Dodge/Evasion Psi Monk - Input appreciated

[Deger]

TL;DR:
I want a lightly armored psi monk that can initiate combat from stealth and has enough skill points for high quality crafting, hacking/lockpicking everything and is able to use persuade or their jewish heritage mercantile in all situations.
Gloves seem more versatile than pure unarmed, lets me carry a secondary pair of lightning gloves for AoE or enemies with very high mechanic resistance.

http://underrail.info.tm/build/?HgMOBwMDBwkAAADCoMKgwqA8PSwAAFRUABpUAMKgADdJAEUmJysdICoSDQYkFE4ME8KHBzxL4p2NCuKfhAHisZYE378

Reasoning for Attributes:
3 STR - See DEX.
14 DEX - Feels like you either dump STR or DEX, the latter suits this build much more and grants more skill points. 14 is enough for 4 AP attacks with tabi & leather gloves.
7 AGI - Movement and initiative is good but already get it from other sources, minimum req for Fancy Footwork and Interloper.
3 CON - Better spent elsewhere.
3 PER - Better spent elsewhere.
7 WIL - Premeditation is great.
9 INT - Crafting skills leech a lot of skill points.

Reasoning for Crafting Skills:
Mechanics for gloves and tactical vest.
Electronics for shield, psi headband and Electroshock Generator gloves.
Biology for some consumables and psi beetle carapace tac vest (best choice?)

Skill point division is rough estimate, think I need about this many but might increase/decrease some.
There's Intelligence boosting food, right? Can't find it on the wiki but think I read about the expansion adding it, with crafting bench and +1 INT this should allow me to craft anything.

Reasoning for Feats: (mentioning things I myself or other people might question)
Pack Rathound - Never playing a 3 STR character without this QoL perk again.
Opportunist - If it's added multiplicative after damage is calculated it seems very good, if it's additive I'd consider a different feat.
Veteran Feats - Don't seem to fit this build, maybe DEX veterancy if Opportunist is additive.
Dirty Kick - Looks good on paper but maybe I have enough CC and can use this feat slot for something else.

Reasoning for Specializations:
Considering synergies with feats/base abilities, crit damage Cheap Shot seems like the obvious choice.
1 point for Expose Weakness duration seems like super value.
More AP with Psychotemporal Acceleration means more punching.

[cypherusuh]

Imo, if you wanna max dodge and evasion, you HAVE to min-max around it, else it won't be that good. Which means, you have to have high Agi and great siphoner sets. Fortunately, it's very possible to have high Agi on psi monk, you could go  10 Agi 10 Dex 6 INT. You have 2 extra base stats point which you could put on CON, WILL, or INT.
Then you just go 14 dex and 12 Agi. For specialization, pick Increased Agi, then Expert Sprint.
Alternatively, you could go 11 agi, 5 Will + 1, then wear Tchortist noble robe so you could interact with most skill checks.

Skill-wise, your mercantile and persuasion are over-capped. 105 mercantile and 110 persuasion is the max needed. You could get massive persuasion bonus from Heartbreakers leather or Jkk gear, while Hypercerebrix +2 INT also affects mercantile. And don't forget Underpie, it could saves you some point on very rare case of capped skill check, on both social and lock/hack.

You also need 70 Biology to craft int drug, and i recommend to not depend on crafting bonuses for biology and chemistry, since you won't get any crafting bonus and no additional stockpile to craft int drug nor underpie in DC

Haste specialization is incredibly bad, you'd better off put 5 on Critical power, or better yet, 2 Premeditation (which should be an autopick, first 2 spec point, if you have that feat due to insanely good bonus)

You could refer to many psi monk thread on lots of other optimizations

[Deger]

Imo, if you wanna max dodge and evasion, you HAVE to min-max around it, else it won't be that good.Which means, you have to have high Agi and great siphoner sets. Fortunately, it's very possible to have high Agi on psi monk, you could go  10 Agi 10 Dex 6 INT. Then you just go 14 dex and 12 Agi.

Is it necessary to go this hard for dodge/evasion? I'm going for a playthrough on hard and when I say Dodge/Evasion Psi Monk I mainly mean a build not so much reliant on armor or HP values, I'm happy if I can push Dodge/Evasion to functional values that lets me survive, don't necessarily aim for 10% chance to be hit (which is maximum % afaik?) as a gimmick if it's not vital to my survival.

