Requesting pistol build from Wildan

[hilf]

PS2 . SO... SUMMING UP... Recommend me two pistols I should go with. Should I go for a very fast one on one hand (5mm) and a heavy slower one on the other hand (.44 hammerer)? Or should I go middle ground with a 7.62/9mm + energy one?. Or having two separate weapon loadouts... Hmpf. Pistols seem to be far more complicated than SMGs which, let's face it, are very straightforward.

All chemical and energy pistols should be avoided until Gunslinger is back to working on them. Unless you really love one trick ponies because that's what energy pistols are.

Energy is in theory very rarely resisted but in practice all of the hardest enemies: Spoilerless, Dreadbot, Final Boss are resistant to it. Oh, and energy shields are very effective vs them and are used by all those 1HKO snipers and Plasma Spoilers.

Yeah, pistols are more complicated and that's why they should be more powerful than simpler options but ... they are weaker.

[player1]

Funny thing about pistols...

If you get character build that is specialized for pistols with STR6, wouldn't he actually better perform, by just getting AR for shorter range and sniper for long range?

If you want badass AR build try sniper-commando build that Wildan posted some months ago. Its better then tin-can metal gun with AR. I tried both.

There is no doubt that specialized AR build will perform better. Been there done that.

What I'm talking about is that if you take pistol specialized build with STR6, and just switch to AR (that needs STR6), you will be more effective fighter (in many situations), then with pistol, which is plain weird.

[Wildan]

Than why would SMGs be hit harder than pistols? Going from Uber Awesome to 'just' Awesome is not as bad as going from barely viable to crap. Or is the new Gunslinger, that affects 1 out of 3 pistols categories, that great? On my pistol build i didn't really feel like i needed more initiative, except arena champion fight.

Because the new Gunslinger compensates faster pistols for decreased DEX bonus completely. Let's take 14 DEX and a 16 AP pistol as an example:
With old DEX formula it would get down to 10 AP and Gunslinger (-2) to 8. Now it get's down to 11 AP and Gunslinger (-3) to 8. So for faster pistols there is no difference at all. The change encourages the use of firearm pistols as a sidearm with low/mediocre DEX. Yes SMGs are still way better, nobody argues with that.

SO... SUMMING UP... Recommend me two pistols I should go with.

If you want to use firearms only stick to 15 DEX + eel and any best quality frame you can fit a 9mm on (10 AP per shot). For your secondary take the unique Bieretta 99 pistol. 5mm shock bullets are pretty g ood. Always do the special attacks (Aimed Shot, Rapid Fire, Point Shot, Execute) with your 9mm and with the rest of your AP spam with the 5mm. At 16 DEX it fires for 5 AP per shot so it's the fastest pistol in the game currently (except for RR 5mm hawker which sucks) but for the same reason you get virtually no critical chance from Steadfast aim which is 0.5% per AP above 10 (I thought it was just x 0.5 so it's worse than I remembered it), but as you see it shoots for exactly half the AP of the rapid 9mm so again, you have easy time min/maxing your AP pool.

The problem here is: You can't have 15 DEX, 6 AGI, 10 PER, and 7 INT. At level 24 there is 1 point missing so I'd drop INT and STR completely and invest into 11 PER, high AGI and replace Steadfast Aim with Uncanny Dodge for example.

Or you just play something else... Balancing seems to be an everchanging thing in Underrail. In alpha pistols used to be awesome, the crossbows lame, now it's exactly the other way around.

[reinhark]

I wonder what would be really better for bursts ARs vs SMG's. Noone did calculations so far. Hornet burst 9x 14-25 = 126-225. And you can burst 3 times a round with commando and rapid reloader so thats 378-675.

Now lets see 5mm Jaguar. 9x 8-13=72-117. With commando it will be 5 bursts so 360-585.

And Impala 7.62 can also reach 5 burts so lets see: 9x10-20=90-180 x 5 =  450-900!

Im too lazy to check steelcat but its same speed just 8-24 dmg. So dmg will be bigger then Impala.

However on SMG build you need 16 dex to get those numbers and your perception will be 8 vs 16 for AR's. So there is no clear answer what is better.

