Author Topic: A Below Average Explanation on how to Improve Your Own Creations  (Read 4793 times)

Hinz

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Good afternoon Southgaters, this is something I've been wanting to do for a while now, but wanted to at least beat the game on normal first. Today I will be discussing one of
my own builds created with little outside references, what I did that was terribly wrong but expected, and my thought process on improving it for higher difficulty.
Before I made this, I had been running Kiruha's dominating crossbow build, because I wanted to experience the game and learn its intricacies. The build had offered a path
I knew would not fail, coming from a much more experienced player and being meant for the dominating difficulty.
 Knowing this didn't sit well with me, because for me, it didn't feel like /I/ was beating the game. Getting stuck in a cultist basement with all hostiles and having my last
save be 3 hours ago also encouraged starting over. Surely enough, the high critical damage from that build stuck with me, and made me want to have it in whatever I planned
on doing. After that I picked up a spear and went into the underrail build tool. From the start I was certain I did not want to use a shield, just a spear, and caltrops.
As a final note before we begin, I did not do any Expedition content in this playthrough (even though I'm using a spear, weird right?). I will also summarize my build
and go into how it works before we focus on improvement, which should be much shorter, and more to the point. I hope new players will take something from this thread that
helps them enjoy Underrail like I do.

The Build

https://underrail.info.tm/build/?GwcPBgYDAwYAwpEAwpEAAAAYQwAceHhAaHQAAAA3fAAwNlDClcKSYcKUwpMxS8KsBj4rwocWwrPinY0I4qe-AuKzmALfvw


Gear

Weapon - Shock Tungsten Steel Spear(AOE) & Energy Tungsten Steel Spear(Single) Clear obvious choices, want as much critical bonus dmg as you can get.

Head   - Kevlar Balaclava(200% bullet and shotgun shell resist, does that stack with riot gear?), Gas Mask (for hazardous environments)

Body   - Your personal preference of Riot Gear, in the early to mid game I crafted whatever I needed at the time. In the late game I ended up with Kevlar Regen Overcoat.

Shield - I carry one of each for specific impact speeds. Dual High Efficiency. Snipers and crossbowmen are real pain in the butt for this build.

Belt   - Utility belt. The four combat utility slots are not to be slept on. Carry around a trapper's belt too.

Boots  - Solid-Padding Ancient Rathound Leather Striders. Mech damage taken reduced by 5% is enough to make me wear these. Make striders as soon as you can for sweet movepoints.


Combat Utility

As these will change as you progress through the game, I will generalize each slot.

Caltrops  - My god what an amazing item. The level of abuse you can reach with these pronged pokers is unreal. Big mean Ironhead hammer dude who just got off the forum about
           to clobber you? Caltrops. They will choose the path of least resistance, even if that means going around an entire building, buying you precious time and cooldowns.
           This also means you can force them to step on caltrops if you are in between two piles, maybe three. Standing in a pile will always result in direct movement to you.
           I can't tell you how many times I've used caltrops in this run, when you start crafting your own, with poison, it just gets better (spirit poison caltrops pls styg).
           In the mid to late game you won't rely on these as much, but still has its uses.

Incendiary- Useful for anyone, I would imagine. Any kind of CC that's also AOE, can leave a DoT, and give light? Man, that's a done deal right there. With a mere 40 chemistry
            you can start pumping out magnesium nades pretty early on, a significant step up from molotovs. This doesn't need much explanation.

Frag      - Since we are maxing throwing alongside melee here, using these make group fights trivial (unless they are damned lunatics). Plain and simple, AOE damage.

EMP Nade  - It's not that we have much trouble with robots, but those two Free Drones aren't going to care about your fire much with their low frequency shields.

Honorable Mentions - Gas Nades: You could just as easily swap these out with emp or frag should the situation present itself.
                  Throwing Net: Yes, kind of a meme, but it does help with kiting early game.
                 ChemHaze Nade: Should you decide to work for Praetorian Security, this bad boy acts similar to a gas nade but has no wind up. Incredibly useful against ranged
                                opponents.
                     Flashbang: Maybe there's a group that just keeps zonin' you out, and you're damn tired of it. The flashbang could be for you. A nice, 2 turn or
                                10 sec out of combat CC. Stealth users love using these to restealth, like true ninjas.

