Author Topic: Crawlers / Death Stalkers  (Read 21408 times)

destroyor

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Re: Crawlers / Death Stalkers
« Reply #30 on: April 30, 2018, 12:19:45 am »
- Heavy armor and evasion/dodge are polar opposites and both are equally viable when taking into account the builds they can support. (Avoidance is weaker than heavy armor, but comes with higher mobility/stealth/initiative potential to lessen the need for tanking.)

Evasion/dodge might be equally viable w/ Heavy armor on hard but this is simply not true on Dominating. I tested this extensively myself and I'm sorry to say the 30% global skill buff heavily penalizes Evasion/dodge build. When playing normally, your evasion/dodge will always lag behind npc weapon skills even if you max them every level. If you look at the return on investment of these 270 (135 for each) skill points they are simply not worth it.

Ronin

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Re: Crawlers / Death Stalkers
« Reply #31 on: May 04, 2018, 06:49:50 am »
- Even if we assume high initiative was the only viable way to play (it isn't) that leaves a lot of viable builds, not just one.
- Dex only/agi only characters don't lose the initiative roll "most of the times", they win the majority. But to up the winrate to ~100%, you need dex, agi AND feats.
- Stealth is viable, if limited, with very little build focus (3 agi, skillpoints, armor set)
- Lockpicking is not required for anything except random lootboxes. It is a skill that can be skipped completely, but I don't recommend that to new players.
- Savescumming is not necessary. Although the game is not designed with permadeath in mind, skilled players often do hardcore runs as a challenge. I've even seen a streamer doing first-time hardcore run on the new DOMINATING difficulty.

- Honestly, CON does more on hard+. On easy/normal 3 CON gives enough HP buffer. Hard makes you think twice about dumping CON and HP gear is more valuable.
- Heavy armor and evasion/dodge are polar opposites and both are equally viable when taking into account the builds they can support. (Avoidance is weaker than heavy armor, but comes with higher mobility/stealth/initiative potential to lessen the need for tanking.)

I pointed out stealth because I thought you would like it better; all your troubles seemed to directly fixable with it. From that you went to thinking the player must always act first or die. That wasn't the intention and it's simply not true. I'm trying to empathise, to put myself in your position, but I just don't know where you're getting that whole "you die in 1 turn" thing from.

If you want help with your current build instead, you should share it in detail (character, equipment, what you are struggling with) because we don't really know why you're having such a hard time.

  I'm having a hard time not dying in 1 turn. That's all I'm complaining about. I have to hide all the time and spam CC stuff instead of actually fighting. My melee skill is wasted just because I have no AP left for it after I disable everyone who can attack me. Now to address your points:

-What are these viable builds? Care to mention a couple? And I hope I made it clear that by viable I don't mean completing the game through save scumming. I'd like to see this streamer you're talking about, even though there's no way he can prove he hasn't reloaded a single time.
-I actually had a dex only character so I'm pretty sure when I'm telling you you lose the initiative roll most of the times when entering new area/room.
-Have you actually tried that? I don't think you'll be able to get away with it when entering new area where the enemies are near the entrance.
-Lockpicking actually provides you with much more than random box loot. You'll be strapped for money througout first half of the game and you'll lose the strategic advantage it often offers.
-There's no way a first-time player can complete a game without save-scumming. I don't even think a veteran player can finish a hardcore run on hard+.
-3 CON may give enough HP buffer but not enough resolve. You still die in 1 turn vs psi enemies. The difference between 3 CON and 10 CON on hard+ is too negligible to actually matter. You still die in 2 sniper aimshots or something like that.
-If I kept statistics on how often I got hit when I maxed evasion/dodge I think it would've fallen somewhere in the ballpark of 70%. Considering what 1 hit does to such a squishy character, how can that be a viable build?

So you disagree that you die in 1 turn regardless of your build? Can you record a short video then of you surviving 1 turn on the second floor of Emporion?

Fenix

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Re: Crawlers / Death Stalkers
« Reply #32 on: May 05, 2018, 02:03:30 pm »
Dude, here is my melee, Domination.
I can't say it's easy, but I can deal with large groups too, like incapacitate-->stun-->run-->return.

harperfan7

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Re: Crawlers / Death Stalkers
« Reply #33 on: May 07, 2018, 12:50:35 pm »
Dude, here is my melee, Domination.

>bruce
>yellow/black jumpsuit

Nice.
*eurobeat intensifies*

Fenix

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Re: Crawlers / Death Stalkers
« Reply #34 on: May 09, 2018, 06:42:13 am »
Dude, here is my melee, Domination.

>bruce
>yellow/black jumpsuit

Nice.

 ;D

Sykar

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Re: Crawlers / Death Stalkers
« Reply #35 on: May 11, 2018, 03:30:11 pm »
I have been saying this earlier but this thread just reaffirms my opinion that Death Stalkers are over the top. Ultimately the better solution is to nerf their stealth capability to a reasonable level so they can be detected and dealt with without the need for cheese and metagame knowledge.

