Dev Log #68: The Psi Question

[idk706]

I made an account just to ask this question; With this Psi update now on the mainbranch does the waterways update come with that? I know it isn't clearly stated but I don't want to assume. If not then I'll wait to start another playthrough. Thanks in advance!

[moon2587]

It's not a perfect solution, I know, but it's some kind of compromise at least.

It would be better if the system actually did what you claim it is meant to do. Because as far as I have seen and played the system feels like a shoehorn of D&D systems into this game with spell-slots and such. Wouldn't a better system have been to make psi abilities more like an actual weapon choice rather then simply trying to break the whole point of playing a psion, the versatility?

Are you actually open to alternatives to this system that may make both sides happy? Or is it just your way or the highway at this point?

[chimaera]

Now in terms of adding more management to the psi build, one could argue that this is adding unnecessary tedium, but if look back at the history of Underrail's development you will find that we do tend to add these sort of complexities and restrictions to our mechanics as we flesh them out. Player is intended to have to pay attention and do some busywork in order to keep his character going. There used to be time when we had no weight restrictions, no selling restrictions, and at one point guns didn't even require ammo, though, to be fair, that was before the game was even available to play to the public. So you may not like this part of our design approach, but it is not at all inconsistent with what we did in the past.

I find this argument strange. Tedium decreases attention. Duplicating the psi points bar and adding yet another type of potion didn't add any complexity to combat so far. To compare it with bullets: for me the fun part with pistols was experimenting with different damage types, but I never bothered to count how many my character had, because of their overabundance and ease of crafting. But there are no different types of psi points. It's just micromanagement for the sake of micromanagement. And then you add vancian magic-like memorization s lots on top of that.

Compromising doesn't always work. As I've read once: if you can't decide which shoes to wear, wearing one of each pair is a compromise. Doesn't make it a good solution.

[sapfearon]

Not a fun of new psi rework. Instead of "collect them all" and using when i feel like, now i'm forced to be one trick pony all the time. There is still problem with 0 gear for psi based character. And gear that was added in expansion was nerfed like next patch. My character was wearing same armor for 60 hours, including ALL late game and all expansion. I also used spear as only pure-psi based weapon which was nerfed to the ground, so again - no weapons for psi either.

Tranquility while being best path also has big problem - staying at 100% health is impossible. Game like WoW which has same talent just allowed it to work until your health drops to 80%. So no longer random cough steals your bonus.

Instead of nerfing psi you should just make it harder to get, so if you want more then couple utility spells - invest more, specialize in it. If you playing pure psi build you already have 0 weapons/armors/utility choices besides craft 1 head gear, 1 armor, 1 shield and use knife for trap bonus for whole game (and uprade everything like 3 times). So reducing amount of abilities you can use makes it even more bland.

[Sanchez]

This is really bad changes and it fixes nothing. If psi builds will be forced to specialize in one tree that means even more excess skill points and more cheaper build to spec in overall.

What psi does have an issues is lack of sustainability in any of the school, lack of spells, and high expense of those.

4 Branches (1 is support) so it cannot be counted as an actual damage branch.

So 3 branches. None of them are sustainable to walk you through the game. You can do it with knives, you can do it with sword, you can do it any gun selection, but you cannot go through the game with just 1 psi branch.

I was going metathermics and telekinesis before last boss, where I had to switch to thought control to kill him. Because metathermics maxed out would deal no damage to Tchort, unlike though control that ripped him apart in 1 turn.

Thought Control absolutely useless vs robots and if you go it I cannot see you getting through GMS compound. Even if you go telekinetics, Electrokinesis is a very weak and highly expensive spell vs robots, and metathermics is useless.


Psi builds are extremely slow due to "spell cooldowns" and the need to regenerate psi points, the 100 you have is like 2 spells or 1 turn at best. Note as well as due to low agi low dex, low str. Any psi build is lacking = Good metal armor, Good initative, Good movement speed, Good dodge and evasion. So you are literally a glass canon that always moves second, you also already have minus -20-25% hp vs any other game class.

Overall changes would not be that bad if you would fix each branch of psi making it more variable and sustainable and add proper weapons to psi build, cuz running whole game without weapon, and just later crafting 1 vest and 1 headband is beyond lame.

Yes when you had access to all 4 branches, there was a lot of utility and crowd control. But this limits don't solve any of the issues of the psi and I would not say PSI was OP in the first place.
Making a knife build allowed me to clear the game like twice faster never have issues with any robots, or running out of psi.

Like seriously can anyone please try to start a new game and spec into psi build chose your school and play it through? Doubt you will even clear first mission with rathounds.
The first spell learned - TK Punch costs 50% psi, does LOW damage and has 3 turn cooldown. So you will have to use guns instead of psi....

So overall.
Psi builds were weaker than any knife / weapon build before update and cleared game slower, now its not even worth starting a game with a psi build, good luck specializing in one tree and getting through whole game.

