Underrail Forum
Underrail => Builds => Topic started by: ShoggothWhisperer on November 01, 2023, 12:00:05 am
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Intro
Hey everybody, ShoggothWhisper here. I had the privilege of beta testing this DLC over the last few weeks, and I wanted to share some build advice so people can plan out their builds. I really liked this DLC in general and all of the new content introduced, but it is some of the hardest content in the game by a wide margin, and if you stroll in unprepared you will be in for a wild ride. This guide is intended for Dominating difficulty, but the information inside is relevant for lower difficulties as well. Minor spoilers inside, so consider yourself warned.
How much damage should my build deal?
Think about the strongest common enemy in Expedition. Odds are, you think of the Strongman, right? Those guys have 670 hp on dominating and 70% mechanical resistance, so, not accounting for DT, you’ll need to deal ~2333 mechanical damage in order to kill one. Pretty tanky, right? Well, these new enemies are even more durable. The most common grunt has 720 hp, 40% mechanical resistance, a ~350 capacity shield, and usually has a silly little buff that grants a 40% reduction to all damage. He may or may not also have the conditioning feat, but even if he doesn’t you’ll still need to deal ~2350 mechanical damage to kill one. These guys also have 15% heat resistance, 35% energy resistance, and 50% bio resistance from their armor, so keep that in mind. They spawn in packs of 6 guys on Dominating, and if you don’t kill them fast enough additional reinforcements will arrive. The best damage types to use against them are Heat, Cold, Acid, and Electricity, so the best weapons to use against these guys are Hammers, Chem Pistols, Grenade Launchers, LMGs, Miniguns, and TC/MT psionics.
How do I defend against these new enemies?
The new enemies primarily use firearms, energy pistols, and grenades, and offensively could be considered stronger and more interesting versions of the Muties at the Waterway dungeon. The silly little buff that grants 40% damage reduction also grants a 40% increase to all combat skills and a 40% reduction to weapon AP cost, so these goofballs hit harder, better, faster, and stronger than anything else you’ve faced thus far. They are also incredibly fast, having what feels like a base 30MP and the sprint feat, so you can’t really hide behind cover to protect yourself. On top of all that, they have 26 initiative, which is only 3 less than Carnifex. I recommend a Sturdy Kevlar Tac Vest with a super steel sheet, or Sturdy TiChrome/Super Steel metal armor if you can meet the Str requirement. If you don’t have high evasion, I also recommend blast tabis and a blast balaclava since the grenade launcher enemies are extremely dangerous. I don’t recommend going over 50% armor penalty, since there are some TC enemies that can cook you with the classic MB+ Bilocation combo.
Conclusion
This DLC will push you to your absolute limits when it comes to building and crafting. It’s recommended that you start this DLC at level 20, but I actually recommend you wait until level 26 and have all of your best gear crafted/obtained. There's a new encounter that’s harder than the Quad Nagas fight, and a secret version of that fight that’s even harder. I’ve only seen people beat the normal version with Stasis abuse, and as far as I’m aware nobody in the beta test was able to beat the secret version. Best of luck to everyone in the new DLC, I can’t wait to see what builds people cook up with the new content.
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Interesting.
What would be your estimate for chances to beat that secret encounter with a level 15 sniper / energy pistol build on Dominating? Note, level 15 only because intentionally not levelling up any higher - gear and supplies all top notch, DC and Expedition fully completed, etc.
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Interesting.
What would be your estimate for chances to beat that secret encounter with a level 15 sniper / energy pistol build on Dominating? Note, level 15 only because intentionally not levelling up any higher - gear and supplies all top notch, DC and Expedition fully completed, etc.
Probably a 0% chance.
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I had a gut feeling you'd say 0%, yep.
I love me a challenge. It'd sure take a fairly long while even if possible, ofc. You probably know Tchort was beaten with at least as low as level 6 character on Dominating, which gives some perspective on what can be done given sufficient effort. So, we'll see about that 0%... :)
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wow thx, looks terrifying,
Do they also all have thick skull or will i be able to use my favorite cut throat build ?
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Commandos on the same level as carnifex? That's absolutely nuts. Gonna have so much fun getting turned to swiss cheese, vaporized and/or fragged to oblivion.
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wow thx, looks terrifying,
Do they also all have thick skull or will i be able to use my favorite cut throat build ?
The grunts don’t have thick skull, but the support unit does.
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I had a gut feeling you'd say 0%, yep.
