First time, Shotgun - Psi non stealh

[Usiorix]

Hello everyone,
im just starting with Underrail (doing outposts mission).

In RPGs (especially with a lot of build possibilities) i always had a problem of choosing the right one.
For example in Morrowind I used to stop playing in half, or earlier and changing to something i saw and liked more.
Thats why now, when im playing rpgs i choose my build very carefully, to be sure i want to play whole game with it. And that is most important thing for me now.

Im explaining it because no matter what you say, i will try to end the game with my build. But i'll be happy to get some hints from you.

Second important thing for me is the challange. I hate easy rpgs, they are boring for me. I need satisfaction.
Thats why im gonna play on hard difficulty.
I was struggling between classic and oddity (as i read that classic is overexped), but finally i chose to play classic because this build is not stealth one, nor "talking", i will propably fight with most of stuff. My idea is to try to beat the game like this, and then build some stealth - hacking - whatever build and play hard / dominating with oddity system. Happy to hear what you think about it.

One more thing - i like to use a lot of possibilities the game is offering.

*Thats an edit, i started over and now im on the mission with ventilation shafts and raiders, lvl 5.
I picked classic system and do not feel overexped. No problems with fights but i feel (a bit) lack of power of shotgun.
Is it possible to use it without investing in crit chance?

Here is my build now:
https://underrail.info/build/?BQYDAwgFCQcjAAAAAAAAFxkAACAUDw8eAAAjIw8AAAhfwrArPd-_

My question is can I drop crit and use shotguns efficiently?
Right now im using Goggles, so mi perception is 6, but can I go with 5 and be fine?

I planned to get both shotgun and psi feasts, also Juggernaut on lvl 8 (with 7 str) as an addition to conditioning and stoicism.
I will use metal armor.

Should i spec into other schools of psi also?

Thanks!

[Niko]

Hello and Welcome 

*oh darn, you must've updated your build just while I was writing this, anyway. I'll keep the following answer here anyway*

You have some nice ideas for a first time builder. Now I am kinda hoping to throw you in the deep end with what I have in mind for you right away.
But first: this RPG is a lot harder than what you are used to, just for the vast amount of different types of encounters and enemy mechanics you will meet when being thorough, and that is why some builds end up stronger against some of them and possibly pathetically weaker against a few. It is really hard for a new player to acknowledge this and it forces restarts, willingly or not. Especially on higher difficulties it is possible to soft lock yourself from advancing in early game because you were caught completely off guard with something and say you already spent all available cash and resources, or even mess up with not having enough back up saves so that would accidentally screw you over.

Now shotguns and psi are both very forgiving in my opinion and there already is a lot to play around with them in early game, combine them with bear traps if needed. It is fun
I recommend this build based on your ideas and observations on any difficulty under dominating. I would still probably encourage playing this on normal. The difficulty spikes combined with more advanced enemies, mechanics and everything in higher numbers might get demoralizing

I have played something similar to this, with a low perception for shotguns start on dominating to try some harder encounters out and it is still viable. Well anyway, the build's strength and base idea is to sit at <30% health for more pellet criticals and more psi criticals to hugely boost your damage output and position yourself for leading shots every time to better hit your marks. The core feats are are picked 1-14, after that the feats are more QOL and you can just pick what you want more, but the idea there is to boost damage and add comfort. There could be some controversy with 8 int start with this and you could go 6 instead, but the idea was to have one more psi slot and that you would meet the requirement for Psycho-neural Flexibility at 16, and generally have higher effective scores in crafting and hacking earlier. Other than that the attributes meet the criteria; Strength enough for a vindicator and riot armor, Dexterity for leading shots (absolutely critical for any shotgun build), Agility for sprint, Constitution for Survival Instincts, Perception stacking for higher Guns skill, and finally Will is tanked to 3 which we make suffice in non-thought control hybrids.