Starting Attributes

Strength - 7 We go for 7 str here just so we can wield Tungsten spears. As a nice addition we also get carry weight (no slow walking here).

Dexterity- 10 No brainer, we want crits and to crit often. Spears are not a light weapon, so it hurts a little, but makes up for it in initiative and crit chance. Spills onto skills nicely too.

Agility  - 5 I wanted to use a spear and riot gear but still have some mobility(more on this error later).

Con      - 6 As we are melee with no stealth, dodge, or evasion we will be taking hits. This will help you be more beefy and is also a req for Fast Metabolism.

Per      - 3 Guns, crossbow, detection, creepy crawlies? We don't care about them, we throw flare and spit in their face. Consider higher PER if you want to find secret areas.

Will     - 3 No mystery why this is low, expect every debuff known to man to meet with you.

Int      - 6 A little Int is nice all round, boosting your effective skill levels and granting some dialogue options. Usually you get Int for specific feats too.


Feats (I will try to explain my thought process as I picked the feats up in game)

Level 1 - Snooping/Fast Metabolism: Alright I won't wait till the improvement section to tell you snooping was a terrible choice here, with only 3 PER. Fast Metabolism on
                                    the other hand I hold in very high regard, 25% bonus healing is what we benefit the most from here.

Level 2 - Spear Throw: Huh, well I got a spear, why not? A very powerful ranged attack that isn't so hot early game but dominates mid to late game, only gets better with
                       Throwing, more on this later.

Level 4 - Fend: For the action point cost of a regular attack, gain Spear Guard that can block 150% more damage than normal. In my eyes this was too good to pass up, use it
                preemptively before fights or before Balor smashes you (you'll still die).

Level 6 - Sure Step: Safely navigate caltrops and puddles of acid. Laugh all you want, but this is core for this build, and will be core in the improvement as well.
                     You will be happy you have this in many encounters.

Level 8 - Impale: A melee Aimed shot, had to have it. Guarantees a crit if it lands.

Level 10- Spear Guardian: Brings your spear guard block% from 50 to 80. Unbelievably good feat.

Level 12- Recklessness: Increases your crit chance for unarmed and weapons by 7%. You are more likely to be crit by 3%. Used in a lot of builds.

Level 14- Crit Power: I took this in the xbow build so it only makes sense right? No.. no it didn't. As Tungsten spears only deal 120% bonus crit damage you are only getting
                      30% extra critical damage, when compared to a 185% crit damage xbow, that number would be much higher. More on this later.

Level 16- Sweep: By the time I had reached this level I was noticing the errors I had accumulated during my playthrough, but was determined to beat the game and make this
                 thread. Sweep is an AOE ability that applies the Off-Balance debuff, reducing enemies evasion and dodge to zero. The debuff is nice but the potential AOE
                 crits with Shock spears is what's appealing to me.

Level 18- Cheap Shots: Increases crit damage bonus of melee attacks by 50% and gives you 15% chance to incapacitate a target. More on this in the improvement section.

Level 20- Three-Pointer: I was really torn between this, grenadier, and hypertoxicity. Gives your damge dealing nades 10% chance to crit. This chance is increased by 1.5%
                         for every 10 points in throwing above 50.

Level 21- Psi Empathy: You know where this is going

Level 22- Psycho-temporal Accl: Straight buff to your psi haste and slow spells.

Level 24- Grenadier: Reduces the cooldown of your grenades. Was just trying to fill out the build at this point.

Level 26- Incr Dex: Hey man, 2 dex is 2 dex.

I did not get any higher level than 27 as I had beaten the game.