I love me a challenge. It'd sure take a fairly long while even if possible, ofc. You probably know Tchort was beaten with at least as low as level 6 character on Dominating, which gives some perspective on what can be done given sufficient effort. So, we'll see about that 0%... :)
This isn’t like Tchort, with Tchort you can blow up the tanks with stealth and TNT, then slowly whittle him down and retreat to the safe room when necessary. This is 24 elite enemies who can each fire off a ~500 damage Telekinetic punch, among other abilities. Each one has 860 hp and a ~350 shield, giving an effective hp of ~29040, not accounting for resistances. They come at you from all sides and automatically track your location even when stealthed. The arena itself has a huge portion inaccessible to the player until the encounter starts, so you can’t really preemptively set traps, and the terrain is constantly shifting so it’s difficult to break line of sight. Something like a Master Demo belt Crit grenade launcher build could probably beat it, but I’m sure that the vast majority of builds don’t have a chance.
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Tchort is single target 8k health with regen, while these are multiple targets meaning AoE will help much (grenades, electro pistol aimed shot, thermodynamic destabilization, etc). Retreating to safe room in Tchort fight is not an option for a lvl 6 character, 'cause then there won't be a way to get back to Tchort through all the minions, so it must be done in one go. Also, Tchort does increasing "everywhere" damage, which for level 6 character is a serious threat in a prolonged fight. Last but definitely not least, level 6 is massively less capable than level 15 - the latter can get crafting skils all the way to 180sh with high Int, which for said sniper / energy pistol build means having all the highest possible crit multiplier energy pistols, all the highest base damage sniper rifles, and powerful feats to further multiply doable damage. Thus "on paper" it still seems a good argument - i mean hoping to see a level 15 beat this new place knowing a level 6 can do Tchort. How it'll be in practice - again, "we'll see", of course.
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They come at you from all sides and automatically track your location even when stealthed. The arena itself has a huge portion inaccessible to the player until the encounter starts, so you can’t really preemptively set traps, and the terrain is constantly shifting so it’s difficult to break line of sight. Something like a Master Demo belt Crit grenade launcher build could probably beat it, but I’m sure that the vast majority of builds don’t have a chance.
Ok, quickly went to the place in Normal, lvl 15 character, to see what's what - and instantly found something the above advice fails to account for: the staple Interloper + Ninja Tabis + Rathound Regalia work very well, allowing to remain hidden while moving faster than enemies do. Can get a bit tricky sneaking out of the center at the start in Dominating (it ain't in Normal), but that's what a good cloaking device and consumables will be for.
Then it's just going around the perimeter of the area, taking out enemies one by one, reentering stealth by using vanishing powder grenades or even simply running away (following the outer wall) for a few turns. Looks pretty trivial.
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Any advice for a character build that can use the new weapons well? Mostly wondering about Str requirements, and how much I should train in side weapons. Any need for Guns for feats?
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Any advice for a character build that can use the new weapons well? Mostly wondering about Str requirements, and how much I should train in side weapons. Any need for Guns for feats?
From what little I've seen so far, strength and perception are essential for getting the most out of LMGs and miniguns. Especially strength for miniguns. And both draw from the brand new "Heavy Guns" skill. Grenade launchers benefit from a high guns skill and only require a moderate strength investment (about the same as assault rifles).
The heavy guns skill and guns skill both seem to piggyback off of each other quite nicely so you don't necessarily have to pick one and disregard the other if you don't want to.
For side weapons; sledgehammers, assault rifles, and/or grenade launchers seem to pair very well with heavy weapons.
As for new feats, only grenade launcher feats require any real investment in the guns skill. Several existing feats such as "Concentrated fire" have been reworked to accomodate heavy weapons and their skill requirements have been reworked as well.
Personally, I'd go for a tanky "tin can" type build. I can't really get much more specific than that because the character builder (as of writing this) hasn't yet been updated for Heavy Duty.
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I'm thinking of running 10 str, 3 dex/agi, 6 con, 8 per, 5 will, 5 int. So far for skills I got Heavy Guns, Melee, Hacking, Mechanics, Tailoring, TM, Intimidation. Gonna have to do a dummy playthrough to figure this out I suppose, maybe I'm spreading myself too thin. Or maybe I should pick up Psychokinesis. Maybe drop melee? Who knows
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I could drop melee and go versatility I suppose
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I'm thinking of running 10 str, 3 dex/agi, 6 con, 8 per, 5 will, 5 int. So far for skills I got Heavy Guns, Melee, Hacking, Mechanics, Tailoring, TM, Intimidation. Gonna have to do a dummy playthrough to figure this out I suppose, maybe I'm spreading myself too thin. Or maybe I should pick up Psychokinesis. Maybe drop melee? Who knows
That's a good starting point, I'd first go to 11 str for brute aim then sink the rest of the ability score increases into perception. You could also go 3 con instead of 6 con, on Hard or Dominating difficulty you only lose out on 120 hp at max level, which you can mitigate with a high quality sturdy vest. I'd say gunners high is only worth it if you plan on using a stoicism damage reduction build, otherwise you're normally either above the hp threshold or dead. Crafting requirements can go up to 200+ mechanics for high end miniguns, so I recommend 7 int if you plan on crafting them, and you could sink that final remaining stat point into more per.
