This guy Sseth apparently will make these forums more popular

[zion563]

I'm not keyed into it but was looking at the Reddit and this dude apparently has a lot of clout with 1/2 million subscribers, and the consequently the game is on sale, and people who own it are firing it up. All you veteran builders out there be prepared-maybe update your builds and get ready to help! And be nice.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgAn68Uy2jQ

[DigitalDeckard]

Can confirm, picked up the game and got to the forums thanks to Seth highlighting things. Excited to dive in.

[T1vadar]

Same, Sseth hyped me up and I bought the game yesterday, can't wait to get home and start playing.

Came to the forums to look for a Pistol/Stealth/Trap build, but haven't found one yet. 

[chimaera]

Came to the forums to look for a Pistol/Stealth/Trap build, but haven't found one yet. 

That is because pistols are not that great for a stealthy trapper. Unfortunately, even though they are my favourite, pistols are the weakest of firearms (behind rifles, shotguns and smgs in terms of power) and the models you can add a silencer too (for silent stealth kills: https://www.underrail.com/wiki/index.php?title=Noise ) aren't the best. By comparison, crossbows are silent by default and have great synergy thanks to the deadly snares feat, which is why you will find many xbows and traps builds.

[DigitalDeckard]

Reading the forums through and trying to find build videos on youtube I did see a fair amount of the SMG/Spec Ops builds and was interested in trying that for my first time, but I also saw talk about it being nerfed with a patch. Is it still viable? I only picked up the base game and the only updated SMG build I could find said the expansion was required for it.

[T1vadar]

Came to the forums to look for a Pistol/Stealth/Trap build, but haven't found one yet. 

That is because pistols are not that great for a stealthy trapper. Unfortunately, even though they are my favourite, pistols are the weakest of firearms (behind rifles, shotguns and smgs in terms of power) and the models you can add a silencer too (for silent stealth kills: https://www.underrail.com/wiki/index.php?title=Noise ) aren't the best. By comparison, crossbows are silent by default and have great synergy thanks to the deadly snares feat, which is why you will find many xbows and traps builds.

Thanks for the tips, I'm going to look at some xbow builds. Do you think melee weapons go well with stealth ?

[T1vadar]

Reading the forums through and trying to find build videos on youtube...

If you haven't found Nerd Commando yet, check out his channel. He has really good build videos, even recommended by the creator of this game.

[DigitalDeckard]

@T1vader, I did find his build video for Spec Ops and was going to use that, I just didnt know if anyone had any input on any changes that should be made since that vid is a bit old at this point or if it still stands without needing any tweaking.

Basically, is all the talk about the SMG burst nerf just an OP combo that was brought back to a normal level of balance and people miss the OP or is it suboptimal in some way now?

[Altos]

Reading the forums through and trying to find build videos on youtube I did see a fair amount of the SMG/Spec Ops builds and was interested in trying that for my first time, but I also saw talk about it being nerfed with a patch. Is it still viable? I only picked up the base game and the only updated SMG build I could find said the expansion was required for it.

Basically, is all the talk about the SMG burst nerf just an OP combo that was brought back to a normal level of balance and people miss the OP or is it suboptimal in some way now?

Ultimately, it depends on what difficulty you're planning to play the game on and how you want to build your character. For a Dominating playthrough, the update making Burst an "unconditional special attack" made SMG builds significantly harder to play, as much of the power of Burst-centric builds came from the fact that 1.) Smart Modules and Smart Goggles stack (which they still do), and 2.) the resulting attack modifier was applied to every bullet in a Burst shot independently (which is no longer the case; now, special attack modifiers do not affect Burst at all).

In my case, before the nerf, I had a total Special Attack modifier of 85%. This meant that, after the nerf, the damage output of every single one of my Burst attacks was essentially cut in half--which ultimately made the build non-viable for a Dominating playthrough prior to the expansion. I couldn't even make it through the last area with it, anymore.

Expedition made the build viable again by allowing for more level-ups (higher gun skill and the potential for higher DEX, plus new feats like Blindsiding that made Stealth/SMG builds strong again). So, I was able to ultimately complete the entire game to my liking despite the nerf to Burst.

That said, none of this matters if you aren't playing on Dominating difficulty. On Hard and lower, SMG builds are still plenty strong enough (even with the nerf) to complete the game with, especially if you buy the expansion content. (Assuming, of course, that your build is decent.) On Hard difficulty, the final area and final boss will probably give you some trouble, but as long as you make sure to spec enough Chemistry and Mechanics to build your own W2C ammo, you should be fine.

Really, the saving-grace of all SMG Burst builds is the ability to make your own W2C ammo.

Maybe I'll compile my thoughts/experiences into a build post one of these days, but to be honest, SMG builds are pretty easy to get right.

[DigitalDeckard]

That said, none of this matters if you aren't playing on Dominating difficulty. On Hard and lower, SMG builds are still plenty strong enough (even with the nerf) to complete the game with, especially if you buy the expansion content. (Assuming, of course, that your build is decent.) On Hard difficulty, the final area and final boss will probably give you some trouble, but as long as you make sure to spec enough Chemistry and Mechanics to build your own W2C ammo, you should be fine.

Really, the saving-grace of all SMG Burst builds is the ability to make your own W2C ammo.

Maybe I'll compile my thoughts/experiences into a build post one of these days, but to be honest, SMG builds are pretty easy to get right.