Hinz

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Re: A Below Average Explanation on how to Improve Your Own Creations
« Reply #1 on: June 13, 2020, 05:11:55 pm »
Taking notice of room for improvement

Ah, where to begin? How much room for improvement? What did you notice? Many things became clear to me while playing the build out. If I told you I didn't think about restarting in Depot A, I'd
be lying. This section will be less structured than before. To start, my very first mistake was stat allocation. We began with S7 D10 A5 C6 P3 W3 Int 6. At first glance,
this doesn't look too bad right? I would improve this by having 6 AGI and 5 INT. My overcommitted point in INT had drastically delayed a key feat that would have been helpful
much earlier on. In my eyes this was the only mistake with attributes.

Moving onto FEAT selection and order

Many Underrail vets may have burned eyes after seeing this, and for that I am sorry. But this is why we're here.

I stand by Fast Metabolism at Level 1. Snooping was an awful, awful choice for me. Word of advice, have more than 3 per if you take this. If I were to replace snooping I may
go with Paranoia or Recklessness. Spear Throw at level 2 looking back, was not needed so early in the run, as I lacked throwing skill I desperately needed. Wouldn't take
this feat out of the build but recommend taking it at a later level, can reach UBER crits with this. Replace with paranoia? Fend at level 4 in general seemed like a clear choice to me, let me know
what you think. As mentioned before, Sure Step is a must for this build, since you are constantly manipulating enemy movement through use of caltrops.

I set my eyes upon Impale, and sadly, the more I look at it, the more I think it doesn't need to be in the build. While the crit if it hits is nice, taking cheap shots this early on
would have made life much much easier. Spear Guardian.. I think this is an S tier feat for any spear build out there. Taking it at level 10 might have been a tad early
as I could have picked up Sweep, another very good feat that does AOE damage, applies a debuff, and can crit. Since we replaced Snooping with Recklessness and took Paranoia
at level 2, picking up spear throw at 12 doesn't sound like a bad idea, given the point we have more Throwing now.

Heading over to level 14 we are looking at Critical Power. I could certainly use an expert's point of view for this right now. It had worked so well with Kiruha's build, but only cause I had a crossbow with 185% crit damage.
Tungsten spears only have 120% crit damage. With these values, you are getting a whopping 127.50% crit damage bonus on top of what you already have, given you are using
a crossbow. At only 20% above 100, crit power only gives 30% crit damage for spear. Because it is a CRIT build I want to leave it in but won't lose sleep over 30% crit
damage, could just take Spear Guardian here. At level 16, you are very strong at this point in the game, and feat selection can be improved or changed past this point
in many different directions. On a harder difficulty I could see Expose Armor being taken here, but you don't have much problems with armor as you are using a spear.
Hypertoxicity was also something I thought about, just because of how many poisoned caltrops I used, 100% bonus poison damage and +5% per spec point is nothing to shake a
stick at. Three-Pointer can also be considered during this time. At 90 throwing, you have 6% increased chance to crit grenade from Three-Pointer on top of the base 10%
it gives. Grenadier is another option. Just for the improved end build we will go Three Pointer.

When I had chosen Cheap Shots at level 18 and killed a couple things, I had one question. Am I a complete debil for not taking this WAY earlier? Yes is the answer. I was
concerned about the 15% incapacitation rate and had only thought about using it on low ap cost knife builds, but I was so, so wrong. Just by picking this feat you instantly
get 50% crit damage bonus. Huge. You'll max out this specialization. Since we have it way earlier on the improved build we will take Grenadier for level 18, immediately
following Three-Pointer since other feats at this level don't make much sense.

At level 19 you'll pick up Psi Empathy, to utilize overpowered haste and slow spells. Make sure you have 55 base TM at this level. Even without the next feat the spells
by themselves are crazy and should not be discarded. I can't think of anything I'd rather take at level 20 other than Psycho-temporal acceleration.

Past this point, you can take Critical Power for a small increase in damage, possibly Hypertoxicity after that. There are really no good feats that stand out after this with
the exception of Increased Dexterity.