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One little thing i just checked: the new merchant ("just don't call me Rag" guy) seem to have no Mercantile check for extra goods - just talked with him a few times while having 201 effective Mercantile skill, nope, no extra goods to unlock.
Sad panda.
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I think a decent grenade launcher build could be the following stats:
STR: 6 (required to wield GLs)
DEX: 3 (standard)
AGI: 7 (see below)
CON: 5 (for feat)
PER: 9 (standard)
WILL: 3 (standard)
INT: 7 (for crafting/feats)
what bothers me is mostly the agi; don't know how much would be best. If enough agi+chems would allow an additional shot, that would be ideal.. but it seems like high agi is good for stealth feats(blind-side+interloper) and evasion. But even then high evasion isn't ideal? because I actually want to get hit by my own grenades, dominating difficulty makes it almost useless, and seems like wearing heavier armor might be more ideal later on that can make your evasion score almost useless to dump points in. Blast cloth also supplements too.
Build doesn't seem too starved for feats as well. Like Paranoia+Recklessness is pretty decent along with sprint and the crafting feats.
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I was thinking about making a grenade launcher build.
It's 25 AP for 25mm and 35 AP for 40mm, so I need lots of AP or being tanky enough. I choose agility route. Here's my build except It will have practiced parabola, shell shock and tricky trajectory on 6th, 12th and 14th levels respectivly: https://underrail.info/build/?HgcDCgMPAwXCoAAAAMKgwqBQeAAAAHgPNx5aAAAARgDCglorJDlEGXhBR317woXChydLMcK1wqQP4qeXA9--
I don't need dex, will and con, so I dumped them
7 STR for bigger mags, more space for ammo, and intimidation
10 AGI for blitz and dodge/evasion
5 INT for crafting and some feats
Rest are spent inot PER
Feats:
1)Nimble for more dodge/evasion and MP
1)Sprint for blitz combo out of stealth.
2)Yell for decresing enemy accuracy and damage
4)Hit and run for breaking Los after using blitz
6)Practiced parabola for negating move and shoot penalty
8)Uncanny dodge because I couldn't take anything more useful, plus anti crawler measure, can be changed for pack rathound if needed
10)Blitz for more shooting, woul be comboed with sprint, adrenaline and TM. Spec points into more AP
12)Shellshock for decresing enemies accuracy, damage and evasion. Probably put some spec points here if they'll give good enough numbers
14)tricky trajectory for more damage and less evasion for enemies. Probably put some spec points here if they'll give good enough numbers
16)Blindsiding for more damage
18)PTA for more AP and longer TM
20)Pack rathound for DC
22)Critical power for powerful crits
24)Recklesness for more crits. Some spec points could be put here
26)Increased perception for more gun. Could be swapped for more agility
28)Scrutinous for more crits
30)Evasive maneuvers for some late game bosses, helps with surviving after exiting stasis. Can be changed for literally anything else
Equipment:
Siphoner armor with black cloth and siphoner tabis tabis, balaclava or psi headset.
40mm and 25mm GLs.
For grenades I could sacrifice some intimidation points for throwing. Would use only emp, flashbangs and stingball grenades.
Will this build work? Also what kind of attachments can be used for grenade launchers beyond bipod and airburst scope? Rapid reloader would be very useful.
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You should also mention that they are almost blind (at least on normal) and you can do dlc with no combat at all.
I done it with no fighting at all with 86 stealth.
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That's a good starting point, I'd first go to 11 str for brute aim then sink the rest of the ability score increases into perception. [...]
Actually, if I'm going versatility LMG/Minigun + Sledgehammer, I should probably put only 80 points in Heavy Guns, fully invest in Melee, and keep Perception at 8 for Concentrated Fire, and max Strength instead. Heavy Guns would probably still be subpar, but I'm wondering if it wouldn't be sufficient. It's just that I can't have both the Command Belt and a lifting belt
You're right about the Con though, gonna redo this char after playing a bit in Depot A
EDIT: I should probably check how much skill I need to equip endgame heavy guns too. LMG seem to have no skill requirements, but miniguns do. Not sure if intended
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That's a good starting point, I'd first go to 11 str for brute aim then sink the rest of the ability score increases into perception. [...]
