Let's talk about new PSI System!

[Elhazzared]

When the armor you're offered is. Regular leather armor which is inferior to carrier vest even against against pretty much everything. The carrier vests or the metal which is not going to work for me due to the limited strenght. Yeah, I'll take the carrier vest since it's the best option!

I actually meant aggro range by vision range. pretty much almost everywhere in depot A if I can see the enemy i'm in enemy aggro range. There are a few exceptions here and there but where there were exceptions not even moving and attacking was good enough.

So you will explain me how in the hell you can throw all of those spells in a single round because with the exception of neural overload which is dirty cheap, I tend to be able to do 2 spells, 3 at most if I'm using cheaper spells! Also I don't consider fear inducing spells much of a CC. Sure you can make enemies flee but making enemy flee in almost all situation only made things worse. First I can't even get to the enemy to kill it as it spends the whole movement allowance runing and second, it tends to aggro more packs as the enemy flees near them and pretty soon I'm being run down by douzens of enemies at the same time. Pretty much only used that as a last resort when I knew there was no way the fleeing enemy would aggro anyone else.

Electrokinesis has cooldown. It has always had, 3 turns I belive. That has always been the huge problem of that spell. You cannot even kill a robot with it in a single turn though you deal a good amount of damage and stun it. T-punch can only be cast once per round too. CC is limited and before you say that it was the old psikers. I did played a bit of the previous patch, enough to get to the GMS and nearly complete it (just didn't killed the boss at the end) and yes, this remained true at all times. One T-punch only and one E-kinesis every 3 rounds!

Yes, crossbows aren't excelent, but they are one extra CC and one extra antibot weapon. Sure you can run and drop a grenade at point black. In some situations!

And again, no, the sniper + assault rifle + grenades was much more imba. In fact with the old crafting specs for grenades you could pretty much run everything through without breaking a sweat or even taking damage. lone targets or small groups, snipe them out easily. One lone guy gets close, open full auto on him. Big groups or incredibly tough things? Throw a MK5 and everything will die! Just take stealth to engage optimally and it was the strongest build ever. All combats were over in 2 to 3 rounds at best with no damage taken or minimal damage taken.

I won't comment on your disreguards of something I said as BS. If you don't want to take it seriously then don't.

[Elhazzared]

Premeditation yeah, it's something you get a bit later on I did remember using it though only works on the first round of combat... As for tranquillity, never cared for it because it requires me to be at full health and something that happens often is taking a shot or some sort of damage from something so I always felt it was a wasted skill... Psycosis can be good yes, but it might also bite you in the ass with the pornographic psi cost of some abillities now and spamabillity is a necessity after all.

You are right, it doesn't, it does costs too much AP to cast. I was confusing with the T-punch which has the 3 turn cooldown. Either way it's one CC that is only showing up every 3 rounds.

I don't belive I have that many other options really. Like I said, fear inducing stun is not really viable for me in most situations. If I already need more than 2 people stunned in a round I certainly do not need a third one running around and aggroing several mobs.

It doesn't matter that my experience is limited by what I saw 2 years back. That part of the game is still there isn't it? While my Psy character had difficulties with even more than just using psi abillities. My sniper (I'll just call it sniper for short) would deal with everything without so much as giving a shit.

So I have not played to level 20 and above (with the now extended max level). i still managed to get a lot of the good combos going already. My psyker was level 16 which pretty much meant it had all psi feats that I ever needed. My sniper was either 14 or 15 and it pretty much also had all the feats that I wanted to get on it. So there are a few more now yes, especially with this last patch which added a ton of goodies. It doesn't means that what was there before isn't anymore and it doesn't means that what is there is any easier. In fact if I judge by the slightly different start it should probably be either as hard or harder (judging by the early azuridae quest)... That is to say if I made a character with the same specs (ok some minimal differences to reflect patch changes) I'd get to the depot A and have EXACTLY the same problems as I had before. I'd still have the same spells, deal about the same damages, have about the same amount of CC and the enemy would be at least as tough and as in larger numbers as before.