For specialization, pick Increased Agi, then Expert Sprint.

Which feats do you suggest I sacrifice for Sprint and AGI Veterancy? (Do I even need Sprint with Psycho-temporal Contraction and Fancy Footwork?)
How do I reach 13 AGI for Expert Sprint? Both 7 WIL and 6 INT grant access to the great feats Premeditation and Force User. If I drop DEX it increases attacks by 1 AP.

Alternatively, you could go 11 agi, 5 Will + 1, then wear Tchortist noble robe so you could interact with most skill checks.

Force User and reaching the 200 skill break point for Force Emission damage seems worth the 7 WIL investment to me.

Skill-wise, your mercantile and persuasion are over-capped. 105 mercantile and 110 persuasion is the max needed. You could get massive persuasion bonus from Heartbreakers leather or Jkk gear, while Hypercerebrix +2 INT also affects mercantile. And don't forget Underpie, it could saves you some point on very rare case of capped skill check, on both social and lock/hack.

So I should take a ~+16 crafting skill and ~+10 mercentile into account for Hypercerebrix and 10-15 persuasion from a chest piece.
But after putting Biology all the way up to 70 and reducing the above mentioned stats to reach their maximum requirements only with temporary boosts, I don't have any leftover skill points that would let me also lower my intelligence down from 9.

Attached picture is with +2 INT boost, crafting benches, Underpie and JKK chest piece.
http://underrail.info.tm/build/?HgMOCgMDBwYAAADCoMKgwqA8PSwAAElJAEZJAMKgADc7AEgmJysdICoSDQYkFE4ME8KHBzxL4p2NCuKfhAHisZYE378

If I drop down to 6 INT and put them into AGI, my mechanics, electronics and tailoring all drop down to ~115 when utilizing both Underpie and Hypercerebrix, which feels as if it's on the lower end.

Haste specialization is incredibly bad, you'd better off put 5 on Critical power, or better yet, 2 Premeditation (which should be an autopick, first 2 spec point, if you have that feat due to insanely good bonus)

You could refer to many psi monk thread on lots of other optimizations

I guess a total of 12 AP over 3 rounds isn't amazing, I've looked around at a bunch of different posts/threads regarding psi monks and it did help me but they've all varied from what I'm looking for.

[cypherusuh]

This is my Force User psi monk build, played it until around lv 18 then dropped because the build is too strong imo (tested on hard, capable to clear Ironheads base in 3-4 turn each screen)
http://underrail.info.tm/build/?HgMMCAUDBwYAMADCoCjCoEpLMQAAVmQANVQAwqAANykARyskT1AgFCoTFsKHEjwHQgxBwrIo4p-EAeKfhQXiorUC4qalAuKopgXfvw
Maybe you could take some inspiration from it.

It is necessary to go that hard if you wanna go for dodge/Eva. It's one of the shittiest skill in the game, it's so bad because you have to essentially has more skills than your opponent to make it worth it, even then, it's only like 50% miss, or even worse.
For dodge, deflection and Uncanny Dodge usually good enough from just 40 Dodge, as you'll have enough guaranteed melee dodge (even then, it's rarely happen if you know how to utilize psychokinesis stalling tactics), so you just need to max evasion.Eva is still kinda shit, but at the very least, high evasion reduced AoE damage significantly, you won't need to worry about mines and grenadier (need 350 Eva to reduce explosion by 85%)

As for feat, I'd drop Interloper, dirty kick, fancy footwork, escape artist. Take sprint, expert sprint, Blitz, Veteran Agi
If you need some stun, taser is much better than dirty kick. Just makes sure to stock 2-3 very low quality Electroshock Generator (<q20), since it would be hard, if not impossible, to get that low after you done drill parts quest. Higher quality consumes more energy, and it doesnt scale stun duration, while the damage is still crap even with q160

[cypherusuh]

Tbh your build could works just fine, although I recommend to reduce dodge to 40 and take Uncanny Dodge, while making evasion as dumping skill, just don't rely on it for defense. Also with nimble, don't forget that you're able to equip TacVest and Riot Gear, when you need some extra defense
And as I said on my previous post, Interloper only increased your stealth move speed very slightly (45% - > 30%) and 15 MP is practically nothing unless you have Quick Tinkering to put bear trap right behind you

[Deger]

As for feat, I'd drop Interloper, dirty kick, fancy footwork, escape artist. Take sprint, expert sprint, Blitz, Veteran Agi

I still don't know how to fit Expert Sprint which requires 13 AGI. If I drop WIL I lose Force User, if I drop INT I lose Premeditation, if I drop DEX I increase my attacks by 1 AP.
Is Escape Artist not valuable for a melee build? There are so many fucks with nets or acid blobs, seems like an absolute pain for melee.