NOT SO FAST!
You must consider that Spec ops only applies to SMGs. Therefore, unless you somehow get additional AP per turn, AR can only burst twice per turn(with commando) because x3 AP cost for burst is pretty high.

I think optimal damage sweet spot of SMG burst can be met exactly at 7.62mm Jaguar, with rapid reloader(10 base AP cost per normal attack).
Then using only 9 Dex, 3 bursts per turn without commando is possible.
If you dump other stats to PER, then optimal damage output could be achieved.

Lastly, although this is irrelevant to this discussion but smart targetting lens attachment is better than the muzzle attachment after certain point.
Muzzle damage increase = 9(after muzzle)/7(before muzzle) = 1.286ish = 28.6% damage increase.
Which means "+29% increased damage with special attacks" is better than muzzle. Highly recommended if you have skills invested into electronics.

[Eldakar]

reinhark, Hornet assult rifle with rapid reloader will burst for 24. So you can burst twice, three times with commando. Also SMGs like you said require to get dex to 9+ or even up to 16. But to see again, and check numbers.

Hornet burst 9x 14-25 = 126-225 x 3 = 378-675

Jaguar 7.62mm burst 9x10-20 = 90-180 x 4 = 360-720

Yes It is better. But you need to dump 6 extra points into dexterity to make it work and waste feat on Spec Ops.

[eLPuSHeR]

I still prefer SMGs over ARs, but both are quite good.

In the interim I have returned to my sweet Sniper/SMG build. No matter how hard I try pistols still seem underwhelming to me.

I have that build savegames archived though. I may retake it sometime in the future.

PS - One question for Reinhard, Eldakar, Wildan and anyone else... Due to AP requirements, is Jaguar SMG better than Impala?

I have invested heavily in crafting but I am unable to see the so called benefits of impala vs jaguar/steelcat. (maybe better damage on the lower margin).

[Eldakar]

7.62mm Steel Cat if you go 16 dex. You still get 5 bursts with it with commando feat.

If you want to stay at 9 dex then Jaguar 7.62mm is best, it achives 4 bursts.

[eLPuSHeR]

I think I will be DEX 12 when I reach level 24. Now the question is to find a good quality non impala smg frame.

[reinhark]

reinhark, Hornet assult rifle with rapid reloader will burst for 24. So you can burst twice, three times with commando. Also SMGs like you said require to get dex to 9+ or even up to 16. But to see again, and check numbers.

Hornet burst 9x 14-25 = 126-225 x 3 = 378-675

Jaguar 7.62mm burst 9x10-20 = 90-180 x 4 = 360-720

Yes It is better. But you need to dump 6 extra points into dexterity to make it work and waste feat on Spec Ops.

I am pretty sure hornet takes 27 AP for burst...?(yes,  using rapid reloader.)
http://www.underrail.com/wiki/index.php?title=Assault_Rifles

Since gun skill increases damage of guns, I wouldn't dump too much stat on DEX. Reload also eats away AP faster.

PS - One question for Reinhard, Eldakar, Wildan and anyone else... Due to AP requirements, is Jaguar SMG better than Impala?

I have invested heavily in crafting but I am unable to see the so called benefits of impala vs jaguar/steelcat. (maybe better damage on the lower margin).

It entirely depends on your build - but it is simple really, since this method applies for all weapons.

If AP reduction of weapon(TiChrome product or jaguar for SMG) happens to increase the number of "# of main DPS skill you can use per turn", then it is usually superior.
(of course, you need to consult AP table for this)
you have to run DPS calculation for weapons, if AP reduction doesn't do anything.
Innately high crit chance for your character means Steel cat is better.
Otherwise impala.

Since you are going for DEX 12, AP reduction of the jaguar does not matter, I think(unless you count AP to reload). 3~4 Bursts per turn for any 7.62mm SMG. In that case, I would just go for impala.

[Eldakar]

Ok if thats the case so it is best to use difrent AR frame to get best burst + commando, since as you said Hornet burst is 27.

9mm Huszar will do 9x12-48 = 108-432  one burst + commando = 216-864

So as you see AR's are still very good since you conserve ammo.

[eLPuSHeR]

reinhark, Hornet assult rifle with rapid reloader will burst for 24. So you can burst twice, three times with commando. Also SMGs like you said require to get dex to 9+ or even up to 16. But to see again, and check numbers.