Start out at 5-5-6-9-4-3-8 with more accessible psi and crafting with Psycho-neural Flexibility and one more psi slot, or 5-5-6-9-6-3-6.
I tried not to meet any specific skill caps, but there is the general idea.
Enough Throwing is what you think is enough, there are no throwing specific feats included so take some.
Stealth (even if unwanted for the core build) to lay bear traps before a tough fight or for those special occasions that you really want it to complete a quest for example. You don't need to invest heavily in it, just add some points in and get high effective stealth from balaclava+stealthy leather armor+ninja tabi boots.
I usually like to get rather high hacking skill early, but would not go over 135 effective.
Effective Lockpicking of 45 is enough for omni-tool to open all ventilation shafts, higher than that gives more access and more loot, but I don't find it critical. A flavor choice.
Pickpocketing is for extra pennies, sometimes in form of ammo, but mainly adrenaline shots and oddities. Completely optional.
Traps would be for setting, detecting and disarming them, also totally optional to put points in. You can blast mines with Pyrokinesis if you know they are there, but cannot spot them.
Persuasion is a flavor choice again, but as you had the idea of getting the Shoddy early, my advice is to go with just enough assigned points in it and to have Mercantile synergy boost cover the needed points. More simply, take 18 in persuasion and go 20 mercantile early so you hit (20) in persuasion, that is if you never intend to go higher - you can finish the game with 0 persuasion. For a fast level 2 on classic, you can make your way south from Old Jonas and crush some bugs, and make your way west and bash some hoppers - and then go talk to the quarter master for your shotgun. 20 effective persuasion is required for that. Why I mentioned this is you can also use that 20 Mercantile before you ever go to the Pens level to talk to the Metathermics trainer to get two freebies instead of one.
Higher Mercantile is to open special stocks for some vendors and it is some times used in conversations for discounts and such, never needed to go crazy high, but effective 105 is what I recommend.

Get started with crafting - early game tips for this build:
For your FIRST crafted Tactical Vest, find and buy: Psi beetle carapace, laminated fabric ballistic panel, insulated vest (component) and black cloth - a flavor choice again, but it looks cooler and offsets the stealth penalty by adding some.
For your first Taser: Electroshock generator at lowest quality possible for low energy cost, and Plasma Core at around ~30q.
For your first shotgun: a vindicator shotgun frame, at what quality you can afford to find and have skill for, a forward grip and a short barrel. Prioritize spread and damage, shotguns are lethal even at ~30% to-hit chances if you stack critical chance
Supply of repair kits: 25 or 50 effective in mechanics, electronics and tailoring to craft. Scrap unwanted metal, fabric or electronics for a constant supply.
Stuff is pretty heavy so you can pile them up in any location you prefer. Items won't disappear even if you store them in the middle of a busy street in a city. Bodies however do disappear so if you are undecided if you want to hang on to some stuff, you can loot a body and drop their belongings on them. That way you can preserve them.

Even that it doesn't say it in the build planner, Psycho-temporal Acceleration feat has a prerequisite of knowing either dilation or contraction. It might put you in a tricky situation where your assigned points in temporal manipulation are sub 25 and you are leveling up to 12 and you just reeeally want the feat there and then, but cannot actually learn that.

Anyway there is the feat order I had in mind for you; and this is for the 5-5-6-9-4-3-8 variation. Lower perception early has the disadvantage that you will not immediately spot traps and something hidden, but it does get better as you level up.
https://underrail.info/build/?HgUFBgkKAwjCoDgAAAAAUDweMgBQUA8oUAAAwqBGAABNOWIrwrA9KsKWLsKHS8K9LCYnMcK1wqQo378

[Niko]

My question is can I drop crit and use shotguns efficiently?
Right now im using Goggles, so mi perception is 6, but can I go with 5 and be fine?

I planned to get both shotgun and psi feasts, also Juggernaut on lvl 8 (with 7 str) as an addition to conditioning and stoicism.
I will use metal armor.

Should i spec into other schools of psi also?

Thanks!

I've played both non-crit and crit shotguns but I always found non-crit very unsatisfactory and lacking in power, even if I had more utility and other types of damage in form of grenades in them. The criticals with even a few of the pellets are too noticeable in what they can do to rip everything to pieces, and it will just get better with Critical Power feat. The attribute scores affect your skill points directly and the value is what determines the damage and accuracy with combat skills (and dmg AoE psi)

I find it hard to fit psi, metal armor and shotguns in the same build so I have never tried to make it work. There are Shield Emitters in the game that you can find and craft later in the game that work as a layer of protection too. And worth pointing out that a little higher quality crafted psi tactical vest can also reach 20 Damage Threshold with 60 vs bullets and shells. Which in many ways is stronger than a metal armor vs a gang of riflers for example, but you are always more mobile. Riot Gear can be crafted against something that attacks you frequently in melee.

And about shotguns generally, you kind of want to craft the good ones, the shoddy or a random rebel found early are not even close to an early ~50q short vindicator with forward grip. The pellet damage is calculated from the shotgun's base damage, so I would say that crafting one yourself early will give you the advantage. You can visit junkyard early to check if they sell vindicator parts. There are three vendors you can find them at.