Fenix

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Re: Crawlers / Death Stalkers
« Reply #36 on: May 12, 2018, 07:32:31 pm »
Dunno.
I did recently Protectorate Warehouse mission - 3-4 DS, 3 Con, no problem.
I even didn't use Uncanny Dodge in some cases.
You just need to intuitively wait-move to bump into DS after he bite you.
Then tazer, incapacitate or stun.
At least for melee.

harperfan7

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Re: Crawlers / Death Stalkers
« Reply #37 on: May 12, 2018, 10:43:39 pm »
They resist tasers maybe 1/4 or 1/5 of the time for me; it's not too reliable.
*eurobeat intensifies*

destroyor

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Re: Crawlers / Death Stalkers
« Reply #38 on: May 12, 2018, 11:00:20 pm »
Dunno.
I did recently Protectorate Warehouse mission - 3-4 DS, 3 Con, no problem.
I even didn't use Uncanny Dodge in some cases.
You just need to intuitively wait-move to bump into DS after he bite you.
Then tazer, incapacitate or stun.
At least for melee.

Do you have a more detail explanation on "intuitively wait-move to bump in DX after he bite you?". It would be even better if you have a gameplay video.
Right now fight 3-4 DS, 3 con, dominating is a toss up for me. It would be amazing if what you said could be reproduce reliably.

Fenix

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Re: Crawlers / Death Stalkers
« Reply #39 on: May 13, 2018, 12:32:09 pm »
They attck not immediately. You retreat, use antidote, then just walk yo bump into them on a turn or next whe you should be stunned.


destroyor

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Re: Crawlers / Death Stalkers
« Reply #40 on: May 13, 2018, 07:00:04 pm »
They attck not immediately. You retreat, use antidote, then just walk yo bump into them on a turn or next whe you should be stunned.

Sorry mate but I'll believe it when I see it. When you are playing a 3 con char on Dominating you are close to death when you get hit by a DS. Depending on your gear, taking an antidote while being Hyperallergenic could be suicide. "Just walk yo bump into them" when facing multiple DS on top of all that seems off.

Fenix

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Re: Crawlers / Death Stalkers
« Reply #41 on: May 13, 2018, 11:42:58 pm »
Well, "everyone lies" isn't that productive.

MirddinEmris

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Re: Crawlers / Death Stalkers
« Reply #42 on: May 15, 2018, 06:35:53 pm »
Well, "everyone lies" isn't that productive.

He is asking for evidence because going by numbers that we know what you describe is not a very efficient strategy. Pretty productive if you ask me. How about making a video with a 10 or so encounters with DS in a row using method you described? Unedited, of course. That would prove you right without doubt)

Fenix

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Re: Crawlers / Death Stalkers
« Reply #43 on: May 18, 2018, 10:43:41 am »
This "we know" part is especially amazing....
If "you know" then I can't help.

Sykar

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Re: Crawlers / Death Stalkers
« Reply #44 on: February 06, 2019, 05:22:02 am »
Dunno.
I did recently Protectorate Warehouse mission - 3-4 DS, 3 Con, no problem.
I even didn't use Uncanny Dodge in some cases.
You just need to intuitively wait-move to bump into DS after he bite you.
Then tazer, incapacitate or stun.
At least for melee.

Ok I did not see this last year and just recently played through the Protectorate Warehouse mission again on a stealth PSI/Sniper level 11 so I feel I can address this even a year later on the newest beta build. My Sniper had 7 agi, 10 per, maxed stealth with ninja tabi boots and stealth overcoat plus Paranoia plus 60% +/- plus cave hopper steak plus stealth generator. I did not even have 1! second before a Derp Stalker initiated combat regardless which vent I went through. I cannot initiate combat since it is on a CD when you move through the vent. There is not even time to place a single trap or throw a single flare. There was absolutely nothing I could do besides having 70 Persuasion and go through the front door.
Having now a dozen of mostly unfinished playthroughs on Autistic difficulty, I more than ever think that Derp Stalkers are shitty grossly inflated enemies, worse than any of the other newly introduced ones, and for some idiotic reason Derp Stalkers got the most powerful gamebreaking debuff, denying you the ability to recover in any fashion from their initial attack, while dishing out high damage. Even if you break the following stun with stuff like LoC you still have to wait 10 turns until the debuff is gone, during that time you can basically heal yourself only via regenerative vest. However at higher levels, 18+ they become manageable even for low con stealth characters though still very dangerous and painful to deal with. In fact so much that I try my best to avoid them completely on all of my characters, because they are simply no fun to deal with, period. At least the other new enemy types have some weakness I can deal with. Derp Stalkers? Not so much.
It is possible to completely avoid them until high level but requires quite a bit of meta knowledge. Now the problem is that for some retarded reason Styg thought he should throw Derp Stalkers as early as level 10 at characters, one when you go to seek out the Rathound King and four down the aforementioned Protectorate Warehouse. One already is enough to give you a world of hurt, and that is putting it mildly. Four on the other hand at that level is, for most builds, essentially suicide.
Furthermore this is completely moronic considering until that time YOU DO NOT SEE THE FUCKING BASE VERSION unlike any other critter. I see absolutely no reason whatsoever to have Derp Stalkers down in the Protectorate Warehouse cellar except to spite players. For a normal natural playthrough having 4 of them down there is basically playing Russian roulette unless you made your build specifically to counter them.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2019, 09:13:37 am by Sykar »