This is my Force User psi monk build, played it until around lv 18 then dropped because the build is too strong imo (tested on hard, capable to clear Ironheads base in 3-4 turn each screen)
http://underrail.info.tm/build/?HgMMCAUDBwYAMADCoCjCoEpLMQAAVmQANVQAwqAANykARyskT1AgFCoTFsKHEjwHQgxBwrIo4p-EAeKfhQXiorUC4qalAuKopgXfvw
Maybe you could take some inspiration from it.

I like your version which adds more of a buffer with CON so a hit or two that slip through don't necessarily mean the end. Without Expert Sprint, the regular version feels useless.
Saw that you're using Vile Weaponry, I like the theoretical synergy with Taste for Blood but what's the best way to trigger bleeding? I figured I'd just use glove enhancements but Vile Weaponry specifies cold weapon.
Haven't used grenades much in the past due to playing pure psi but Grenadier feat does seem useful as support for a build like this.

Dropping Dodge saves me a ton of skill points and I can easily max all relevant crafting skills, not sure about AGI vs CON. +4 CON gives me 120 HP and +4 AGI gives me ~60 Evasion. A total of 200 HP at lvl 30 seems pretty scary but I guess the question is if the majority of things wont finish me instantly regardless of that extra 120 HP or not.
http://underrail.info.tm/build/?HgMOCAUDBwYAKADCoCjCoERDLAAAX18ARl8AwqAANzsASCYnKyQgKhIGFAzChwc8S0FCwrIW4p2NCuKfhAHiorUC4qe-At-_

[cypherusuh]

"Cold Weapons" means any non-firearm source. Serrated blades and bear trap works for that. It helps increasing your damage around end-game, also negates most of the healer. Keep in mind that later, the enemies will use advanced hypo, which usually heals them back to full.

Grenadier is amazing if you pick hybrid. With Limited Temporal Increment, your grenade only has 1 turn cool down! It's basically guaranteed kill for grouped enemies, since grenade with appropriate tier usually damages at least 50% of their hp. Lure them, wait in corner with Force Field (3 turn with Force User!), everyone waiting outside of FF, back up, throw grenade + flashbang + LTI, throw grenade next turn. It's basically the ultimate cheese way to kill anything.

I would honestly pick CON. 60 evasion is not that good. You could get up to 65 Eva/dodge from high quality infused great siphoner. The reason I was recommending expert sprint, is because of evasion and dodge. You have to do that if you wanna rely on it, and there's a lot more better option (such as utilizing FF which negate any hit opportunity altogether).
I always run on 3 CON unless I missed being a tank. With proper armor, you'll rarely got "1-shotted". Ofc it's very possible, almost guaranteed to, getting killed in 1 turn if you don't "gitgud" on combat strategy. But as long as you're often pressing that F5 button, it should be fine. And if it's impossible, you could retreat pre-combat and return after gearing up.
Tanky build also has its disadvantages, it's quite expensive to heal up to max. Very bothersome if you have OCD seen your health in 84% or waiting minutes to get it regen from 90%. I usually pick Doctor on high CON build, waiting 1 minute for hypo cooldown on hard+ sucks, better just eat some bandages after battle.

As for your new build plan, everything seems good. If you wanna min-max a bit, 62 effective persuasion + Jkk uniform + Heartbreaker boots + underpie could get you to 110 at DC check. Persuasion sometimes requires 4-5 points to break certain number, so it might helps. I also recommend not to max evasion from the start. Prioritize crafting first, then put evasion if you have leftover.

[Deger]

The reason I was recommending expert sprint, is because of evasion and dodge. You have to do that if you wanna rely on it, and there's a lot more better option (such as utilizing FF which negate any hit opportunity altogether).

How come Sprint is so valuable for dodge/evasion builds? With FF do you mean Fleet Footed and would you recommend I try to fit it back into the last build I posted? Hard choice deciding what to drop for it.

I would honestly pick CON. 60 evasion is not that good. You could get up to 65 Eva/dodge from high quality infused great siphoner.