Actually, if I'm going versatility LMG/Minigun + Sledgehammer, I should probably put only 80 points in Heavy Guns, fully invest in Melee, and keep Perception at 8 for Concentrated Fire, and max Strength instead. Heavy Guns would probably still be subpar, but I'm wondering if it wouldn't be sufficient. It's just that I can't have both the Command Belt and a lifting belt
You're right about the Con though, gonna redo this char after playing a bit in Depot A
It's better to keep perception at 6, only concentrated fire and tricky trajectory require 8 perception, those feats are good, but you're playing a CON build, so damage isn't your first priority anyway. I think that having 10 constitution is more important for hp, conditioning and thick skull.
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Yeah I suppose Tricky Trajectory is only useful for the Fusion Cannon... which might be good? I have no idea where it is and what its stats are.
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Yeah I suppose Tricky Trajectory is only useful for the Fusion Cannon... which might be good? I have no idea where it is and what its stats are.
It's a 40 50 AP single fire, AoE weapon which does 100-129 base electric and 100-129 base energy damage per shot to an area (it has "ground attack" mode). Ammo is battery packs, and it drains itself in just 5 shots. Str 8, 130 skill requirements. It's definitely good against all the high mechanical resistance enemies, but soft targets - which is the most of enemies - something with lower AP cost and/or larger AoE (say, a minigun) will definitely be better.
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wow thx, looks terrifying,
Do they also all have thick skull or will i be able to use my favorite cut throat build ?
The grunts don’t have thick skull, but the support unit does.
Thx !
I was afraid when you compared them to strongmen but my cut throat pk build works quite well so far, glad i have more ennemies to slice :)
Those guys are really fun to fight, really great dlc
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I made the mistake of putting a compensator on a ratchet which reduced the spread way more than i expected. A word of advice is to put one of those on an LMG that you intend to use as a single target weapon otherwise you will be wasting ammo expecting to share some pain with a group of foes
That is something that should be improved in future installments, more detailed information on weapons and attacks
Burst is a total black box and the inability to have a good idea where i am putting hundreds of charons down the firing line cripples the heavy weapons
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I made the mistake of putting a compensator on a ratchet which reduced the spread way more than i expected. A word of advice is to put one of those on an LMG that you intend to use as a single target weapon otherwise you will be wasting ammo expecting to share some pain with a group of foes
That is something that should be improved in future installments, more detailed information on weapons and attacks
Burst is a total black box and the inability to have a good idea where i am putting hundreds of charons down the firing line cripples the heavy weapons
Spread angle is shown in the description for LMG and miniguns, just between Base AP and Range. This can be determined before crafting, before going to go for a field test. I agree there could be more emphasis on which stats are being affected by a component somehow
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It's a 40 50 AP single fire, AoE weapon which does 100-129 base electric and 100-129 base energy damage per shot to an area
It's also the only unique weapon that you have to put together yourself, meaning that depending on the quality of the components you use to assemble it, it may perform better or worse than the example you gave or the one that the wiki gives.
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It's a 40 50 AP single fire, AoE weapon which does 100-129 base electric and 100-129 base energy damage per shot to an area
It's also the only unique weapon that you have to put together yourself, meaning that depending on the quality of the components you use to assemble it, it may perform better or worse than the example you gave or the one that the wiki gives.
You _can_ put it together yourself, but you don't have to do it. Further, you can't learn the blueprints required to craft it if you got no Disassemble feat - and i recon, most builds don't take Disassemble. So even to craft it - you gotta find a Fusion Cannon (ready to be used weapon) 1st, anyway. Otherwise, there would nothing to disassemble to learn the blueprints from.
Damage number i gave above are from a Fusion Cannon i found in my 1st going, wiki lists a bit different damage numbers, so it may be that Fusion Cannon can spawn with a bit varying damage range / quality.
And yes, if one goes to craft it, then it can be much different damage / durability / energy capacity. I've crafted one with 183 plasma core and 159 emitter, which in practice pretty much the best possible to get (with a lot of shopping), unless supremely lucky to find all the fine needed electronic components significantly above quality 160 in DC, which is on the screenshot.
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I've recently finished the DLC story and now am curious, what is the new encounter which is harder than 4 Naga and unbeatable with it's secret version?
Is it tied to a difficulty? So far I haven't found it, maybe I've missed it. Judging from what I've seen, it doesn't look like part of the ending to the DLC (both versions). Same for the return journey. Nor is it the new roaming gang.
