Dev Log #25: Game Economy Changes

[LazyMonk]

I am unsure of how you manage to do this. In my personal experience and from what I've seen from most people it's impossible to craft something better than what is sold in the area unless you've already finished with that area (you already leveled enough to have the skills for those components).

On my next playthrough i am going to note down both the stats of vendor items and the ones i craft adding both the location and my skill levels.

And if you are unsure that crafting should keep you ahead of the curve then I cannot imagine what you think crafting is for.

Oops, i am sorry i clearly misunderstood you there. I thought you meant that your character was going to be ahead of the curve, not your gear.

This not to mention several trips to the same areas to get loot cause I couldn't carry more and even getting slowed down by the loot I carry... One of the major points about this game for me was exactly that it was foregoing all of this busy work which served no other purpose other than frustate a player.

I am not trying to be funny, but that sounds like ocd. Cant you just let that loot go?
Do you really need the edge that selling that extra loot would give you?

[Elhazzared]

It isn't a case of OCD though I know what you mean. I have actually laughed about how people that have OCD sometimes react (yeah not really a nice thing to do but hey, I'm not perfect). It's just that for me a great part of the fun of the game is exactly killing everything and getting the loot, if I don't get it all it starts getting meh for me.

[LazyMonk]

It isn't a case of OCD though I know what you mean. I have actually laughed about how people that have OCD sometimes react (yeah not really a nice thing to do but hey, I'm not perfect). It's just that for me a great part of the fun of the game is exactly killing everything and getting the loot, if I don't get it all it starts getting meh for me.

And what if you recycled the less worthy loot into repair kits, that are much lighter and still useful?

[Elhazzared]

It's just not really worth it and most of the times I don't really use crafting. The way I like to go is full on psionic with a crossbow and some persuasion to get things my way. Stealth for guaranteed first turn as well as lockpicking and hacking to just get everything.

Still how much worth are repair kits now? From what Styg said on the dev notes it seamed like only the incredibly valuable items are worth repairing before selling so I'd probably end up with tons of kits and no where to spend them. Another problem lies with the encuberance which would have me losing lots of movement points (maybe action? not sure if they are affected as well)... I just dislike those two things and it seams it will be just better for me to avoid the game altogether until both of those are either removed or optional.

[Styg]

Crafting should always be keeping you ahead of the curve since you are investing your points into it.

This isn't my intention with crafting.

In most of my playthroughs I have similar experience as LazyMonk. If I take crafting I usually end up crafting gear myself because it's cheaper or I cannot find what I need specifically. Also because the level of merchant gear is in certain range (say, 6-10) and not fix, it's only sometimes that you get higher level gear there than you can craft at that moment.

If I end up not using what I craft it's usually because I manage to kill a high level NPC for their stuff.

We could go around the topic of how you don't like weight limit all day, but it's rather pointless as your reasons for not liking it seem to be mostly irrational and not having anything to do with game economy. But tell me, I'm curious, which RPGs -can- you play? Almost all of them employ some manner of inventory limitation and even if they have fast travel it's usually not convenient enough to quickly haul stuff.

[Ivan Bajlo]

We could go around the topic of how you don't like weight limit all day, but it's rather pointless as your reasons for not liking it seem to be mostly irrational and not having anything to do with game economy. But tell me, I'm curious, which RPGs -can- you play? Almost all of them employ some manner of inventory limitation and even if they have fast travel it's usually not convenient enough to quickly haul stuff.

IIRC Gothic has no weight or inventory limits? Avadon has introduced junk bag for all the junk you want to sell later by single click, inventory has space limit but weight is related only to equipped items. Dungeon Siege has pack mules to carry the loot. 

But for the most time weight and inventory limitations are just annoying unless forcing player to do extra walking if he wants to make little extra cash.

In most RPG you end up with tons of money which you can't spend on anything so instead of balancing economy it would make more sense to add things on which to spend money... for example option to solve quest by using ridiculous amount of cash (i.e. planting a bug for Abrams by bribing assistant or simply buying that thing for Eddy instead of stealing it or hiring someone to get you Armadillo part because your lazy etc.)?

[LazyMonk]

Aah dungeon siege, now there was a bad game.
I finished it just to prove my friends i could do it with a single character instead of using a party.
The start might have been a bit rough but i didn't had to share the XP with any party members and so my character became quite strong very early. I had 3 mules with me. I could buy anything i wanted and, if i remember correctly, money was falling off my pockets, literally.
It was a very boring adventure.

In most RPG you end up with tons of money which you can't spend on anything so instead of balancing economy it would make more sense to add things on which to spend money...

And that's a flaw of those RPGS and the money sinks they make are not a solution to the problem, it just
acknowledges their inability or unwillingness to fix they're game's economy.
Real estate market or playing a successful scavenger that became a millionaire one scrap of metal at a time, should have no place in a harsh post-apocalyptic world.

From my experience most economies break at some point in most of the RPGs i have played.
The latter it happens the better, to me. Its when i am struggling financially that i am having the most fun.
To carefully think what my priorities are, and managing my resources in a smart way to get the most of what i have, should be a constant on this kind of game.

