Juggernaut build that dosnt miss out on crafting and dialouge?

[hases22]

Hello, newbie here looking for a tanky heavy gun build that can craft the best armors and not miss out on dialogue options. Ive looked around but It seems that most of the stuff is outdated. Id like to avoid psi if at all possible. Tanky, and heavy guns should be the focus unless that is not viable, thanks for the help!

[TheAverageGortsby]

Most (not all, of course) dialog options are gated by Persuasion or Intimidation for gathering info or changing effects, or Mercantile for changing rewards.  So pretty much regardless of your stats, all you need are a few dozen points in those skills and you can use gear and buffs to get you to the thresholds you want.

You're probably going to want 7 Int if you're serious about crafting, since most of the best crafting feats are gated by 7 Int; that'll help you get that Mercantile.  Even with 3 Will, you only need like 30 points in Intimidation because there's a lot of +Intimidation gear in the game.  Persuasion will be a little more costly for a 3Will build, because there are fewer gear options to boost your skill, more Persuasion checks (since it has no combat utility, unlike Intimidate), and a lot more medium-high threshold checks.

Fortunately, tin can AR only really requires one skill - Guns.  And it doesn't require maxing Perception, and it relies on mitigation not soaking so you can run it with only moderate Constitution, and aside from 6 Agility you only need Perception, some Stregnth, and whatever Con you can spare.  So you should be able to get 7 Int as well.

Depending on how you feel about using food buffs to keep your character working, you could use something like this as a skeleton build for stats and skills.  The downside is that you'd have to work up to those thresholds so you'd have a longer power curve to ride before you get to full stompy murder machine power; the upside is you'd be able to hit all the thresholds for everything and still have a lot of skill points left over for other things that you could have your character do.

Tin can AR is pretty forgiving, because it's terribly powerful.  Aside from probably needing to do a few merchant runs to keep your ammo stockpile topped up, it's about as simple and un-demanding a build as UnderRail offers.

edit: fixed link

[hases22]

Would something like this work?

https://underrail.info/build/?HgcDBgoKAwfCoAAAAAAAAAAAAABaWhkjSwAAAABOGT4ITyZVU2NNAEkVSjJFMd-_

[TheAverageGortsby]

Never take Conditioning for any build.  Weaponsmith doesn't apply to firearms so I don't see why you'd want it.  Salesman isn't a waste, and I like it, but I can't really recommend it unless you're sure it's worth a feat slot to be able to sell your accumulated loot in fewer merchant rounds.

[hases22]

hmm I see, misread some of them lol. What feats should I take then? and what should I prio?

[TheAverageGortsby]

I'd probably work towards something like this.  Clearly, there's at least one more feat to take before you can that Veteran feat; I removed Expertise because personally I never really felt it was very effective for ARs which are generally fairly high-damage-per-bullet, but if you want to put it back, it will probably be a noticeable help.  I just think it's not quite as important as other feats in that list.

I'd always suggest taking crafting as late in the game as you're comfortable, and by extension, starting with as low an Intelligence score as you're comfortable with and building it up to 7 as you go.  You really don't need to do any high-skill crafting until level 20 or so - that's about where your character will be by the time you unlock the top-tier vendors, so you won't have much in the way of premium components much before then anyway.

Playing a tin can without Sprint will make you want to kill yourself, so take that fairly early.

[hases22]

thank you for the help, much apericated

[Koveras]

Never take Conditioning for any build.

Conditioning can actually be useful, if a build has other sources of damage reduction (Stoicism, Ancient Rathound leather, lifting belt...). And even if it doesn't, Conditioning makes Morphine/Aegis significantly more potent. That's just like the damage reduction on metal boots: alone it is useless, but if it increases DR from 90% to 95% it doubles effective HP.

[KnifegaF]

First time I’ve ever seen someone shit on conditioning while praising Gun nut. You also need 9 str for tin can.

I disagree with some of the advice given thus far. Disassemble is a noob trap unless you are just using it to make money and even then it’s unnecessary. Go 9 str for tungsten armor and 5 int. The added Str also will help with intimidation since it scaled with Str now. You are already playing a build that will be skill rich, you don’t need the added skill points for crafting you get from high int. Conditioning is also great if you are going that high in con. 15% damage reduction is nothing to sneeze at. No other feat grants that much protection without some other special conditions. Aegis, morphine, and the defense from your armor will make you damn near invincible to most enemies that use mech damage.

