Uhm, the economical and crafting sistems stil need some more loving..

[Eliasfrost]

But you do get rewarded for straying from the main path, you get equipment, material, quests, experience, interesting story-lines etc. It's not all about the loot you know.

[Elhazzared]

Equipment... Don't need, can buy it. In fact I'll just end up leaving it behind because of carry weights and vendor limits anyway.

Materials... Again, can just buy them and the more you stock the harder it is to have inventory space for more stuff.

Quests... Whose rewards are? Nothing because you cannot get any profit from the loot as the merchants are already spent from the main storyline.

Experience... Yes, I'll give you a point here if you do are feeling the difficulty and need a level or two to get back on track but I doubt it is really needed.

Interesting storylines... Again you do have a point here, but if I get nothing from it, even if I did it only once to know them, that's all there would be to it, no replay value with them as you already did it once and from there, given that there is no reward for doing it you won't need to do it again ever. Much like the GMS vault. You go there once, get nothing worth your trouble, speditures and time and you don't touch it again. Waste of time for both players and developers.

It is not all about the loot, but it's mostly about the loot. It's an RPG and as such it revolves around loot a lot. People play games because they enjoy playing games. Everytime they beat something tough or get rewarded for their work they get a dopamine release which gives them the pleasure. In these games the loot is what gives us the enjoyment, it's our reward, our dopamine release. Basicly the game is denying you that.

[Eliasfrost]

Equipment... Don't need, can buy it. In fact I'll just end up leaving it behind because of carry weights and vendor limits anyway.

Materials... Again, can just buy them and the more you stock the harder it is to have inventory space for more stuff.

This makes little sense to me, if you go out and explore and adventure, you will get better equipment. in fact, most equipment you found on your adventures are better than the stuff you can buy. The same goes for material.

Quests... Whose rewards are? Nothing because you cannot get any profit from the loot as the merchants are already spent from the main storyline.

The rewards are more interesting world information, unique items, money, experience.

Experience... Yes, I'll give you a point here if you do are feeling the difficulty and need a level or two to get back on track but I doubt it is really needed.

But you haven't gotten past the drill part, levels and skill increase is very much needed throughout the game.

Interesting storylines... Again you do have a point here, but if I get nothing from it, even if I did it only once to know them, that's all there would be to it, no replay value with them as you already did it once and from there, given that there is no reward for doing it you won't need to do it again ever. Much like the GMS vault. You go there once, get nothing worth your trouble, speditures and time and you don't touch it again. Waste of time for both players and developers.

That's depending on how you go about it, some of the stuff you do branch and can only be experience one way per playthrough.

It is not all about the loot, but it's mostly about the loot. It's an RPG and as such it revolves around loot a lot. People play games because they enjoy playing games. Everytime they beat something tough or get rewarded for their work they get a dopamine release which gives them the pleasure. In these games the loot is what gives us the enjoyment, it's our reward, our dopamine release. Basicly the game is denying you that.

That is actually not true. There are sub-genres of RPG that centre its gameplay around loot, most notably action RPGs. Traditional CRPGs* are less common to revolve around the stuff you get, it's mostly about world building, unraveling storylines and most importantly player choice in relation to the story and the world at large. Some RPG games have very little emphasis on loot such as The Witcher, Mass Effect, Planescape Torment amongst others. There are many different ways to make RPGs but that's a whole other discussion not really related to the topic at hand. Just wanted to clear things up a bit.

*With Traditional CRPGs I mean RPGs like Baldurs Gate, Fallout, Arcanum, Planescape Torment etc.

[Elhazzared]

While my experience is only up to junkyard, it is how it goes. Nothing I'll find in the junkyard or around it, even in Depot A is better than what is for sale in the junkyard. At best it will be of equal value but usually lower... Materials may actually differ but for equipment it is true. Still what use is there to find much higher materials which you just don't have the skill to use? By the time you have more than likely the vendors will have material at that quallity... Then again I may be talking out of my ass relative to what the vendors may have but my experience with material, usually when you find high waullity you just don't have the skills anyway, nor will have for many, many levels.

Interesting wourld informantion... Only need to do it once. Unique items. Well I'm sure the number of those are extremely limited and you'll only ever do those that will affect your class. One or two are hardly a measure of the vastness of the amount of quests and explorarion... Money, which is what compared to the loot left behind? Not to mention that we have more than enough money (again don't forget that my proposal isn't just to go back to the old system but to lower the value of items to also address this issue)... Experience. As far as I can tell and again I do know my experience is somewhat limited in comparison to the current content, you don't need to go out of the way to get XP. Even if you do you'll probably only do one or another which you know gives you a lot for as little trouble (time wasted) as possible.

I belive you that level and skill increasses are necessary, it was through the whole game till there, it shouldn't change as it goes forward. What I am saying is that you probably don't need to get off the beaten path to get enough skills and levels to go on.

Some of the stuff you do may branch, but odds are you do it the way it feels right to you and always do it that way. If you really get curious you can savescum to see different results and/or use wikia just to get to know. One playthrough is more than enough given that the players will not feel rewarded for doing it.