I applaud Styg on his efforts on making this game's economy balanced and fun to any hardcore rpg fan.
So far, i cant disagree with any of the features he added  to balance the underrail's economy.

[Elhazzared]

Well Styg it may not be your intention with crafting, but it certainly is what the vast majority of people will expect of the crafting system, to just keep them ahead of the curve. The money they get will still be enough to get them the stuff they need without having to craft. that is why it's optional after all, you have to be able to keep up with the game on drops and buying if you don't want to craft. So if the game has that balance (and it sure has) then it's just plain better to do it than using crafting which will keep you undergeared by comparison just to safe a little bit of money.

As for games I playd I haven't actually played one that would be without retrictions but they weren't this bad!..

Fallout 2 - had a weight limit but I could carry still a huge amount of equipment and my card still had a trunk to drop a lot of stuff.

Arcanum - Had a space limit but between myself and the party I was with I never ran out of space in any situation.

Sacred 2 - Had a space limit but it was huge to start with and you had an option to auto sell items wherever you were for a tiny bit less than they were worth so you could just sell junk instantly and not bother with a 10% loss cause it was maybe 1 gold per piece.

Now you not only implement a weight system, but accordingly to the notes, one that gradually slows you down when most games just have a how much you can carry but they don't penalise you for taking all the stuff you can carry. In some cases you have the option to cary over the weight limit for an encubered state which only had the inconvinience of not being able to run which in no way affected combat and the trade off moving slower was carrying even more stuff when the limit is usually already high anyway. In no RPG have I ever had a system where merchants didn't bought all my stuff and made me go around for a very long time to try to sell everything.

The problem is that you are applying several restrictions for no reason whatsoever. This does not stops the player from getting everything or selling everything. You are just making sure that the players stop having fun when doing so and if players don't have fun then I'm sure they will just stop playing. It certainly is what I'd do and that is why I'm not trying the current update... this isn't something irrational, you are adding mechanics which many people already expressed not liking and felt they only add to detriment of the fun of playing the game. Don't forget a game has things that make sense only in a game but not in real life because at the end of the day, it is a game. So if something wouldn't make sense in real life, like a guy carrying 1000 KG of stuff on his back, it makes sense in a game because frankly going back and forth is wasted time that the player will do for that extra coin but will degrade his experience through boredom. Even worse if the merchants don't buy everything.

[LazyMonk]

Now you not only implement a weight system, but accordingly to the notes, one that gradually slows you down when most games just have a how much you can carry but they don't penalise you for taking all the stuff you can carry.

This does not happen, but sounds really cool.
Styg could you implement the weight system like Elhazzared described, please?

What does happen is something like this. Imagine your max weight limit is say 150. If you are carrying 149 your encumbrance penalty is ZERO. It only starts at above 150. Then you will become lightly encumbered, and if you keep grabbing stuff, at some point (i don't know when yet) you are probably to become heavily encumbered.
I imagine, i haven't tried to reach that point.

The problem is that you are applying several restrictions for no reason whatsoever.

He does have a reason, and a damn good one. To keep the game's economy balanced and entertaining.

you are adding mechanics which many people already expressed not liking and felt they only add to detriment of the fun of playing the game.

I am having more fun now than ever with the game.
Fun is a subjective thing and i am glad Styg is making a game that pleases the more old school and/or the hardcore crowd, that has been starving for a decade.

[Styg]

@LazyMonk That's how it works already. What Elhazzared is complaining about, I imagine, is that it has combat penalties as well.

@Elhazzared
Actually, as far as I can tell most people are ok with the new system and are happily playing the game, so don't assume you speak for everyone or most of them. There are complaints here and there and there always will be. I cannot please everyone, nor do I want to.

[Ivan Bajlo]

Real estate market or playing a successful scavenger that became a millionaire one scrap of metal at a time, should have no place in a harsh post-apocalyptic world.

So you saying hard work shouldn't pay off? That not really role playing is it? 

I applaud Styg on his efforts on making this game's economy balanced and fun to any hardcore rpg fan.
So far, i cant disagree with any of the features he added  to balance the underrail's economy.

Well I did suggest on the first page option of taking over some merchant business through side quest and using him to sale your loot bit by bit over a (long) period of time instead of forcing player to walk around in order to sell that cool automatic rifle he found. New system is fun but after a while all that walking from merchant to merchant to check which one is buying firearms and has enough cash or some cool items worth bartering gets a bit boring, also weight has negative impact on bartering since getting heavy item like metal plates with weight 20 can seriously slow you down if you already have some other heavy components or just simply have heavy gear so you would first need to go to your room unload armor, weapons, ammo and all other non relevant items and then visit merchant so you can buy heavier stuff from merchant and still be able to move back to your room. 

[Ivan Bajlo]

What does happen is something like this. Imagine your max weight limit is say 150. If you are carrying 149 your encumbrance penalty is ZERO. It only starts at above 150. Then you will become lightly encumbered, and if you keep grabbing stuff, at some point (i don't know when yet) you are probably to become heavily encumbered.

