Feedback on knife build for Dominating

[IcySynapse]

Hi y'all,

After beating the game in Normal with both pure PSI and science pistols builds, and 80% through my current Sniper/Metathermics playthrough, I'm already planning my next character and wanted to share my build and ask whether you think it would be Dominating-viable (on Oddity).

So here's what the build looks like:

http://underrail.info.tm/build/?FAMPCgMDAwgAHgBuKABZKiEeGVpaMiRaAAAAADIASyc5YQkWBhI8C0IQE-KdvwPfvw

Some explanations and comments:

1. Sure Step is non-negotiable since Stalker poison caltrops are the best thing ever.

2. Persuasion is there only because I want to save Buzzer (since none of my previous playthroughs did that), but I could consider dropping it.

3. Dodge is only there for Fancy Footwork (and probably Blitz at level 22), but I'm considering dropping it.

4. Traps is just high enough to use MK4 mines, but I'm considering dropping it to (40).

5. Biology and Chemistry because grenades and Stalker poison are just too good. Flashbangs have great synergy with Cut-throat as well.

6. 8 Int because of how many points I'm investing into crafting and I think 2 extra int (I'm not going below 6) will make a bigger impact than 2 extra con.

Mostly I have two questions: first, do you think this build is Dominating-viable? And second, should I drop dodge and some traps to pick psi-empathy and go for TM instead?

[Sfzrx]

Although I've never played a knife build on dom but I can point out some obvious things.

I consider persuasion to be generally pretty useless, you can save buzzer by saving hugo first, grenade the entrance to bypass the persuasion check and spend 1k charons, I can't think of any useful persuasion checks throughout the entire game.

Fancy footwork is probably a must have since you can get 5ap dagger strikes later.

Trap skill should probably be higher, with 3 per your detection will be relatively low, and you'll likely run into mines/webs before you detect them even with goggles, and for a 3con character that's usually a reload.

I'd put the 2 extra int into will for "ripper" feat, can't say whether it'll make a huge impact but it's certainly a damage boost for a knife build.

You should take in consideration of workbenches and hypercerebrix when putting in crafting skill points, right now it seems overkill.

TM LTI/haste/stasis will definitely help a lot, you can even invest 45 points in psychokinesis for wall and imprint

You'll probably want at least one initiative feat, trigger happy etc, otherwise bumping into death stalkers is likely reload.

With 18 dex you only need 57 points to max out throwing precision, I'd recommend doing that, because you'll likely have to rely on grenades for a lot for fights knives aren't good at.

Overrall I'd say a 3con knife build is dom viable, but will probably have a harder time compare to other builds.

[cypherusuh]

I just played Dom up to junkyard, but basically finished my knife build on hard
It's very viable on hard, but I'm not sure if it's viable on Dom tbh.
Persuasion and mercantile is a must early for  .44 hammerer sell and grenades + bear trap. Your knife won't be able to do anything against loads of psi beetles early on.

Ripper is amazing feat, but it only showed its strength quite late in the game when you already stack up lots of crit related feats. I prefer sprint than fancy footwork tbh, it's much more useful when you need it the most.
Overall in hard difficulty, knife is pretty strong when you want to play dirty with cutthroat + flashbang + bear trap abuse. I'd say that you have to have DLC to make it worthwhile thanks to Energy Edge mod

[Sat]

Your build is quite balanced and very viable on hard. On Dominating, you ll be hitting a wall due low damage output and cc options.
Everything that Sfzrx said is totally accurate. Only thinking it is not worth investing on triggering happy, you have high initiatives, you may use root soda when needed. Regarding traps, you will detect everything even with 3 per if you dont play on high speed and run everywhere blindly.
Regarding your feat selection, you may replace eviscerate (serrated have only 25% chance to cause bleeding) and crippling strike (Kukri that you will use until level 14-16 at least will do it better). These are good feats but you may find something better. Quick tinkering will be very useful and should be taken early enough.
For Dominating, you have to compensate the weaknesses of Knife to have a bit of fun. To give you an idea, a max melee at level 14 with Kukri is really not sure to kill a burrower in 1 round with adrenaline and psi temporal acceleration/contraction.
You may want to revamp it to a crit build with 100% chance at high level (max dex, 6 agi, 9 con, 6 int or to even dump agi, for rising will to 5 and int to 7). For feats, it is Survival Instinct, Recklessness, Weaponsmith, Critical Power and keep the base of your feats (Sprint, cheap shots,...). With high dex, it is worth going for max throwing and 3 pointer (with veteran investment in 3 pointer, it becomes easy on dominating to finish off enemies with knives), your throwing knives will finally be effective and fatal Throw is an extremely good feat. Versatility will open up energy and chemical pistols that will be almost necessary for dominating expedition and bots fights among others.

[Koveras]

I've been experimenting a bit with knives lately, and I can only approve what was said above, in particular:

- Going 100% crit is mostl likely the strongest choice, especially because Cheap Shots and Critical Power specializations are incredible and stack multiplicatively.

- Investing 70 Temporal Manipulation and 45 Psychokinesis would make the character strictly better (which is true for any build at the moment)

I would also add that:

- Cut Throat and Eviserate look nice on paper but I find them mediocre at best in practice. Humans are not the main issue when playing knife, and by the time I stack enough bleed for eviscerate to be useful the target is generally dead.

- I played through the DLC once with a full melee build without Escape Artist, never again. I'm surprised this wasn't mentioned in the previous posts to be honnest, am I missing some strats here?

