A bit of Player Data and Pure Opinion

[twitch]

I'm pretty sure that the dialogue is initiated purely based on proximity, and ignores stealth. Anyways, it doesn't matter because as you said, loot and exp.

[Elhazzared]

Ah so it works as I though it would... Good!

[Lohengrin]

I'm playing a stealthy melee, and I am getting absolutely murdered by burrowers. I've played through twice already, on a stealthy/sniper and a pistol/psi character, but this guy is just terrible. Not liking melee - even with a shock tungsten sledgehammer and pneumatic gloves, I'm getting ravaged. Burrowers just suck vs. melee

[Elhazzared]

I imagine you have pumped up the abillity that increases stealth. keep that skill at 5 and try again to see if it's possible. Also how in the hell do you have a sniper gun at this point? Anyone starting a clean game should not have that gun under any circunstances. Let's keep it realistic and say you get at best an SMG.

[Lohengrin]

Another character I played had the sniper rifle - it was a high stealth, sniper/assault rifle build. That character was almost ez-mode. The psi was my second playthrough, he was a little tougher in the beginning, but was a beast at higher levels. This is my third play-through - I'm at level 9 stealth/melee (both maxed) now, and seriously struggling with some encounters

[Elhazzared]

Well what I mean is. Stealth in and of itself isn't really that great. Spec to stealth is a waste in my opinion, so long as you get enough to sneak around in a manner to start combat into your own terms, that's all the stealth that is ever needed. To put points into the stat that gives it more bonus is to waste abillity points in my opinion. 5 is just about enough not to get penalties and still have a decent value that will allow anyoe to start combat in their own terms.

As for the sniper rifle... Really? I've never seen one for sale after the GMS even after several playthroughs. I also never would have the money to buy one even if it was for sale cause they are stupidly expensive. Sure after doing a few more missions, doing the first bits of depot A I can afford it but never before that.

[Elhazzared]

It's not really what I'd call a hybrid build. Stealth is for me the start combat button. You don't get to start unless you have some but I don't see a big advantage on having it that high. Sure, agillity gives dodge and evasion bonus but dodge and evasion are not reliable skills unlike armor which will be there in every single attack. More to the point they are 2 extra skills that if you take, are going to leave you hurting elsewhere... Snipe is a better example but you don't really need agillity to further pump snipe, 5 agillity using snipe pretty much kills anything with one shot... Well, maybe a mutant will survive on extremelly low health but that's about it really.

I'd have to say this is a syndrome of not having enough point to diversify enough. When specialisation is required to this point one just has to look at what's aboslutly necessary and what isn't. Sure you can do different builds but I feel they are just much weaker when compared.

[Elhazzared]

I don't think dodge and evasion will save you in the long run. Sure you managed to get up there and kill a few enemies, but if you get to a certain place where there is so many clustered around that they give you no chance other than agro the whole pack and you can't effectivelly kill a big enough number with a single nade. zerg rush ensues and no amount of movement points will save you towards the number of movement points burrowers have.

I personally never used heavy armor, all of my builds are actually no dodge and/or evasion, light to medium armor, stealth and then well, depends on the build, I can't take too much damage either, that much is certain. I can handle a few hits but the idea is killing everything or keep stunlocks or other effects that let me deal with it in due time.

As for diversity. I'll give you a simple example.

Psiker like i'm doing the Let's Play.

3 psiker skills
1 weapon
stealth, hacking and lockpicking
I have 1 point left which really isn't much room at all to do anything cause everything else I picked already is mandatory!

let me give you my trapper example

2 weapon skills
stealth, hacking, lockpicking
traps
I have 2 skills left but one thing I need is persuasion, at least to let me get to a certain point. I need crafting skills for explosives and for weapons... there just isn't enough leeway... Now granted I shouldn't have gone trapper and made space for one extra skill but still!

[Elhazzared]

I don't consider straight damage mitigation for one simple reason. you don't get baddass armor at the beggining, there is no money for that and I don't like investing into constitution either cause there are other places I need the points a lot more, places like perception or will. I always consider first and foremost the skill which will give me the damage output and well, I don't like to bring several abillities low cause sometimes that comes to bite in the ass. That is why I can't consider not taking stealth or try a straight guy who can take the hits because at the beggining I simply can't.

