Author Topic: Would steel gloves and metal armor build work?  (Read 12683 times)

Eldakar

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Would steel gloves and metal armor build work?
« on: April 22, 2016, 05:11:41 pm »
I was wondering would this build work? Metal spikes, expertise, serated blades, heavyweight, juggernaut etc?

7+/10++++/6+/6/3/3/5

Expertise
Opportunist
Sprint
Juggernaut
Cheap shots
Bone breaker
Wrestling
Combo
Taste for blood
Vile weaponry
Heavyweight
Opportunist
Recklessness
Dirty kick ( for fun

Items:

Supersteel gloves with TiChrome Spikes
Supersteel armor with Serrated TiChrome Blade and TiChrome Spikes
Boots made of Supersteel plates and steel spikes
Lifting belt (?)
Metal helmet (??)

Edit: I just realized this char will end up with 4 attacks  because no tabi or lightning punches. Will it still be viable?
« Last Edit: April 22, 2016, 05:36:05 pm by Eldakar »

reinhark

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Re: Would steel gloves and metal armor build work?
« Reply #1 on: April 22, 2016, 06:48:19 pm »
I was wondering would this build work? Metal spikes, expertise, serated blades, heavyweight, juggernaut etc?

7+/10++++/6+/6/3/3/5

Expertise
Opportunist
Sprint
Juggernaut
Cheap shots
Bone breaker
Wrestling
Combo
Taste for blood
Vile weaponry
Heavyweight
Opportunist
Recklessness
Dirty kick ( for fun

Items:

Supersteel gloves with TiChrome Spikes
Supersteel armor with Serrated TiChrome Blade and TiChrome Spikes
Boots made of Supersteel plates and steel spikes
Lifting belt (?)
Metal helmet (??)

Edit: I just realized this char will end up with 4 attacks  because no tabi or lightning punches. Will it still be viable?

Playable... barely? I assume you will run in to a wall when fighting the final boss.

Certainly seems like derivative of Sledgehammer build... but much weaker, because you are diverting STR -> DEX, and TiChrome hammer can swing 3 times per turn.

Note:
Spikes attached on armors are rubbish. They add flat damage in additional to normal damage. And they are calculated separately when calculating damage.

So if enemy have metal armor those spikes will do NOTHING.(because resistance)

This build can't dodge much either, because your armor penalties are too high.

Only time I made Metal gloves + Metal armor was to use lightest metal(Supersteel is MUST), armor sloping and nimble to proc lighting punches.
Serrated blades are recommended on metal armor to proc Taste for blood.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2016, 06:59:49 pm by reinhark »
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Eldakar

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Re: Would steel gloves and metal armor build work?
« Reply #2 on: April 22, 2016, 07:13:28 pm »
But with this build you proc dmg 6x with expertise with total of 1800 dmg on lvl 25.
I wonder how would be build with force emision with bare hands. Need only 12 dex for 4 ap punches. Corporeal Projection + 14 str would make it hit hard, no?

I wonder how all this compare unarmed PSI vs claw build vs steel / leather build. Which one would be best.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2016, 07:47:52 pm by Eldakar »

reinhark

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Re: Would steel gloves and metal armor build work?
« Reply #3 on: April 22, 2016, 07:22:37 pm »
But with this build you proc dmg 6x with expertise with total of 1800 dmg on lvl 25.
I wonder how would be build with force emision with bare hands. Need only 12 dex for 4 ap punches. Corporeal Projection + 14 str would make it hit hard, no?

Interesting... Could you explain "x6 with expertise" part please?
I do not have clear number on force emision.. but I recommend you to include Telekinetic Proxy into calculation.
Force emission damage can be doubled by Telekinetic Proxy.
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Eldakar

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Re: Would steel gloves and metal armor build work?
« Reply #4 on: April 22, 2016, 07:32:43 pm »
My calculation were wrong. It will be 6 hits from gloves/boots/armor that each does 25 from expertise. Thats 150 dmg x 10 attacks if you use leather gloves with spikes and have 16 dex. So thats 1500 dmg. Still pretty high. But it requires to have 20 armor penality max for lightning punches. So number will be even lower on that build i posted. Like 150x4=600