Also, it is a common, kind of a workaround in hybrids, where you use the strength of psi initially and slowly move towards something else. Psi is doing the heavy lifting early before you find parts to craft and generally get all your tools together with shotguns. In the end they balance each other nicely.

Having multiple psi schools innervated adds to the psi cost of the abilities, so it is up to you if you want it. Early on I would stick to Metathermics only and prepare to add Contraction from Temporal Manipulation to the pool at ~10-12.

...but, these are all my opinions and how I approach shotgun psi, where psi is more invested. There are probably a thousand second opinions about this where non-crit shotguns shine bright, so like always take it with a grain of salt

[cypherusuh]

Tbh hybrid on shotgun is kinda sus, especially when you're picking metathermics for your psi school.
You need Sixth Shot and Leading Shot for shotgun, don't pick Perfect Scattering, it's shit. The rest of shotgun feats are for Burst playstyle, with 7 STR and decent PER for accuracy.

For your build right now, I don't think it'll be a fun shotgun experience tbh. You can use it for triggering ThermoDestabilization, but the accuracy and damage spike won't be as good as sniper rifle, especially without leading shot and low PER.
Conditioning and Stoicism is also noob trap, because it applies AFTER armor reduction. And armor reduction at mid-end game is fairly high, and if you played glass cannon, both feat won't be able to help you with 1-shotted scenario.
You can actually salvage it into Sniper/Meta hybrid and it'll actually do fairly decently. Up your PER to 8, 8 int, and rest on will and it should be good enough for hard.
You might struggle, but it's doable.

Oh also, you can search feats by typing (stats #), for example, Will 10, to see what's a good sweet spot for your non-primary attributes. In case of Con, sweet spot are 9 for Survival Instinct as crit build. 9 con 30% HP is somewhat similar to 3 con 90% HP. It's very doable to stay at 30% HP, but it's annoying because you can't use bandages and you stuck with 9 turn / 50 seconds cooldown per hypo if you dropped too low.

[Usiorix]

Thank you both for big answers and the time you've spent.

I read this just after you wrote, but didnt answer cause i wanted to play and check for myself.

So, both of you are right. Sadly Im just before depot A (already got in there and back for eq). Im not stuck, playing quite smoothly and with help of utilities i feel like i could get through it (although my traps are 0, throwing 0 its quite fun;p), but as said earlier i already felt lack of power of shotgun and now its doubled feeling. Power is fine, i suppose, after crafting better one (with 3 bullets burst), but accuracy - terrible - even face to face with target (and that is not happening as often as i imagined). Im not able to take leading shot cause i need 2 more dex (and im lvl 8 with 7 str).

I wanted to take juggernaut but then i realised that it needs metal armor to work, and metal armor needs 8 STR. So either i put another 1 point into STR on 12 lvl (and still have 3 dex, so no leading shot for me) or i dump the idea (but why do i have 7 str then? xd).

I did know that stoicism and conditioning applies after armor reduction, I just thought decernt CON + juggernout + heavy armor will make me pretty tanky with those 2 feasts. Also with my starting stats there werent a lot to take...

So to make shotgun work i need to put into some shotgun STATS (feasts are easy manage) and dump will for that, cause with my will im not the perfect PSIonic and i can't hit burrowers with shotgun.

So i restarted, took your advices, and still did it my way ^^
I didnt want to make exactly the same build, and i didnt like the idea of running around <30% HP to make crit work (although i suppose its the only way to make shotgun + metathermics build work so thank you for this).
What I realised was that build I wanted to do would work with Melee wep - STR + CON + WILL.

Now im playing
https://underrail.info/build/?BAUFBgoHAwUeGQAAAAAZGRkAFB4AAAoUHgAAAAAAACY5Y8Kw378
Throwing + traps only up to some convenient lvl around 50 i think, (traps propably less) changed the psi school to thought control for CC, but still not going to invest a lot - just to have some cc idk yet how much exactly.
Temporal manipulation to get haste and maybe perk for it.
Hope now its better and will work,
thanks again




 

[cypherusuh]

You don't have to use metal armor for Juggernaut BTW, as long as you have 50+ unmodified body armor penalty. Tac vest, riot gear, hell even Leather Armor is possible to go above 50%. Do remember that you HAVE to be ABOVE 50%. Exactly 50% won't give you the bonus. Nimble and Body Training thingy applied after the penalty, so it's still compatible with Juggernaut. Armor slopping doesn't, tho.

Tbh you should plan your build up to level 30 so you could see if there's any sus bump. The important factor is up to level 10, because that's the usual level you got pre-Depot A