By the time I'm in metal armor, realisticly, I'm already at the junkyard and doing depot A which is the absolute last thing I do.

I don't do hybrid defense builds. I do glass cannons. Stealth isn't a defense for me, it's my way to innitiate combat rather than getting initiated upon. My damage mitigation is minimal but my my spec goes purelly into damage. I don't know if you've watched any of my Let's Play vidios but if you do you'll see my build is pure damage. 10 into will for starting, 7 perception which is more than enough for the crossbow and then get 3 from snooping which will give me full detection for secrets and stuff. Skill wise I always raise my attack skills, no exceptions.

Laying down mines is not really a good thing for me. Too long even with the feat. Mines don't realy do more than a grenade with the added problem that when the enemy actually trips on it (cause most times they notice it with me), it's just one taking damage rather than a large number of them. Mines are only good if your grenades really aren't up to the job. Savescum, agro the pack and see where the pack finishes movement. Load up, set a mine in the general vicinity where no one will trip on it. Throw a grenade and have 2 explosions affect the whole pack.

Even burrowers have lots of MP, not as much but a lot none the less. You may be able to kite them with feats and very high movement and boots to give extra movement if we are talking extremes but don't forget that sprint lasts only for 2 turns then kiting is no longer effective. Also you're doing nothing more than running. Effective kitting means runing, killing the enemies as you run and still not get hit by the enemy cause you're superior movement is enough for all of that.

I don't need to max stealth, but i need to keep it very damn close to max otherwise the enemy will spot instantly. Again take in mind, 5 agillity.

I need max hacking and lockpicking. By the time I get to GMS there are 2 locks I can't even open until I get one more level. Watch the enxt episode of my Let's Play and you'll see that as I hit GMS. Other than that I mostly am on pair with the locks but I invest into it every level.

[Elhazzared]

Yup, i like to discuss things so yeah

Build up towards is the same as say, hurt a lot towards it. While I don't have a decent armor it's just taking a lot of damage and just generally making my game start a whole harder than it has to be and also a whole lot more boring because health hypos drop, but not like candy. Since I play economicly, I do go back for healing and quite frankly going back and forth for free healing is boring as hell, all because I don't have a decent armor. As for armor costs. Metal armor is sold at the junkyard only (and I don't go there before it's time to move there). Also you won't even have the money before GMs. As for the cost... I dunno about you, I never saw it cost any less than 32K (without mercantile)... I am not saying it's not possible to get it bellow, but I never saw it that cheap. Besides they require 9 str to use... I'm sure you can use it without the required str but that will give you further penalties which I'm not sure what they even are.

I have missed that then. I had figured out the rocks in the junkyard had an interact cursor way before I even got that quest but I actually never noticed the ones there. i'll have to go check out that cave sometime just to see what's even there... For the most part I tend to ignore it because rocks have target cursor which is just, shot me for ammo waste.

I once made a character on 7 agillity and I didn't even notice any superior movement over the usual 5 agillity I start with. And yes you need to kite something that weak because if you don't have a very good armor that's 5 attacks per spawn and you can be sure that at least one will be a critical so my experience tells me that each spawn alone is enough to chew down 1/4 to 1/3 of life. That's with a 21/4 armor which you usually get a drop or just buy for cheap. But as for the MP you get... It really is't that high and again, it's MP, the idea of kiting is using only the MP without using the AP... Also yes I did notice at least the rathounds will disengage if they can't see you and reach you for a few turns, i'm sure this behavior is shared by at least a few more enemy types if not all.

I'm sorry but not taking lockpicking or hacking is not acceptable at all. You need to be able to open everything, there isn't even a point in playing if you don't. You're losing loot and possibly access to vital areas. Maybe it's not something that will stop you from finishing the game, but it's still vital access to quests or loot. When a game like this is made, it is centered around loot. Get more loot, get more money, get better in order to deal with what comes next. To say no to more loot just feels contraditory to the game... The amount of loot you miss is really a huge amount of money lost, enough to turn the game into a whole new level of pain.