« Last Edit: April 22, 2016, 08:06:02 pm by Eldakar »

reinhark

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Re: Would steel gloves and metal armor build work?
« Reply #5 on: April 22, 2016, 08:01:28 pm »
My calculation were wrong. It will be 6 hits from gloves/boots/armor that each does 25 from expertise. Thats 150 dmg x 10 attacks if you use leather gloves with spikes and have 16 dex. So thats 1500 dmg. Still pretty high. But it requires to have 20 armor penality max for lightning punches. So number will be even lower on that build i posted. Like 150x4=600

Just checked. Spike(on armors and boots) damage does not work with
1. STR or Melee skill
2. expertise damage
3. ..but it can crit.

Spikes(From armors only, spikes on gloves works fine) literally adds FLAT damage. If armor says "it deals additional 10 damage per attack", it deals 10 damage per attack, period. It doesn't matter how much damage modifier from stats or feats you do have.

Think of Armor spike damage as a baby punching the same target when you punch. That baby do not benefit from your stats what so ever. But that baby can do minuscule damage attack, which can be blocked by enemy's base resistance.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2016, 08:07:21 pm by reinhark »
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Eldakar

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Re: Would steel gloves and metal armor build work?
« Reply #6 on: April 22, 2016, 08:06:09 pm »
PSI build:

9++++/10++/7/3/3/3/5

Sprint
Opportunist
Corporeal Projection
Lightning punches
Cheap shots
Fancy Footwork
Bone breaker
Combo
Taste for blood
Expertise
Guard (??)
Recklessness
Wrestling
Nimble


However 3 con + -25% hp penality will suck.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2016, 05:42:42 am by Eldakar »

Wildan

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Re: Would steel gloves and metal armor build work?
« Reply #7 on: April 24, 2016, 01:04:05 pm »
I think that Expertise did work with armor spikes at some point but it no longer does. Also armor spikes or serrated blades stack, meaning if you use more than one you don't get additional hits or bleed procs but only higher damage so it never really pays off to use more than one each.

Metal armor is still a very good choice for a gloved fighter, not because of Expertise but because of the sturdy vest you can use with crafting. For metal armor the additional hitpoints you gain equal 100% of the vest quality so theoretically you can get up to 160 HP. This is a huge amount for a level 25 psi brawler with 3 con and thus only ~ 175 HP. It's somewhat rare though so you'd have to check the shops regularly. The quality of the vest will only influence bonus HP, metal plate will still determine the armor penalty and the defense stats so Armor Sloping + Nimble + <20 armor penalty is mandatory. It's achievable with Supersteel and max one serrated blade or Tichrome and no blades, and you don't really need any as you can proc bleeding with gloves.

DEX used to be on par with STR when it came to total damage output per turn (incl. critical damage), maybe even better. Now that it got nerfed, STR wins so try to keep it as high as possible. You don't need more than 10 DEX for metal gloves anyway. 16 base AP will go down to 13 AP and Lightning Punches + tabbis will finally bring it to 10 AP what equals 5 hits. In order to get 6 hits you'd need to get down to 8 AP per hit and it's not achievable with less than 14 DEX. That's 4 stat points you'd need to take off from STR which would equal loss of 40% weapon damage bonus, just to gain 20% damage through 1 extra hit - absolutely not worth it, even more so if you take the loss of weapon skill into account -> less damage and precission.

Also with only 5 hits per turn, both Expertise and Fancy Footwork don't really pay off so just stick to 6 AGI, Sprint and Recklessness. The later will significally quicken your Bone Breker procs which will stack up nicely with all mechanical damage including that from Force Emission. Combo is much weaker since the latest patch, maybe not entirely useless but there is always a better choice. Penumatic gloves and Power Fist can guarantee incap so skip Combo. Expose Weakness on the other hand is a must. Because of 3 CON it might be a good idea to wait with PSI atleast until you're done with Depot A. If you go for it earlier you can still manage but in that case I critically recommend to use a vigorous belt (+30 HP, - 2 AGI) + burrower burger (+1 CON) + pig leather tabis (+1 CON) if you happen to find/craft them. Hint - Blaine always sells the tabi recipe and sometimes even a Tichrome plate. You'll get there before level 12 and if you happen to get Tichrome (plus a sturdy vest), take +1 INT and Armor Sloping on Level 12 and craft the armor.