Here is the 'improved' build

https://underrail.info.tm/build/?GAcQBgYDAwUAwoIAwoIAAAAAQwAje3sxeHgAAAA3AABYUDEowpJhBsKswpXCkz4WK8KHSxvinY0J378



If you've made it this far, thank you. As you can see, even after improving a build like this, we were left hungry for better feat selection past level 20. This lets me know
that the improvement, while we changed a lot, could be delved into much deeper. Maybe swords would have been better for something like this. I hope this will serve as a sort
of guidance for the newer players out there who want to beat the game with a build they created. Special thanks to TheAverageGortsby, his Psi Thread gave some inspiration
in writing this. Also special thanks to Kiruha, who's DOMINATING crossbow build helped me learn the game.


Quidam Craft

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Re: A Below Average Explanation on how to Improve Your Own Creations
« Reply #2 on: June 13, 2020, 10:14:04 pm »

Caltrops  - My god what an amazing item. The level of abuse you can reach with these pronged pokers is unreal. Big mean Ironhead hammer dude who just got off the forum about
           to clobber you? Caltrops. They will choose the path of least resistance, even if that means going around an entire building, buying you precious time and cooldowns.
           This also means you can force them to step on caltrops if you are in between two piles, maybe three. Standing in a pile will always result in direct movement to you.
           I can't tell you how many times I've used caltrops in this run, when you start crafting your own, with poison, it just gets better (spirit poison caltrops pls styg).
           In the mid to late game you won't rely on these as much, but still has its uses.


Ho boy ... Yes, 100% True !
That's why Sure Step is a really powerfull feat.

Also not that earlygame, damages of caltrops are not small at all. And with burrower poison, you can take down a lot of foes. Very helpfull during the foundry fight.

Koveras

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Re: A Below Average Explanation on how to Improve Your Own Creations
« Reply #3 on: June 13, 2020, 10:20:48 pm »
Quote
Many Underrail vets may have burned eyes after seeing this, and for that I am sorry. But this is why we're here.

It did burn my eyes. Ouch!
In all seriousness, I wish I did that good on my first build.

There is one thing I'd like to point out. Judging by how you talk about Cheap Shots and Critical Power, you missed something. Critical power applies to all your critical damage bonus, regardless of the source. In particular, it applies to Cheap Shots added damage. So after you took Cheap Shots, Critical Power is actually an additive 95% crit damage bonus. With specialization it becomes stupidly good. The optimal amount of points to allocate to CS/CP can be calculated depending on the build, it is generally a mix of both. For example the critical damage of a tungsten spear is:

100 + ​(70 + ​CS_spec*​5) * ​(2.5 + ​CP_spec*0.15)

If you have 10 spec points, the optimal allocation is 6 points in CS and 4 in CP for 410% critical damage. Long story short, pick Cheap Shots and Critical Power as soon as you can :)


While I'm here, random thoughts:
- Snooping is indeed terrible, probably the weakest feat in the game as it is almost entirely useless (a 3 PER build can find every secrets by using the right set of gear/drugs)
- Specialization in Spear Guardian is sweet, 100% block chance is no joke.
- Impale is great, I'm curious about your reasoning here. Especially considering you kept Recklessness, which is inferior in nearly all situations.
- I agree that Expose Weakness is not super important for a spear build, but you should still pick it at some point. And I don't see how Hypertoxicity could even compare in terms of usefulness.
- 6 INT was actually better I think, it would free a fair amount of skill points, and give you access to Weaponsmith and Premeditation, two good feats to pick later on (I mean, Premeditation is god tier, but in this build it will just be a nice QoL).
- With 30 points in dodge you could pick Escape Artist, which is always nice on a melee build.
- Quick Tinkering is... well it's Quick Tinkering. Can't go wrong with that one.

Hinz

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Re: A Below Average Explanation on how to Improve Your Own Creations
« Reply #4 on: June 14, 2020, 09:17:46 am »
Hi guys, thanks for reading and replying!

All this time I had thought Critical Power only benefited off your weapon crit dmg above 100%. This for sure changes my outlook on the perk and fortunately enough I chose it well the first time around. 1500 spear throw crits blew my mind when I first saw them, I had never seen numbers that big. I had considered spec in Spear Guardian but since I was on Normal and progressing fairly smoothly, I decided to do more damage.