Stealth is mandatory too. You may say that, you only need it at the beggining and it's not needed past GMS. I'll agree to that but quite frankly. Until I started using stealth I was getting owned at every corner because everything deals an insane amount of damage and there is not enough mitigation early on. The only way to really mitigate damage is by not taking it at all which requires everything to die before it hurts you. Stealth allows you to set up the combat in such way, without it you aren't going to get lucky... As for at which level I need it at... Well, for the current content, yes, around level 11 you don't need more of it. I finish all the content at that level or maybe 12. I had a character go to level 13 but not only did I do the burrower hive which I didn't need to (not that I knew at the time that it was a waste of time and resources) I also activly farmed that level 13 in order to get enough persuasion to save cliff's girlfriend.

EDIT: Just made a character to climb through the rocks and see what's thereand just 2 shrooms. It's a nice thing but at the end of thegday ot that useful of a room since there really isn't more loot other than those 2 shrooms... Still, i suppose 2 shrooms for free isn't bad if you have the agillity to climb over the rocks... Dunno how much is needed since the character I tried with had 10 agi... Quite frankly 10 agi 40 MP is totally not worth it. 3 MP per point agi it seams, definitly not a good trade. I could see maybe a use for it if it was 5 points but then again since enemies are based on abillity scores too it would increase their movement too which in turn would render it back to meh. As for dodging, without an extensive test on agi 10 I can say at best 40% chance... Not really great considering it's a skill investment.

[Elhazzared]

If you're saving money for a metalic armor then you hurt more cause you're not going to buy a vest midway if you find a relativelly cheap one like I usually do. It's kinda like, go on the starting armor, or maybe a 20/4 if it drops util you get a metalic one. Also by metalic armor I don't consider vests or riot. I consider straight up metal armor which costs quite a lot. Vests are not stupidly expensive (for the most part), but they don't give a whole lot of protection really, they do give a nice bonus against balistic weapons hich is what makes it worth it but against anything that just goes mellee or uses special attacks like say, acid, then it's just not that great. Maybe it's not really hurting more but hurting longer because it takes you a really long time for metalic armor.

Even on a very high dodge you are still taking 3 to 4 hits per spawn because you chances to dodge are never higher than 40% from what I've perceived and i'm talking on a 10 agillity character... Yes they are weak but they are many. Not only there are quite a few, but burrowers will make more. Sure you can kill the eggs but then you're not attacking the burrowers and sometimes 2 or 3 are laying eggs.

As for other ways of making cash... What ways? killing hoppers? gathering mushrooms? fishing? Even crafting is barelly worth it if you have to buy the parts because you craft since it makes it cheaper and possibly better. but buying the part to craft and sell is not really profit. I am sorry but I don't see options here.

Yes, I can buy a 20/4 leather armor. Cheap? No, that's over half my starting money. It is cheap in the long run but right at the start of the game it's all but cheap. That should in fact be the starting armor if we are to look at how hard enemies actually hit. Also add buying a haxxor, buy a couple bateries for it, buy a few lockipicks. Money could grow on trees because there are no trees in underrail!

[Elhazzared]

Well I don't doubt you, I'm just saying that it's extremelly rare since I never found metal armor bellow 32K. Either that or RNG has a strange sense of humor with me.

Is 40% bad? Well that depends on how we look at it. In the first place metal armor is straight up better than 40% dodge. It allows weaker attacks to be brought down to 0 damage, stronger attacks are just reduced in damage, this not to mention that a metal armor reliably protects you while dodge isn't really reliable. But metal armor (and les assume the very best) requires you 9 STR now if you want the feat to shot more when you go auto, that would already require 7 base so, you're going 2 points above what's needed. To get 40% dodge chance, you need not only agillity 10 (and I'd dare say that currently there is no need for more than 3 even if I tend to keep it at 5) but you need to invest every single level into evasion and dodge which again compared to armor, there is no skill waste... Now in Cliffs, yes you can deal easly with the spawns there, in GMS is not so easy.

Yes, pickpocket can make extra cash, I don't see stealth as being a way to make extra cash unless you mean you have to combine both pickpocket and stealth which then brings up the thing about, 2 skills spent anyway. As for crafting. What drops is widely varied, leather armor is probably the easiest to get but the amount of money you get from those is still limited and you'll need a lot of different high crafting skills in order to put all you get to use, this not to mention that you need to get all the right drops and they are randomised after all. So crafting isn't really reliable as a form of income... You do are right there is an initial investment into lockpicking and hacking, but it's not that big and in fact, just as soon I finish the first area, those items more than paid for themselves already.

[Elhazzared]

True that, if they aren't so close to bump you out quickly out of stealth it does works prety well.