Before that, for a PSI glass cannon that bit of additional HP with extra CON and the belt can mean the difference between life and death, especially if you happen to step on a mine. Speaking of which, invest alot in traps skill BEFORE you step into Depot A and use antithermic/blast gear when walking around those minefields (even if it ruins your stealth) or you're likely to die from one single blast.

Crafted metal gloves are ok but they can't compete against the Power Fist. That thing is seriously OP. Late game, together with rathound barbeque you'll end up with 17 total STR which also equals 100% additional Power Fist melee damage. Untill you get it, it's probably better to use crafted leather gloves (1 shock, 1 pneumatic) + eel sandwich. 11 DEX is enough to get down to 6 AP per hit resulting in 8 hits/turn. Once you get the Power First use one of the two unique leather gloves as the secondary weapon - the Claw or the Ripper's glove. The latter is superior when you have the serrated supersteel armor and easy time stacking and keeping Taste for Blood alive. Bear traps are also awesome to get TfB flowing as all it takes is one single bleed wound to start stacking.

So to sum it up, statwise best go for 10+++++/10/6/3/3/3/5+

Feat progression I'd recommend:
01 - Sprint
01 - Recklessness
02 - Nimble
04 - Lightning Punches
06 - Quick Tinkering
08 - Cheap Shots
10 - Bone Breaker
12 - Taste for Blood
14 - Critical Power
16 - Armor Sloping
18 - Wrestling
20 - Vile Weaponry
22 - Expose Weakness
24 - Corporeal Projection

[Edit 19.05.] Replaced Opportunist with Critical Power as the crit chance with only 10 DEX is still worth the extra damage. Opportunist on the other hand is less good without Combo which I had to remove in the first place.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2016, 02:18:52 am by Wildan »

Eldakar

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Re: Would steel gloves and metal armor build work?
« Reply #8 on: April 24, 2016, 02:30:29 pm »
Awesome post Wildan. With the build you posted there is no points left for hacking/lockpicking and traps however. One more thing, does anyone know what is exact formula for calculating force emission dmg? Is it worth to pump to the max Psychokinesis?
« Last Edit: April 24, 2016, 02:39:33 pm by Eldakar »

reinhark

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Re: Would steel gloves and metal armor build work?
« Reply #9 on: April 24, 2016, 02:46:09 pm »
Crafted metal gloves are ok but they can't compete against the Power Fist. That thing is seriously OP. Late game, together with rathound barbeque you'll end up with 17 total STR which also equals 100% additional Power Fist melee damage. Untill you get it, it's probably better to use crafted leather gloves (1 shock, 1 pneumatic) + eel sandwich. 11 DEX is enough to get down to 6 AP per hit resulting in 8 hits/turn. Once you get the Power First use one of the two unique leather gloves as the secondary weapon - the Claw or the Ripper's glove. The latter is superior when you have the serrated supersteel armor and easy time stacking and keeping Taste for Blood alive. Bear traps are also awesome to get TfB flowing as all it takes is one single bleed wound to start stacking.

Hmm... I must disagree with Powerfist choice - as endgame crafting is the most powerful of them all.
Powerfist - despite being metal glove missing the most important part of all things. That is - Spikes.
If you are going to invest heavily in to mechanical skill(and you probably will, because Supersteel armor.) I suggest Supersteel gloves + Tichrome/Tungsten spikes, as it greatly overshadows any unique gloves you can find.
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Wildan

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Re: Would steel gloves and metal armor build work?
« Reply #10 on: April 24, 2016, 02:48:11 pm »
I don't know the formula but it definatelly pays off to max Psychokinesis as with 6 INT (8 with Junkyard Surprise) you'll have plenty of points left to max melee, dodge, evasion, stealth and get high crafting skills, lots of traps, hacking, lockpicking and maybe even some a bit throwing if you make a good use of the home basement and don't go overkill on crafting.