I always run on 3 CON unless I missed being a tank. With proper armor, you'll rarely got "1-shotted". Ofc it's very possible, almost guaranteed to, getting killed in 1 turn if you don't "gitgud" on combat strategy. But as long as you're often pressing that F5 button, it should be fine. And if it's impossible, you could retreat pre-combat and return after gearing up.
Tanky build also has its disadvantages, it's quite expensive to heal up to max. Very bothersome if you have OCD seen your health in 84% or waiting minutes to get it regen from 90%. I usually pick Doctor on high CON build, waiting 1 minute for hypo cooldown on hard+ sucks, better just eat some bandages after battle.

So going for 7 CON on my build might not be worth it then since I'll probably go for some medium armor like tactical vest and don't have any other feats that synergize and make the build tankier?
What about going all in on DEX and putting those 2 points + DEX veterancy towards it instead, for a total of 18?

As for your new build plan, everything seems good. If you wanna min-max a bit, 62 effective persuasion + Jkk uniform + Heartbreaker boots + underpie could get you to 110 at DC check. Persuasion sometimes requires 4-5 points to break certain number, so it might helps. I also recommend not to max evasion from the start. Prioritize crafting first, then put evasion if you have leftover.

My builder says I need 55 persuasion (82 effective) and 68 mercantile (90 effective) to reach an effective 110 per and 105 merc after applying that gear and underpie whilst sitting at 7 WIL and 6 (8 Hypercerebrix) INT.

[cypherusuh]

I said it in a wrong way. High Agi is recommended for dodge build and while we're at it, expert sprint is a good pick, as there's gear that reduced Sprint CD, making it more reliable MP and AP booster, combined with Blitz, that's a lotta AP.
If you leave dodge at 40, it's fine not to put high Agi.
Also FF = Force Field

7 CON is still okay. More health is still nice, so you could have more breathing room and take some mistake move or critical fail attacks/grenade throw
Max Dex is a waste for fist build imo. You'll lose lightning punch bonus after 14 Dex, since it's capped at 4 AP. although, max dex can make heavy armor punching build viable, albeit you have to wait until late game to enjoy low AP cost. If you're confident / don't mind reloads with 3 CON build, you could always put extra points on INT. More free crafting point is always welcomed, and you could divert extra points to Throwing / biology skills.

The builder haven't been updated on Core City faction update. Jkk set has a lot more persuasion bonus and they sells light armored stuff, which aligned with your build. Ofc you could pick any faction you want and leave it be. It only saves very small amount of skill points anyway

[Deger]

I said it in a wrong way. High Agi is recommended for dodge build and while we're at it, expert sprint is a good pick, as there's gear that reduced Sprint CD, making it more reliable MP and AP booster, combined with Blitz, that's a lotta AP.

I can't fit Expert Sprint on this build since it needs 13 AGI, would work on non Psi Monk builds I reckon but reducing INT, WIL or DEX even by 1 point is a massive detriment to the build.

If you leave dodge at 40, it's fine not to put high Agi.

And you said this would be fine even with a low CON build if I have deflect and Uncanny Dodge, right?

7 CON is still okay. More health is still nice, so you could have more breathing room and take some mistake move or critical fail attacks/grenade throw
Max Dex is a waste for fist build imo. You'll lose lightning punch bonus after 14 Dex, since it's capped at 4 AP. although, max dex can make heavy armor punching build viable, albeit you have to wait until late game to enjoy low AP cost. If you're confident / don't mind reloads with 3 CON build, you could always put extra points on INT. More free crafting point is always welcomed, and you could divert extra points to Throwing / biology skills.

Fully buffed my crafting skills are already at 149 (Biology 110) so more INT doesn't feel absolutely necessary. Might go the CON route.
http://underrail.info.tm/build/?HgMOCAUDBwYAKADCoCjCoD9GLAAAX18ARl8AwqAANzcARCYnKyQgKhIGFAzChwc8S0FCFsKy4p2NCuKfhAHiorUC4qe-At-_

The builder haven't been updated on Core City faction update. Jkk set has a lot more persuasion bonus and they sells light armored stuff, which aligned with your build. Ofc you could pick any faction you want and leave it be. It only saves very small amount of skill points anyway

Oh good to know, and I'm perfectly fine going for JKK as I haven't done their questline yet. Was my plan all along actually.

