Let's talk about new PSI System!

[Mindless]

You're kiddin me, good sir. Robots? The one grenades I picked up except flashbang was EMP.

NO, I'm not kidding here! Grenades?! +Throwing skill?! should I spend more points on any useless things!? Mb melee and guns? We have already spent 3 pack of skill points for psi-disciplines.

You even don't need to buy grenades - you can find so many of them as you needed (and I think it's bad by design, player should feel shortage in equipment and weapon he can find, so he would be forced to buy and spent his bloody sharons).

Old MK4-5(mb some MK4 from the endgame faction shops) grenades are not being sold and no new 0.1.14 grenades.

Hard start? What, first hour? After that he is like steamroller.

Yes it is called the hard start. And not only first hour, You in deep need of a good CONSTANT source of psi-busters. Maybe for mid-game this is not a problem but for early-game without investing in pickpocket and mercantile(obvious) it will be hard times.
And yes, with simple "Pistoletto+Grenades" build you will have more free skill points, easiest start and no economical problem, and late game for me near the same.   

I still think psi-disciplines should be more specialized, less universal.

More specialized?! It's a completly analog of "Magic RPG system" and the point of magic is to have opportunities to do "magic".
You can go into one discipline, craft psionic headband with only 1 discipline mod and get more bonuses from it.

[Fenix]

Looks like some kind of braine fever.

NO, I'm not kidding here! Grenades?! +Throwing skill?! should I spend more points on any useless things!?

You don't need Throwing for this, just as I doesn't need it. Catch bot while wall behind him, be close.

Yes it is called the hard start. And not only first hour, You in deep need of a good CONSTANT source of psi-busters. Maybe for mid-game this is not a problem but for early-game without investing in pickpocket and mercantile(obvious) it will be hard times.

I never have "hard times", all psi-busters you'll need you can find or buy with start money.
Hard start - it's a Feline Wizard in DCSS, that's HARD START.

And yes, with simple "Pistoletto+Grenades" build you will have more free skill points, easiest start and no economical problem, and late game for me near the same.

Game consist not only from "start", it is also "middle" and "finish". Pistol+Granade sucks compared to Psi.

[captainmeow]

Game consist not only from "start", it is also "middle" and "finish". Pistol+Granade sucks compared to Psi.

I'll admit that psi has superior CC, but I've been getting crits in excess of 800 damage with my pistol build in this update.

[Fenix]

So what? I aggroed all Junkyard and survived, that's psiker's strenght.

[Mindless]

Looks like some kind of braine fever.

How sweet! And where is my

good sir.

=(

You don't need Throwing for this, just as I doesn't need it. Catch bot while wall behind him, be close.

Sorry, but i must decline your generous offer. (With ~15% hit chance with granade you either miss, or drop it into your feet OR with some luck and save-load you can eventually hit the target.)

I never have "hard times", all psi-busters you'll need you can find or buy with start money.

And how many psi-busters will you buy with your "start money" ?

Hard start - it's a Feline Wizard in DCSS, that's HARD START.

We talk about THIS game and it char builds. What build will have more hard times then pure psi-caster?

Game consist not only from "start", it is also "middle" and "finish". Pistol+Granade sucks compared to Psi.

I mentioned about "start" because obviosly it is the harder part of the game(and of the Psi-casters life) oO
Pistol+Grenades can be superior to the psi-caster build in many situations.

I'll admit that psi has superior CC, but I've been getting crits in excess of 800 damage with my pistol build in this update.

And this is more than you can hit by any psi-force. And 800 - is not the highest one with the new crit power feat...

So what? I aggroed all Junkyard and survived, that's psiker's strenght.

On what level?! On 6th level? oO

[Loriac]

A couple of things - EMP grenades can be dropped at your feet without harm as long as you're not wearing a powered-up shield.