In the Compound, only one place resembles a training killhouse arena, which may fit the description, as there is zero cover and it's the only place Stasis makes sense. It's where you can call in a certain amount of enemies, but I've killed Cognator before I got to it, so when I activated the console, zero enemies appeared. I did play on Easy and speedran the DLC, so that may be a factor also.
I don't mind the spoilers if it's sent into PMs.
As for builds, I am testing a Jin-Roh build. Refurbished MG3-42 with 15 bullet burst, Super Steel + Seeker NVG, Strafe to compensate for move and shoot penalty, armor slope + nimble + body training for a 49% armor penalty (can add a heavy helmet for 69% :D) and 7 Con for Juggernaut, Fast Metabolism + Gunner's High, topped it off with Ambush (the icon is very similar to a scene in the movie) and the synergy with mobile tincan works well.
Specialization: Maxed out Concentrated Fire, Mag Dump and last 3 points into Full Auto.
So far, the most fun I've had, chews through 7.62 like a kid through candy, but it's totally worth it. When I finish it, will export for a DOM test run, if I like the results, might further optimize it for square one DOM, like swapping out Strafe + Fast Metabolism + Gunner's High for Conditioning + Stoicism by dumping 5 Dex for 7 Will with Veteran Feat, for extra tankiness. Although Gunner's High is actually good on DOM, since it heals more than a bandage, does so during and after combat and can stack with Regen Mixture and Regen Vest.
The biggest downsides I was able to find were Coil Spiders, Acid, GL, W2C, 6p Shell Shotgun and surprisingly Native's sword users with Onslaught. Even on easy with 1000 hp I got one-two turn killed. Of course TC users are the archenemies and first to die, luckily 15 bullet bursts don't give a **** about their projections. Second weapon are the new unique GLs, all of them are amazing, although Punisher least of all. Of course I also dipped into traps for detection and having the bare minimum for MK3 and MK5 mines, didn't need on Easy, but most certainly will on other difficulties.
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I've recently finished the DLC story and now am curious, what is the new encounter which is harder than 4 Naga and unbeatable with it's secret version?
Is it tied to a difficulty? So far I haven't found it, maybe I've missed it. Judging from what I've seen, it doesn't look like part of the ending to the DLC (both versions). Same for the return journey. Nor is it the new roaming gang.
In the Compound, only one place resembles a training killhouse arena, which may fit the description, as there is zero cover and it's the only place Stasis makes sense. It's where you can call in a certain amount of enemies, but I've killed Cognator before I got to it, so when I activated the console, zero enemies appeared. I did play on Easy and speedran the DLC, so that may be a factor also.
Yeah, it’s the training room, when activating the console you’ll get 3-4 squads of soldiers depending on the options chosen, activating all quadrants spawns 4 squads of 6 soldiers which include 2 intercessors and 3 technomedics. If you kill all the soldiers in the compound (amount depends on difficulty) they won’t spawn. If you do it before killing cognator all of the soldiers will have 4 stacks of the buff. The secret version is if you kill too many patrols, where all of the enemies in the encounter are replaced with psychophracts, who have extremely high damage psi abilities.
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Yeah, it’s the training room, when activating the console you’ll get 3-4 squads of soldiers depending on the options chosen, activating all quadrants spawns 4 squads of 6 soldiers which include 2 intercessors and 3 technomedics. If you kill all the soldiers in the compound (amount depends on difficulty) they won’t spawn. If you do it before killing cognator all of the soldiers will have 4 stacks of the buff. The secret version is if you kill too many patrols, where all of the enemies in the encounter are replaced with psychophracts, who have extremely high damage psi abilities.
Now that's interesting!
In my 2nd going through the Heavy Duty, i took the time to wipe out all the patrols before the training-sesson map (but not anything "beyond" it, if to count maps towards the Cognator). Then i went into the training-session map and activated the encounter, activating all quadrants. After defeating all 4 packs, i then went forward, into maps closer to Cognator's room - and what i encountered is that all the patrols there became psychophracts, BUT the few stationary enemeis in one of following maps - remained varied-class soldiers. And there were quite a lot of such all-psychophract patrols in there, too.
And after i wiped all the psychophract patrols there - i think there were maybe 8 or more - the paths which these patrols used to walk through still remained patrolled, but merely by a single robot (randomly one of two possible kinds), and these single-robot patrols were seemingly endless: i wiped some 30+ of these, but they kept and kept coming. Walked through many maps back and forth, but these lone robots still kept coming.
If all this is somehow related to some "secret encounter", though - then what's the point? I mean, is there any reward for dealing - this or that way - with a crapton of these psychophracts? I didn't find any of the sort...
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By the way, where's the DLC map? All I see is "unknown".