Impale.. while I used it off cooldown during my run and even put spec points in it (feat order blunder on my part), it felt too much like Aimed shot, but melee. I hadn't used aimed shot in Kiruha's build either and felt Recklessness would be better. Maybe Recklessness is more of a later level feat (there's still so much I don't know), but I liked the crit chance which combined with Hardcore chips would bring me up to 30% crit, while still having 404% crit dmg.

When I mention Hypertoxicity it's true, this could do a lot better in a different style build. During the run I had thought about 100% bonus poison damage, 50% from specialization, and another 50% from Cave Ear poison caltrops. Really a theorycrafting moment there. Many levels I hovered over Expose Armor and after hearing your opinion on it I will probably use it in the future. In the improved stats regarding 6 AGI and 5 INT, my reasoning is because you need 6 AGI for sweep, and 5 INT for cheap shots, both the minimum requirements. I suppose here is when I also thought Recklessness was more worth it than Weaponsmith.

Escape Artist sounds like the answer to all my throwing net and acid entanglement problems, would commit 30 dodge for that in a heartbeat. As I was already using different types of caltrops, I could not go with bear traps as It might prevent passing through the caltrops, and the combined weight of both would be way too much. Quick Tinkering is nice :)

l0cus77

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Re: A Below Average Explanation on how to Improve Your Own Creations
« Reply #5 on: June 14, 2020, 02:05:22 pm »
Hi there! After a lot of testing I started a spear Dex build in dominating short ago, having a lot of fun so far. I had a similar approach to the build, and share some of your thought process. One thing I did different from start is going 9 con for Survival Instincts (and added all crit feats). This plus Infusioned RH armour and other crit chance sources (consumables) gives you an absurd crit chance, allowing to reliable crit most attacks both in melee and most importantly, with spear throw.

To get that 9 con you lose some Dex, but as you analyzed before, you are getting Dex for the crit chance and more accurate spear throws. You get no ap discount for spear, so maxing it is not mandatory like with daggers for exemple, and you gain 30 percent crit chance from lvl 1. Only downside is some accuracy lost, but should be negligible, or at least less strong that getting a crit half times early game, almost always latter.

This allows you to forget impale with less problem (it is a really good skill but if you are getting close to 100 percent crit anyway, no sense getting it) but makes your early game a little bit more complicated.

Of course, this way of building requires you to not get hit at all, so it goes with high stealth, Quick tinkering, etc. But on dominating oddity I play like that anyway, so there is no problem with that.

You seem to put a lot of effort in the build and the post so I just wanted to share that thought. I will let you know how the run goes if you interested ;D

Have fun !


Hinz

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Re: A Below Average Explanation on how to Improve Your Own Creations
« Reply #6 on: June 14, 2020, 03:26:13 pm »
Stealth spear with traps sounds like a lot of fun, consider me interested! I've also been thinking about which feats become more useful/mandatory on the harder difficulties, across all build styles.. I'm currently fiddling with a Laser pistol build on normal and have managed to craft one by level 5, think I will get practical physicist and high technicalities. Not sure if Gunslinger is worth it as I get three shots right now, and these sentries stand no chance. Discussion is very welcome here.

l0cus77

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Re: A Below Average Explanation on how to Improve Your Own Creations
« Reply #7 on: June 14, 2020, 05:30:37 pm »
Hey Hind!

Gunslinger only works with fire arms, so it is a no no for laser pistol build.

Well on higher difficulties a lot of stuff changes, the game plays different, but most builds can be adjusted for that, what requires some adaptation is playing with dominating mindset (really forces you to play with all toys in order to succeed, specially the weaker builds).

I don't want to spoil the fun of discovery for you but the most fun laser build I found is in this forum under stormtrooper build. Really cool versatility build.

Those 2 perks are mandatory for laser pistol. High Dex is also nice to get many shots in 1 round, and crit multipliers are insane for laser pistols, from there you can get the build that most suits you.