On the broader point though about the ramifications of the changes to psi, specifically regen vs. having to use psi boosters:

I can understand why this was done, but it has thrown the concept of economising out of the window for psi builds.  I played the earlier alpha versions quite a bit, and ran quite a few psi builds back then.  The psi booster requirements were actually pretty much equivalent to ammo requirements for guns users and/or the cost of grenades for throwers.  Consider that each 7.62mm bullet costs something like 28cr (iirc) and these costs quickly add up.  In the past, throwing out a cryokinesis bolt was roughly in the same ballpark costwise as shooting .44 ammo iirc.  This made sense from a balance perspective, because you got similar levels of damage per money unit.

I just tried out a fresh psi build and the difference cost wise is night and day - you can throw around whatever stuff you like, rarely have to use psi boosters, and can easily sell all the ammo you collect because its no use to you.

Perhaps in the long term though this makes no real difference - you end up swimming in cash after a point anyway.  However, whereas in the early game a guns user has to balance the ammo he uses with cost in mind, the psi user is now completely free of this type of thinking.  I think maybe its a step too far in the other direction really.

[Mindless]

A couple of things - EMP grenades can be dropped at your feet without harm as long as you're not wearing a powered-up shield.

YEAH, i can agree with this, but come close to robots not always can be the best idea. I talk about some hard-one(like Dreadnoughts or Plasma-turrels, or even pack of plasma walkers that can one hit you!)because one or two poor robots can be killed by T-Punch + Electrokinesis.

On the broader point though about the ramifications of the changes to psi, specifically regen vs. having to use psi boosters:

I can understand why this was done, but it has thrown the concept of economising out of the window for psi builds.  I played the earlier alpha versions quite a bit, and ran quite a few psi builds back then.  The psi booster requirements were actually pretty much equivalent to ammo requirements for guns users and/or the cost of grenades for throwers.  Consider that each 7.62mm bullet costs something like 28cr (iirc) and these costs quickly add up.  In the past, throwing out a cryokinesis bolt was roughly in the same ballpark costwise as shooting .44 ammo iirc.  This made sense from a balance perspective, because you got similar levels of damage per money unit.

Mmmmm I cannot agree with all the points - damage from .44 bullet is higher than from cryokinesis. But overall it's true.

I just tried out a fresh psi build and the difference cost wise is night and day - you can throw around whatever stuff you like, rarely have to use psi boosters, and can easily sell all the ammo you collect because its no use to you.

Yes that's it! I used about ~15 busters for all my game in the new run.

Perhaps in the long term though this makes no real difference - you end up swimming in cash after a point anyway.  However, whereas in the early game a guns user has to balance the ammo he uses with cost in mind, the psi user is now completely free of this type of thinking.  I think maybe its a step too far in the other direction really.

Well, Styg said that the new psi-system will be balanced and i think that the current regen of psi will be nerfed a bit.

[Loriac]

Its a horribly inelegant idea, but if psi costs are to be meaningful, then one approach would be to have a 'psi reservoir' that works like the old non-regenerating system.  Your current psi is refilled from that reservoir, at whatever rate is considered balanced (20 per round may be fine under this system).  However, when your reservoir runs out, you no longer get the top up each round.  Under this set up, psi boosters would work by first refilling your active psi (up to the max of 100 or 115 with appropriate headband) and then whatever was leftover would go to refill the reservoir.

This way, you'd limit the amount of psi that could be thrown around round by round, but keep psi as a costly resource that has to be filled up by using credits.

The psi reservoir could be set to something like 50 x Willpower say, and if you wanted to reward high Will you could perhaps make psi boosters provide Psi equal to 20 x Willpower rather than the flat 100 (or whatever it is, I forget offhand) as it currently stands.

[Greep]

Well it sounds a bit complicated, and tbh, should the early game really be difficult credit wise?  It's bad enough that new players tend to get stuck, as there is no replenishable source of credits.  Maybe in a roguelike that's fine, but this is a story driven game.  Casual resetting shouldn't be the norm.
Besides, veterans of the game never had problems with psi boosters.  Just use a gun with 0 guns skill for rathounds (well, after rathounds became less hardcore anyways ).  Got past the rathounds? Do kolmeir run at level 4 for infinite petty cash.