I'm aware that crafted metal gloves are stronger and with high quality components one can't go wrong with them, but you can't make them both, shocking and pneumatic like the Power Fist. Monks/brawlers are no longer CC experts. 20% stun chance every 3 hits renders Combo too weak to be considered seriously. Maybe for high DEX 4AP/hit build but not for a 10 AP one. The guaranteed incapacitation every fourth hit is more useful than ever. You can count 3 hits vs 1 target and then switch to another one to disable it up to 4 rounds dealing a 250% damage spike on that hit helps alot vs. high mechanic threshold. On the other hand the connective shock damage is too good to be left out when crafting so you have to decide. On the Power Fist there is also the +1 STR buff that contributes to both higher precission and weapon damage through higher skill AND through STR damage bonus itself.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2016, 05:57:04 pm by Wildan »

X41823T

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Re: Would steel gloves and metal armor build work?
« Reply #11 on: April 24, 2016, 07:23:37 pm »
Herp derp "this is definitely me when I..." run around and punch everything getting in my way;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHa9jaxypfU
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reinhark

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Re: Would steel gloves and metal armor build work?
« Reply #12 on: April 24, 2016, 08:31:09 pm »
I don't know the formula but it definatelly pays off to max Psychokinesis as with 6 INT (8 with Junkyard Surprise) you'll have plenty of points left to max melee, dodge, evasion, stealth and get high crafting skills, lots of traps, hacking, lockpicking and maybe even some a bit throwing if you make a good use of the home basement and don't go overkill on crafting.

I'm aware that crafted metal gloves are stronger and with high quality components one can't go wrong with them, but you can't make them both, shocking and pneumatic like the Power Fist. Monks/brawlers are no longer CC experts. 20% stun chance every 3 hits renders Combo too weak to be considered seriously. Maybe for high DEX 4AP/hit build but not for a 10 AP one. The guaranteed incapacitation every fourth hit is more useful than ever. You can count 3 hits vs 1 target and then switch to another one to disable it up to 4 rounds dealing a 250% damage spike on that hit helps alot vs. high mechanic threshold. On the other hand the connective shock damage is too good to be left out when crafting so you have to decide. On the Power Fist there is also the +1 STR buff that contributes to both higher precission and weapon damage through higher skill AND through STR damage bonus itself.

My argument is that "the best CC in any game is quick death"(well, 2nd best. but you get the point). Taking sweet time killing them with lower damage only give your enemies more chance to take a shot at you.(also, EMP.)
Edit: Just checked item to see that well crafted Supersteel gloves can do ~x2 mechanical damage, not including electrical damage - as Power gloves does insane electrical damage. I don't have character to check endgame damage for that.


And if you really want to dip in to CC, I'd recomment to psi... any of 3. Cryostasis, Force Field, Electrokinesis(if you have AP), Electrokinetic Imprint, Telekinetic Punch(high Psychokinesis req. for stun chance). Hell, you still have quick tinkering w/ bear traps.
Take premedation(hmm... take cheapshot out?) and you are good to go.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2016, 08:41:51 pm by reinhark »
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Eldakar

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Re: Would steel gloves and metal armor build work?
« Reply #13 on: April 25, 2016, 05:41:31 am »
Wildan, about that sledgehammer build you mentioned, its new thing? 7 dex for quick tinkering i guess. That feat is so great on hard.

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Re: Would steel gloves and metal armor build work?
« Reply #14 on: April 28, 2016, 08:55:59 am »
As for an actual answer I would say yes, if you can run around in full metal armor and whack people with a sledgehammer then I don't see why one wouldn't be able to run around in full metal armor and punch things, besides since you'll be getting 8 STR I suppose the feat "wrestling" becomes an option.

Personally I prefer sledgehammers if I'm going to use full metal armor anyway, besides I for one think it's more 'interesting' to be some 'derailed' kung-fu-wannabe bastard who've played too much "Double dragon" dressing up in ancient rathound leather jacket 'n boots.
Although it is 'hard' to resist picking psychokinesis(?) for an "unarmed" user.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2016, 09:02:28 am by X41823T »
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