Lore is very important the first time around and only the first time around. Just like you play fallout 2 for the first time and get to explore all that cool story, after you beat it once, replayabillity does not comes from story but gameplay mechanics as you try different types of characters. How much replayabillity does Underrail begs? some possibly, but definitly without going into sidequests or exploring because it's just a huge waste of time. As for things like mass effect. This might be just me but I do not consider those things an RPG. There just isn't enough freedom and enough choice for it to ever quallify as an RPG. Anything that is not on a close level of things like fallout or arcanum do not quallify as true RPGs. At least not in my book... As such, all RPGs are loot driven.

[Eliasfrost]

I'm sorry El, you just don't know what you're talking about. Go play through the game then come back and talk. It's getting very annoying that you are making things up without the actual experience to back it up.

[Elhazzared]

I cannot play the game. It's unbearable to play a game with such a horrible economic system and I've tried, several times and every time I just couldn't deal with the inabillity to carry items and sell items. The game just frustates me. Pleasure given 0.

[Eliasfrost]

Well then too bad but don't pretend like you know how things work because you don't. No matter how many assumptions you make about how the game works throughout it's only just that: assumptions.

[Elhazzared]

I base what I say with my experience of the game. As far as I've been made known, these things have not been changed in anyway way through the development. I haven't seen any loot rebalancing in notes for mid game. Just the early game.

[Eliasfrost]

Just like preference in general, either you like it or you don't. I actually think it's a matter of readjusting expectations and a wee bit of change in habit and outlook. If you try to embrace how the system works I think you'll have much more fun with it. Forcing your standards unto something even though the don't match up never work out. Especially when it comes to niche stuff like Underrail that have a different perspective and actively encourage the player to view things the same way. How I understand it is that you don't like to leave loot behind, but that's exactly what you have to do to effectively play Underrail, if you get rid of that gnawling feeling to pick everything up and to sell every little piece of loot you can grab, you will most likely enjoy the game much more. But if you can't, then you're out of luck.

EDIT: Uncommon characters still cut posts off.

[Elhazzared]

I can't. The game brings me no enjoyment if I am leaving good stuff behind, stuff that actually has a lot of value. It's not just how I think the game should be. It gets completly unplayable for me. Even thinking. I'll leave loot behind, there is gonna be more than enough money. The moment that I hit GMS and couldn't even loot 2 levels of it without getting overweight I just ragequited the game... The level of frustation is just through the roof, it saps all possible enjoyment that could be derived from the game when before I felt the game was amazing and that Styg was amasing for dealing away with carry weights and such non-sense. Pure enjoyment with no immersion break.

Right now I'm doomed to either get a game I'll never play again. Or wait for styg to actually include an option that allows the game to be enjoyed when we reach the final version cause if he does that, I'm sure he won't do it before then cause I've been waiting forever for it so I  got no illusions. Or in a last case scenario, wait for someone to mod the game into making it an actually good game.

[Termy]

I'm sorry Elhazzared, but I'm of almost the opposite opinion to you. I'm a significant way through my second "full" playthrough (the first was an earlier build), and while I feel the crafting definitely needs some tweaking, I absolutely have to disagree with your views on the economy and carrying capacity.

Part of the joy for me is being forced to make difficult decisions about loot - what do I keep and what do I leave? What is more likely to sell? To me, this is the ESSENCE of RPGs - role-playing. Not looting, but instead trying to make decisions for my character. Loot is good, but there are plenty of other reasons for exploring a game world.

Completely removing the vendor restrictions or carrying capacity would destroy this aspect of the game. Anyway, all this excess stuff requires storage - it provides an incentive for me to use my Player Home. (Incidentally, more Player Homes, possibly upgradable or with unique attributes, would provide an excellent gold sink...)

That's not to say I don't feel the system needs tweaking. I just also think removing the carrying and vendor restrictions is a case of "throwing the baby out blah blah".

[Elhazzared]

No it wouldn't. You see, when there was no vendor restrictions nor carry weights the only complaint was too much money floating. Not a single soul complained about vendors buying everything nor you being able to carry everything.

Now you got the complaints of too much money and of those restrictions. Clearly the old system was better than the new one and in no way destroyed the game, it merely made everyone happy.

Also with this new system there will never be a problem to how much money float. You'll either always have too much or not enough.

You wanna force decisions? Simple, remove all the silly restrictions and put less money on the game, then people are forced to decide what they buy and even what they sell in case some weapon breaks down and you just can't repair it.

[Eliasfrost]

I've only seen two people complaining about the new system, hardly enough reason to make a change.

[Elhazzared]

I've seen more than that, but the people who usually complained about it did so when the changes hit... All in all it weren't still many, but considering that there isn't many people actually posting in the foruns I'd say it still is a decent number of people... Still, you got no complaints vs some complaints. It denotes which system was better.

[Eliasfrost]

That's no good way of developing anything. Every change you make will have someone who dislike it in one way or the other. If you don't like it then air your opinion, but never expect things to change let alone bringing it up time and time again at any given chance to complain about it. It doesn't help anyone. Styg have listened but he haven't changed things because he's the developer, it's his game. He didn't change things the first time you complained and he won't change things after the 10th time either.

If every change that turns off a few vocal people will be addressed like they want it then the game will never leave the gates ever. I'm a developer and I know what it's like to make decisions that some people don't like but I do it anyway because it benefits the game overall, whether you personally agree with that or not. It's about artistic cohesiveness and not personal preference. Styg knows what is his vision is and it's ultimately his decision what compromises needs to go through to reach it.

Again I'm not against complaining and giving feedback, what I'm against is obnoxious nagging.