- Probably obvious, but just in case: knives used to have a lot of problems against bots and heavily armored targets, but now we can have a TiChrome/energy edge backup to deal with them.

[Sat]

About escape artist, if you go grenadier/3 pointer and/or versatility, it gives you a big tool box to never get caught in creeper nest or natives nets. It makes also the beach attacks more manageable. It is a good point you raised as I have never played melee only on Dominating Expedition. So, without guns and high damage grenade, it is probably more than useful...

[IcySynapse]

I consider persuasion to be generally pretty useless, you can save buzzer by saving hugo first, grenade the entrance to bypass the persuasion check and spend 1k charons, I can't think of any useful persuasion checks throughout the entire game.

Thanks for pointing this out, I had no idea! I think I'll be dumping persuasion and some crafting and picking up some Psi. I reckon I'm probably in for a rough ride either way but that's kind of the point, since my current playthrough is a bit dull.

[IcySynapse]

I've been experimenting a bit with knives lately, and I can only approve what was said above, in particular:

- Going 100% crit is mostl likely the strongest choice, especially because Cheap Shots and Critical Power specializations are incredible and stack multiplicatively.

- Investing 70 Temporal Manipulation and 45 Psychokinesis would make the character strictly better (which is true for any build at the moment)

I would also add that:

- Cut Throat and Eviserate look nice on paper but I find them mediocre at best in practice. Humans are not the main issue when playing knife, and by the time I stack enough bleed for eviscerate to be useful the target is generally dead.

- I played through the DLC once with a full melee build without Escape Artist, never again. I'm surprised this wasn't mentioned in the previous posts to be honnest, am I missing some strats here?

- Probably obvious, but just in case: knives used to have a lot of problems against bots and heavily armored targets, but now we can have a TiChrome/energy edge backup to deal with them.

Your build is quite balanced and very viable on hard. On Dominating, you ll be hitting a wall due low damage output and cc options.
Everything that Sfzrx said is totally accurate. Only thinking it is not worth investing on triggering happy, you have high initiatives, you may use root soda when needed. Regarding traps, you will detect everything even with 3 per if you dont play on high speed and run everywhere blindly.
Regarding your feat selection, you may replace eviscerate (serrated have only 25% chance to cause bleeding) and crippling strike (Kukri that you will use until level 14-16 at least will do it better). These are good feats but you may find something better. Quick tinkering will be very useful and should be taken early enough.
For Dominating, you have to compensate the weaknesses of Knife to have a bit of fun. To give you an idea, a max melee at level 14 with Kukri is really not sure to kill a burrower in 1 round with adrenaline and psi temporal acceleration/contraction.
You may want to revamp it to a crit build with 100% chance at high level (max dex, 6 agi, 9 con, 6 int or to even dump agi, for rising will to 5 and int to 7). For feats, it is Survival Instinct, Recklessness, Weaponsmith, Critical Power and keep the base of your feats (Sprint, cheap shots,...). With high dex, it is worth going for max throwing and 3 pointer (with veteran investment in 3 pointer, it becomes easy on dominating to finish off enemies with knives), your throwing knives will finally be effective and fatal Throw is an extremely good feat. Versatility will open up energy and chemical pistols that will be almost necessary for dominating expedition and bots fights among others.

I hadn't considered a crit build! It doesn't quite fit my idea for the playthrough but I'd be willing to give it a go! How does this look like?
http://underrail.info.tm/build/?FAMPBQoDAwYATQBuAABQLRYZI1xbOSlaAC0ARgAAACsnYmMWMAYqMcKHSwA-378

I've noticed I'm quite starved for feats so I gave up on sure step (I'll use throwing knives for the crawler poison instead of caltrops, can't fit fatal throw by level 20 but would take it at 22), expose weakness (HE grenades instead) and sprint/fancy footwork/blitz. Skill points are tight as well so I dropped Mercantile (it was either that or a crafting skill, which realistically could only be Electronics as I REALLY don't want to drop Tailoring). I also pumped con up to 10 for thick skull since it seems way too good to pass.

Alternatively, I've refined my original build quite a bit, trimming out the fat:
http://underrail.info.tm/build/?FAMPCgMDAwgAJABuKABGIBQZH1VLMiRVAC0ARgAARisnYTlOFhMGRyrChwsw378

[Sat]

I have preference for the crit build. Both builds would be very hard and challenging.

Some comments that are of course linked to my ways of playing on the crit build you proposed:
For stats
- You do not need 10 Con and Thick Skull, you can switch for +1 Agi and take Sprint
For feats
- Pack rathound is a convenience feat, You can take it at level 28 before going to DC if you feel the need. You can use Regalia+lifting belt+BBQ.
- Recklessness should be taken earlier before level 6 maybe level 1 then. The same for 3 pointer but this is just my opinion here as knife are really lacking damage output and you will grenade enemies a lot.
- Fatal throw is an interesting feat but not before 22 or even later. Throwing knife will pack damage only late game + you need max dex to have full use of it.
For skill points
- Traps could be at 25, no need to go higher
- Lockpicking and Hacking could be a bit higher
- You may delay 70 to Temporal Manipulation by staying at 55
- Mercantile is very useful to, throwing should be maxed as well, I am not sure how to best manage the points, maybe by reducing crafting or delaying chemistry/biology...

A tough game is waiting for you in any case Do not forget to collect toxic sludge for crafting gas grenade, they may be useful early game.