[cypherusuh]

Protip : you'll lose any buff access in DC (unless you stockpile hypercerebrix and Underpie) so it's better to plan Biology and Chemistry as is, without relying on buff.
Bio is not as important, since you could finish the game without crafting any drugs. Although 115 biology is nice for regenerative mixture.
Everything on your new builder is looking good I guess, although imo, it's better to pick Force User (4), premed (6), lightning punch ( and rely on Psi ability early on. FU that early makes you capable of 1-shotting almost anything and a simple cryokinesis could help finishing low HP / triggering explosive barrels / kiting them to death. Level 8 is the usual level to tackle Depot A, so you could makes use of your fist over there, since they have small mechanical DR/DT
Or instead of LP on 8, you could pick grenadier(, LP (10) and depends on force field + frag grenade mk2 combo, those dogs are soft enough to get 1shotted by it. Fist ain't that strong before you cleared drill parts and unlocked high quality serrated blades and leathers (or simply rush that unique fist in Core City Sewer)

[Deger]

Protip : you'll lose any buff access in DC (unless you stockpile hypercerebrix and Underpie) so it's better to plan Biology and Chemistry as is, without relying on buff.
Bio is not as important, since you could finish the game without crafting any drugs. Although 115 biology is nice for regenerative mixture.

Ideally I'll gather high quality components to craft all my gear at once and repeat later after I've managed to find enough components of even higher quality. Might be a nice QoL to not rely on Underpie for persuasion though.
Also the way I see Biology as, is the first 70 points pretty much pay for themselves since the +2 INT adds +~20 to Electronics, Mechanics and Tailoring, making it a 10 point investment in return for being able to craft a whole lot of different consumables.

Regenerative Mixture seems very good but that requires a further 45 skill points, would need to drop 1-2 CON for INT most likely. I started the game with

STR 3
DEX 10
AGI 8
CON 3
PER 3
WIL 7
INT 6

So that I'll be able to make adjustments as I see fit.

http://underrail.info.tm/build/?HgMOCAMDBwgAKADCoCjCoD9BLQAAWFgAc1gAwqAANygARCYnKyQUKhYgEgYMwocHQTxCS8Ky4p2NCuKfhAHiorUC4qe-At-_
This gives me ~151 effective crafting in Tailoring, Mechanics and Electronics as well as 115 base biology.

Everything on your new builder is looking good I guess, although imo, it's better to pick Force User (4), premed (6), lightning punch ( and rely on Psi ability early on. FU that early makes you capable of 1-shotting almost anything and a simple cryokinesis could help finishing low HP / triggering explosive barrels / kiting them to death. Level 8 is the usual level to tackle Depot A, so you could makes use of your fist over there, since they have small mechanical DR/DT
Or instead of LP on 8, you could pick grenadier(, LP (10) and depends on force field + frag grenade mk2 combo, those dogs are soft enough to get 1shotted by it. Fist ain't that strong before you cleared drill parts and unlocked high quality serrated blades and leathers (or simply rush that unique fist in Core City Sewer)

Oh yeah I hadn't put much thought into the order of my feats on the builder, it's hard to decide past lvl ~12 or so since I don't know if I'll want more offense or defense but prior to that I feel like the build I linked in this post is a good order.
Like you say Force User is amazing early on since it lets you immediately delete an enemy from existence.

[Seven Samurott]

I'm curious how you are distributing your Ability Points from leveling. Since the builds that have been posted are all lvl 30 I'm trying to determine where those abilities were spent.

[cypherusuh]

I'm curious how you are distributing your Ability Points from leveling. Since the builds that have been posted are all lvl 30 I'm trying to determine where those abilities were spent.

The rule of thumb is maxing your offensive ability and/or core "build gimmick".  In this case, you maxed melee, Dodge, evasion, and psychokinesis. Then, you could increase stealth and/or crafting skills.

Rule of thumb for new player, always make manual save BEFORE leveled up. Saving up level until you find high enough quality items is a smart choice, too.

As for me, I usually started leveling my evasion after drill parts, since there's not many ranged enemies before that. And I could grind the animals side-route and foundry to capitalize my dodge while increasing evasion to tackle other area.

Speaking of foundry, your fist might not be good enough, so, as many light weapon build do, you should increase chemistry a bit and craft gas grenade while stocking up Burrower bear trap and caltrops