[TheAverageGortsby]

Conditioning is also great if you are going that high in con. 15% damage reduction is nothing to sneeze at. No other feat grants that much protection without some other special conditions.

Except it isn't 15% damage reduction.  It's 15% of what gets through first the shield, then the armor, because UnderRail reduces damage in layers.  Since it's a metal armor build, only maybe 10-20% of damage will get through, then Conditioning will reduce 15% of that - so, 2-3% damage reduction.

So think about a big hit on a barely mid-game character.  300 damage comes in.  Shield takes 50.  250 goes to armor, armor block 80%.  50 damage gets through; Conditioning blocks 7, if you've got that high Con.  7 of 300.

Think about a big hit on late game gear.  600 damage comes in.  Shield blocks 130.  470 goes to armor.  Armor is capped and blocks 95%.  23 damage goes to character.  Conditioning blocks 3.  3 of 600.

Best case for Conditioning is a big hit that you don't have armor for.  No fire protection and a barrel blows up.  200 damage.  0 mitigation because your shield is off for whatever reason.  200 damage comes in, Conditioning blocks 30.  You still take 170.  The difference there is no difference.

Conditioning could be good, but instead it's useless.  If its damage reduction applied first, it would be amazing, a must-have for tanky builds.  If it stacked with armor to cap, it would be excellent, and a very strong choice for almost any character that gets hit a lot, regardless of gear.  But it doesn't do those things.  It instead does almost nothing.

[KnifegaF]

If his goal is protection then it’s still the better choice. He’s also not going to get to 95% anytime soon. It’s still cutting back damage and if you walk into something like grey army, lunie mall, or natives that 3 damage per strike is huge when you are getting hit by a dozen enemies for 5-10 turns. With a feat rich build what is better? Definitely not gun nut. It’s a 7.5% on average increase of damage for the weapon that already has the highest damage output in the game. Talk about useless.

[TheAverageGortsby]

It’s a 7.5% on average increase of damage for the weapon that already has the highest damage output in the game. Talk about useless.

You're driving the OP into a build you want to play, not one that they asked to play.  The build they asked to play has a bit of stat spread since they wanted crafting and dialog, meaning they end up with a middling Perception, and thus will not get the full dakka dakka of a very high-skill AR.  Gun Nut would be about the equivalent of an extra point of Perception, which will indeed be noticeable - at the higher end of gear, it'll be a greater flat increase than, say, Expertise.  Neither is very useful, though, and you're laughably wrong with your idea that I'm stumping for it.  I just didn't pull it off the feat list that they came up with for their own character, because it's not as useless as Conditioning is.

AR doesn't need anything.  SubterminalOptimization beat Tchort on DOMINATING with a level 6 character using ARs.  ARs don't need any feats at all to beat the game, so it's largely academic.

[KnifegaF]

No I'm not. There are few builds that I want to play less than an AR Tin can. "Hello, newbie here looking for a tanky heavy gun build that can craft the best armors and not miss out on dialogue options." Here are his words. I've given him advice that coincides with his request. I've already given an example of how even that 3 damage makes a difference when long fights with many enemies are constantly pelting you not to mention in the example you gave you are presupposing that he won't run out of his shield and that he will have 95% DR. Even with an endgame shield and 95% DR I've survived with a sliver left. Conditioning made the difference between a reload and not. "AR doesn't need anything." true, least of all Gun nut. Seems like you are making my argument for me with the SubterminalOptimization example.

[Koveras]

I agree that for this specific build Conditioning is not particularly good, simply because metal armor already covers mechanical damage mitigation. Investing in mech damage reduction when you already have 95% mech resist is not useful, sure.

That being said, it is still completely wrong to say that Conditioning is bad no matter the build. For example this meme build of mine is infinitely more resistant to mechanical damage than any tin can, and it uses Conditioning as a core feat. sheepherder also has a nice explanation on why damage reduction can be good in some situations, see his build. Once again: damage resistance and damage reduction both have increasing returns. Invest a little and they are near useless, invest a lot and they shine.