[Elhazzared]

The thing is that the build you posted was in all aspects inferior to mine. It doesn't surprise me because as you did say, you actively tried to gimp the stats as much as possible. I still had most things you had. Granted i don't use tranquillity because I feel it wouldn't last very long. I still rarely had enough CC except if I'm fighting humans and using bilocation + force wall to block myself outof combat while the illusions kill or nearly kill everything. My Psyker died many times and when it didn't died it took lots of damage. By comparison, my sniper/grenadier build would barely get touched.

Where I want to get with this is simple. While a step in the right direction with psi regenerating overtime the psi costs with the max psi you are ever allowed to are probably very problematics at higher levels considering that psikers are the most squishy builds. On the other hands, guns are getting even stronger. To me it feels like giving more power to whom has most and taking from who has less. That's the whole point.

[Elhazzared]

Again, the build isn't bad. As far as combat goes I should have a much superior combat. I had all you had plus stealth and crossbows and it still wasn't easy at all!

Yes psykers were good in some situations but they compared poorly to other possible choices. This update makes those other options stronger and nerfs the psykers.

And no, I don't play the game right now (I did played a bit of last patch) because of the reason we already know which make the game unfun to play for me.

[Greep]

*yawn* so anyways.

I am curious actually, have others dropped a psi discipline because of the patch?  I got bored playing psiker so I tried the assault build instead, and I don't really have time to finish my earlier psiker.  My psi-hybrids haven't been affected at all.

[Mindless]

You're kiddin me, good sir. Robots? The one grenades I picked up except flashbang was EMP.

NO, I'm not kidding here! Grenades?! +Throwing skill?! should I spend more points on any useless things!? Mb melee and guns? We have already spent 3 pack of skill points for psi-disciplines.

You even don't need to buy grenades - you can find so many of them as you needed (and I think it's bad by design, player should feel shortage in equipment and weapon he can find, so he would be forced to buy and spent his bloody sharons).

Old MK4-5(mb some MK4 from the endgame faction shops) grenades are not being sold and no new 0.1.14 grenades.

Hard start? What, first hour? After that he is like steamroller.

Yes it is called the hard start. And not only first hour, You in deep need of a good CONSTANT source of psi-busters. Maybe for mid-game this is not a problem but for early-game without investing in pickpocket and mercantile(obvious) it will be hard times.
And yes, with simple "Pistoletto+Grenades" build you will have more free skill points, easiest start and no economical problem, and late game for me near the same.   

I still think psi-disciplines should be more specialized, less universal.

More specialized?! It's a completly analog of "Magic RPG system" and the point of magic is to have opportunities to do "magic".
You can go into one discipline, craft psionic headband with only 1 discipline mod and get more bonuses from it.

[Fenix]

Looks like some kind of braine fever.

NO, I'm not kidding here! Grenades?! +Throwing skill?! should I spend more points on any useless things!?

You don't need Throwing for this, just as I doesn't need it. Catch bot while wall behind him, be close.

Yes it is called the hard start. And not only first hour, You in deep need of a good CONSTANT source of psi-busters. Maybe for mid-game this is not a problem but for early-game without investing in pickpocket and mercantile(obvious) it will be hard times.

I never have "hard times", all psi-busters you'll need you can find or buy with start money.
Hard start - it's a Feline Wizard in DCSS, that's HARD START.

And yes, with simple "Pistoletto+Grenades" build you will have more free skill points, easiest start and no economical problem, and late game for me near the same.

Game consist not only from "start", it is also "middle" and "finish". Pistol+Granade sucks compared to Psi.

[captainmeow]

Game consist not only from "start", it is also "middle" and "finish". Pistol+Granade sucks compared to Psi.

I'll admit that psi has superior CC, but I've been getting crits in excess of 800 damage with my pistol build in this update.

[Fenix]

So what? I aggroed all Junkyard and survived, that's psiker's strenght.