Seriously a much better change would be to add psi weapons, wands or whatever, and make them chargeable with batteries or something like that. They would amplify one particular branch of psi abilities and cost certain energy per each spell casted.
Also add +6 spells to each branch or rework existing ones to allow different types of damage. Does not make sense to spec into psi build that only damages humanoids.

[Tamior]

This is really bad changes and it fixes nothing. If psi builds will be forced to specialize in one tree that means even more excess skill points and more cheaper build to spec in overall.

What psi does have an issues is lack of sustainability in any of the school, lack of spells, and high expense of those.

4 Branches (1 is support) so it cannot be counted as an actual damage branch.

So 3 branches. None of them are sustainable to walk you through the game. You can do it with knives, you can do it with sword, you can do it any gun selection, but you cannot go through the game with just 1 psi branch.

I was going metathermics and telekinesis before last boss, where I had to switch to thought control to kill him. Because metathermics maxed out would deal no damage to Tchort, unlike though control that ripped him apart in 1 turn.

Thought Control absolutely useless vs robots and if you go it I cannot see you getting through GMS compound. Even if you go telekinetics, Electrokinesis is a very weak and highly expensive spell vs robots, and metathermics is useless.

You are not supposed supposed to only use a single school through the game under new psi system.
The only thing new system really limits is using multiple (realistically, more than 2) schools in the SAME combat encounter. But you are not fighting robots AND Tchort at the same time, are you?

Psi builds are extremely slow due to "spell cooldowns" and the need to regenerate psi points, the 100 you have is like 2 spells or 1 turn at best. Note as well as due to low agi low dex, low str. Any psi build is lacking = Good metal armor, Good initative, Good movement speed, Good dodge and evasion. So you are literally a glass canon that always moves second, you also already have minus -20-25% hp vs any other game class.

This is so wrong on so many levels I don't even know where to start.
Nothing prevents you from using psi-cost-reducing gear and boosters to sustain your psi pool almost indefinitely.
Nothing prevents you from taking high agi if you want mobility and stealth.
Nothing prevents you from using stealth to always get the highest initiative.
Etc, etc.

[Sanchez]

This is really bad changes and it fixes nothing. If psi builds will be forced to specialize in one tree that means even more excess skill points and more cheaper build to spec in overall.

What psi does have an issues is lack of sustainability in any of the school, lack of spells, and high expense of those.

4 Branches (1 is support) so it cannot be counted as an actual damage branch.

So 3 branches. None of them are sustainable to walk you through the game. You can do it with knives, you can do it with sword, you can do it any gun selection, but you cannot go through the game with just 1 psi branch.

I was going metathermics and telekinesis before last boss, where I had to switch to thought control to kill him. Because metathermics maxed out would deal no damage to Tchort, unlike though control that ripped him apart in 1 turn.

Thought Control absolutely useless vs robots and if you go it I cannot see you getting through GMS compound. Even if you go telekinetics, Electrokinesis is a very weak and highly expensive spell vs robots, and metathermics is useless.

You are not supposed supposed to only use a single school through the game under new psi system.
The only thing new system really limits is using multiple (realistically, more than 2) schools in the SAME combat encounter. But you are not fighting robots AND Tchort at the same time, are you?

Psi builds are extremely slow due to "spell cooldowns" and the need to regenerate psi points, the 100 you have is like 2 spells or 1 turn at best. Note as well as due to low agi low dex, low str. Any psi build is lacking = Good metal armor, Good initative, Good movement speed, Good dodge and evasion. So you are literally a glass canon that always moves second, you also already have minus -20-25% hp vs any other game class.

This is so wrong on so many levels I don't even know where to start.
Nothing prevents you from using psi-cost-reducing gear and boosters to sustain your psi pool almost indefinitely.
Nothing prevents you from taking high agi if you want mobility and stealth.
Nothing prevents you from using stealth to always get the highest initiative.
Etc, etc.

So a PSI (magic caster) build is forced to have high agi / stealth? What is this nonsense?

New system essentially punishes using multiple schools, more than one, by the very least you have to get +1 useless feat keeping psi expenses the same when using 2 schools.

So a psi build cannot work without craftable gear to lower the psi costs? Cool.

Yes you do fight tchort and robots at the same time in multiple locations over the game.

Psi build is the only one that has no weapons and loses a lot on it.

Psi builds already have to max will - for damage output and max INT to be able to innervate spells.

Even before the patch it was lacking a lot, now its simply not worth playing.

[Tamior]

So a PSI (magic caster) build is forced to have high agi / stealth? What is this nonsense?

"Caster" is not a complete build. It just gives you "casting" as such. If you want other things (mobility, initiative, etc), you need to build for them. If you choose NOT to build for them, don't act all surprised when you can't win initiative rolls and have poor mobility.