That's basically what I was looking for. I'm just looking to do a normal/hard play-through, nothing extreme and I will probably pick up the expansion this Christmas, but just wanted to make sure things wouldn't get too out of hand.  I'll use the Nerd Commando Spec ops build keeping in mind about the burst item combo not functioning anymore as I level up. Thanks for your candid advice.

[Trashos]

Same, Sseth hyped me up and I bought the game yesterday, can't wait to get home and start playing.

Came to the forums to look for a Pistol/Stealth/Trap build, but haven't found one yet. 

Here is the (heavily tested and evolved on Hard/Oddity) pistol/grenades/traps build that I was using BEFORE Expedition. It can probably be improved now (especially by using Temporal Manipulation), but it can get you started. Pistols are extremely fun, because there are so many different types of them (firearm pistols, energy pistols, chemical pistols), and there is always the right pistol for each situation (eg, energy pistols against robots, chemical pistols against energy-shielded opponents or if you are a Prodigy fan and like to set things on fire).

The build:

STR 3 DEX 10 AG 3 CON 4 PE 10 WILL 3 INT 7
(On levels 4/8/12/16 you add the free ability point to DEX to reach 14. This is a good number for DEX that lets you fire your pistols a good amount of times per round. On levels 20/24 you can do whatever you want with your free ability points, but I 'd put them in CON)

Feats:
Lv1: Aimed Shot & Gunslinger
Lv2: Nimble
Lv4: Point Shot
Lv6: Grenadier
Lv8: Quick Tinkering
Lv10: Opportunist
Lv 12:  Execute
Lv 14: Critical Power
Lv 16: Cooked Shot
Lv 18: Mad Chemist
Lv 20: Sharpshooter
Lv 22: Power Management
Lv 24: Three Pointer

Skills:
Guns (always max points)
Throwing (got to get it to 30 invested points to get Grenadier, then you can drop it or slow down. I want my grenades to be accurate, so I usually take it up to 80 effective points or so)
Stealth (always max points)
Hacking (15 effective points on Lv1, then 5 effective points per level until you reach 130- I am talking about effective points as opposed to invested points, you will understand once you see the level up screen)
Lockpicking (same as Hacking, up until you reach 103 in effective points)
Traps (invest what remains, but you gotta reach 25 invested points to get Quick Tinkering, then slowly reach 115 effective points with no rush)
Mechanics/Electronics/Tailoring (same progression as Hacking, but the maximum numbers for crafting have changed with Expedition and I don't know the new ones)
Chemistry (take it up to 98 effective points at a convenient pace)
Biology (take it up to 70 effective points at a convenient pace)
Mercantile (take it up to at least 10 effective points by the time you are level 10)

I repeat, this is a pre-Expedition build. But it should still work well. You start with firearm pistols, ending up with a Hammerer 0.44. Later you will mostly be using Energy pistols (especially the Electroshock one, but also the laser). After mid-game, you will be using either energy pistols or chemical ones. If you are not doing good damage, you have brought the wrong pistol!

[chimaera]

Thanks for the tips, I'm going to look at some xbow builds. Do you think melee weapons go well with stealth ?

I don't play melee, so I can't give any recommendations, but afaik you can play with stealth. Likely unarmed or knives.

[Ravager]

Reading the forums through and trying to find build videos on youtube I did see a fair amount of the SMG/Spec Ops builds and was interested in trying that for my first time, but I also saw talk about it being nerfed with a patch. Is it still viable? I only picked up the base game and the only updated SMG build I could find said the expansion was required for it.

SMG has been nerfed somewhat, but it was a very powerful build to begin with. It's still a powerful build.

I can easily recommend the SMG Commando build for first-time players. It's very intuitive, and I almost ran with it for my first playthrough because it makes sense thematically. You basically play as if you are Blade [with the SMGs] or Kate Beckinsale's character from Underworld.

As explain above, you used to get 'special attack' damage bonuses for having a 'smart module' on your SMG that gives bonuses to said 'special attacks.' Styg nerfed that, by making bursts not that kind of 'special attack' anymore.

So what that really means for you is that instead of building your character based on doing extra damage from SMG bursts, you instead try to raise your "critical chance." You go for a "critical build." In practice, that means putting things on your SMGs other than the now-useless Smart Modules, not using the Smart Goggles anymore (use the ones that give critical damage bonuses), and doing whatever else increases critical hit chance.

Your grenades + grenade feats will carry you through a large part of the game, dealing with small groups of enemies. The SMG Commando is an excellent synergy between stealth and dexterity. You will get several bursts per turn, eventually, because of high DEX. And those DEX attributes will give you good lockpick, which is useful for novice players. The stealth means that you can basically 'decloak' near an enemy group and lay into them with SMG fire + grenades, and then use your Sprint to hide behind a corner. You basically always want to keep enemies within good burst radius, and don't let them get to sniping or knifing distance. It's a dance. And you can kite enemies.

Since the SMG Commando build only needs a few feats, you will have additional room to add your own quality-of-life feats, such as Pack Rathound, Clothier, Skinner, and getting out of entanglement. It's a really great build for new players.

The only thing that might be even more effective is a sniper / SMG hybrid character, but that's more complicated and requires a better understanding of builds. SMG build isn't complicated. [Don't use it on Dominating difficulty, though.]