Author Topic: Versatility pistol builds  (Read 8743 times)

Joe_Steel

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Versatility pistol builds
« on: November 19, 2021, 05:10:05 am »
Hey, just finished a hammer wizard and I got a commando belt as random loot and that inspired me to want a versatility build so i can john wick my way through Deep Caverns and kill the Tchort for the crime of being alive. I also really want to try my first dominating play through so i want a dominating viable build.

Niko

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Re: Versatility pistol builds
« Reply #1 on: November 19, 2021, 11:28:19 am »
Might want to add some spoiler alerts there :)

Turbodevil

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Re: Versatility pistol builds
« Reply #2 on: November 19, 2021, 12:12:37 pm »
Commando belt doesn't work well with pistols as they reload 1-2 times per round and bullet strap belt shaves 11AP out of each reload.

Versatility pistols are viable (and OP in endgame) but be aware pistols take long to setup for OP mode and Versatility route (in comparison to Perception) makes it even harder. I other words: prepare for pain during early and mid game.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2021, 12:27:29 pm by Turbodevil »

Joe_Steel

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Re: Versatility pistol builds
« Reply #3 on: November 19, 2021, 07:44:33 pm »
OK does anyone have any tips i could use for a versatility build then?

Niko

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Re: Versatility pistol builds
« Reply #4 on: November 19, 2021, 07:47:21 pm »
Did not proof read my thoughts so I just directly copy pasta what I had in mind 'some day' when I was thinking of doing this run...
https://underrail.info/build/?HgUQBwMDBgZGHgDCoCgAAAAAAAAoAAAAAAAAAMKgAAAAORcrJhbDkVvCh8OSwqMROjEqTsKzGeK1rgrivYQF378


*edit ahh yeah this was one i did actually play, the 6 wil excess went to +3 str to have the carry weight. yeah. i would have won it easier if it was like that. will was just for random fears for less reloads i guess....
« Last Edit: November 19, 2021, 07:51:27 pm by Niko »

Joe_Steel

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Re: Versatility pistol builds
« Reply #5 on: November 19, 2021, 07:51:07 pm »
Thanks guys for the build and tips.

Niko

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Re: Versatility pistol builds
« Reply #6 on: November 19, 2021, 07:54:28 pm »

Turbodevil

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Re: Versatility pistol builds
« Reply #7 on: November 20, 2021, 07:43:10 am »
Tips:

- Bullet Time should be max specced first

- Hit and Run is a must. I recommend you max spec it second. You have low AP instakill shots, 40MP after each kill turns you into god of mobility.

- 70 TM and Stasis is for extending Bullet Time duration, Premeditation before Stasis saves you 15AP

- Max specced bullet time makes your .44' cost: 7AP when 14 Dex, 6AP when 17 Dex, 5AP when 20Dex (final breakpoint). Versatility build shines when it reaches this breakpoint (and it can get there thanks to savescumming Junkyard Surprise, SSD or All-In).

- Special attacks are good because in addition to what they do, they get up to +60% damage thanks to Smart module. But you would need perception for Point Shot and Aimed Shot.

DieGo

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Re: Versatility pistol builds
« Reply #8 on: December 18, 2021, 12:39:00 pm »
I made this build because I really wanted to combine Execute and Cut-Throat but you can take those out if you want to be more optimal: https://underrail.info/build/?HgMQBwMHBAZGAADCoAAAwqBZLjcAYn8sXXUAAABGKwBVARcZHivDkQILw5LCoyYREk9ZwrPCiMKH4rWuBuK8ugTivYQF378
It works surprisingly well (I played on Hard) because guns gets a lot of points off melee with Versatility and Gun-Fu, and melee itself gets a lot of points from DEX which I max'd out anyway to reduce AP cost of pistols. As was said above, Hit and Run was a must to get the movement points. Getting next to your target is absolutely necessary because of Gun-Fu and it negates half their dodge stat since we're using pistols. For the targets I can't approach for some reason I got ambush because it's absolutely busted but otherwise my pistol was a noisy knife that proc's different feats. In the early game having melee was great as well because it helped with the ammo economy before 1-tapping everyone and expose weakness is very nice all throughout the game.
Also, if you get 70 guns and 7 perception (which you want for bullet time and I wanted Kneecap Shot to kite and proc Opportunist), it's only really worth to get Versatility at level 14 so that's why it's there.

ShoggothWhisperer

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Re: Versatility pistol builds
« Reply #9 on: January 01, 2022, 07:31:17 pm »
Commando belt doesn't work well with pistols as they reload 1-2 times per round and bullet strap belt shaves 11AP out of each reload.