New system essentially punishes using multiple schools, more than one, by the very least you have to get +1 useless feat keeping psi expenses the same when using 2 schools.

It only "punishes" using them within the same encounter. In no way it restricts you from having access to all schools as long as you don't try to use all of them at once. And even then 10% extra cost is not a major "punishment".

So a psi build cannot work without craftable gear to lower the psi costs? Cool.

Your point being?
Most other build will not even HAVE a good weapon without crafting.  While with psionics gear mostly effects sustainability.

Yes you do fight tchort and robots at the same time in multiple locations over the game.

No, you don't. Please provide video evidence of an encounter where you are forced to fight both robots and tchort at the same time.

Psi build is the only one that has no weapons and loses a lot on it.

I fail to see how psions having no need for a weapon to deal the same damage with their mind alone is a bad thing.
If anything, it means you can use any weapon without interfering with psionics.

Psi builds already have to max will - for damage output and max INT to be able to innervate spells.

No, they don't. You can innervate spells with int of 6 or 8 just fine.

Even before the patch it was lacking a lot, now its simply not worth playing.

Some players have completed the game on dominating with psions without a single reload pre-patch. If that's "lacking", do show me some evidence of another build can pull that off.

[Literally Who]

I'm going to offer my input on this as someone who only played pure psi and only on DOMINATING difficulty:

Maximum amount of psi reserves is equal to 5 times the maximum psi points.

I can't see myself beating the hardest encounters on DOMINATING difficulty with just 6 bars of psi points. This only encourages zone transition cheese and AI abuse to drop combat and use inhalers.

multiple psi schools will now incur global 15% psi cost penalty per additional school

This makes the above even worse.

you're limited in the number of innervated psi slots (1 + 1 per 3 intelligence, up to maximum of 6)

That's 15 Int for just 6 spells? You can't use any weapon with all the points in Int, and 6 slots aren't enough to even use only the best stuff from just two schools. Not to mention that there won't be enough cooldowns to rotate, so you'll be stuck casting something like Neural Overload or Cryokinesis, which are worse than any weapon. And you'll fail to progress in the game.

What's going to happen is pure psionics will disappear. No other build will have access to more than 2-4 spells, so every psionic build will be one of the weapon builds, but with moderate investment in one school, or low investment in two.

Force Field is now destructable
Thermodynamic Destabilization base damage percentage changed to 30%
Enrage maximum duration changed to 2
Psycho-temporal contraction now has a high chance of causing its opposite (with randomized power) when it expires

Actually, I'm not sure if any veteran will even take the psi pill now. Just delete the magic from the game if you're gonna do all this, so that newbies don't screw up their builds by using it.
If you absolutely want to go through with these nerfs, change the spell slots to 1 per 2 Int, and add perks with high Will requirement that would at least double spell slot gains, double psi reserves, and maybe reduce multischool cost penalty. Though I'll just stick to an older version if I want to play a psionic, don't mind me.

[TheAverageGortsby]

you're limited in the number of innervated psi slots (1 + 1 per 3 intelligence, up to maximum of 6)

That's 15 Int for just 6 spells?

You're a little late to the party and that info is somewhat outdated, now.  You only need 12 Int to get the max of 8 slots, and with the current New Psi system 6 slots really is plenty for a full psi build.  I updated my guide several weeks ago and it's still accurate: https://underrail.com/forums/index.php?topic=4149.msg23828#msg23828

I'm not saying you're wrong to dislike this massive change - I certainly don't like it - but it's not quite as bad as when it rolled out and psi is certainly still DOMINATING-viable, and possibly even still DOMINATING Ironman viable.

[chimaera]

I'd like to add that not everyone dislikes the changes because it made psi less powerful. I'm fine with psi abilities getting toned down; it's the addition "fiddling around" with having to innvervate abilities, use yet another consumable, rinse & repeat. I've played a psi until core city with the current patch, so I'd say I gave it a fair try, but at this point it's just not enjoyable to play.

[Literally Who]

You're a little late to the party and that info is somewhat outdated, now.

Yeah, my bad, I should've checked the patch notes too. My previous post is pretty much irrelevant. Still, all those changes at once look scary, I'm not sure I want to risk starting a new playthrough on a latest patch. Psi reserves seem like a chore and a potential hard cap on your performance in the hardest encounters, and the spell slots are quite restrictive no matter how you look at it. With only 8 slots I'll die from analysis paralysis.

[TheAverageGortsby]

Psi reserves seem like a chore and a potential hard cap on your performance in the hardest encounters, and the spell slots are quite restrictive no matter how you look at it. With only 8 slots I'll die from analysis paralysis.