[Mindless]

Looks like some kind of braine fever.

How sweet! And where is my

good sir.

=(

You don't need Throwing for this, just as I doesn't need it. Catch bot while wall behind him, be close.

Sorry, but i must decline your generous offer. (With ~15% hit chance with granade you either miss, or drop it into your feet OR with some luck and save-load you can eventually hit the target.)

I never have "hard times", all psi-busters you'll need you can find or buy with start money.

And how many psi-busters will you buy with your "start money" ?

Hard start - it's a Feline Wizard in DCSS, that's HARD START.

We talk about THIS game and it char builds. What build will have more hard times then pure psi-caster?

Game consist not only from "start", it is also "middle" and "finish". Pistol+Granade sucks compared to Psi.

I mentioned about "start" because obviosly it is the harder part of the game(and of the Psi-casters life) oO
Pistol+Grenades can be superior to the psi-caster build in many situations.

I'll admit that psi has superior CC, but I've been getting crits in excess of 800 damage with my pistol build in this update.

And this is more than you can hit by any psi-force. And 800 - is not the highest one with the new crit power feat...

So what? I aggroed all Junkyard and survived, that's psiker's strenght.

On what level?! On 6th level? oO

[Loriac]

A couple of things - EMP grenades can be dropped at your feet without harm as long as you're not wearing a powered-up shield.

On the broader point though about the ramifications of the changes to psi, specifically regen vs. having to use psi boosters:

I can understand why this was done, but it has thrown the concept of economising out of the window for psi builds.  I played the earlier alpha versions quite a bit, and ran quite a few psi builds back then.  The psi booster requirements were actually pretty much equivalent to ammo requirements for guns users and/or the cost of grenades for throwers.  Consider that each 7.62mm bullet costs something like 28cr (iirc) and these costs quickly add up.  In the past, throwing out a cryokinesis bolt was roughly in the same ballpark costwise as shooting .44 ammo iirc.  This made sense from a balance perspective, because you got similar levels of damage per money unit.

I just tried out a fresh psi build and the difference cost wise is night and day - you can throw around whatever stuff you like, rarely have to use psi boosters, and can easily sell all the ammo you collect because its no use to you.

Perhaps in the long term though this makes no real difference - you end up swimming in cash after a point anyway.  However, whereas in the early game a guns user has to balance the ammo he uses with cost in mind, the psi user is now completely free of this type of thinking.  I think maybe its a step too far in the other direction really.

[Mindless]

A couple of things - EMP grenades can be dropped at your feet without harm as long as you're not wearing a powered-up shield.

YEAH, i can agree with this, but come close to robots not always can be the best idea. I talk about some hard-one(like Dreadnoughts or Plasma-turrels, or even pack of plasma walkers that can one hit you!)because one or two poor robots can be killed by T-Punch + Electrokinesis.

On the broader point though about the ramifications of the changes to psi, specifically regen vs. having to use psi boosters:

I can understand why this was done, but it has thrown the concept of economising out of the window for psi builds.  I played the earlier alpha versions quite a bit, and ran quite a few psi builds back then.  The psi booster requirements were actually pretty much equivalent to ammo requirements for guns users and/or the cost of grenades for throwers.  Consider that each 7.62mm bullet costs something like 28cr (iirc) and these costs quickly add up.  In the past, throwing out a cryokinesis bolt was roughly in the same ballpark costwise as shooting .44 ammo iirc.  This made sense from a balance perspective, because you got similar levels of damage per money unit.

Mmmmm I cannot agree with all the points - damage from .44 bullet is higher than from cryokinesis. But overall it's true.

I just tried out a fresh psi build and the difference cost wise is night and day - you can throw around whatever stuff you like, rarely have to use psi boosters, and can easily sell all the ammo you collect because its no use to you.

Yes that's it! I used about ~15 busters for all my game in the new run.