However, I think perhaps a nice simpler solution would be to have psi max and regen based on will and only will (not level): the lower maximum in the beginning may lead to needing psi boosters frequently in tough battles for a quick boost. 

Example:  psi max = 35 + Will*5; regen = Will*1.5

3 Will: 50 Psi, 4 regen
10 Will: 85 Psi, 15 regen
15 Will: 110 Psi, 22 regen

This also makes will no longer a complete dump stat for hybrids, and it also balances out the now harder end game that psionics have (disregarding enrage anyways heh...)

Alternatively (liking this), also base it on will and level like in the old days, but to a massively lower degree than earlier.  Regen would be will only I think, as it would make will important for longer fights while keeping the CC burst difficult for anyone.

Example: psi max = 40 + Will*5 + Level/2; regen = (Will - 2)*2

3 Will:
-Level 1: max = 55; regen = 2
-Level 10: max = 60; regen = 2
-Level 25: max = 67; regen = 2

10 Will:
-Level 1: max = 90; regen = 16
-Level 10: max = 95; regen = 16
-Level 25: max = 102; regen = 16

15 Will:
-Level 10 (theoretical): max = 120; regen = 26
-Level 25: max = 137; regen = 26

[Loriac]

I think we're talking cross purposes here: I think that free psi regen puts psi characters outside of the game economy for all intents and purposes at low levels, whereas other characters have to spend money on bullets and/or item degradation.  This acts as a balancing factor, e.g. switching to .44 or 9mm ammo too early is tricky both in terms of availability and in terms of cost.  There is no such issue for psi characters under the changed system, and worse, at low levels something like cryokinesis outdamages any realistic gun option available to low level characters, and it does this for essentially no resource cost (plus it can't miss and has a huge range for the icing on the cake).

Tweaking psi regen rates is aimed at balancing how psi is used in combat, but it doesn't really address the economic issue at all.  Furthermore, making psi characters essentially unplayable unless you go with a starting will of 10 is bad design; you don't need to start a gun or xbow character with 10 Per, nor a melee with 10 in str or dex (if anything, this may well be suboptimal with the changes made to the feats) and I don't see why psi users should labour under that burden.

In some ways, its an attempt to inflict a classes on a skills-based system.  Requiring such heavy investment into a single attribute such that it locks out hybrid approaches is just creating a pseudo- class based system in my view.

[Greep]

Well.. you really don't need a high will with those numbers :O  Most of my non-"full psi" have will 3 and would be not affected so much   Plus I think will should have some effect on mana right?  It feels weird throwing 3 CCs with a Will 3 character.  a regen of 2 would change that or at least make me shoot up in battle.

As for affecting economy, I think it would simply because you'd need boosters in battle.  Trying to take on mutants with a lower will would definitely require boosters.  Very high will would be unaffected, but I don't think that's such a bad thing.  Very high perc generally never had to buy bullets in the beginning, or much ever.  We're talking what, 100 charons throughout junkyard?  Most of my money was spent crafting armor. 

Again, only newbies with very poor builds have big money issues, and why be hard on them?  Especially since you'd have to start over if you run out of money and don't have quests.  I'd honestly argue that maybe standard ammo should be cheaper.  Doesn't affect you or me, but maybe it would affect that guy who just started playing.

[Elhazzared]

So, unless this has changed I don't think 3 will characters are viable even for hybrid. Damage will be very low and CC will often not work. I remember trying it once and the results were that the stun was almost always resisted. So unless this has changed I don't see 3 will characters being viable as a hybrid if by hybrid you meand just get some "free CC".

As for the regeneration. The whole problem of the new psi system does not passes through the regeneration being to high. Maybe it should be half of what it is but the real problem is the cost of some abillities being far too high. As a psiker you need to have the abillity to spam out some spells before you run out of psi and it must not be limited to the cheap ones either.