Psi reserves really only heavily limit low level characters, and newer players.  If you understand the mechanics, and you add grenades and traps into the mix, then you'll always have plenty of psi to get through a fight.  If it's truly a concern for you, make sure you pick up a tiny bit of stealth.  You can always break combat partway through, stealth up to get away, and huff a paint can real fast.  By the time you get solidly into the mid-game, you'll start to pick up some psi cost reduction and though you can't stack it to 60-70% all the time like you used to be able to, you'll still have plenty of effective psi pool and reserves to get through the beach invasions and Lurker map clears and Emporion and the other big fights.  If you're really worried about psi reserves, play Tranquility.  With Meditation and Neurology, plus Philosophy a little later on, you'll have lots of reserves.  And there are a lot of psi inhalers in the game; you won't run out.

Spell slots just make the game less fun, not harder.  Increased cost for cross-school use just makes the game less fun, not harder.  The only reason psi might be less Dominating+Ironman viable now is because Force Field, Enrage, and ThermoD were automatic "I win" buttons before and now aren't quite as guaranteed to get you out of sticky situations, and that has nothing to do with psi reserve or spell slots - they were always highly psi point efficient and still are.  Don't worry about choice paralysis - just load up your 6-8 most broadly effective abilities and keep cruising on through; and if that happens to mean you're using three schools, well, there's a feat for that. 

Or, as you correctly point out, play the legacy branch and avoid this poorly thought out change entirely.

[DS_Vlad]

My first build was pure PSI, and it was a lot of fun. I can't speak for tranquility users, but psychosis made everything interesting. There was no lack of engagement there. You went into every scenario thinking "How am I going to survive with so little hp?", then worked out a plan and just wrecked everyone. I'm sure some people went into a lot of fights just using a few OP abilities over and over, but you had so many options with that build I can't imagine many people who ran it never experimented. Occasionally you'd have to do a bunch of savescumming, but that's what you got for going with a glass cannon.

It will be a bit harder with the new PSI, but I don't think the changes are too much. I've reworked my old build and the biggest issue I can see so far is the psi cost increase from multiple schools. Despite the stated intention, it does seem as if it were put in there just to punish you for going with multiple schools. The amount of slots are alright when you're high INT, but limiting them this way will definitely push people into sticking with OP abilities more often and result in less experimenting generally. This was one of the best parts of being pure PSI in my opinion and it's a shame it's been so neutered. The topic "An Average Explanation of Outstanding Psi Builds" reflects this, boiling down combat to "Use Metathermics, you only need 3 or 4 abilities."

Skill points are made much more abundant for pure PSI builds by the high INT requirement, so adding PSI slots to INT as well seems a little counterproductive to me, though logically it makes sense. To make it harder to spec into PSI for the advantages it gives, wouldn't it be better to either lessen the negative effects of overloading their mind through either some restrictive gear (for example a belt, removing the ability to also use a doctor's pouch, or even just another headband component) or maybe simply through being able to specialize psycho-neural flexibility? Removing the limitations outright would defeat the purpose of the update, it would seem, but as some feats reduce them already, it seems logical to me to suggest lessening the restrictions more though either Advanced PSI Empathy or just an entirely new feat since a lot of pure PSI would likely take that anyways. Currently the feats seem designed to gently prod people into innervating one or at most two schools. Since these builds have no lack of feats to choose from already, making that choice more difficult would be a good way to restrict them. As for making it harder to allocate skill points instead, PSI Empathy could always just have some line such as: "Focusing the mind on the development of its psionic potential has its downsides, namely the inability to simultaneously focus on other areas of study." making INT no longer give bonuses to other skills. That would cut out quite a few of the extra skill points.

PSI reserves are a nice addition. The only time it gets annoying is when you do want to experiment, since innervating a new set of abilities so frequently leaves you consuming inhalants left and right. I see the reasoning behind it, but it also seems odd to me that this mental energy is incapable of replenishing without a man-made medicine. Maybe you know what I'm going to say... a feat could solve that. It could possibly be added into something like Forceful Innervation, and even if that never happens, it would still be nice to be able to unlock psionics that way instead of the pill Pasquale gives you. I still remember doing the first few quests without psionics before looking up a guide and finding out that "natural way" didn't actually exist. Forceful Innervation vs Medically induced would be an interesting fork in the PSI path similar to Tranquility vs Psychosis.

More than anything I miss the flexibility of a build chosen specifically for it, and I hope in the future it will be restored to a greater degree, even if that comes at a great cost to other convenient parts of the build. It was nice knowing you could stumble into situations like the one pictured and still be able to navigate them without too much frustration. All in all I think the changes are interesting if a bit convoluted, but I'm glad to have a game where you can come back after a few years to find such complex updates as these, even if they sometimes derail you. I hope the release of the legacy branch doesn't mark the end of PSI's fine tuning.

[Street Cutter]

I've played three kinds of thought-control melee builds through three playthroughs of varying difficulty.

I have preferred the most recent iteration of PSI on this knife build the most.