Perhaps in the long term though this makes no real difference - you end up swimming in cash after a point anyway.  However, whereas in the early game a guns user has to balance the ammo he uses with cost in mind, the psi user is now completely free of this type of thinking.  I think maybe its a step too far in the other direction really.

Well, Styg said that the new psi-system will be balanced and i think that the current regen of psi will be nerfed a bit.

[Loriac]

Its a horribly inelegant idea, but if psi costs are to be meaningful, then one approach would be to have a 'psi reservoir' that works like the old non-regenerating system.  Your current psi is refilled from that reservoir, at whatever rate is considered balanced (20 per round may be fine under this system).  However, when your reservoir runs out, you no longer get the top up each round.  Under this set up, psi boosters would work by first refilling your active psi (up to the max of 100 or 115 with appropriate headband) and then whatever was leftover would go to refill the reservoir.

This way, you'd limit the amount of psi that could be thrown around round by round, but keep psi as a costly resource that has to be filled up by using credits.

The psi reservoir could be set to something like 50 x Willpower say, and if you wanted to reward high Will you could perhaps make psi boosters provide Psi equal to 20 x Willpower rather than the flat 100 (or whatever it is, I forget offhand) as it currently stands.

[Greep]

Well it sounds a bit complicated, and tbh, should the early game really be difficult credit wise?  It's bad enough that new players tend to get stuck, as there is no replenishable source of credits.  Maybe in a roguelike that's fine, but this is a story driven game.  Casual resetting shouldn't be the norm.
Besides, veterans of the game never had problems with psi boosters.  Just use a gun with 0 guns skill for rathounds (well, after rathounds became less hardcore anyways ).  Got past the rathounds? Do kolmeir run at level 4 for infinite petty cash.

However, I think perhaps a nice simpler solution would be to have psi max and regen based on will and only will (not level): the lower maximum in the beginning may lead to needing psi boosters frequently in tough battles for a quick boost. 

Example:  psi max = 35 + Will*5; regen = Will*1.5

3 Will: 50 Psi, 4 regen
10 Will: 85 Psi, 15 regen
15 Will: 110 Psi, 22 regen

This also makes will no longer a complete dump stat for hybrids, and it also balances out the now harder end game that psionics have (disregarding enrage anyways heh...)

Alternatively (liking this), also base it on will and level like in the old days, but to a massively lower degree than earlier.  Regen would be will only I think, as it would make will important for longer fights while keeping the CC burst difficult for anyone.

Example: psi max = 40 + Will*5 + Level/2; regen = (Will - 2)*2

3 Will:
-Level 1: max = 55; regen = 2
-Level 10: max = 60; regen = 2
-Level 25: max = 67; regen = 2

10 Will:
-Level 1: max = 90; regen = 16
-Level 10: max = 95; regen = 16
-Level 25: max = 102; regen = 16

15 Will:
-Level 10 (theoretical): max = 120; regen = 26
-Level 25: max = 137; regen = 26

[Loriac]

I think we're talking cross purposes here: I think that free psi regen puts psi characters outside of the game economy for all intents and purposes at low levels, whereas other characters have to spend money on bullets and/or item degradation.  This acts as a balancing factor, e.g. switching to .44 or 9mm ammo too early is tricky both in terms of availability and in terms of cost.  There is no such issue for psi characters under the changed system, and worse, at low levels something like cryokinesis outdamages any realistic gun option available to low level characters, and it does this for essentially no resource cost (plus it can't miss and has a huge range for the icing on the cake).

Tweaking psi regen rates is aimed at balancing how psi is used in combat, but it doesn't really address the economic issue at all.  Furthermore, making psi characters essentially unplayable unless you go with a starting will of 10 is bad design; you don't need to start a gun or xbow character with 10 Per, nor a melee with 10 in str or dex (if anything, this may well be suboptimal with the changes made to the feats) and I don't see why psi users should labour under that burden.

In some ways, its an attempt to inflict a classes on a skills-based system.  Requiring such heavy investment into a single attribute such that it locks out hybrid approaches is just creating a pseudo- class based system in my view.