As for the early economy. Really there is no such thing as an early economy problem anymore. Withthe starting money you buy some lockpicks, a couple bateries and a haxxor, add a grenade and that's all you need to get past the first mission as a non psiker. The starting bullets and the grenade is a guaranteed win. Just clear the first outposts normally (you even get a crossbow with some bolts if you need to swap weapons). The house where the guy is with the 2 rathounds is dealt with a grenade and the high number of rathounds before it is dealt with blowing up the barrel when they cluster near it. Once this mission is done you have a new better gun and money to spend on anything else you might need.

Let's face it. The old economy system was already gave you too much money, however it was better than the current one. Neither it had the problems of not being able to sell everything nor carrying stuff, but it also didn't gave you as much money. The current one will never be able to actually be balanced for reasons I've gone into already somewhere else. Since money is overly abundant and nothing is going to change reguarding this. You might as well throw out the costs as a balancing factor out the window.

As for early on Psi being more damaging than a gun. Erm, maybe? Once you give the watch to the old man you already got a submachinegun. I doubt anything in Psi you have will do as much as a burst... Also any non psiker build will allowyou spam any type of attacks as much as you like. Your guns aren't likelly to run out of ammo anytime soon. You can throw a variety of grenades. You can have utility things like nets, caltrops and whatnot. You can pretty much spam what you need. Even if you get a cooldown here and there, you still have other options that will do something similar. With Psi however, when you need to use a high cost psi abillity you don't really have alternatives.

If I was to balance out Psi abillities I'd say you need a pool probably twice as big if not more and then lower the psi regeneration. What does this means in terms of balancing? You can to a degree use more high cost psi abillities, but in long drawn out fights which tend to happen with psikers (remeber, good CC, but lower damage than other ways of going at it) you'll need to use boosters in order keep up with the spenditure.

[Gman]

Well it sounds a bit complicated, and tbh, should the early game really be difficult credit wise?  It's bad enough that new players tend to get stuck, as there is no replenishable source of credits.

A little biology and you can make psi-boosters out of mindshroom fluid.  Both are easy sells at any pharmacy, one of which is in SGS that usually buys a few of each.  The tunnels at the start of the game with the five outposts house a few, with two behind a agility-check mound of stones.  Another is Adrenal glands, constant source from rathounds, that make pricey adrenalin and then adrenalin shots that are easy to sell.  Even if I didn't make most of the combat drugs for use, they still serve a purpose from the start in selling and making relatively easy credits. 

15 biology I believe is all that is needed to distill Mindsrhooms, with the fluid selling for 100ish at the pharmacy. Easy.

Also, if you make your own repair kits, the return investment of them is usually 2-3 times the kits sell cost added to the repaired object. 

[Fenix]

How sweet! And where is my "good sir". =(

Lost in translation. )

Sorry, but i must decline your generous offer. (With ~15% hit chance with granade you either miss, or drop it into your feet OR with some luck and save-load you can eventually hit the target.)

Do it in narrow passage, where even if you're drop it on feet, AOE will hit the bot.

And how many psi-busters will you buy with your "start money" ?

With all you can find further - enough for all psi-beetles\bots, if you don't sling lightnings at every cave poppers, and use Quinton's crossbow at rathounds.

What build will have more hard times then pure psi-caster?

Hard start isn't actually a hard, if it lasts a HOUR.

Pistol+Grenades can be superior to the psi-caster build in many situations.

What a load of BSness. What - you kill rathound with 800 crit, and what?
CC+nuke+stunlock=PSI.

[Fenix]

then one approach would be to have a 'psi reservoir' that works like the old non-regenerating system.  Your current psi is refilled from that reservoir, at whatever rate is considered balanced (20 per round may be fine under this system).  However, when your reservoir runs out, you no longer get the top up each round.  Under this set up, psi boosters would work by first refilling your active psi (up to the max of 100 or 115 with appropriate headband) and then whatever was leftover would go to refill the reservoir.

it just was my idea.

Example:  psi max = 35 + Will*5; regen = Will*1.5

I like your approach too. I like that not investing in Will chars should spend boosters (money, resources) to get what Will-investing got for free.