First 20-30 you are just overweight and mover more slowly and have less action points and for example you can no longer use special action with sniper rifle, after that you go into red and can barely move and if you add even more you no longer cannot move at all.

I imagine, i haven't tried to reach that point.

Depends on the loot you encounter, I avoid sledgehammers like plague (or just convert them into scrap to make repair kits) since there wight is 20+ and I even found some type of boots which also get weight 20+ despite being nothing special and since I have yet to discover merchant which buys boots I leave them or scrap them also, animal parts are also pretty heavy and internal organs are stackable so you can get insane weight fast! Not to mention ammo if you forget to store or sell excess ammo. I fear once game gets bigger weight system might also become much bigger annoyance since much more people will be closer to the carrying limits and especially since we won't have powered armor and similar things to help with weight issues.

[Elhazzared]

@Styg - Most people bear with it, they don't like it. A few like it and a few will dislike it enough not to play. But I am quite sure that if you were to ask every individual player if they like the weight system and merchants not buying everything, most will say that they don't like it... Not wanting to please everyone is something I can get behind, after all this is your game and at the end of the day it should be done in a way it pleases you but I belive all these restrictions are just plain bad for the game overall. People like difficulty to come from the challanges they face. How they deal with a situation, be it through diplomacy, threatning, killing, stealling. Just to give a few examples. Inventory management is not fun in any game and while I don't doubt this new economy system brought a lot of good things since prices are better, items drop with (possibly) more health, you don't have to repair everything as only a few items are worth repairing. But the weight restrictions along with merchants not buying everything is going to mean for many players. Go into a place. Do 1/3 of it, go back spend 20 minutes trying to sell the loot. Go back to the mission and get another 1/3 of the loot. I'm quite sure low str characters will face such problems because not only they have a low limit of no encuberance, but because there is all sort of items that they always carry with them to deal with certain situation... No one fully empties the inventory after all.

[LazyMonk]

So you saying hard work shouldn't pay off?

No, that was not what i was saying.

That not really role playing is it?

As hard as defining what roleplaying is in computer games, i can assure you that being able to own a
stronghold or any other money sinks are not part of it. The lack of these features does not hinder any roleplaying game.

New system is fun but after a while all that walking from merchant to merchant to check which one is buying firearms and has enough cash or some cool items worth bartering gets a bit boring

That does sound boring. Why do you do it? I haven't been short in cash in my current playthrough yet, and i have all the items i want
and then some just by selling a couple of firearms and some other odd item that i brought from my last quest.

also weight has negative impact on bartering since getting heavy item like metal plates with weight 20 can seriously slow you down if you already have some other heavy components

Weight has indeed a negative impact on bartering, as it should. Why do you think it was added in the first place? And you should not be strolling with items as heavy as metal plates. Unless you are going to craft something with them, i suggest you just leave them be. Or not, since i am traveling, right now, with a tungsten plate in my pocket and it hasn't affected my looting habits.

so you would first need to go to your room unload armor, weapons, ammo and all other non relevant items and then visit merchant so you can buy heavier stuff from merchant and still be able to move back to your room.

I have never needed to do any of that. But indeed i agree, as it sounds really boring.
Are you collecting heavy items in your room?

EDIT, to avoid double posting

First 20-30 you are just overweight and mover more slowly and have less action points and for example you can no longer use special action with sniper rifle, after that you go into red and can barely move and if you add even more you no longer cannot move at all.

Thanks for the information.

Depends on the loot you encounter, I avoid sledgehammers like plague (or just convert them into scrap to make repair kits) since there wight is 20+

That's what you should do. I believe that's exactly the kind of behavior Styg wanted to promote.

especially since we won't have powered armor

We have no idea yet how powered armor is going to turn out, so that is just speculation.
Styg on power armor:

So in short, don't expect a fallout style power armor to be introduced. However, what I will probably add is an ability to add certain powered components to heavy armors (metal armor and possibly other future types of heavy armor) during crafting that might augment some of your abilities or provide additional armor effects while powered.

You can read it all here:
http://underrail.com/forums/index.php?topic=355.msg1719#msg1719

[Ivan Bajlo]

That does sound boring. Why do you do it? I haven't been short in cash in my current playthrough yet, and i have all the items i want
and then some just by selling a couple of firearms and some other odd item that i brought from my last quest.

Components come in various type of quality so I'm trying to get best one possible to see what kind of item I can craft from it, this can cost a lot of cash.

Weight has indeed a negative impact on bartering, as it should. Why do you think it was added in the first place? And you should not be strolling with items as heavy as metal plates. Unless you are going to craft something with them, i suggest you just leave them be. Or not, since i am traveling, right now, with a tungsten plate in my pocket and it hasn't affected my looting habits.

I try keep best possible component of each I find/buy and sell or craft something with lower quality ones, I guess I'm hoping of discovering some new dynamically crafted item which was added with which I can replace my existing gear.

Are you collecting heavy items in your room?

One closet for ammo, one for consumables, one shelf for cool items which I want to test, one box for components... yes I'm true pack rat, at lest until I get kicked out of SGS for storing few tons of TNT in my room before it accidentally exploded taking out most of the base.