[Foundry] Killing "The Beast" Twice

[communistsquirrel]

I wanted to mention a continuity problem. It is possible to kill The Beast twice - first in the mines in regular combat, and then for real by doing the quests. Killing The Beast in combat in the mines rewards (~1k) experience in Classic, but no loot, and does not complete the quest.

I'm not sure if it is intentional that you can kill it in combat. I used the Expose Weakness trait + Psychokinesis abilities to overcome its mechanical resistances.

Killing The Beast in the mines did not break any of the related quests. I guess there were two Beasts there? 

[klei]

I faced the same issue. It seems the game does not implement a quest path in which the beast is killed in the mine by the player... it was quite disappointing that the game ignored the fact that the beast is already dead in the dialogues.

[Tygrende]

Using Expose Weakness to kill otherwise unkillable NPCs/creatures is most likely an unintended exploit.

As far as I know it's also possible to kill Tanner if one is resourceful enough.

[chimaera]

To be honest, I'd prefer if there were no immortal NPCs in the game, but rather if the player would kill anyone necessary to progress in the main plot, the game would inform them that they have failed and it's not possible anymore.

In the case of the beast, I don't even see the point in it being indestructible. Multiple quest solutions is what I would like to see more in RPGs anyway.

[Tygrende]

In the case of the beast, I don't even see the point in it being indestructible.

But it's the whole point of the quest. It's supposed to be invulnerable to any conventional weapons or explosives, otherwise the town wouldn't need your help.

[TΛPETRVE]

Well, but it is also clear that the Mayor of Foundry is an incompetent fuckwad, and the Guard is only marginally better, so I think being able to kill the beast bare-handed and then smugly tell the Mayor "You're all a bunch of useless pansies" would be a nice option.

[communistsquirrel]

I honestly thought that the quest was oriented towards going in there and beating the beast to death with mah fists. Only later, using the wiki, was I able to discover that there was another intended resolution.

I don't really care about how this quest is resolved, but if it is not intended that The Beast be killable, then it should be immune to resistance lowering debuffs, and maybe there should be something that indicates how to properly resolve the quest using the intended mechanisms.

Edit: I know NPCs indicate the Beast is indestructible, but when did that ever stop the PC from doing anything else other characters find impossible? I don't recall any NPC saying "Hmm, well maybe if we could determine the biology of this thing, we could discover how to kill it. Hint hint, wink, wink, nudge, nudge."

[Toast]

I don't recall any NPC saying "Hmm, well maybe if we could determine the biology of this thing, we could discover how to kill it. Hint hint, wink, wink, nudge, nudge."

No NPC says it, but your quest log does. It explicitly says you probably need the help of a biologist to find a weakness.

If you're not the sort to review your quest log notes, I suppose you might never realize what you were expected to do next.

[PhrygianDominant]

It was never intended for the player to be able to kill the Beast by conventional means. That didn't stop anyone from trying, of course, and I remember one player broke its armor right after the Foundry update was released by... punching it. Repeatedly. So, fixed the Beast not being immune to Expose Weakness and similar effects.

As for the quest itself, we have talked about tweaking some of the things that confuse the players in the future (adding more notes, NPC giving you more hints, etc.)

[communistsquirrel]

No NPC says it, but your quest log does. It explicitly says you probably need the help of a biologist to find a weakness.

So,  journal entries do not reflect what NPCs say about a quest.  Stuff that shows in the journal is not what NPCs say, or vice versa? Don't you think that is confusing?

Edit: Like, I'm thinking about this as if your PC is taking notes on what NPCs say, and if no NPC says you should go to a biologist for this quest, then where does that information come from? From the PC's internal thoughts? Dreams? Tought Control mindreading? Did a ghost tell you? Did the PC find a note on the ground? Did the PC have a peyote trip and discover the knowledge through ancient rituals? Where did this information originate? WAS IT ALIENS?! 

I don't think this is the only quest in the game with this type of storytelling discontinuity.

If you're not the sort to review your quest log notes, I suppose you might never realize what you were expected to do next.

Having played many games without quest/journal logs to guide oneself, I do expect the NPC dialogue to contain enough information to get the ball rolling, so to speak. Also, I bet people love that pedantic tone, keep it up!

[communistsquirrel]

As for the quest itself, we have talked about tweaking some of the things that confuse the players in the future (adding more notes, NPC giving you more hints, etc.)

I probably would have resorted to the forums if the wiki was not available for self help. I was certainly confused that punching it to death did not end the quest, and only after did I question the whole enterprise.

A lot of times in games, NPC dialogue will indicate that something is impossible, and then the PC goes and does the impossible. That is the whole point of playing a hero, isn't it? That is basically what you can do here, but there is no payoff, and it is confusing whether there should be a payoff. And then, to finish the quest in the proper fashion, you have the discontinuity of a scripted event where the Beast is killed again.

You could make the quest end humorously, by being able to casually mention to the mayor that you punched the beast to death, no big deal. Put on a pair of shades and walk out.  There is an opportunity here to have an alternative ending to the quest, instead of trying to "fix" it by changing the gameplay mechanics.

[Toast]

If you're not the sort to review your quest log notes, I suppose you might never realize what you were expected to do next.

Having played many games without quest/journal logs to guide oneself, I do expect the NPC dialogue to contain enough information to get the ball rolling, so to speak. Also, I bet people love that pedantic tone, keep it up!

It wasn't meant to be pedantic though? I was acknowledging that not everyone reads their quest notes, and players who aren't in the habit of doing so would probably be confused by this quest, since the quest note is the only clue you get about where to go next.