you only need 105 effective to unlock the best tier of merchandise from a very late game merchant, the higher points in the DLC are only need to get more money from some things or lower the price of jet skis but you'll be swimming in money

[woodsparrow]

Thanks. I'm about to level 10 with my attempt at a build, and it's for sure not working well.

The skill guide I checked said 130 for hacking/lock, but I forgot you can get items to boost those. I'm still messing around with the early game, so all I have access to is a level 2 haxxor and lockpick, for the 5 rank boost (plus a jackknife).

Double thanks for the mercantile clarification - the guide just said 'up to 140 needed for the dlc' so I was aiming for that.

As far as Tricky trajectory, I even took the time to look it up and see if it would work with shotguns, and the internet said yes. Bit frustrated that it was wrong, but I was questioning that anyway.

As I get used to the shotgun, I'm thinking I may move back to the original SMG build I started the game on. I can't really figure out the cone/spread of shotguns on this game so I'm not making the most out of the 'area effect' aspect. I mostly am using it to chunk down single targets, which feels lackluster since I get two shots per turn right now. Mostly I'm doing grenade/trap use, which wasn't exactly the point here.

[Ordine]

It's fine about the cone it won't really matter unless they're all bunched up unlike AR and yes, it's a little rough early game when you have 2 shots per turn but it gets better with levels