Versatility pistols are viable (and OP in endgame) but be aware pistols take long to setup for OP mode and Versatility route (in comparison to Perception) makes it even harder. I other words: prepare for pain during early and mid game.
Commando belt is really good on a versatility energy pistol build, since they can’t benefit from bullet strap belt. Energy Pistols are also better than regular pistols overall, since they have much better crowd control with the electroshock pistol, up to a 40% damage increase with high technicalities, and overwhelmingly higher damage with the plasma pistol, which can be boosted further with stacking crit damage and aimed shot. The only advantages standard pistols have over energy pistols are lower ap cost with gunslinger, an extra special attack with rapid fire, and bullet time, which is admittedly very good. Energy gun versatility builds are less feat intensive than standard firearm pistols, while being superior or equal in firepower to them.

Turbodevil

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Re: Versatility pistol builds
« Reply #10 on: January 02, 2022, 04:34:39 pm »
Energy Pistols are also better than regular pistols overall, since they have much better crowd control with the electroshock pistol, up to a 40% damage increase with high technicalities, and overwhelmingly higher damage with the plasma pistol, which can be boosted further with stacking crit damage and aimed shot. The only advantages standard pistols have over energy pistols are lower ap cost with gunslinger, an extra special attack with rapid fire, and bullet time, which is admittedly very good. Energy gun versatility builds are less feat intensive than standard firearm pistols, while being superior or equal in firepower to them.
Firearm pistols have much more benefits than that:

- ignore up to 40% evasion in close range
- specialized bullets that either pierce most of armor or boost damage to organic targets
- higher non-crit damage, even when compared to big brain High Technicalities
- higher crit chance
- higher hit chance thanks to laser sight
- bonus 15 AP on average thanks to rapid reloader
- extra 7 initiative thanks to Gunslinger
- lower reload cost thanks to bullet strap belt
- rapid fire consistently deletes strongest targets when paired with smart module
- bullet time is not just very good. It doubles your turn. Twice (thanks to Stasis)

I agree that pistols are feat intensive, but Versatility energy pistol builds take long to setup (as both crit and Versatility starts coming around mid-game and reaches full potential only on high-end).

Massacre_Wurm

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Re: Versatility pistol builds
« Reply #11 on: January 02, 2022, 08:06:55 pm »
Speaking of versatility pistol builds...
How gun-fu and versatility ( maxing out melee ) interact with each other ? 

Tytyger

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Re: Versatility pistol builds
« Reply #12 on: January 03, 2022, 01:43:07 am »
Speaking of versatility pistol builds...
How gun-fu and versatility ( maxing out melee ) interact with each other ? 
you get 60(90) skill on top of it

ShoggothWhisperer

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Re: Versatility pistol builds
« Reply #13 on: January 04, 2022, 07:27:25 am »
Energy Pistols are also better than regular pistols overall, since they have much better crowd control with the electroshock pistol, up to a 40% damage increase with high technicalities, and overwhelmingly higher damage with the plasma pistol, which can be boosted further with stacking crit damage and aimed shot. The only advantages standard pistols have over energy pistols are lower ap cost with gunslinger, an extra special attack with rapid fire, and bullet time, which is admittedly very good. Energy gun versatility builds are less feat intensive than standard firearm pistols, while being superior or equal in firepower to them.
Firearm pistols have much more benefits than that:

- ignore up to 40% evasion in close range
- specialized bullets that either pierce most of armor or boost damage to organic targets
- higher non-crit damage, even when compared to big brain High Technicalities
- higher crit chance
- higher hit chance thanks to laser sight
- bonus 15 AP on average thanks to rapid reloader
- extra 7 initiative thanks to Gunslinger
- lower reload cost thanks to bullet strap belt
- rapid fire consistently deletes strongest targets when paired with smart module
- bullet time is not just very good. It doubles your turn. Twice (thanks to Stasis)