Hornet burst 9x 14-25 = 126-225 x 3 = 378-675

Jaguar 7.62mm burst 9x10-20 = 90-180 x 4 = 360-720

Yes It is better. But you need to dump 6 extra points into dexterity to make it work and waste feat on Spec Ops.

I am pretty sure hornet takes 27 AP for burst...?(yes,  using rapid reloader.)
http://www.underrail.com/wiki/index.php?title=Assault_Rifles

Since gun skill increases damage of guns, I wouldn't dump too much stat on DEX. Reload also eats away AP faster.

PS - One question for Reinhard, Eldakar, Wildan and anyone else... Due to AP requirements, is Jaguar SMG better than Impala?

I have invested heavily in crafting but I am unable to see the so called benefits of impala vs jaguar/steelcat. (maybe better damage on the lower margin).

It entirely depends on your build - but it is simple really, since this method applies for all weapons.

If AP reduction of weapon(TiChrome product or jaguar for SMG) happens to increase the number of "# of main DPS skill you can use per turn", then it is usually superior.
(of course, you need to consult AP table for this)
you have to run DPS calculation for weapons, if AP reduction doesn't do anything.
Innately high crit chance for your character means Steel cat is better.
Otherwise impala.

Since you are going for DEX 12, AP reduction of the jaguar does not matter, I think(unless you count AP to reload). 3~4 Bursts per turn for any 7.62mm SMG. In that case, I would just go for impala.

Thanks. I have already purchased a good Impala frame from Blaine and I have crafted several smart iterations which are quite good tbh.

[Eldakar]

What are dmg of your crafts? Does they differ much from underrail wiki?

[eLPuSHeR]

I don't know right now. I have to compare mine with the wiki. I don't remember if I took "gun nut" perk either.

[Wildan]

A RR Hornet AR will indeed burst for 27 AP because of 9 base AP x 3 = 27.
This is one of the very few inconsistencies in the game. When AP cost of anything gets modified by DEX, abilities, pneumatic reloader, rapid reloader - the value can end up not being an integer (whole number). AP cost will always get truncated like 16,8 -> 16 or 12.3 -> 12 except for the rapid reloader mod. It always rounds up to the nearest integer which is in the case of the Hornet riffle 11 - 20% = 8,8 -> 9.
Funny enough the pneumatic reloader which does the same thing for crossbows (decreases the AP cost by 15%) still get's truncated so a Cyclon crossbow will have 21 - 15% = 17,85 -> 17

I guess this was done on purpose to specifically prevent a RR hornet to burst twice or even use it once together with one shot of RR Spearhead sniper (24 AP). Otherwise together with Commando, Full Auto and Concentrated Fire it would overpower everything else easily. RR Hornet is still good as it is. Adrenaline shot lasts for 3 rounds and there is also the Blitz perk. Used strategically you can than burst 2/3 times and often kill everybody before fatigue kicks in. Actually you can do the same thing with a non RR Hornet because 11 AP is good enough to burst twice for 66 AP.

[Wildan]

I assumed the rapid reloader bonus is exactly 20% after a quick test with some weapon models. It's probably slightly less than 20%, perhaps 18%.

Now THAT would be the most plausible explenation. I guess we'll find out through testing. Doing it right now and it's even more weird. Here an example:
A 14 AP Maurauder with 8.6mm barrel shows 12 AP in the crafting screen as well when eqipped. 14 -20% = 11,2 so 20% is indeed too much but even if we take 15% it should be lower than 12 AP: 14 - 15% = 11,9.
The reduction MUST be over 15% however because when I use the RR with a .44 Hammerer (32AP) it gets down to 26. If it was 15% it would result in 27,2 (27). Using a 20% formula it goes to 25,6.

So my conclusion is: It is indeed 20% but the rapid reloader always results in rounding up instead of the opposite like with the rest. If it's not intentional than maybe it's a simple mistake in the rounding algorithms: Ceil (round up) instead of trunc.

If it get's changed to truncating I'm afraid it will actually go against the current balance. A RR Hornet is already very powerful. Being able to burst twice without the reliance on adrenaline shot/Blitz would be overkill.