I agree that pistols are feat intensive, but Versatility energy pistol builds take long to setup (as both crit and Versatility starts coming around mid-game and reaches full potential only on high-end).
I’ll admit, the evasion boost is nice, although it’s difficult to use ambush at such close range. The specialized ammo on firearm pistols isn’t really a benefit 90% of the time when compared to energy pistols. Energy guns primarily deal energy or electric damage, which are the least resisted damage types in the game, with only expedition bots and coil spiders having any notable resistance to them. Pistols of all varieties are able to obtain massive crit chance through ambush, steadfast aim, infused rat leather armor, ect, so non-crit damage only matters pre-depot A. Most pistils only have 4-5% higher crit chance than energy pistols, and energy pistols have higher crit chance than firearm pistols if using steadfast aim. Laser sight is nice, but you can’t use it on special attacks unless you want to give up your smart module special damage bonus. RR ap refund is nice as well. The initiative boost on gunslinger is mostly redundant on a dex versatility build, since you already get such a massive initiative boost from dex. Firearm pistols requiring bullet strap belt is a downside, since it means they can’t use doctors belt or commando belt, and reloading with batteries only costs 10 ap, so a 6 ap difference compared to bullet strap belt. A crit special attack on an electroshock pistol will delete anything except a coil spider just as well as a rapid fire, and also has the benefit of chaining to 3 nearby enemies and deleting them as well. Bullet time is very good, but it requires specialization points to really shine, which means delaying it until late game or being stuck longer with low accuracy due to unspecced versatility. Stasis is easily the best psi ability in the game by a wide margin, and there isn’t a single build that doesn’t benefit from taking an extra turn, so it shouldn’t factor in to how good a build could be. At the end of the day, both firearm and energy pistols are very good builds, but I’d argue that energy pistols come out on top. As anecdotal evidence, my easiest clear with lunatic mall was with a energy pistol build at level 20, because I could kill 8-10 lunatics per turn by using special attack+ point shot with an electroshock pistol and stacking special attack damage. Before that I was annihilating arena bosses with flashbang+ aimed shot on a plasma pistol. Firearm pistols can have a slightly better turn 1 than energy guns, but in any encounter longer than that energy guns come out on top. As a wise man once said, “If your build needs Stasis and Contraction to function, then it’s a shit build.”

Turbodevil

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Re: Versatility pistol builds
« Reply #14 on: January 04, 2022, 08:32:59 am »
Ambush is universaly good if you want to trigger it but stacking it with evasion reduction at close range is completely redundant. Eva reduction is for when you can't / don't want to ambush that evasive enemy.
Energy pistols does have small subset of resistant enemies, pistols (thanks to W2C ammo) work on everything.
JHP ammo is massive damage boost and helps a lot when fighting natives.
Having real chance to finish enemy off even when non-criting is huge boon.
High caliber pistols have consistently higher critical chance than energy weapons when using steadfast aim, except for plasma weapons if you want to use them for some reason. Even then, the difference is 3% crit chance and if you really want to have equal cc to plasma, you can use 9mm falchion.
Laser sight (+RR) can be used with Smart module (+RR) because you have 2 weapon slots. As for special attacks not having +10% precision, it's your choice which weapon to use: LS against evasive enemy with low hp, Smart module agains tanks, or simply run up to enemy and Point Shot with smart module to the face when it has both high HP and evasion.
Initiative has huge random element and enemies are varied, so +7 initiative makes huge difference even on high dex build if you want to consistently start the fight first.
Bullet Strap belt is not downside, you can use other belt and reload for 11AP more if you want Doctor's pouch for some reason. It's just too good to pass, especially since you can switch ammo types. Having something too good to pass is an upside :)
Crit special attack with smart .44 will delete anything as well, costs 1/3 of electroshock on bullet time, non-crit can kill things as well, pistols have access to Rapid Fire which is absolutely devastating against single target and for electroshock to shine, you need lucky roll on special effect.
It's true bullet time shines later in the game, that's why I advice to not go Versatility route and stick to perception.
The fact Stasis benefits everyone is not relevant, what is important here is the Stasis is specifically even better for firearms pistols because Bullet Time is a buff (very powerful buff) and Stasis, in addition to everything else, extends buff duration. 2 turns of Bullet Time is enough to win most of encounters in the game.

As for anecdotes, I cleared entire upper floor of Lunatic Mall in 3 turns using .44 on level 22-ish and insta deleted every arena fight with rapid fire.

And I strongly disagree with "slightly better turn 1". It's not slightly better, it's absolutely devastating turn 1 and turn 2 with no counter and leaves energy weapons behind in every aspect.

Not saying Energy weapons are bad, or universally worse than firearms btw, they obviously have their uses, unique gameplay, better reward for critting, better for consistent fights, better for drug junkies and are cool. Just want to have fair assessment of both playstyles and firearms, in my opinion, dominate energy weapons during first 2 turns and have many other reasons to pick over lazors.
 
« Last Edit: January 04, 2022, 09:08:04 am by Turbodevil »